Plasma Burn-in and 100,000 Hour Life Displays - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 20 Old 06-01-2011, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Michael2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 894
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
I am wondering how burn-in occurs on a plasma with a 100,000 hour life (such as the Panasonics).

Let's say you left something on the screen for 100 hours straight (four days). That would be 1/1000 of the phosphors' life, and since the end of life is calculated at 50% brightness, it would result in a brightness reduction of 1/2000 (compared to other pixels which would have to be completely off). Would that be detectable?

Michael
Michael2000 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 Old 06-01-2011, 02:47 PM
 
Acid Snow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 571
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Measurable with instruments, probably. ...Noticeable by eye (excluding obvious signs of IR), probably not. Even a Pioneer KURO would show severe amounts of IR after 100hrs [of the same image]. The very nature of IR is the visible difference between neighboring pixels. If half the screen was white and the other black, its safe to assume that the white half aged more than the black half, because white requires far more energy to display.
Acid Snow is offline  
post #3 of 20 Old 06-01-2011, 03:09 PM
Advanced Member
 
Dierkdr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 849
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Plasma screens have "traditionally" - meaning back in the olden days, say around 2004 - been considered to be most subject to image retention / unequal aging during the first 100 - 200 hours of usage. And it seems common advice to "age" your new panel for at least 100 hours before spending $$ on a Professional Calibration.

Still have a copy of an old Panasonic FAQ which states:
"When your plasma TV is initially installed, the first 100 hours of use is known as the "break-in period." During this time, to minimize any risk of image retention, you should:...." (fill screen, reduce brightness, avoid stationary images...)
AND:
"Burn-in," or image retention, is an uneven aging of the phosphors in a display device, can occur on any display that uses phosphors to generate an image, including tube TVs, projection TVs that use CRTs, and plasma TVs. Such uneven aging happens when bright, static images are left onscreen for an extended period of time, which can leave a visible "shadow" effect.

Improvements in panel service life to over 60,000 hours have minimized the risk of image retention. In addition, screen savers, pixel shifting, and brightness level adjustments can dramatically reduce any chance of image retention. Use common sense when it comes to your plasma TV; don't pause video games or watch TV stations with station logos onscreen for long periods of time, and use one of the many display calibration DVDs available today for properly setting brightness and contrast.

The rule of thumb: if you don't worry about your traditional tube TV, you don't have to worry about a Panasonic plasma TV."


REMEMBER: this is an older document (note the "60,000 hours" service life referenced!). At the same time, we helped middle daughter & her husband select a Samsung plasma earlier this year, and the owners manual for it did contain a section about avoiding static images & non-full-screen material....

FWIW, YMMV, & so on....
Dierkdr is offline  
post #4 of 20 Old 06-01-2011, 04:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mailiang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Springsteen Country
Posts: 6,646
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Liked: 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Snow View Post

Measurable with instruments, probably. ...Noticeable by eye (excluding obvious signs of IR), probably not. Even a Pioneer KURO would show severe amounts of IR after 100hrs [of the same image]. The very nature of IR is the visible difference between neighboring pixels. If half the screen was white and the other black, its safe to assume that the white half aged more than the black half, because white requires far more energy to display.


I agree. However, just to clarify, burn in, not image retention, refers to uneven phosphor wear. Regardless of the half life of a pdp, if you leave a static image on for too long, it will produce permanent ghosting.


Ian

The best way to succeed in life is to act on the advice you give to others

mailiang is offline  
post #5 of 20 Old 06-01-2011, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Michael2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 894
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dierkdr View Post

Plasma screens have "traditionally" - meaning back in the olden days, say around 2004 - been considered to be most subject to image retention / unequal aging during the first 100 - 200 hours of usage. And it seems common advice to "age" your new panel for at least 100 hours before spending $$ on a Professional Calibration.

Still have a copy of an old Panasonic FAQ which states:
"When your plasma TV is initially installed, the first 100 hours of use is known as the "break-in period." During this time, to minimize any risk of image retention, you should:...." (fill screen, reduce brightness, avoid stationary images...)
AND:
"Burn-in," or image retention, is an uneven aging of the phosphors in a display device, can occur on any display that uses phosphors to generate an image, including tube TVs, projection TVs that use CRTs, and plasma TVs. Such uneven aging happens when bright, static images are left onscreen for an extended period of time, which can leave a visible "shadow" effect.

Improvements in panel service life to over 60,000 hours have minimized the risk of image retention. In addition, screen savers, pixel shifting, and brightness level adjustments can dramatically reduce any chance of image retention. Use common sense when it comes to your plasma TV; don't pause video games or watch TV stations with station logos onscreen for long periods of time, and use one of the many display calibration DVDs available today for properly setting brightness and contrast.

The rule of thumb: if you don't worry about your traditional tube TV, you don't have to worry about a Panasonic plasma TV."


REMEMBER: this is an older document (note the "60,000 hours" service life referenced!). At the same time, we helped middle daughter & her husband select a Samsung plasma earlier this year, and the owners manual for it did contain a section about avoiding static images & non-full-screen material....

FWIW, YMMV, & so on....

Thank you for the interesting caution from the Panasonic literature.

One thing that struck me was, "The rule of thumb: if you don't worry about your traditional tube TV, you don't have to worry about a Panasonic plasma TV."

I have a 21" CRT computer monitor that has had the same Windows XP taskbar on it for ten years. That means it has been showing the same Start button for at least 20,000 hours. Before that it had a Windows 98 taskbar on it for four years, or another 8,000 hours. It's been going since 1997 almost every day, all day. I just now checked it with full white and gray screens, and I cannot find any indication of burn-in at all, even with a magnifying glass. These old CRTs are nothing short of amazing!

Could a plasma display really do this?

Michael
Michael2000 is offline  
post #6 of 20 Old 06-01-2011, 05:15 PM
 
Acid Snow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 571
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2000 View Post

"The rule of thumb: if you don't worry about your traditional tube TV, you don't have to worry about a Panasonic plasma TV."

That quotation is totally false, probably written by some ill-informed PR-marketing person. I don't know why it was even quoted here... Unlike CRT monitors, every plasma [to date] has to deal with IR (and potentially burn-in), thus no plasma is [yet] immune to either.
Acid Snow is offline  
post #7 of 20 Old 06-01-2011, 06:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
xrox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2000 View Post

I am wondering how burn-in occurs on a plasma with a 100,000 hour life (such as the Panasonics).

Let's say you left something on the screen for 100 hours straight (four days). That would be 1/1000 of the phosphors' life, and since the end of life is calculated at 50% brightness, it would result in a brightness reduction of 1/2000 (compared to other pixels which would have to be completely off). Would that be detectable?

Michael

It is a very complicated topic because PDP image retention (short and long term) can look the same as burn-in even though they are caused by different mechanisms. Specifically, long term IR and phosphor burn-in can be indistinguishable.

In your specific example (100hr in a 100K rated display) the main component of visible burn-in will not be phosphor wear but rather long term IR. Specifically, the magnesium oxide layer is degraded and deposited onto the phosphor blocking UV light conversion and emission of visible light only in the area displaying the static image. This dark area can last many weeks or months even though the phosphor really hasn't been degraded.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
xrox is offline  
post #8 of 20 Old 06-01-2011, 09:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mailiang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Springsteen Country
Posts: 6,646
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Liked: 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

It is a very complicated topic because PDP image retention (short and long term) can look the same as burn-in even though they are caused by different mechanisms. Specifically, long term IR and phosphor burn-in can be indistinguishable.

In your specific example (100hr in a 100K rated display) the main component of visible burn-in will not be phosphor wear but rather long term IR. Specifically, the magnesium oxide layer is degraded and deposited onto the phosphor blocking UV light conversion and emission of visible light only in the area displaying the static image. This dark area can last many weeks or months even though the phosphor really hasn't been degraded.

Wow, someone here actually gets it! Can I bottle your comment? Also worth noting is that short term IR is the result of a residual electrical charge which can remain for several hours or sometimes longer.


Ian

The best way to succeed in life is to act on the advice you give to others

mailiang is offline  
post #9 of 20 Old 06-01-2011, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Michael2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 894
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Specifically, the magnesium oxide layer is degraded and deposited onto the phosphor blocking UV light conversion and emission of visible light only in the area displaying the static image. This dark area can last many weeks or months even though the phosphor really hasn't been degraded.

Thank you for the informative post.

Are the electrodes made of magnesium oxide?

Does the process of image retention subsiding include the magnesium oxide material redepositing itself back on the electrodes?

Michael
Michael2000 is offline  
post #10 of 20 Old 06-02-2011, 08:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
xrox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2000 View Post
Thank you for the informative post.

Are the electrodes made of magnesium oxide?

Does the process of image retention subsiding include the magnesium oxide material redepositing itself back on the electrodes?

Michael
Magnesium Oxide is a coating placed on top of the electrodes. It provides the following 3 essential benefits to PDP.

1 - protects the electrodes from damage due to gas discharge (plasma). Without this protective layer the electrodes would erode and the display would stop functioning quickly.

2 - provides secondary electrons that enable the gas discharge to operate at lower voltages

3 - provides exo-electrons that enable stable weak discharge and reduced discharge delay


Regarding your question about IR subsiding. IIRC long term full screen image causes the MgO (magnesium oxide) to somewhat normalize in each cell due to the cells being open to each other. This means the cell walls, electrodes, and phosphor end up with the same MgO morphology and the ghost image is no longer visible.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
xrox is offline  
post #11 of 20 Old 06-02-2011, 11:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mailiang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Springsteen Country
Posts: 6,646
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Liked: 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post
Magnesium Oxide is a coating placed on top of the electrodes. It provides the following 3 essential benefits to PDP.

1 - protects the electrodes from damage due to gas discharge (plasma). Without this protective layer the electrodes would erode and the display would stop functioning quickly.

2 - provides secondary electrons that enable the gas discharge to operate at lower voltages

3 - provides exo-electrons that enable stable weak discharge and reduced discharge delay


Regarding your question about IR subsiding. IIRC long term full screen image causes the MgO (magnesium oxide) to somewhat normalize in each cell due to the cells being open to each other. This means the cell walls, electrodes, and phosphor end up with the same MgO morphology and the ghost image is no longer visible.
I think the easiest way to tell if you have stubborn IR or burn in, if you can, is to run a white snowy screen over night for several days. If it doesn't start to fade, we have a problem Houston.


Ian

The best way to succeed in life is to act on the advice you give to others

mailiang is offline  
post #12 of 20 Old 06-02-2011, 11:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Tigerriot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,347
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
I think the easiest way to tell if you have stubborn IR or burn in, if you can, is to run a white snowy screen over night for several days. If it doesn't start to fade, we have a problem Houston.


Ian
Doesn't matter. Lots of people on this forum would still suggest it was just "stubborn image retention", and not burn in.

Tigerriot is offline  
post #13 of 20 Old 06-02-2011, 11:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mailiang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Springsteen Country
Posts: 6,646
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Liked: 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerriot View Post
Doesn't matter. Lots of people on this forum would still suggest it was just "stubborn image retention", and not burn in.
I guess that's just wishful thinking.



Ian

The best way to succeed in life is to act on the advice you give to others

mailiang is offline  
post #14 of 20 Old 06-02-2011, 11:22 AM
Advanced Member
 
Dayton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerriot View Post
Doesn't matter. Lots of people on this forum would still suggest it was just "stubborn image retention", and not burn in.
Probably, but the poster was correct in saying that one should notice a reduction in the severity of the retained image after initial attempts to "wash" the screen. It may take weeks for it to completely go away but it should get "lighter" as time passes. If it doesn't then it is probably a burn-in candidate.
Dayton is offline  
post #15 of 20 Old 06-02-2011, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Michael2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 894
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post
Magnesium Oxide is a coating placed on top of the electrodes. It provides the following 3 essential benefits to PDP.

1 - protects the electrodes from damage due to gas discharge (plasma). Without this protective layer the electrodes would erode and the display would stop functioning quickly.

2 - provides secondary electrons that enable the gas discharge to operate at lower voltages

3 - provides exo-electrons that enable stable weak discharge and reduced discharge delay


Regarding your question about IR subsiding. IIRC long term full screen image causes the MgO (magnesium oxide) to somewhat normalize in each cell due to the cells being open to each other. This means the cell walls, electrodes, and phosphor end up with the same MgO morphology and the ghost image is no longer visible.
Good information.

So, the fading of image retention then is the result of the MgO dispersing to other cells over time?

Also is MgO eroding slowly from the electrode surface as part of normal operation, and is just accelerated when a bright image is on for long periods?

Michael
Michael2000 is offline  
post #16 of 20 Old 06-02-2011, 02:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
xrox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2000 View Post

Good information.

So, the fading of image retention then is the result of the MgO dispersing to other cells over time?

Also is MgO eroding slowly from the electrode surface as part of normal operation, and is just accelerated when a bright image is on for long periods?

Michael

This is the way I understand it. Pioneer and LG have wrote several papers on this topic. What happens is the gas discharge creates high energy ions which impact the MgO. The MgO resists sputtering much better than the electrode material (that is how it protects it) but it too will sputter slilghtly and then redeposit on the walls and phosphor of the cell and other cells around it.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
xrox is offline  
post #17 of 20 Old 06-02-2011, 02:09 PM
Member
 
haloimplant's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 105
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
100 hours sounds like a long time when you talk about 4 straight days, but I think part of the problem is that the time doesn't need to be consecutive for the phosphors to wear unevenly.

For example one poster was talking about playing Madden for a few hours a day for several months. That's several hundred hours with the HUD on in the same place, and he could see a slight burn-in due to that usage.
haloimplant is offline  
post #18 of 20 Old 06-02-2011, 02:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dlplover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by haloimplant View Post

100 hours sounds like a long time when you talk about 4 straight days, but I think part of the problem is that the time doesn't need to be consecutive for the phosphors to wear unevenly.

For example one poster was talking about playing Madden for a few hours a day for several months. That's several hundred hours with the HUD on in the same place, and he could see a slight burn-in due to that usage.

I'm not sure that's entirely true. Was that poster using the set exclusively for Madden a few hours a day for several months? If Madden was the primary viewing material than it makes sense. If he was watching 4 hours of normal viewing content a day on top of that, then it would not.

Consecutive from my understanding means "on hours". I don't believe the time off has much bearing, unless we're talking about TIR due to voltage which might gradually dissipate over time if the set's off, but that will typically gradually dissipate regardless as long as you're not trying to wash with the same content that caused the IR.
dlplover is offline  
post #19 of 20 Old 04-17-2013, 11:29 AM
Advanced Member
 
SiGGy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lenexa, Kansas
Posts: 728
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Liked: 82
so, 100,000 hours to 1/2 luminance.

At what duty cycle/picture mode/contrast level did they use to come up with that number?

p.s. ya, I know... resurrecting this old dinosaur of a thread. someone linked to this old guy smile.gif

-SiGGy
SiGGy is online now  
post #20 of 20 Old 04-21-2013, 08:44 AM
Advanced Member
 
hungro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 590
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Probably torch mode:) so in movie mode the set will go beyond the 100,000 HRS. :P
hungro is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off