Samsung D7000 & D8000 Settings/Calibration Thread - Page 45 - AVS Forum
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post #1321 of 3305 Old 10-19-2011, 01:53 PM
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Yea the black outside the bars is fine I take it down till( the greenies)disappear its the bars that have them except instead of the greenies the bars have more of red/blue/green combo. Cant get rid of them , so iwasnt sure if it was the tv or because the greyscale isnt calibrated correctly using the right tools. Is there a reason why on my b450 the bars are clean just like the black on the leftside and on the d6500 its not, just curious. Same with dithering I get more on this one the older one, maybe size? I wanted to say great work on finding out how to unlock the D series service menu. Too bad we cant tell samsung you have a bug in your sm, the 00000 doesn't open the advanced menu, to fix it lol.

Zoyd or Jano666 can I get into the tdm if I hook up my pc to the tv using the regular monitor cable or do you need a special cable for it.
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post #1322 of 3305 Old 10-19-2011, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanpol View Post

Zoyd or Jano666 can I get into the tdm if I hook up my pc to the tv using the regular monitor cable or do you need a special cable for it.

Ex-Link cable @ SamyGo Wiki

It's a low power (3.3V) serial connection. You need an adapter (either an USB->TTL or a 10V->3.3V serial adapter) and connect the wires to either a 3.5 jack or the VGA connector on your TV (it depends on the display model).

I used a Nokia CA-42 cable (more precisely I received a chinese replica which caused me some troubles with the drivers but I finally got it work).


But the more time I spend with it, the more I think it's useless for me.
I tried to calibrate my TV on different ways using the new possibilities but I couldn't really achieve any better results. I improve one thing and break two others.

I am currently struggling with a small color clipping and some interaction between the 10p gray-scale controls.
I think I will simply revert every changes and restore my old calibration settings.

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post #1323 of 3305 Old 10-19-2011, 02:51 PM
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Don't sell yourself short Janos666 , It is still awesome, yes I did say awesome What you a zoyd have been able to figure out. Now we can have the night/day cal and movie modes with a different custom colorspace and also like in the previous years models we can now turn on wbmovie so the default mode will now be movie instead of dynamic. With you movie mode settings set as default. Now I really wish I had the tools to try to do a real calibration. So I say thank you thank you thank you.

Hey so what I'm experiencing with the tv is normal then?
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post #1324 of 3305 Old 10-19-2011, 03:41 PM
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Save your thanks to the SamyGo members, I just asked them to give me the serial console unlock codes.

Unfortunately not every Movie mode settings can be changed permanently. The default color tone is always Warm2, HDMI Black always returns to Low, etc.
But yes, you can make some permanent changes to make your life easer.
On the other hand, you can also make it more difficult. I feel like I wasted this whole day for nothing. My main goal was to unlock the Cal-Day/Night on my EU model but seems impossible possible (not even from the TDM). And I couldn't really improve my calibration.


You say the non-functional "0000" trick is a bug? Imagine that every single TDM items which aren't present in the "middle-level" Service Menu (after you hit Factory and 3Speed) miss their names in the Top Debug Menu. I have to deal with sub-menus and settings like:
[5] ...
[6] ...


I don't think they were intended to be used by anybody (not even Samsung technicians).

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post #1325 of 3305 Old 10-19-2011, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanpol View Post

Is there a reason why on my b450 the bars are clean just like the black on the leftside and on the d6500 its not, just curious.

Plasmas will always have to dither the 1st couple of bars so my guess is your b450 couldn't display the low levels properly due to lower bit level VP processing.

@janos666

How did you get the ADC adjustments to "stick". I'm trying to clip the input at level 240 and I can see it clipping in the pattern but when I reboot the TV it's back to normal.
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post #1326 of 3305 Old 10-19-2011, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

How did you get the ADC adjustments to "stick". I'm trying to clip the input at level 240 and I can see it clipping in the pattern but when I reboot the TV it's back to normal.

Every time I want to check the result of the adjustment, I switch between Movie and Standard mode or adjust the Brightness up and down by one. It makes the settings effective, otherwise you stuck in the intermediate mode which is triggered when you start to adjust any of those values.

Try this:

Start from 0,0,0,0,0,0

Set you Brightness and Contrast to default and choose your Gamma according to your target.

Display any image with reference white and reference black on it.

Increase one of the L values until black just remains black (you may want to use the up100). Copy this for the other two L values and check if black is still black without any amount of color noise.

Increase one of the H values until black just remains black (yes, black again) and copy the value.

And finally switch between Standard and Movie.

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post #1327 of 3305 Old 10-19-2011, 05:31 PM
 
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Zoyd. If you use large apl and crank contrast, does the abl kick in even on those patterns. Just wondering how you can tell when it kicks in, other than the gamma drop off at high ire when checking with a meter.
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post #1328 of 3305 Old 10-19-2011, 05:57 PM
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Easy to tell if ABL limits your brightness on your actual pattern: just compare the luminance measurements of IRE100 with the Small APL measurement.

I can't use Large APL because I want ~90-100 cd/m^2 peak luminance but ABL kicks in with the Large APL patterns with this setup.

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Did not think of that. I knew the gamma line drop was a good sign.
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post #1330 of 3305 Old 10-19-2011, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

Easy to tell if ABL limits your brightness on your actual pattern: just compare the luminance measurements of IRE100 with the Small APL measurement.

I can't use Large APL because I want ~90-100 cd/m^2 peak luminance but ABL kicks in with the Large APL patterns with this setup.

I don't see a measured difference between large and small APL peak white until 116 cd/m^2 (34 ftL).

Thanks for the tips on ADC settings! Changing contrast +/- 1 locked in the settings and I ended up just setting each variable with "Set SpecialItem Data" to avoid the up/down stuff. So I've mapped levels up to 240 to the full ADC range, I'll see if I can tell any difference.
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post #1331 of 3305 Old 10-20-2011, 08:49 AM
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So setting the top of the ADC range to level 240 got me thinking about the black levels. Usually you have to either compromise gamma or throw away the 1st few levels of information when you set brightness depending on what your mll is. If I want to get a perfectly flat gamma down to my display mll I would set the first flashing bar on the AVSHD test disk to video level 23 based on the attached calculation for peak white = 100 cd/m^2, gamma = 2.3, mll = 0.012 ftL. But suppose I don't like throwing away the video information contained in levels 17-22? I can now set the zero point of the ADC to correspond to level 23 instead of 16, effectively squeezing all the available video levels into the available display range and maintain the proper near black gamma. Will try this out tonight.
LL
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post #1332 of 3305 Old 10-20-2011, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

.

If anyone wants a few more calibrated D7000 settings, let me know.

Larry

I just received My 59D7000 so I would like some more settings,preferably for a room with 2 Windows..

Thanks
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post #1333 of 3305 Old 10-20-2011, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

dE2000 ~0.5 for white. I care more about the adaptive integration time mode. It's useful for displays with relatively high contrast and it's also more plasma dither friendly.

I measured similar, dE CIE94 0.67. I also found errors in the colors of about the same magnitude, nothing exceeding 0.7.

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post #1334 of 3305 Old 10-20-2011, 07:49 PM
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Larry,

Are your setting on June 30th for your new set? I've tried to search for your "new" setting with no luck.

Thanks.
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post #1335 of 3305 Old 10-21-2011, 03:46 AM
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@zoyd

You may find bigger deviance if you measure a 10% gray patch with Default and Adaptive HiRes modes (also note the variation between the repeated measurements).


I have the feeling you may understand this ADC part a bit better.
Besids what looks best subjectivel, do you know how could we set up the ADC parameters to minimize the processing on the ADC side?

You say it's 10-bit, and I want to preseve the full range of my 0-1023 input until the more precise 3D video processing.
How do I do that?

The problem is that ADC can both over- and under-shoot the VP input range and 10-bit is enough to keep relatively smooth gradients even after some processing (the solution would be trivial with a fully <=8bit chain or easy if it could only over- or undershoor the VP range.)

The gray gradient seems smooth after the manual tuning but I can't do anything about a slight near-white anomaly: like R=G=B= 255 lives it's own little life at the upper end of the gradient which follows the rules much heavily (100% white is less affected by the white balance controls than other near-white shades and near-white is also more affected than the rest of the gradient).

I guess the chain isnt't really optimized for full range input.

Sorry if I couldn't explain it. I am using my smartphone and my limited English. I will try to draw it when I got home.

May be I should compress the level with my GPU or see if it helps to convet the RGB to YCC with the GPU (the latter would be still full range but offload the VP a bit.)

This legacy range compression should have been eliminated by Rec709, just like the chroma subsampling.

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post #1336 of 3305 Old 10-21-2011, 04:48 AM
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So what do you do when you go to adjust your 2pt at 80% and you don't have enough adjustment, in my case red? I turn my red gain down to 0 and I still can not get it down so I can balance it with the green and blue. Is there a place in the service menu where I can get more adjustment?
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post #1337 of 3305 Old 10-21-2011, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTM250 View Post

So what do you do when you go to adjust your 2pt at 80% and you don’t have enough adjustment, in my case red? I turn my red gain down to 0 and I still can not get it down so I can balance it with the green and blue. Is there a place in the service menu where I can get more adjustment?



Which Picture Mode we talk about and which Color Tone you chose as a starting point?

Or what sensor do you use? Colorimeter or spectrometer? If colorimeter, then did you set it up for CRT or LCD? Do you have correction tables for for it?


I can't imagine a scenario where you have to decrease the Red Gain that much.


Movie mode with Warm2 should be a good starting point (+/- 10 Red notches at max) and Cool is bluish (needs MORE red).



In the basic Service Menu you have "base white balance" settings which affect every color modes (more precisely the R,G,B Gains/Offsets affects them all, Sub Contrast and Sub Brightness correspond to non-Movie modes only, Movie Mode has it's own Sub-Brightness/Contrast settings. -> The latter is unavailable in the basic SM).

In the Advanced section of the Service Menu, you can also edit the R and B Gains/Offsets (green should be left alone anyway, or you can change the Green in the base WB settings if you must) of the Normal and Warm 2 color tones. But these are only accessible through the Top Debug Menu (available through the serial connection).


And take a look at your ADC settings which we talked about with zoyd. May be your "ADC Results" values are incorrect.


One of these should be set up incorrectly, you have a defective sensor, or a very deviant panel.

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post #1338 of 3305 Old 10-21-2011, 06:32 AM
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Janos
I am using movie mode, warm2. I am using Calman with a colormunki. I set calman up using the plasma table. I also have a eye one display 2 that gives me basicly the same results. As far as the rest of your response I will have to check them when I get home.
Thanks
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post #1339 of 3305 Old 10-21-2011, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

@zoyd

You may find bigger deviance if you measure a 10% gray patch with Default and Adaptive HiRes modes (also note the variation between the repeated measurements).


I have the feeling you may understand this ADC part a bit better.
Besids what looks best subjectivel, do you know how could we set up the ADC parameters to minimize the processing on the ADC side?

You say it's 10-bit, and I want to preseve the full range of my 0-1023 input until the more precise 3D video processing.
How do I do that?

The problem is that ADC can both over- and under-shoot the VP input range and 10-bit is enough to keep relatively smooth gradients even after some processing (the solution would be trivial with a fully <=8bit chain or easy if it could only over- or undershoor the VP range.)

The gray gradient seems smooth after the manual tuning but I can't do anything about a slight near-white anomaly: like R=G=B= 255 lives it's own little life at the upper end of the gradient which follows the rules much heavily (100% white is less affected by the white balance controls than other near-white shades and near-white is also more affected than the rest of the gradient).

I guess the chain isnt't really optimized for full range input.

Sorry if I couldn't explain it. I am using my smartphone and my limited English. I will try to draw it when I got home.

May be I should compress the level with my GPU or see if it helps to convet the RGB to YCC with the GPU (the latter would be still full range but offload the VP a bit.)

This legacy range compression should have been eliminated by Rec709, just like the chroma subsampling.

I'm still working on this procedure but it appears promising. I haven't been able to fully evaluate the end result yet because I'm still optimizing and will have to do a recalibration because it throws off grayscale and gamma quite a bit. I found that manually editing the ADC Results values is not the way to go. With these you are adjusting the gain/offset of the input signal but there is another step which appears to be setting the actual mapping of the input range to digitizer levels when you perform an automatic calibration. It's the combination of setting gain/offset and then having the display autocal that got me the best results. I also found that setting gain/offset with subcontrast and brightness worked better than editing the results table.

So for example, this is what I did yesterday that so far looks like it gives good results in near black reproduction but I haven't measured yet.

For the low end:
1. At my desired contrast and gamma, my MLL limits proper display of black levels to video level 23.

So I used the brightness control to set level 9 as the first flashing bar in the black clipping pattern.

2. Performed HDMI autocalibration.

3. Check black clipping patterns and set first flashing bar back to 17-18.

This has the effect of mapping input level 16 back to the VP processor at where level 23 used to be, so that I should get betting gamma tracking as I approach black as MLL instead of true black. Need to measure to verify.

For the high end:
1. My input is YCbCr 16-255. Other discussions in this forum have shown allowing video levels up to 240 is sufficient and that allowing all Superwhite levels is not needed. The autocalibration used for the low end maps input white 235 to level 940 to allow headroom for superwhite up to 255. So I used the white clipping pattern and increased my subcontrast to clip at 240 at my desired contrast and cell level. Now I know that input level 240 is at the top of the display range. The immediate effect this has is that you have to lower light output using the CELL control not contrast. This is because CELL is after the digitizer and contrast is before so it won't screw up your input range. The other thing I noticed was a rather amazing high end peak white of 58 ftL. So now I have something like contrast 76 and CELL 8 to get 28 ftL.

@janos666: For your full range input using HDMI you might want to try clipping peak white to 235 using subscontrast, performing the autocal, and then setting subcontrast back to 128.
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post #1340 of 3305 Old 10-21-2011, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

1. My input is YCbCr 16-255. Other discussions in this forum have shown allowing video levels up to 240 is sufficient and that allowing all Superwhite levels is not needed.

Unless you play PC games on your TV because it's your all-in-one PC monitor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

For your full range input using HDMI you might want to try clipping peak white to 235 using subscontrast, performing the autocal, and then setting subcontrast back to 128.

I will try.

I am currently experimenting with this setup:
Base WB: 8x128
ADC: 255,255,255,0,0,0
Cell, Contrast, Brightness: 20, 80, 15

This gives me a low but acceptable peak brightness and the white balance seems to be very stable across the gray-scale. But may be it crushes the shadow range a bit.

---

Ahh. So the stupid Gamma control cuts back the black alignment because it tries to do absolute TRC scaling without black offset? I thought it's simply some unwanted interaction between the controls or the VP runs out of the digital precision, etc.
I am not sure about this question. My mind hates the clipping, but my subconsciousness usually feels this solution better for the first look. Later they both agree that the "gray patches" (MLL black patches) don't look that good on the display.

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post #1341 of 3305 Old 10-21-2011, 09:12 AM
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There is something called "Panel Auto Setting" in SM/SVC which was "Success" on my TV when I bought it. But my main board had to be replaced and it's "Fault" since then.
(The technician did nothing but checked the model number in the SM.)

Can you find anything about this in the service manual? (Should I execute it somehow?)

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post #1342 of 3305 Old 10-21-2011, 09:53 AM
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Sub Contrast and Sub Brightness makes no difference.
It doesn't seem to affect Movie mode at all. I think Movie mode uses the MSub Brightness and MSub Contrast. Don't these controls do the same as the normal Contrast and Brightness settings in the user menu?
I got the same ADC Results values and I didn't notice any difference on the gray-scale quality after I set Sub Brightness and Sub Contrast to 255 for testing.

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post #1343 of 3305 Old 10-21-2011, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

Sub Contrast and Sub Brightness makes no difference.
It doesn't seem to affect Movie mode at all. I think Movie mode uses the MSub Brightness and MSub Contrast. Don't these controls do the same as the normal Contrast and Brightness settings in the user menu?
I got the same ADC Results values and I didn't notice any difference on the gray-scale quality after I set Sub Brightness and Sub Contrast to 255 for testing.

ok, I use Cal D/N and these are definitely affected by the sub controls. Sub contrast is course and user menu contrast is finer control. I couldn't get whites to clip until user contrast was 100.

You will get the same ADC results, that's normal. What changes is which levels get mapped to the bottom and top of the ADC based on your input levels. Maybe try the MSUB controls in WBMovie menu.
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post #1344 of 3305 Old 10-21-2011, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

Weird but MSub Brightness doesn't do anything with Movie Mode (128,138,228 makes no difference at all).

I can run the HDMI calibration with C,B=0,0 and get the same result (visually) with 50,50 as if I ran it with 100,100. It makes no difference for me.

Try this:

1. Set standard mode at desired gamma, brightness and contrast. (same as movie mode values)
2. Set subcontrast to clip to at 235 (should be somewhere around 160).
3. Set brightness so that video level 1 flashes.
4. Perform HDMI calibration in standard mode.
5. Set subcontrast back to 168 or wherever you get full range back.
6. Adjust brightness if needed.

btw - I checked the manual and there is no information on the panel auto setting.

edit: or it could be that the calibration only applies to YCbCr and not RGB input.
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post #1345 of 3305 Old 10-21-2011, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Try this:

1. Set standard mode at desired gamma, brightness and contrast. (same as movie mode values)
2. Set subcontrast to clip to at 235 (should be somewhere around 160).
3. Set brightness so that video level 1 flashes.
4. Perform HDMI calibration in standard mode.
5. Set subcontrast back to 168 or wherever you get full range back.
6. Adjust brightness if needed.

edit: or it could be that the calibration only applies to YCbCr and not RGB input.

It worked. I clipped some of the "damaged" bright shades. But it seems like I need to clip a little bit more, not just the WTW range.

But before I start to cut the whole range piece-by-piece (there is a huge pinkish spike close to IRE50) here is another problem of the puzzle: the 60Hz panel refresh mode is fine, only 96Hz (CinemaSmooth) looks defective.

It's very strange because the 96Hz mode always produced smoother gray-scale than 60Hz. (It's understandable because the VP has to deal with less frames and the panel has more cycles to carry out the dithering...) The gray-scale with 60Hz was acceptable, but still worse than with 96Hz refresh mode. Now it seems like it turned and 60Hz is fine (I guess it's the same but now looks very nice when compared to CS) and CS is damaged (I wouldn't say I never saw worse. It's still better than a Pana G20, but far from that what I wish to see...).

CS was always easier to calibrate. When I give it a try now, I had to abort the procedure in the middle of the gray-scale calibration because it felt like I am dealing with a VT30 (I went back and fort, back and forth, never finding the target and the gray gradient just looked worse or similarly bad, but any better...)



How could this happen and how to "solve" it?

I don't think it has to do anything with the ADC calibration or the WBMovie settings. Those are system-wide and 60Hz is still OK. It must be something else, but what...?

I think it happened before I started to play with the serial port and I just didn't notice it when I started to play with the ADC settings...

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post #1346 of 3305 Old 10-21-2011, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

edit: or it could be that the calibration only applies to YCbCr and not RGB input.

This leads me to a question: Where does the HDMI RGB input -> internal YCC 4:2:2 conversion happens?

The ADC Results are R,G,B gains/cuts but they also apply to the YCC input signals. This could mean:

HDMI (RGB) -> ADC (RGB) -> VP (RGB->YCC->RGB)
HDMI (YCC) -> ADC (YCC->RGB) -> VP (RGB->YCC->RGB)

The second would be funny.


I will experiment a bit with YCC input.

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post #1347 of 3305 Old 10-21-2011, 04:22 PM
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Well, OK. The big solution was to reboot the device.

It seems I have to do this every time I change any ADC/WB values. The TV switches to some drifted mode when I touch those controls. I noticed that. But I thought it's enough to switch between picture modes or turn some Contrast or Brightness settings up and down because it changed the picture a lot. But no...

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post #1348 of 3305 Old 10-21-2011, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neophyte72 View Post

I just received My 59D7000 so I would like some more settings,preferably for a room with 2 Windows..

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallen234 View Post

Larry,

Are your setting on June 30th for your new set? I've tried to search for your "new" setting with no luck.

Thanks.




Here are two more calibrations done on my 64D7000. Different initial conditions were assumed for adjusting peak white and white balance. The end results were essentially identical for both. The grayscale deltaE was below 2 from 20 to 100% stimulus.

My i1 Pro was used. My i1 LT was used to check the black level which varied from 0.006 to 0.008 ftL over about 2 minutes of continuous measurements. (That meter has been verified with a Konica Minolta LS-100 to be accurate to less than 0.02 cd/m^2 or 0.0058 ftL.)

The contrast for the most recent calibration (10/19) can be increased to 95 with no visible change in the grayscale or colors. Doing so will increase the peak white output to about 37 ftL but an adjustment to the brightness control setting will be needed.

I didn't list them but all the "enhancements" are off or 0.


9/17/2011 10/19/2011
30.2 ftL 29.7 ftL
Ɣ = 2.28 Ɣ = 2.31
movie movie
cell 17 20
cont 78 75
bright 62 61
sharp 10 10
color 50 50
tint 51/49 51/49
gamma 0 0
White Balance
roff 26 23
goff 22 25
boff 25 25
rgain 19 15
ggain 25 25
bgain 25 19
Color Space
r 67, 63, 52 40, 43, 41
g 100, 11, 0 93, 10, 0
b 25, 25, 60 33, 26, 60
y 45, 50, 50 41, 51, 66
c 100, 74, 85 100, 45, 42
m 0, 100, 95 24, 100, 37
10 Point Interval
1 -1, 0, 1 1, 1, 3
2 -1, 2, 1 1, 1, 2
3 -1, 2, 0 4, 4, 2
4 0, 2, 1 1, 3, 3
5 -1, 3, 1 3, 4, 4
6 -1, 2, 1 4, 4, 4
7 -2, 3, -3 1, 1, -1
8 -1, 1, -1 3, 1, -1
9 -2, 3, -3 -1, -1, -4
10 -3, 3, 2 0, 0, 0
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post #1349 of 3305 Old 10-22-2011, 07:18 PM
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So, I know some people have been talking about 3D in here, but I just got some glasses and, while I'll have to tolerate the darkness effect (no way around it really, unless I got more expensive glasses I guess), the picture is overly green. Maybe it's the tint on my glasses, but what would you suggest I change to eliminate this effect? Changing the actual TV tint didn't really help (it just increased reds lol as it should have), and I don't want to change anything that will change the 2D settings as well. Any suggestions?

Also, just a general question about 3D content: currently I'm only looking at a 2D to 3D conversion when checking out the 3D (which is actually a damn good alternative, I must say). Do 3D Blu-rays boast a slightly brighter image to remedy the darkness issue that glasses cause?
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post #1350 of 3305 Old 10-22-2011, 07:24 PM
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Menu / Picture / Advanced Settings / White balance
Good luck to set it up without a color sensor. (Note: do not touch Green, use Red and Blue, start with the Gains)
No, the BD videos aren't different. Both the plasma display and the LCD glasses have hardware limitations, this is what you can get today with these TVs...

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