Panasonic TC - P50GT25 - Image Retention / Burn-In - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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Old 07-22-2011, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello, below are answers to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by santori_time View Post

Are the pictures are indicative of your settings you are using, i.e standard mode with 100 contrast?

No, I used THX mode all the time. The one time I played FALLOUT 3, it was on the THX setting.

The pictures shown are in 'standard' mode because this is what Panasonic requested for the first evaluation.

Quote:


If this is correct, my 42" G25 exhibits the exact same behaviour with those settings in regards to the noise.

My friend also has the 42" plasma from this line. His exhibits no noise in any mode - THX, Standard, Vivid, etc. Does yours get permanent image retention as well?

Quote:


THX with around 52 contrast is what I generally use and I still get image retention that occasionally lasts for weeks (although this is not the norm).

That's basically what I used, but my image retention doesn't go away or diminish in anyway.

I'm washing my hands of this TV and Panasonic at this point. They made me a firm supporter of Sony for TVs from now on. I never should have strayed.
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Old 07-22-2011, 05:54 PM
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Maybe your girlfriend plays Fallout in vivid mode when you aren't watching.

in all seriousness, sounds horrible. Good luck. Panasonic is on thin ice with me as well since I have fluctuating brightness on my 65ST30.
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Old 07-24-2011, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tfoltz View Post

Maybe your girlfriend plays Fallout in vivid mode when you aren't watching.

Ha, right!

Quote:
in all seriousness, sounds horrible. Good luck. Panasonic is on thin ice with me as well since I have fluctuating brightness on my 65ST30.

Thanks. I've moved on. My 55HX929 should be arriving this week!

I'm going to hold onto the Panasonic plasma for a month while I wait to see what the Better Business Bureau has to say. Maybe they'll do something. If not, at the very least I'll be sure to make sure none of my friends and family buy Panasonic again. I'm the "go-to person" for electronics advice.
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Old 07-24-2011, 08:50 AM
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I do recall reading here that a lot of people returned GT25's for noise problems last year FWIW. I don't recall IR as a major issue generally though. Sorry about all of your trouble.

What gets me is they said your tv was not working right, took it away & did nothing & now you have to wait for it's return. Crappy service! They should have at least been able to tell that without hauling it off...

I won't buy Panasonic again likely either. My G20 has awful floating blacks & buzzes like a beehive. I tried to get the buzz fixed twice to no avail. I bought an extended warranty on it & may attempt a claim through that at some point before it is up. The Panny's are nice on the surface but have really annoying underlying issues that make owning them disappointing.
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Old 07-24-2011, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post

I do recall reading here that a lot of people returned GT25's for noise problems last year FWIW. I don't recall IR as a major issue generally though. Sorry about all of your trouble.

What gets me is they said your tv was not working right, took it away & did nothing & now you have to wait for it's return. Crappy service! They should have at least been able to tell that without hauling it off...

I won't buy Panasonic again likely either. My G20 has awful floating blacks & buzzes like a beehive. I tried to get the buzz fixed twice to no avail. I bought an extended warranty on it & may attempt a claim through that at some point before it is up. The Panny's are nice on the surface but have really annoying underlying issues that make owning them disappointing.

Go with the cheaper pdp's. Me and my brother in law picked up a couple of Panny C2's last year and they both work flawlessly. No floating or rising blacks, fluctuating brightness, buzzing etc.. and like I posted before the IR has never been an issue for him or me. My set may not have jaw dropping blacks or the best color accuracy, but it works for me! Good luck with your new set Phil.

Regards,
Ian

The best way to succeed in life is to act on the advice you give to others

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Old 07-25-2011, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philexile View Post

Ha, right!



Thanks. I've moved on. My 55HX929 should be arriving this week!

I'm going to hold onto the Panasonic plasma for a month while I wait to see what the Better Business Bureau has to say. Maybe they'll do something. If not, at the very least I'll be sure to make sure none of my friends and family buy Panasonic again. I'm the "go-to person" for electronics advice.

In my opinion you received a bad set. No noise issues or IR problems on my GT25 and it has been flawless since I received it. I've heard good things about the Sony so hope you enjoy. No buzzing either btw

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Old 07-25-2011, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philexile View Post

Ha, right!



Thanks. I've moved on. My 55HX929 should be arriving this week!

I'm going to hold onto the Panasonic plasma for a month while I wait to see what the Better Business Bureau has to say. Maybe they'll do something. If not, at the very least I'll be sure to make sure none of my friends and family buy Panasonic again. I'm the "go-to person" for electronics advice.

Let me know how the HX929 works for you. It's one of the TV I am considering. View angle (espicially for contrast), input lag in video games and price tag are question that I'm looking for answers before buying one.
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Old 07-25-2011, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post

I do recall reading here that a lot of people returned GT25's for noise problems last year FWIW.

That wouldn't surprise me. Had I know it was so abnormal, I would have returned it to the retailer immediately.

Quote:


What gets me is they said your tv was not working right, took it away & did nothing & now you have to wait for it's return. Crappy service! They should have at least been able to tell that without hauling it off...

Yep, really great right? I'm actually still having problems trying to get it back. Panasonic will not return my calls to schedule a return!

Also, I think part of the 're-evaluation' was due to the field service rep's belief that the burn-in was from an HP (Hewlett Packard) computer screen saver.

When I spoke with Jeff Dooley, National Field Service Manager at Panasonic, he made a point to say: "The field service rep did notice image-retention from your HP computer."

I corrected him by telling him it was actually from the game FALLOUT 3 - 'AP' standing for 'Action Points' and then asked him if he or the field service rep actually reviewed the details of my case prior to making their decision. He didn't answer - which made it pretty apparent he had not. They have a word for this: incompetence.

Quote:


I won't buy Panasonic again likely either. My G20 has awful floating blacks & buzzes like a beehive. I tried to get the buzz fixed twice to no avail. I bought an extended warranty on it & may attempt a claim through that at some point before it is up. The Panny's are nice on the surface but have really annoying underlying issues that make owning them disappointing.

I'll be making it a point to discourage ANYONE I know from buying Panasonic. It may not be much but I'm sure it will cost them at least 10x the amount it would have to fix my TV.
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Go with the cheaper pdp's. Me and my brother in law picked up a couple of Panny C2's last year and they both work flawlessly. No floating or rising blacks, fluctuating brightness, buzzing etc.. and like I posted before the IR has never been an issue for him or me. My set may not have jaw dropping blacks or the best color accuracy, but it works for me! Good luck with your new set Phil.

Regards,
Ian

Hi Ian,

Your right. I have a Panasonic TC-P42S2 40 inch as a loaner and there is barely any noise at all - on any setting - Vivid, Standard, etc. I guess that's a 'feature' of my TV.

If anyone wants, I'll take pictures so you can compare. Just let me know.
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

In my opinion you received a bad set. No noise issues or IR problems on my GT25 and it has been flawless since I received it. I've heard good things about the Sony so hope you enjoy. No buzzing either btw

Ya, I tried to explain that to Panasonic - but they obviously don't care about their customers or reputation.
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibs View Post

Let me know how the HX929 works for you. It's one of the TV I am considering. View angle (espicially for contrast), input lag in video games and price tag are question that I'm looking for answers before buying one.

View angle - I heard was pretty good, unless you push it to extremes. We have a couch right in front of the TV, so its not a big deal. I'll be sure to let you know.

Input Lag - This TV is approximately 1 frame, so 16 milliseconds, slower than the plasma I'm replacing. So it is barely perceptible. My friend in Germany, who only plays Shmups, has the HX909 and he said he doesn't have any problems with lag.

Price - I bought mine from US Appliance for $2550, no tax or shipping costs. The price also includes 6 pairs of 3D glasses. US Appliance is an authorized seller and it comes with a 30 day guarantee, which includes shipping at back to them if your not satisfied for no additional charge - just hold onto the box!

You need to call to get the price. I dealt with Larry (x.434), who was awesome. You should talk to him. Here is a link:

http://www.us-appliance.com/xbr55hx929.html
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Old 07-26-2011, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philexile View Post

Ya, I tried to explain that to Panasonic - but they obviously don't care about their customers or reputation.

Its unfortunate because it is really a quality set when dialed in. Enjoy your Sony

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Old 08-01-2011, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello,

Another update from the Better Business Bureau. Panasonic has responded and this response is included below. I edited out the last names of all involved parties.


On July 29, 2011, the business provided the following information:
Please see comments below from our field service group regarding Mr. XXXX's TV:

7/21/11: Jim XXXX and Alex XXXX evaluated the unit this afternoon in the engineering lab. Unit has burn in of the HP logo in the lower left corner of the screen. The noise that customer is complaining about is evident in standard mode and this is normal in standard mode as part of energy saving. The noise is not evident in any other mode.

I called Mr. XXXX and advised that unit is working to specifications and that burn in of HP logo will not be covered under warranty. Unit will be taken for Advisory TV tomorrow for return to the customer.

7/26/11: The unit was picked up from Advisory TV and pulled into engineering on 7-21-11 the unit was tested and found to be operating as per specifications, the unit does show signs of image retention that was caused by a video game this will not be covered under warranty. The unit was pulled from Engineering and delivered back to Advisory on 7-25-11. On 7-26-11 Advisory contacted the customer to make arrangements to deliver the unit back to the customer, the customer was not available so a message was left on the answering machine and they are still waiting for the customer to return their call.

Regretfully, as stated on page 7 of your owner's manual, "Do not display a still picture for a long time. This causes the image to remain on the plasma screen ("image retention"). This is not considered a malfunction and is not covered by the warranty.

Therefore, we must respectfully decline the customer's request for refund or replacement.


Lastly, below is my response:

Hello,

Please see my responses below and let me know if anything is not clear.

----------------

The noise that customer is complaining about is evident in standard mode and this is normal in standard mode as part of energy saving.

>> This is not normal and the noise is evident in every mode - including THX. I can provide high resolution photographs upon request with the mode clearly shown in the image.

----------------

Unit has burn in of the HP logo in the lower left corner of the screen.

and

I called Mr. XXXX and advised that unit is working to specifications and that burn in of HP logo will not be covered under warranty.

>> Jim did call, however, he obviously did not review my case and is not being clear about the details of our conversation.

The burn in was NOT caused by an HP computer screensaver and was NOT an HP logo. I previously explained to him when we spoke. The burn in was a result of playing the game, FALLOUT 3, for three hours and the letters are actually 'AP' which stands for ACTION POINTS. This was clearly explained - multiple times - to each representative I spoke with at Panasonic.

For burn-in to occur after this short an amount of time is abnormal and proof that the television is not working within spec. Again, I can provide high resolution photographs for review.

----------------

7/26/11: The unit was picked up from Advisory TV and pulled into engineering on 7-21-11 the unit was tested and found to be operating as per specifications, the unit does show signs of image retention that was caused by a video game this will not be covered under warranty.

>> Jim, please clarify: previously you attributed the image retention to a an HP logo, now its a video game - why did this changed?

Also, why did you state it was from an HP screen saver in the first place?

Its my assumption that this could better justify your companies assertion that the image retention was most definitely a result of 'abuse' - displaying a still image on screen for an extended period of time - and not normal use - playing a video game.

Additionally, what Jim is not being clear about is that the TV was reviewed by Panasonic multiple times and they kept revising their appraisal - sometimes saying the TV was within spec and, other times, saying it was determined to not be working properly.

Photographs were first reviewed in May and June and it was decided by the engineer that the TV was operating out of spec and needed an 'a-board' replacement.

This was later revised and then I was told it was not operating out of spec and that no repairs would be done. This was told to me via an email from Advisory TV. I can provide this email and all other correspondences if necessary.

After I called to see what happened, this was revised again and the way it was explained to me was that they had the model number's confused - the last tech that reviewed my case thought I had a Panasonic Viera TC-P50S2, which was incorrect. They said the noise would be acceptable on an S2, but not my high-end GT25. I find this excuse questionable since Panasonic had all my purchase information included with the case.

After this the TV was picked up, with the intent for Advisory to repair it. I would like to reiterate that the Panasonic representative, Helen, specifically said the TV was being picked up to be repaired.

Panasonic/Advisory TV then held the TV for 2-3 weeks only to review it again and decide not to repair it at all.

----------------

On 7-26-11 Advisory contacted the customer to make arrangements to deliver the unit back to the customer, the customer was not available so a message was left on the answering machine and they are still waiting for the customer to return their call.

>> This doesn't make sense. No message was left on my cell phone and the TV was returned on Friday, July 29.

----------------

Regretfully, as stated on page 7 of your owner's manual, "Do not display a still picture for a long time. This causes the image to remain on the plasma screen ("image retention"). This is not considered a malfunction and is not covered by the warranty.

>> This is true and, contrary to your belief, I read my owner's manual. I did not display a still picture for a long time - I displayed a video game, which was constantly moving.

Every video game, sporting event, and TV network station has static graphics on screen for extended periods of time. To clarify, please see the video below for the exact game I was playing:

http://www.g4tv.com/videos/26926/Fal...Gameplay-Demo/

Also, here is a typical EPSN TV broadcast. Note the static images at the bottom of the screen. According to Jim's assertions, if I watched this show for up to 3 hours, I would not be covered by my warranty if image retention occured:

http://capitalsoutsider.com/files/20...-suspended.jpg

Also, from FOX NEWS:

http://micahmcmillan.files.wordpress...-lis_weihl.jpg

These are obviously NOT still pictures and, most importantly, no were in your manual does it state NOT to play video games on the TV. All of the examples shown above are NORMAL usage and not abuse as you and your company contends.

This complaint is valid and needs to be addressed. Also, Jim is using the phrase 'Image Retention' which means that the retention fades after a time. Burn-In, which is the case with this TV, is different. Please see the Wikipedia entry below for a complete summary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_persistence

----------------

>> What I only briefly touched on above was the utter incompetence of Panasonic throughout this experience. See the forum thread below for more more details regarding this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1338361

If you need a detailed timeline in Word format, I'll be happy to provide it.

>> Its important to also note that Panasonic's timeline only details from July 21 thru July 26, but this case was started on May 30. If after this response, Panasonic is still insistent on not refunding the cost of or replacing the TV, I insist that they include ALL THE NOTES from my case. For reference, my case number was 28665653.

Best Regards
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:10 PM
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Hello,

I am aware this is an old thred but wanted to know how Philexile's situation turned out?

I have IR on my VT 30.
Pany just came out and asked me if I needed two people to pick it up and if I needed a loaner?

Enough said....
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Old 01-13-2012, 06:18 AM
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I sent my LG Plasma back for the same reasons along with flickering/strobing brightness caused by the technologies ABL circuit.

IR and the noise (dithering) was not what I wanted. Bought a LED LCD TV and am happy now.

Your problems are issues of the technology, not standalone defects but collective plasma technology problems.

Good luck none the less.
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolMETAL View Post

I sent my LG Plasma back for the same reasons along with flickering/strobing brightness caused by the technologies ABL circuit.

IR and the noise (dithering) was not what I wanted. Bought a LED LCD TV and am happy now.

Your problems are issues of the technology, not standalone defects but collective plasma technology problems.

Good luck none the less.

Lord knows there are no collective LED LCD issues.

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Old 01-13-2012, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Lord knows there are no collective LED LCD issues.

Yes there is, clouding/flashlighting, black level inability to display true black, and off center viewing.

However with the better TV's having "local dimming" and better panels as IPS, these issues are about alleviated.

Since the poster is obviously really bothered by the Plasma Technology problems, LED LCD with local dimming sounds like it would suite him better.
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolMETAL View Post

Yes there is, clouding/flashlighting, black level inability to display true black, and off center viewing.

However with the better TV's having "local dimming" and better panels as IPS, these issues are about alleviated.

Since the poster is obviously really bothered by the Plasma Technology problems, LED LCD with local dimming sounds like it would suite him better.

To each his own I just think it is a little bit of a stretch to dismiss an entire technology based on your experiences with an "LG" plasma.

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Old 01-13-2012, 11:27 AM
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Really never expected this discusion to go in this direction but find it rather amusing.
to each his own is an excellent point.
All Tech. have issues.
My burn in was quite severe.
I assume that s why it is being taken care of.
But I do find it interesting that from my understanding you did not have to be as careful breaking in older Plasma sets to prevent burn it or IR.
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Panda View Post

Really never expected this discusion to go in this direction but find it rather amusing.
to each his own is an excellent point.
All Tech. have issues.
My burn in was quite severe.
I assume that s why it is being taken care of.
But I do find it interesting that from my understanding you did not have to be as careful breaking in older Plasma sets to prevent burn it or IR.

I think it is probably true that the newer 3d sets might be a tad more prone to IR. If you have permanent burnin from normal tv viewing I'd say you have a defective set. I have owned two panasonic plasmas 08 px80 and 2010 GT25 and have never seen more thant some minor temporary IR on either of them.

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Old 01-13-2012, 03:23 PM
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This is exactly why I went with a Pany in the first place.
They ssem to hav efew if any problems over time.
Most people are able to get rid of Burn in or IR uf they even have it at all.
Am interested to know what Pany says once they have it in service.
You also mention temoporary.
That is exactly what most people experience once again if they have it at all.
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Old 01-16-2012, 01:16 PM
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I was really hoping to hear from Philexexile.
Not a word from him.

Pany service just picked up my set.
New panel already ordered.

I am extreamly pleased!
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Old 01-16-2012, 05:43 PM
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I've had our set since march of last year with a november 2010 build date. I have had absolutely no issues with noise coming from the set whatsoever. However, I have had a small issue with a bit of ir . It's fading, but still slightly noticable in the bottom right corner when something white is on. now I understand that the build month tells me that the tv has the newer phosphers in it. But was wondering how long the rectangle will take to completely fade. We were watching nat geo for a half week and the logo stayed. But like I said, its slowly fading.
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:24 PM
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Sadly, i've contacted them and suggested a solution to this that would work in firmware as a preventative measure, but sofar no good.

Maybe i need to patent it then sell it to them, rofl.

Otherwise, for future references.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlzN3voxAXA
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:14 PM
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Had to read this thread before my P60GT30 is delivered this weekend. I bought the Geek Squad Extended warranty just because of this poor guys experiences with this TV and Panasonic.
I just hope Panny re-accesses their priorities before they're forced out of the TV business. cool.gif

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Old 02-21-2013, 03:48 PM
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Getting panazonic to issue a firmware fix for a 2010 model is unrealistix and since you purchased a 2011 model i wouldnt expect a swift reolution to any problems. The focus is always on the current years models

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Old 03-12-2013, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolMETAL View Post

I sent my LG Plasma back for the same reasons along with flickering/strobing brightness caused by the technologies ABL circuit.


IR and the noise (dithering) was not what I wanted. Bought a LED LCD TV and am happy now.


Your problems are issues of the technology, not standalone defects but collective plasma technology problems.


Good luck none the less.


You're probably right about the limitations of plasma technologies, but all these so called "experts" swear that IR isn't an issue anymore. I couldn't disagree more! Just sent my TC-P60UT50 back for IR after making the mistake of watching Fox News on it within the 100 "break in" period. Thankfully I was able to negotiate an upgrade to TC-P60GT50 with Best Buy and I bought their Geek Squad Extended Warranty specifically because it covers Burn In/Image Retention. I've put about a 150 hours on it now with the suggested slides, and yes I'm babying it to extent, at least until its 200 hours old.
It's simply a gorgeous TV and the picture is superb. But from what I've been reading, I'm starting to think that the 3D capable plasmas are more susceptible to IR.

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