Panasonic ST30 DIY Calibration and Settings Thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1413 Old 02-29-2012, 12:45 PM
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thank you gremmy for posting your settings..
I was not happy with my 65st30 and called amazon for a return and tried your settings and the picture looks great and now debating should i return and wait for st50 or we can tweak the st30 to bring it's hidden potential. decisions...decisions....
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post #542 of 1413 Old 02-29-2012, 01:10 PM
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Those of you who tried my settings and liked them are experiencing the power of GAMMA.

After several more measurements, here's what I noticed: With black extension at 5, black level at 74, and gamma set to 2.2, the ACTUAL GAMMA measurement drops from 2.2 to 2.1

A few days ago, I calibrated at 2.0 and didn't like how flat it made the image (although it was for the first time bright enough).

And at 2.2, it's too dark overall.

But what I've done with these settings is to backdoor may way into 2.1, unbeknownst to me until I broke out my meter.

I've got an older video processor coming in the mail which will allow me to tweak gamma perfectly at whatever setting I like, plus I should be able to make substantial improvement to the color tracking. Then we'll see what's what.
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post #543 of 1413 Old 02-29-2012, 03:02 PM
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gremmy, are you seeing the issue with the pixel orbiter border that I'm talking about with the brightness that high?

also, im seeing dithering that's visible from viewing distance at 0% if I do anything above 68 brightness or so with BE at 5, and anything below 73-74 starts crushing blacks. Its hard comparing our sets since yours apparently has a light output issue, but on my set, setting the BE and the brightness to levels that don't crush the blacks is clearly raising the black level.

HTPC: I3 2100, Radeon 6950.
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post #544 of 1413 Old 02-29-2012, 03:16 PM
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Why do you use pixel orbiter with Size 2? The black line drives me crazy. I prefer to either use Size 1 (overscan) with the pixel orbiter enabled, or Size 2 (1:1) with it disabled so that those black lines never appear.
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post #545 of 1413 Old 02-29-2012, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tfoltz View Post

Why do you use pixel orbiter with Size 2? The black line drives me crazy. I prefer to either use Size 1 (overscan) with the pixel orbiter enabled, or Size 2 (1:1) with it disabled so that those black lines never appear.

Its not a huge deal really, i can turn it off to watch stuff. I usually leave it on because the border isn't visible with the typical mid 50's brightness on my set. I also use a computer on my screen quite a bit. Not that it really matters that much, I don't use custom anymore for most stuff as mid and high present banding issues in certain skin tones and Cinema puts out more light than low panel. Consider yourself lucky if you haven't yet noticed the banding.

HTPC: I3 2100, Radeon 6950.
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post #546 of 1413 Old 02-29-2012, 03:20 PM
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My current setup:

Using DVE video slides and Avatar as a reference:

Custom

Contrast 80
Brightness 73
Color 62
Tint 0
Sharpness 75
Color Temp Normal
Color Mgmt Off
CATS off
Video NR off
Mosquito NR Off
Motion Smoother off
Black Level Black

Right now I have the pro settings at normal but I still want to play around with it it. I like the skin tones so far (some can be a bit red). I am not sure if I am happy with how bright the screen is, contrast and brightness are inverted when I use the DVE slides (more contrast/less brightness etc...) Going to see how it works out.

Avatar looks really nice with these settings, everything pops. The only thing is that i notice a bit more detail in vivid mode, haven't figured out how to bring that back in my mode.

Also changing over to warm1 looks good too but i like the cooler look.
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post #547 of 1413 Old 02-29-2012, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

Those of you who tried my settings and liked them are experiencing the power of GAMMA.

After several more measurements, here's what I noticed: With black extension at 5, black level at 74, and gamma set to 2.2, the ACTUAL GAMMA measurement drops from 2.2 to 2.1

A few days ago, I calibrated at 2.0 and didn't like how flat it made the image (although it was for the first time bright enough).

And at 2.2, it's too dark overall.

But what I've done with these settings is to backdoor may way into 2.1, unbeknownst to me until I broke out my meter.

I've got an older video processor coming in the mail which will allow me to tweak gamma perfectly at whatever setting I like, plus I should be able to make substantial improvement to the color tracking. Then we'll see what's what.

I really look forward to seeing your findings and fine tuned settings.

Russell
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post #548 of 1413 Old 02-29-2012, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

gremmy, are you seeing the issue with the pixel orbiter border that I'm talking about with the brightness that high?

also, im seeing dithering that's visible from viewing distance at 0% if I do anything above 68 brightness or so with BE at 5, and anything below 73-74 starts crushing blacks. Its hard comparing our sets since yours apparently has a light output issue, but on my set, setting the BE and the brightness to levels that don't crush the blacks is clearly raising the black level.

I don't see the pixel orbiter issue... I'm thinking this is related to the fact that my settings do not have the same result on your set.
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post #549 of 1413 Old 02-29-2012, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

I don't see the pixel orbiter issue... I'm thinking this is related to the fact that my settings do not have the same result on your set.

I imagine its related to the differing ftl levels between our sets. Black extension isn't something that can be used on my set without either raising the black level or crushing the blacks. What are your black level readings? I'll be pretty surprised if its below .01.

HTPC: I3 2100, Radeon 6950.
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post #550 of 1413 Old 02-29-2012, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

I imagine its related to the differing ftl levels between our sets. Black extension isn't something that can be used on my set without either raising the black level or crushing the blacks. What are your black level readings? I'll be pretty surprised if its below .01.

I don't trust my meter down that low, so I have no idea how low my black levels are. But yes, it does raise the black level. The picture was so dim before, especially in dark scenes, that the difference is an improvement.

It has been suggested that the difference in ftL between my set and others is merely a product of the window patterns I am using and that if I used the 10% windows, my ftL readings would go up. If that's true, then the problem is endemic to the entire ST30 line, since I've been able to measure a true 50 ftL on the older Panny plasma sitting upstairs using the same exact window patterns that I'm using on the ST30 to obtain these anemic readings. Whether the issue is mine or everyone's, I have no idea. Some people don't seem to mind, while others do. Whether the differences are a matter of personal taste or objectively measurable display attributes I do not know.
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post #551 of 1413 Old 02-29-2012, 08:18 PM
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Guess I'll close out my recent messages about using my i1Display Pro to calibrate my P60ST30. Bottom line is it's a no go.

The "i1Display Pro" is the equivalent of an "i1Display 3". Actually it is an "i1Display 3" as it shows up in Windows Devices as an "i1Display 3" but for some reason they decided to package it as an "i1Display Pro".

The "Retail" version of the "i1Display Pro" will ONLY work with X-rite's i1Profiler Monitor Calibration Software, and will NOT work with ANY 3rd party software... not CalMan, ChromaPure or even ColorHCFR.

In the case of CalMan or ChromaPure, if you want to use an "i1Display Pro", you need to purchase a licensed "OEM" version of the meter from them directly and obviously what you're doing is purchasing a package that includes both the meter and their software.

In the case of ColorHCFR, you're out of luck. They're not going to pay for a licensing agreement for free software, and updating ColorHCFR to work with the Retail version is breaking X-rite's licensing agreement.

Mine will be going back to Amazon. Finding this out after purchasing the meter was basically a kick in the pants by X-rite.
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post #552 of 1413 Old 02-29-2012, 09:33 PM
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Are you completely sure? With my i1display LT, I had to get a driver from the installation of the i1 Diagnostic program, and copy it to the ColorHCFR folder before it would work.

HTPC: I3 2100, Radeon 6950.
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post #553 of 1413 Old 02-29-2012, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

I don't trust my meter down that low, so I have no idea how low my black levels are. But yes, it does raise the black level. The picture was so dim before, especially in dark scenes, that the difference is an improvement.

It has been suggested that the difference in ftL between my set and others is merely a product of the window patterns I am using and that if I used the 10% windows, my ftL readings would go up. If that's true, then the problem is endemic to the entire ST30 line, since I've been able to measure a true 50 ftL on the older Panny plasma sitting upstairs using the same exact window patterns that I'm using on the ST30 to obtain these anemic readings. Whether the issue is mine or everyone's, I have no idea. Some people don't seem to mind, while others do. Whether the differences are a matter of personal taste or objectively measurable display attributes I do not know.


That's likely the case. With the smallest APL windows, i get 30 ftl with cinema, yet with the regular windows i get 24 ftl. I didn't even bother with the fields, it would probably be 18 or something.

Also, which meter are you using? My i1 Display LT seems to read low enough, it was showing .0058, and that seems to be in line with what pros have gotten.

HTPC: I3 2100, Radeon 6950.
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post #554 of 1413 Old 03-01-2012, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65Cobra427SC View Post

The "Retail" version of the "i1Display Pro" will ONLY work with X-rite's i1Profiler Monitor Calibration Software, and will NOT work with ANY 3rd party software... not CalMan, ChromaPure or even ColorHCFR.

Its my understanding that AgryllCMS does support both OEM and retail versions of the i1D3. So, its possible in the near future that HCFR will support it.

Also, your statement about Calman is incorrect. I have the retail version of the i1D3 and it definitely works with Calman. Chromapure it wont (because they didn't pay the license fee), and the suggestion from them when I queried this was to return the meter and buy the OEM meter through them.
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post #555 of 1413 Old 03-01-2012, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

That's likely the case. With the smallest APL windows, i get 30 ftl with cinema, yet with the regular windows i get 24 ftl. I didn't even bother with the fields, it would probably be 18 or something.

Also, which meter are you using? My i1 Display LT seems to read low enough, it was showing .0058, and that seems to be in line with what pros have gotten.

D-Nice was getting around .039 on average with the 60/65" ST30/GT30. The smallers sizes have higher MLLs.

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post #556 of 1413 Old 03-01-2012, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

That's likely the case. With the smallest APL windows, i get 30 ftl with cinema, yet with the regular windows i get 24 ftl. I didn't even bother with the fields, it would probably be 18 or something.

Also, which meter are you using? My i1 Display LT seems to read low enough, it was showing .0058, and that seems to be in line with what pros have gotten.

I can check black level next time I do readings and report back. I am using the i1 Display LT. Black level has been the least of my concerns up to this point.

If the window sizes are indeed the difference between my measurements and the pro measurements I've seen, then the ST30 line has a SERIOUS problem with ABL, much moreso than previous plasmas I have owned.
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post #557 of 1413 Old 03-01-2012, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

Are you completely sure? With my i1display LT, I had to get a driver from the installation of the i1 Diagnostic program, and copy it to the ColorHCFR folder before it would work.

The "i1Display LT" is the equivalent of an "i1Display 2" and X-rite's current licensing agreement doesn't apply to their older models. I didn't realize what the problem was until I couldn't get my "i1Display Pro" to work with ColorHFCR after numerous attempts at using various versions of the driver, including the one from the i1Diagnostic program.

Obviously X-rite wasn't satisfied with the money they made off the additional sales of the hardware to people who were using it to calibrate their TV's. As a result they designed the "i1Display Pro/3" to restrict access so 3rd party software doesn't see the meter.

It's likely not going to be long before someone figures out how to get around this, but in the meantime, I thought I would be able to limit my cost to the price of the meter by using ColorHCFR for free, and that's not the case with this particular meter.

BTW, I have no idea if any of this applies to the X-rite ColorMonkey but I don't plan to go there anyway. Personally it would serve them right if they lost sales due to their current tactics and at a minimum I see lots of returns from users like me.
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post #558 of 1413 Old 03-01-2012, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65Cobra427SC View Post

The "i1Display LT" is the equivalent of an "i1Display 2" and X-rite's current licensing agreement doesn't apply to their older models. I didn't realize what the problem was until I couldn't get my "i1Display Pro" to work with ColorHFCR after numerous attempts at using various versions of the driver, including the one from the i1Diagnostic program.

Obviously X-rite wasn't satisfied with the money they made off the additional sales of the hardware to people who were using it to calibrate their TV's. As a result they designed the "i1Display Pro/3" to restrict access so 3rd party software doesn't see the meter.

It's likely not going to be long before someone figures out how to get around this, but in the meantime, I thought I would be able to limit my cost to the price of the meter by using ColorHCFR for free, and that's not the case with this particular meter.

BTW, I have no idea if any of this applies to the X-rite ColorMoney but I don't plan to go there anyway. Personally it would serve them right if they lost sales due to their current tactics and at a minimum I see lots of returns from users like me.

I agree with you; this is a serious bush league move by X-Rite. People who are serious enough about the hobby (or their profession as photographer or calibrator or whatever) to buy expensive software will most likely ALSO be buying a spectroradiometer, not an inexpensive colorimeter like this (or may own both). To me it seems like X-Rite wants to eliminate an entire buying segment from their balance sheets. Not too smart.

I don't know if they still have them, but I purchased my LT from Amazon just a few weeks ago.
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post #559 of 1413 Old 03-01-2012, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ascl View Post

Its my understanding that AgryllCMS does support both OEM and retail versions of the i1D3. So, its possible in the near future that HCFR will support it.

Also, your statement about Calman is incorrect. I have the retail version of the i1D3 and it definitely works with Calman. Chromapure it wont (because they didn't pay the license fee), and the suggestion from them when I queried this was to return the meter and buy the OEM meter through them.

Thanks for the input and I apologize for the error.

I don't know anything about Agryll CMS other than it's a command line based program, but apparently there are 3rd party front ends that work with the program. I may have to check into that more.

According to SpectraCal's Hardware Support page, CalMAN PC (monitors) and CalMAN DIY (displays) will work with the Retail version of the "i1Display Pro". Their CalMAN DIY Software Only package is $199. It looks like their CalMAN PC Software package is only available as an add-on for CalMAN 4 owners for an additional $99.

Some items were vague so I sent them an email for additional information, however I'm not thrilled about spending another $200 on top of the $250 I paid for the meter to calibrate my display.

As far as ColorHCFR is concerned, it's not under regular development so the issues are if and when an update will come out to get it to work with the Retail version of the "i1Display Pro".

They do have a forum which may provide more recent information, but it's in French only...

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=1361

Maybe someone who knows French can take a look, or I could try reading pages after a Google translation at some point.

I will either begin or jump to a separate thread later today because I don't want to take this thread off topic. I'll post here where I decided to continue this issue, just in case anyone is interested.
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post #560 of 1413 Old 03-01-2012, 11:27 AM
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HCFR has been forked and is under development:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1393853

... which was the reason why I mentioned ArgyllCMS, sorry I really didn't make that clear did I? The current plan with the HCFR fork is to use Argyll as the back end for supporting meter's. Basically once the work is done, any meter supported by Argyll will work in HCFR.

I agree the calman website can be a bit misleading... I think I did the same thing (email them for clarification), because I wanted to be sure. And yes, the extra 200 bucks sucks, but the software really is pretty decent. I don't really like the way the work flows are locked down based on license, but I am happy with the software.
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post #561 of 1413 Old 03-01-2012, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

Those of you who tried my settings and liked them are experiencing the power of GAMMA.

After several more measurements, here's what I noticed: With black extension at 5, black level at 74, and gamma set to 2.2, the ACTUAL GAMMA measurement drops from 2.2 to 2.1

A few days ago, I calibrated at 2.0 and didn't like how flat it made the image (although it was for the first time bright enough).

And at 2.2, it's too dark overall.

But what I've done with these settings is to backdoor may way into 2.1, unbeknownst to me until I broke out my meter.

I've got an older video processor coming in the mail which will allow me to tweak gamma perfectly at whatever setting I like, plus I should be able to make substantial improvement to the color tracking. Then we'll see what's what.

I am really loving these settings you provided. I wonder if you made any further tweaks. Thanks again.

Russell
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post #562 of 1413 Old 03-01-2012, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

Those of you who tried my settings and liked them are experiencing the power of GAMMA.

After several more measurements, here's what I noticed: With black extension at 5, black level at 74, and gamma set to 2.2, the ACTUAL GAMMA measurement drops from 2.2 to 2.1

A few days ago, I calibrated at 2.0 and didn't like how flat it made the image (although it was for the first time bright enough).

And at 2.2, it's too dark overall.

But what I've done with these settings is to backdoor may way into 2.1, unbeknownst to me until I broke out my meter.

I've got an older video processor coming in the mail which will allow me to tweak gamma perfectly at whatever setting I like, plus I should be able to make substantial improvement to the color tracking. Then we'll see what's what.

Black level at 74? Does that mean you have Dark selected for Black Level under Advanced Picture?
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post #563 of 1413 Old 03-01-2012, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

I am very reluctant to share these as my honest feeling is that it only encourages an exercise in futility. What I mean is that the settings on my set will not work on your set. Furthermore, they may or may not get you any closer than your OTB settings, and you'll never be able to tell without a meter of your own, even if you like my settings visually.

In the interest of being a team player, I'll share my settings. However, if you're serious about this, you really should invest in a meter. Copying settings is not a reliable way to calibrate any display.

--Picture menu
Picture mode: Custom
Contrast: +80
Brightness: +73
Color: +47
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 0
Color temp: Warm 1
Color mgmt: Off [grayed out]
Photo enhancement: [grayed out]
C.A.T.S.: Off
Video NR: Off

-- Pro settings submenu
Color space: Normal
W/B high R: -8
W/B high G: +2
W/B high B: -13
W/B low R: +5
W/B low G: 0
W/B low B: +2
Black extension: +5 (the magic setting on my set)
Gamma adjustment: 2.2
Panel brightness: MED
Contour emphasis: Off
AGC: 0

Great info here as I find D-Nice's settings far too dim on my set.

I am currently running the Plasma TV Buyer's guide settings and they work well.

Question before trying your settings; do you have Block NR "OFF" Mosquito NR "OFF" and Black level on "LIGHT" as they do?

Thanks for all your hard work.
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post #564 of 1413 Old 03-01-2012, 04:39 PM
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I just got my 60 inch ST30 from Costco.

The picture is beautiful, but a little darker than I thought it would be. Right now, I like Cinema with Brightness turned up a bit and a variation of the Custom/Mid Panel/Photo settings people have posted in this thread.

My main complaint is the glare. I knew all Plasmas have glare, but did not realize how distracting it would be (especially with the louver filter). I am coming from a matte screen (Samsung DLP) and the reflections in dark scenes is very distracting. I am adjusting to it though. Hopefully my tolerance for glare increases.

Can someone link to the CNET settings? I was curious to try them. I cannot find them in this thread, and I cannot seem to find them on the CNET review page for this model.
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post #565 of 1413 Old 03-02-2012, 12:35 AM
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Answers to questions:

Black level is set to light.

The various noise reduction settings are turned off.

Hopefully my VP will be here on Saturday so I can see what a proper gamma and color can do. I might even try calibrating on high if I can get that gamma straightened out.
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post #566 of 1413 Old 03-02-2012, 06:43 AM
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Gremmy,

What color issues were you having? Can you post your grayscale/CIE/dE chart...unless you posted it already, then sorry.

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post #567 of 1413 Old 03-02-2012, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ascl View Post

HCFR has been forked and is under development:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1393853

... which was the reason why I mentioned ArgyllCMS, sorry I really didn't make that clear did I? The current plan with the HCFR fork is to use Argyll as the back end for supporting meter's. Basically once the work is done, any meter supported by Argyll will work in HCFR.

I agree the calman website can be a bit misleading... I think I did the same thing (email them for clarification), because I wanted to be sure. And yes, the extra 200 bucks sucks, but the software really is pretty decent. I don't really like the way the work flows are locked down based on license, but I am happy with the software.


Thanks for the additional info... haven't read beyond the first post yet but will read the entire thread later today. Just knowing one of their primary intentions is to use the code/drivers from Argyll CMS, which does support my meter, makes all the difference in the world.

Amazon already gave me a return authorization but I haven't shipped it back yet... so I'll be holding off.

Thanks again.

EDIT...

ColorHCFR Update: Turns out the first version with the new code was put out last night and a download link added to Post #1 at the above thread. Won't get to test it until tonight but it's supposed to work with my i1Display Pro, and without using the EyeOne.dll driver.

Not sure what else is new now, but anyone else using ColorHCFR may want to think about trying this newer version at some point. I still need to read the entire thread but there will be other improvements in the program itself and they are asking for suggestions. You might want to take advantage of this gremmy.
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post #568 of 1413 Old 03-02-2012, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Gremmy,

What color issues were you having? Can you post your grayscale/CIE/dE chart...unless you posted it already, then sorry.

Severe over luminescence of the green primary is the biggest problem.

Also, depending upon the gamma, there are various saturation issues with the primaries: green undersaturation is the biggest issue.

I'll try to post pics later.
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post #569 of 1413 Old 03-02-2012, 09:04 AM
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Hopefully my VP will be here on Saturday so I can see what a proper gamma and color can do. I might even try calibrating on high if I can get that gamma straightened out.

I will be very interested in seeing how your calibrating on high works out. I have been using your settings on my 55st30 as a base (thanks for posting them!) except mainly for differences to the tint and white balances (to control my green tint). So far I am very happy with the settings, and during further playing around, I noticed that switching to high seemed to brighten things, and did not seem to destroy the colors and PQ (I need to test more). It would make me *really* happy if switching to high when desired turns out to be a all right.

Wayne
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post #570 of 1413 Old 03-02-2012, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ultraviolet353 View Post

I just got my 60 inch ST30 from Costco.

The picture is beautiful, but a little darker than I thought it would be. Right now, I like Cinema with Brightness turned up a bit and a variation of the Custom/Mid Panel/Photo settings people have posted in this thread.

My main complaint is the glare. I knew all Plasmas have glare, but did not realize how distracting it would be (especially with the louver filter). I am coming from a matte screen (Samsung DLP) and the reflections in dark scenes is very distracting. I am adjusting to it though. Hopefully my tolerance for glare increases.

Can someone link to the CNET settings? I was curious to try them. I cannot find them in this thread, and I cannot seem to find them on the CNET review page for this model.

I don't think you ever get use to glare. Better to think about room adjustments that reduce our eliminate the glare.
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