Panasonic TC - P50GT25 - Image Retention / Burn-In - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 87 Old 05-30-2011, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello,

I purchased a Panasonic P50GT25 plasma this past February. I made sure to run it though its 'burn-in' period for over 100 hours and, overall, have been having great luck with it.

I recently built a new PC to hook up to it and played FALLOUT 3 on it this past week. I probably played for about 4 or 5 hours straight one night and noticed image retention from the in-game HUD. I ran the wipes many, many times and it didn't work. Then today I ran 'static noise' and that didn't do anything either. I ran this for at least 6 hours.

At this point, I think its burned in - which is ridiculous considering how little I played. Basically, I'm looking for advice on:

1. How to fix it, if that's possible.

2. What to tell Panasonic to make them fix it or replace it. I noticed in their 'warranty' it doesn't cover image retention.

Thanks in advance.

Best Regards
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post #2 of 87 Old 05-30-2011, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philexile View Post

Hello,

I purchased a Panasonic P50GT25 plasma this past February. I made sure to run it though its 'burn-in' period for over 100 hours and, overall, have been having great luck with it.

I recently built a new PC to hook up to it and played FALLOUT 3 on it this past week. I probably played for about 4 or 5 hours straight one night and noticed image retention from the in-game HUD. I ran the wipes many, many times and it didn't work. Then today I ran 'static noise' and that didn't do anything either. I ran this for at least 6 hours.

At this point, I think its burned in - which is ridiculous considering how little I played. Basically, I'm looking for advice on:

1. How to fix it, if that's possible.

2. What to tell Panasonic to make them fix it or replace it. I noticed in their 'warranty' it doesn't cover image retention.

Thanks in advance.

Best Regards


For stubborn IR Panasonic suggests you run your set with a snowy white picture (preferably max contrast, vivid mode) several hours a day for up to 2 weeks. I've had an IR issue with The YES channel sports ticker and it took a few days. Now I use the white scroll bar for a few minutes after each game and watch some full screen mixed content. No more pesky IR for me.


Ian

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post #3 of 87 Old 05-30-2011, 09:15 PM
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Sorry to hear your story philexhile.

Unfortunately I think you're going to find that a plasma isn't the best for serious gaming sessions like that. Yeah, I know people will tell you that "modern plasmas" aren't a problem for gaming, but you're seeing yourself that's not completely true. Usually you'll find people telling you it's your fault for some reason, or you have to jump through hoops "x, y, and z" to keep it from happening.

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post #4 of 87 Old 05-30-2011, 11:44 PM
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It is doubtful it is burn-in, but rather stubborn image retention. I have heard it can take weeks to fade in the worst cases. You'll probably just have to be patient. You may want to run the game in your TVs overscan mode, to put the hud in a different location for a while.

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post #5 of 87 Old 05-30-2011, 11:50 PM
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I agree about being patient first. I have two Panasonic plasmas and game often. However, the longest I usually go in one stretch is two hours or so. I haben't seen eben the slighyest bit or IR in ages. Try to watch a vunch of full screen material for a week or so and see if that does the trick.
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post #6 of 87 Old 05-31-2011, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been running a static noise loop, but it doesn't seem to help. Do you think it would be better to run the red, green, blue, white, and gray color slides instead?
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post #7 of 87 Old 06-08-2011, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello,

To update: the image retention is still present, even after running constant snow and/or white bar wipes for 12+ hours per day. It does not appear to have diminished.

I've been in contact with Panasonic technical support in regard to this matter and have sent them a detailed email in hopes of finding a resolution to the issue. A portion of this email, along with images, is included below for reference. Hopefully, if someone else has this same issue, it will help.

I'll update this thread with any information and/or fix information I receive from Panasonic.

Thanks again for all your responses and suggestions.

----------------------

Images & Descriptions

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5264/ironwhite01sm.jpg

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7...nwhite02sm.jpg

These two images show the image retention the most clearly. You can easily see the letters CND and AP, in addition to some lines. They appear almost pink on the white background.

Despite running the white bar sweep and black and white static for over two weeks, the image retention remains unaffected. I've been running the static and/or swipes for up to 12 hours per day.

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/7048/irimageonsm.jpg

As requested, this shows the image retention on top of an active image. Its less visible, due to the object obstruction, however AP can still clearly be discerned. I've noticed that the retention seems most visible on green, white, and blue imagery.

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/1...ionnoise01.jpg

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/919...ionnoise02.jpg

Additionally, I noticed that solid white shapes, in general, appear distorted and slightly offset. This is most noticeable in the white sweep bar. Please refer to image 02 on the inside, right-side of the bar. You can see it looks like a wavy, squiggly linear distortion. In image 01 you can see how the white line doesn't 'register' properly on the left side and appears gray.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5...rnoise01sm.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/480...rnoise02sm.jpg

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/7...rnoise03sm.jpg

These images all show the excessive amount of noise in solid colors. A friend of mine who has the 42" model of this TV took note of this and said this was very excessive. His TV doesn't have this amount of noise or the other issues detailed above.

----------------------
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post #8 of 87 Old 06-16-2011, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I have an update. Panasonic has reviewed the images I posted and notified me that the excessive noise and image retention are a result of a bad component.

They are sending a representative from Advisory TV and Radio Labs to repair the television on Monday. I'll be sure to update again then.

In the interim, I've been continuing to run white bar swipes and static noise. Unfortunately, the image retention has not diminished at all.

Has anyone else had similar issues with this model Panasonic plasma?
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post #9 of 87 Old 06-16-2011, 08:41 AM
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IR notwithstanding, had you posted the images of the noise over the settings menu in the first place we would have told you the TV is obviously defective and needs to be repaired. That's an insane amount of noise and the double-image of the menu's text is not normal. None of my plasmas have any noise like this whatsoever and the menu text is sharp and clear.


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post #10 of 87 Old 06-16-2011, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Randy,

I think that particular image you post is slightly out of focus. Here is a clearer one - noise still very apparent:



The tech I spoke to on the phone said the 'bad component' causing the noise likely also caused the image retention/burn-in.

My concern at this point is that they could still say that image retention is not covered in the warranty, even though the panel is obviously defective and the IR was caused by defective parts. He assured me that "I would be taken care of," but I'm a bit leery.

If you have any other suggestions on how I should deal with this, please let me know.

Thanks
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post #11 of 87 Old 06-20-2011, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I have another update. Today, an authorized Panasonic technician was sent to evaluate my problem. Panasonic had not sent him any of the case history and I had to go through each point of my problem from the beginning. He thought he was there to check out "buzzing" emitted from the TV.

1. Noise - He didn't seem concerned with this and even said that my friends 42" model may not show it as much because its smaller. I tend to disagree and still feel its big a performance issue. I looked at other plasmas in the store this weekend and none had this problem - even the Panasonic models.

2. Image Retention - Again, I had to explain to him that I did in fact run the color slides for over 100 hours, played the game on a low brightness settings (the panel's 'Game' mode) for only 3 - 5 hours, and ran the TV static and white bar wipe repeatedly in Vivid mode for weeks without any positive results.

I have to say, it gets really annoying that every person you speak to automatically assumes you screwed up and the problem with the TV is your fault.

Basically, he said he is going to order a board (which is on back order, of course) that helps the screen refresh when changing images or channels. He didn't say what the exact part was. If I can find out, I'll post it here.

When I asked if this would fix the noise and image retention, he was evasive. He did say if it works, it would be apparent 24 hours after the part was replaced. He also took this opportunity to remind me that Panasonic's warranty does not cover image retention and that Panasonic will do everything in its power to avoid actually having to replace a bad panel. I pointed out to him that it was told to me by a Panasonic tech that it was likely that the image retention (and noise) was caused by a bad component and, as such, should be covered. He just shrugged.

If anyone has any suggestions on how I should proceed, please let me know. I feel like this is going to be a whole summer of back-and-forth between myself and Panasonic - ending with them weaseling out of any responsibility.

Oh ya, did I mention that I had to take a half day off of work because the techs don't do weekends?

I should have kept my Sony KD-34XBR960. . . .
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post #12 of 87 Old 06-29-2011, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello,

I have another update. There has been a lot of back-and-forth in the past week, so I'll do my best to summarize.

6/20/2011 - Panasonic telephone technical support told me that the excessive noise was caused by a faulty A-BOARD and that Advisory TV would replace this board on-site within two weeks. In addition to the noise, it was also thought that this would help fix the image retention - this was told to me by the on-site service tech during his visit.

6/24/2011 - I received an email from Advisory TV stating the following:

"I sent your pix to Panasonic for review and I was told to make arrangement to p/u your set; Panasonic wants to evaluate the unit ( we can offer you a loaner tv; while yours is being address)."

6/28/2011 - After confirming information in the email from Advisory TV with Panasonic, I scheduled the pickup for this Friday, July 1st. I had to confirm since this was the complete opposite of what Panasonic telephone support (and Advisory TV) told me only a few days prior.

6/29/2011 - Today, I received another email from Advisory TV stating the following:

"Just received a call from our Panasonic field rep:

Technical engineering at Panasonic had re-reviewed your pictures that I had forwarded to them and it has been determined that the TV is within factory specs.

Due to this decision we are not going to be picking up your unit for further evaluation.

If you have any questions you must call Panasonic directly 800-211-7262"


Basically, this means they aren't going to fix my TV at all because it has been 're-re-reviewed' - I say this because this is the third 'review' by my count.

I did speak with Panasonic after receiving this email and they are investigating what is going on. According to their records, the TV is still flagged as an off-site repair. Supposedly, I'll be hearing back from them today. If I do (or do not) hear from them, I'll post here.

I have to say this has been one of the most distasteful experiences I've ever had with a product and it really makes me reevaluate my opinion that Panasonic is a reliable, trustworthy brand.
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post #13 of 87 Old 06-29-2011, 12:00 PM
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To be honest, I don't see anything in any of the photos that looks that bad. The problems either require a huge close up to see or you really have to strain to see. Maybe I'm missing something.

On my Panasonic plasma TV, when the TV is off and I'm standing a foot away, I can see the Nick Jr logo, but when I watch TV normally, everything looks fine.

I'm not saying you don't have a valid complaint, but unless the problem prevents you from watching the shows you enjoy, it's probably not worth the effort to get it fixed.
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post #14 of 87 Old 06-29-2011, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Kidhorn,

Actually, I can see the noise from across the room. I had my PS3 last night and noticed a huge amount of noise in the default menu - which looks sort of like washes of color, with whitish, wave ares - see below for an example of the menu, not the noise:



In those white areas, I could see the color noise 'dancing' throughout. So, it is very apparent and excessive. I took closeups because you wouldn't be able to see it otherwise with my iPhone camera.

In the second part of your message, I assume you're referring to the image retention. I cannot see any IR when the TV is off, so I think what you have is different from mine. I can say that when I was watching my 2001 Blu-Ray that I could see the IR very, very clearly in the end scenes - which really ruins the movie. The noise also was very distracting.



In short, the TV is defective. I'm going to take RandyWalters assessment over yours considering that he has 10000+ posts and more experience. No offense though, I do appreciate your input.

Best Regards
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post #15 of 87 Old 06-29-2011, 12:40 PM
 
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Replacing a faulty A-Board is not going to fix IR (ie. Burn in)
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post #16 of 87 Old 06-29-2011, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmac31391 View Post

Replacing a faulty A-Board is not going to fix IR (ie. Burn in)

Hello,

To reiterate, there are two issues with the television:

1. Image Retention
2. Excessive noise in the picture

Replacing the A-BOARD was supposed to address the excessive noise in the picture.

While the tech from Advisory TV was evaluating the television, he mentioned that it also had something to do with 'clearing' the image when changing channels or updating images. In effect, if it was defective, it would have a direct impact on the image retention. Whether replacing it would fix the damage if it was already done is another question entirely.

Best Regards
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post #17 of 87 Old 06-29-2011, 02:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philexile View Post

Hello,

To reiterate, there are two issues with the television:

1. Image Retention
2. Excessive noise in the picture

Replacing the A-BOARD was supposed to address the excessive noise in the picture.

While the tech from Advisory TV was evaluating the television, he mentioned that it also had something to do with 'clearing' the image when changing channels or updating images. In effect, if it was defective, it would have a direct impact on the image retention. Whether replacing it would fix the damage if it was already done is another question entirely.

Best Regards

I really hope you have the best outcome!
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post #18 of 87 Old 06-29-2011, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philexile View Post

Hello,

To reiterate, there are two issues with the television:

1. Image Retention
2. Excessive noise in the picture

Replacing the A-BOARD was supposed to address the excessive noise in the picture.

While the tech from Advisory TV was evaluating the television, he mentioned that it also had something to do with 'clearing' the image when changing channels or updating images. In effect, if it was defective, it would have a direct impact on the image retention. Whether replacing it would fix the damage if it was already done is another question entirely.

Best Regards

From your picture, I believe the burn-in issue will not be addressed. It so minimal I have a hard time noticing it.

I do believe the noise in your picture is a real problem though. there is simply too much noise in there.
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post #19 of 87 Old 06-30-2011, 04:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibs View Post

From your picture, I believe the burn-in issue will not be addressed. It so minimal I have a hard time noticing it.

Hello,

I wouldn't be as concerned about the image retention if it appeared after many hours of game playing - not 3 to 5 hours or if it eventually slightly disappeared with the use of white static noise and the white bar sweeps.

I'm going to want to play a video game again and this will continue to happen - damaging the picture and become more and more distracting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibs View Post

I do believe the noise in your picture is a real problem though. there is simply too much noise in there.

There sure is too much noise and Panasonic would have agreed with you twice in their first two reviews - too bad the third 'review' deemed it within spec. I'm supposed to hear back from them today, but my hopes are low.

Also, I noticed something else odd - when watching movies the screen's contrast fades and then comes back. Its usually only a second long. Who knows what the hell that is.
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post #20 of 87 Old 06-30-2011, 06:12 AM
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I still don't see anything in the pictures, but it doesn't really matter. What matters is if you can see the problems. Good Luck with getting your TV fixed.
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post #21 of 87 Old 06-30-2011, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I still don't see anything in the pictures, but it doesn't really matter. What matters is if you can see the problems. Good Luck with getting your TV fixed.

To help show you the IR, here is an image of it with the levels boosted by 20%. This better represents what I'm seeing on the screen:



Again, this is after 3 to 5 hours (max) of playing one video game. The bigger issue is that this will continue to happen and the white sweep and tv static has NO EFFECT on it. This looks just as bad as it did a month ago. I ran sweeps and static for weeks and weeks. Simply: it will get worse.

The noise is pretty evident, so I'm not sure how you're not seeing it. I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate though.

I'll update later today once I hear from Panasonic.
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post #22 of 87 Old 06-30-2011, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philexile View Post

To help show you the IR, here is an image of it with the levels boosted by 20%. This better represents what I'm seeing on the screen:



Again, this is after 3 to 5 hours (max) of playing one video game. The bigger issue is that this will continue to happen and the white sweep and tv static has NO EFFECT on it. This looks just as bad as it did a month ago. I ran sweeps and static for weeks and weeks. Simply: it will get worse.

The noise is pretty evident, so I'm not sure how you're not seeing it. I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate though.

I'll update later today once I hear from Panasonic.

it's more noticeable but you are putting the TV in a situation to see them. Gray backgroup will make it works. It's sure noticeable though, and I hope you are aware there is an option in Fallout to "dim" the GUI so it's not as hard on the TV.

The real question is, do you see it from your normal seating distance while watching regular TV. This is usually where burn in are considered an issue.
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post #23 of 87 Old 06-30-2011, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibs View Post

it's more noticeable but you are putting the TV in a situation to see them.

Gray is used a lot in television and movies. Again, this is after 3-5 hours of gameplay and it doesn't disappear at all. That isn't a good sign and its an indication that the TV is defective. My friend has the 42" model and plays games all afternoon sometimes - much longer than 5 hours. There is zero image retention in his case. His TV also doesn't show excessive noise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibs View Post

I hope you are aware there is an option in Fallout to "dim" the GUI so it's not as hard on the TV.

Yes, I read about that after the fact. I haven't played any games before or since this happened though. I've been working on trying (in vain) to fix it with wipes/tv static noise and full-screen content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibs View Post

The real question is, do you see it from your normal seating distance while watching regular TV. This is usually where burn in are considered an issue.

Yes, as stated in my post yesterday, I noticed it very clearly when watching 2001 on Blu-Ray and at various times during other films/TV shows.

-------

UPDATE FROM PANASONIC:

They are going to pickup the TV to review it. The way it was explained to me was that they had the model number's confused - the last tech that reviewed my case thought I had a Panasonic Viera TC-P50S2. I find that confusing considering that I sent the sales receipt and multiple emails with the model number clearly referenced. I also registered the TV, which is the only reason I'm getting any support - it is under warranty.

It was further explained to me that the noise would be acceptable on an S2, but not a GT25. Again, that confuses me.

We'll see how it goes and I'll be sure to update as things progress.
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post #24 of 87 Old 06-30-2011, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philexile View Post

Gray is used a lot in television and movies. Again, this is after 3-5 hours of gameplay and it doesn't disappear at all. That isn't a good sign and its an indication that the TV is defective. My friend has the 42" model and plays games all afternoon sometimes - much longer than 5 hours. There is zero image retention in his case. His TV also doesn't show excessive noise.



Yes, I read about that after the fact. I haven't played any games before or since this happened though. I've been working on trying (in vain) to fix it with wipes/tv static noise and full-screen content.



Yes, as stated in my post yesterday, I noticed it very clearly when watching 2001 on Blu-Ray and at various times during other films/TV shows.

-------

UPDATE FROM PANASONIC:

They are going to pickup the TV to fix it. The way it was explained to me was that they had the model number's confused - the last tech that reviewed my case thought I had a Panasonic Viera TC-P50S2. I find that confusing considering that I sent the sales receipt and multiple emails with the model number clearly referenced. I also registered the TV, which is the only reason I'm getting any support - it is under warranty.

It was further explained to me that the noise would be acceptable on an S2, but not a GT25. Again, that confuses me.

We'll see how it goes and I'll be sure to update as things progress.

sorry about your ordeal.
I am really glad Panny
is going to help after all.
The last update I read was when it became a
in tolerance deal. willy.
And yes, acceptable on a lessor model?
good luck.

Loving D65
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post #25 of 87 Old 06-30-2011, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post

sorry about your ordeal.
I am really glad Panny
is going to help after all.

That remains to be seen. I'll believe it when the TV is completely fixed and sitting in my living room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post

The last update I read was when it became a
in tolerance deal. willy.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post

And yes, acceptable on a lessor model?

I guess so. That seems really odd to me. I thought lesser models had less features - like 3D - not poorer picture quality.
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post #26 of 87 Old 06-30-2011, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by philexile View Post

I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

I thought at first Panny said your TV was broke and sent a tech?
Tech said it was intolerance?
Then Panny said to bad?
Now Panny admits they were thinking it was a lesser model?

I agree that a "lesser model" is a poor excuse.

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post #27 of 87 Old 06-30-2011, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I thought at first Panny said your TV was broke and sent a tech?
Tech said it was intolerance?
Then Panny said to bad?
Now Panny admits they were thinking it was a lesser model?

I agree that a "lesser model" is a poor excuse.

I guess I don't know what you mean by intolerance.

Advisory TV is scheduled to pick it up tomorrow to evaluate and fix the problems, whatever they may be.

The problem is that this is a twofold issue: excessive noise and image retention. I believe the image retention to be a result of the TV operating out of spec. However, Panasonic doesn't warranty image retention and I'm not sure if they would even if it was due to a faulty component.

Maybe they will shock me and fix the whole thing. So far though, despite the representative's I've dealt with at Panasonic being very nice, the company itself hasn't followed through on anything. i.e. - saying "we will take responsibility for and fix both of the issues you are having with your TV in timely fashion" So far its just been saying one thing, then doing another or just changing their mind entirely.
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post #28 of 87 Old 06-30-2011, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by philexile View Post

I guess I don't know what you mean by intolerance.

Advisory TV is scheduled to pick it up tomorrow to evaluate and fix the problems, whatever they may be.

The problem is that this is a twofold issue: excessive noise and image retention. I believe the image retention to be a result of the TV operating out of spec. However, Panasonic doesn't warranty image retention and I'm not sure if they would even if it was due to a faulty component.

Maybe they will shock me and fix the whole thing. So far though, despite the representative's I've dealt with at Panasonic being very nice, the company itself hasn't followed through on anything. i.e. - saying "we will take responsibility for and fix both of the issues you are having with your TV in timely fashion" So far its just been saying one thing, then doing another or just changing their mind entirely.

Sorry to hear about all the aggravation you are going through, especially since you invested in a high end set. Personally, due to built in obsolescence and quality control issues these days, I rather not invest a lot of money for a new TV. Forget about extended warranty's and the best of the best, if it breaks, or there is something new on the horizon, I just dump the old one and buy another throw away set. Me any my brother in law got a super deal on a couple of C2's. They are real work horses. We've had these sets for over a year. No rising or floating blacks, no fluctuating brightness, and although we do get temporary IR it's never been a problem. I admit I'm not a gamer, but my brother in law's kids are and I do watch a lot of sports. Hope everything works out for the best.


Regards,
Ian

The best way to succeed in life is to act on the advice you give to others

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post #29 of 87 Old 06-30-2011, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Ian,

Thank you for your post. I agree with most of what your saying, but I JUST bought this set in late February - which is why I'm really fighting this. If this had happened two years down the road, that would be another story.

I have no problem with temporary image retention (the kind that disappears over time), however, this is very, very permanent - again, one of the reasons I'm pushing Panasonic for answers and for them to own up and fix the problem. I still can't believe that it hasn't faded at all. I ran that static and wipes for days on end.

What are the C2's you're referring to?

Best Regards,
Phil


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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Sorry to hear about all the aggravation you are going through, especially since you invested in a high end set. Personally, due to built in obsolescence and quality control issues these days, I rather not invest a lot of money for a new TV. Forget about extended warranty's and the best of the best, if it breaks, or there is something new on the horizon, I just dump the old one and buy another throw away set. Me any my brother in law got a super deal on a couple of C2's. They are real work horses. We've had these sets for over a year. No rising or floating blacks, no fluctuating brightness, and although we do get temporary IR it's never been a problem. I admit I'm not a gamer, but my brother in law's kids are and I do watch a lot of sports. Hope everything works out for the best.


Regards,
Ian

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post #30 of 87 Old 06-30-2011, 11:18 AM
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Best Regards

Where is the IR?
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