Is Plasma TV on deathbed? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 155 Old 06-25-2011, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

Plasma vs. LCD vs. LED: Which HDTV Type is Best? (the article was written 2 days ago so it is current)

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2387377,00.asp

the tide is definitely turning towards LED's...I've long been a plasma supporter but even I must admit that LED's are now very close to overtaking plasmas...the black level advantage of plasma is almost gone now...if they can correct their viewing angle issues then there might be a new king

This article is pure ********.

Are you talking about blacklevels or bluelevels? What about clouding? Flashlighting? Native contrast??

EdgeLED is such a crap, only place it belongs, is in a woman's house.

And Full LED? Hm, LE8500 and LX9500 with zonebanding and halos, Sony HX9 with blooming... I hove, the two Nano LEDs from LG won't be hampered by stuff like this but who knows?
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post #92 of 155 Old 06-25-2011, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

This article is pure ********.

Are you talking about blacklevels or bluelevels? What about clouding? Flashlighting? Native contrast??

EdgeLED is such a crap, only place it belongs, is in a woman's house.

And Full LED? Hm, LE8500 and LX9500 with zonebanding and halos, Sony HX9 with blooming... I hove, the two Nano LEDs from LG won't be hampered by stuff like this but who knows?

the point is that the gap is narrowing between the best plasmas and the best full array local dimming LCD's...LCD's are getting better and better every year while plasmas you could say are getting worse (the last Kuro's came out 2+ years ago and still nothing has come close to surpassing them)

the 2011 Panasonic plasmas have the annoying fluctuating brightness issue...last year had floating/rising blacks...the 2011 Samsung plasmas have the CS bug, peeling screens
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post #93 of 155 Old 06-25-2011, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

People with boobies

And apparently some small number of heterosexual males without certain physiological conditions....

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #94 of 155 Old 06-25-2011, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

the point is that the gap is narrowing between the best plasmas and the best full array local dimming LCD's...LCD's are getting better and better every year while plasmas you could say are getting worse (the last Kuro's came out 2+ years ago and still nothing has come close to surpassing them)

the 2011 Panasonic plasmas have the annoying fluctuating brightness issue...last year had floating/rising blacks...the 2011 Samsung plasmas have the CS bug, peeling screens

That's really not a fair comparison as the Kuro is still the reference set whether it be plasma or LCD. Panasonic and Samsung have both been improving their plasma sets the past couple years as the d8000 and vt30 are both as good as pretty much anything out there just as it was a couple years ago excluding the Pioneer Kuro so saying plasma is getting worse just isn't the case.
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post #95 of 155 Old 06-25-2011, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

the point is that the gap is narrowing between the best plasmas and the best full array local dimming LCD's...LCD's are getting better and better every year while plasmas you could say are getting worse (the last Kuro's came out 2+ years ago and still nothing has come close to surpassing them)

the 2011 Panasonic plasmas have the annoying fluctuating brightness issue...last year had floating/rising blacks...the 2011 Samsung plasmas have the CS bug, peeling screens

Local Dimming means "dynamic picture". Let'S say, you calibrated IRE30 for 2.22 gamma. With movies it would sometimes be 2.00, sometimes 2.50 and sometimes 2.0... it is not stable!

Then there are blooming, LED-Banding and so on.

Here in Europe we have no problems with FBr, we have firmwares for VT30 and GT30 which eliminate the problem.
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post #96 of 155 Old 06-25-2011, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by HTguru3 View Post

That's really not a fair comparison as the Kuro is still the reference set whether it be plasma or LCD. Panasonic and Samsung have both been improving their plasma sets the past couple years as the d8000 and vt30 are both as good as pretty much anything out there just as it was a couple years ago excluding the Pioneer Kuro so saying plasma is getting worse just isn't the case.

you just said in your own post that the VT30 and D8000 are not as good as the last gen Kuro which came out over 2 years ago...so that means that plasma technology has gotten worse...yes the Kuro is a reference display but that doesn't mean that you cannot build a better plasma then the 9G Kuro

Pioneer was improving on the Kuro every year when they were in the plasma market...they first came out with the 8G Kuro which was also reference at the time...then the following year they released the 9G Kuro which was even better then the 8G...so technology can get better even if you develop a so called 'reference' display

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Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

Here in Europe we have no problems with FBr, we have firmwares for VT30 and GT30 which eliminate the problem.

if you want to believe that a European firmware fixed the FBr issue then so be it...the fact is that they are built into the circuitry of the displays so every 2011 Panasonic set will have this issue...some people may not be as sensitive to it so they see it less then others but to say that Europe has a special magic version of the VT30 with no FBr is ridiculous

maybe they released a special 'placebo' firmware in Europe
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post #97 of 155 Old 06-25-2011, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

you just said in your own post that the VT30 and D8000 are not as good as the last gen Kuro which came out over 2 years ago...so that means that plasma technology has gotten worse...yes the Kuro is a reference display but that doesn't mean that you cannot build a better plasma then the 9G Kuro

The Samsung and Panasonic plasmas of today are better than the Samsung and Panasonic plasmas of yesterday. Same can be said of the LCD's by the various manufacturers. The Pioneer kuro may still be the standard but is no longer in business and irrelevant to the current improvements.
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post #98 of 155 Old 06-25-2011, 08:21 PM
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There was some discussion earlier in this thread regarding plasma power consumption. This was admittedly a pseudo scientific experiment, but I feel it gives me an idea on my Samsung PN58B860. I own an APC H15 surge suppressor/line conditioner that includes a monitor showing power consumption. After excluding a baseline 30 watts of other components in my system that the H15 showed, I turned on the TV. Without any picture, the power usage went up by 120 watts. I put on a TV program - happened to by "Law and Order". The usage generally bounced between 300 and 400 watts (above the 30 watt baseline), depending on how much lighter colors were on the screen. When the screen was mostly filled with white, it got as high as 450 watts, but this didn't happen too often. So lets say for the sake of argument when watching a normal TV show, the TV was consuming 350 watts on average. I imagine that with darker TV shows and movies the average would be a good deal less while some sporting events like golf or hockey might average higher. This was done on a 58" plasma in movie mode and calibrated using the Spears & Munsil calibration disk. This kind of usage may not be acceptable to many, but it is OK for me considering the spectacular picture. Of course, the APC could be lying to me about my power consumption
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post #99 of 155 Old 06-26-2011, 12:39 AM
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I really think the discussions we've had about power consumption and the readings taken by calibrators are more useful than your attempts to calculate averages by quickly glancing at your meter and attempting to do some computations.

No offense intended, but there is actual data out there, and very little of it suggests that 350 watts is going to be common usage even for calibrated sets.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #100 of 155 Old 06-26-2011, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I really think the discussions we've had about power consumption and the readings taken by calibrators are more useful than your attempts to calculate averages by quickly glancing at your meter and attempting to do some computations.

No offense intended, but there is actual data out there, and very little of it suggests that 350 watts is going to be common usage even for calibrated sets.

I took to heart what you said, so I thought I'd see what I could find regarding more official energy usage information on TVs. I found the CNET HDTV power consumption chart. While it doesn't contain my particular TV, it seems that their calibrated TV power consumptions for plasmas around the size of mine is within range of my not so scientific evaluation. Am I missing something? Thanks.
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post #101 of 155 Old 06-26-2011, 05:36 AM
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My 54G10 is rated around the 300 watt mark so yours sounds like it is in the ballpark, tv's of the same generation/size seem to have the same consumption levels(just my opinion). Please take no offense rogo as I appreciate all your contributions

Here is a chart I found a while ago that has some pre/post calibration usage measurements with the 50b650 and 58b850 shown.

http://reviews.cnet.com/green-tech/t...umption-chart/
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post #102 of 155 Old 06-26-2011, 07:47 AM
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Worried about using too much power with your TV panel? Then you should pay attention to this:

"
Atop TV Sets, a Power Drain That Runs Nonstop"

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/us/26cable.html?_r=1

Excerpted:

"Those little boxes that usher cable signals and digital recording capacity into televisions have become the single largest electricity drain in many American homes, with some typical home entertainment configurations eating more power than a new refrigerator and even some central air-conditioning systems. "

"One high-definition DVR and one high-definition cable box use an average of 446 kilowatt hours a year"
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post #103 of 155 Old 06-26-2011, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Worried about using too much power with your TV panel? Then you should pay attention to this:

"
Atop TV Sets, a Power Drain That Runs Nonstop"

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/us/26cable.html?_r=1

Excerpted:

"Those little boxes that usher cable signals and digital recording capacity into televisions have become the single largest electricity drain in many American homes, with some typical home entertainment configurations eating more power than a new refrigerator and even some central air-conditioning systems. "

"One high-definition DVR and one high-definition cable box use an average of 446 kilowatt hours a year"

I never did like the fact that my dvr never really shuts off, why have a power button? Nothing wrong with a standby mode of sorts. Lots of heat off that thing too.
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post #104 of 155 Old 06-26-2011, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giannie View Post

I took to heart what you said, so I thought I'd see what I could find regarding more official energy usage information on TVs. I found the CNET HDTV power consumption chart. While it doesn't contain my particular TV, it seems that their calibrated TV power consumptions for plasmas around the size of mine is within range of my not so scientific evaluation. Am I missing something? Thanks.

The current 55" will use less than 300 watts calibrated. That's not insignificantly different from a 58" using 350 watts. You're "in the ballpark", but for those people actually sensitive to differences, the current generation is 20% better than yours. So, no, you're not missing something, it's just a matter of perspective -- and the fact there is good data already out there for current TVs.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #105 of 155 Old 06-26-2011, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

if you want to believe that a European firmware fixed the FBr issue then so be it...the fact is that they are built into the circuitry of the displays so every 2011 Panasonic set will have this issue...some people may not be as sensitive to it so they see it less then others but to say that Europe has a special magic version of the VT30 with no FBr is ridiculous

maybe they released a special 'placebo' firmware in Europe

You are badly uninformed.
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post #106 of 155 Old 06-26-2011, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

And apparently some small number of heterosexual males without certain physiological conditions....

I just want to say for the record that I evaluated both PQ and general aesthetics of the set before I purchased. I was very keen to get a thin TV because I like how it looks mounted on the wall. However, if the Samsungs hadn't scored well in the PQ department, I'd likely have waited a while before getting a new set.
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post #107 of 155 Old 06-26-2011, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by whipit View Post

I never did like the fact that my dvr never really shuts off, why have a power button? Nothing wrong with a standby mode of sorts. Lots of heat off that thing too.

Mine will go into stand-by but I never use it.
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post #108 of 155 Old 06-26-2011, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by agogley View Post

Mine will go into stand-by but I never use it.

Both the DirecTV receiver and the Time Warner cable boxes never turn off (DVR especially), they just blank the signal and turn off the panel LEDs. On the DirecTV one it does that, but the TimeWarner one always has a display on it, with a "Standby" indicator, so when its "off" I just have it display the time.
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post #109 of 155 Old 06-26-2011, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Baloney. These rumors don't prove anything about PQ. This notion that PDP is automatically assumed to be superior to LCD-LED is an old worn out stereotype. For the last few years, Samsung's top of the line LED's have bested their comparable PDP's for PQ. bang for the buck, but if you are willing to shell out enough dough for a top LED, you can get PQ that beats most every currently offered plasma out there.

The ONLY Panasonic that has a fighting chance of competing with a D8000 LED is the expensive VT30. Panasonic's cheaper offerings just don't measure up. Panasonic can hang their PQ hat on one top of the line model, which isn't exactly much cheaper than the top Samsung LED's.

WOW! There are terms for ppl like you. Funny last year 6 of the top ten tvs on cnet were plasmas. I believe the first led came in at 4th place (not bad for an led). So much for only top of the line plasma beating Led. Look at any site and plasmas make up the bulk of highly recommended displays.

It's ppl like you that make and spread such rumors and falsehoods.

If your a fanboy just admit it. It's 2011 most ppl will accept you.
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post #110 of 155 Old 06-26-2011, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aydu View Post

You don't have to take any of the posts here on AVS seriously.

People made different buying decisions on cars when gas was $1.25 a gallon vs $4 today. If you think that the price of electricity is going to go down onver the next decade, you are free to think that and make your purchasing decisions accordingly.

Really??? You're comparing the cost of gas to electricity?? Really?? Gas at about $4 a gallon on a say an suv that gets 13 miles a gallon. SUVs sales are up again, not by much but still up. Maybe it is just me but when you make this comparison it makes no sense. The cost of gas on a SUV up almost Say $1-2000 a year maybe more for some. Compared to a plasma costing less than a a hundred dollars more a year? Esp when a SUV or hybrid cost much more than say a regular civic. You think the cost of electricity is going to go up 4x within the near future? How about all your electronics that sit there in standby mode? Think you wasting plenty of money there?

Led's for the same size is anywhere from $600-1000 more. So the cost of electricity you same a year will take at least 6 years to make it the same price of a plasma. Makes good sense.
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post #111 of 155 Old 06-26-2011, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Bah...nobody uses the extremely dim standard default mode on plasmas. They are especially dim so they can qualify for energy star ratings.

Of course LED's have their tv's set on the highest energy usage when they rate energy consumption huh.
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post #112 of 155 Old 06-27-2011, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

the point is that the gap is narrowing between the best plasmas and the best full array local dimming LCD's...LCD's are getting better and better every year while plasmas you could say are getting worse (the last Kuro's came out 2+ years ago and still nothing has come close to surpassing them)

Pioneer didn't have to deal with Energy Star ratings, being pushed by California and green people. If they had to comply, their current plasma models would probably be getting worse also.

Take, for example, a 42" plasma. According to Energy Star, to be Energy Star approved it has to use a maximum of 115 watts. And, by 2012, that requirement drops to a maximum of 81 watts.

It is hard to imagine how plasmas can get better, when the power it can use is being greatly reduced. Energy Star is probably what is going to kill plasma.

That which may be known of God is evident within man, for God has shown it to them, so that they are without excuse. (Romans 1:19-20)
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post #113 of 155 Old 06-27-2011, 07:36 AM
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Well, with the way plasma energy consumption works, the darker the screen content, the less wattage being consumed. So you would think the remaining plasma companies would have an increased incentive to ramp up their efforts in getting their black levels as low as possible. Killing two birds with one stone - thus providing better picture quailty AND lower energy consumption.

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #114 of 155 Old 06-27-2011, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by tomwil View Post
s.

It is hard to imagine how plasmas can get better, when the power it can use is being greatly reduced. Energy Star is probably what is going to kill plasma.
Luminous efficiency keeps rising. And even Energy Star sets can be used at higher sets (most are). I'm not sure how Energy Star is going to kill anything as it has yet to do so. There are still washing machines that are old-school top loaders with clothes-abusing agitators (and plenty of fine top loaders) coexisting with front loaders that use less energy and power.

About the only thing Energy Star kills off generally is some technology that relies on basically "pouring" power to solve a problem. For example, old school dish washers used insane amounts of electricity to dry dishes, which explains why your new one tends to be pretty challenged at drying plastic. Yet, most new dishwashers clean the dishes better.

I'm not overly worried about plasmas and Energy Star. I doubt Panasonic is either, given their commitment to green technology. But that said, if plasma can't get its power act in order and LCD improves further from here, I suspect plasma will in fact die off due to that over time. And so be it.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #115 of 155 Old 06-27-2011, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

About the only thing Energy Star kills off generally is some technology that relies on basically "pouring" power to solve a problem. For example, old school dish washers used insane amounts of electricity to dry dishes, which explains why your new one tends to be pretty challenged at drying plastic. Yet, most new dishwashers clean the dishes better.

I'm not overly worried about plasmas and Energy Star. I doubt Panasonic is either, given their commitment to green technology. But that said, if plasma can't get its power act in order and LCD improves further from here, I suspect plasma will in fact die off due to that over time. And so be it.

I don't want to derail the thread into regulation vs non-regulation argument, but not all newer appliances work better. Take newer toilets that require multiple flushes compared to the old five gallon ones. If Energy Star "kills" plasma, I, for one, am not going to lay back and just say "so be it" just because big brother wants to force TV manufacturers to be green. Forcing an overarching label like "green" on people is just another way to wrest control from the individual to the state. If you want to be green, turn down your thermostat a couple degrees. There is enough information out there to help the average person save energy without having regulations forced on them.

So Energy Star, despite their good intentions, are killing off the TV technology that arguably gives the best picture quality and largest size at the lowest price. Does this trouble anybody else, or are we going to just sit back while increasing regulations limit our choice and hamper technological development? If the tech can't keep up with regulations, and the product quality suffers, isn't that a little backwards?
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post #116 of 155 Old 06-27-2011, 02:30 PM
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Trem, all new ones don't work better. But many do. And Energy Star is imperfect, but it works. In an ideal world, the market would handle externalities without anyone needing to tell it what to do. We don't live in an ideal world.

And my main beef with your post is not that we disagree on the merits of Energy Star (we disagree a bit and agree a bit), but rather that you conclude it's killing off plasmas, but it really isn't. Your words: "So Energy Star, despite their good intentions, are killing off the TV technology that arguably gives the best picture quality and largest size at the lowest price"

Plasma sales are up. Plasma quality is up dollar for dollar. Comparisons to Kuros that cost much more money are not relevant, quite frankly. If anyone could sell a 50" TV for $6000 today, they could probably do things that would exceed Kuro picture quality. The marketplace has spoken on that.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #117 of 155 Old 06-27-2011, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Plasma sales are up. Plasma quality is up dollar for dollar. Comparisons to Kuros that cost much more money are not relevant, quite frankly. If anyone could sell a 50" TV for $6000 today, they could probably do things that would exceed Kuro picture quality. The marketplace has spoken on that.

+1. I was going to comment on this the other day. So much time is wasted on this forum (and similar forums) to comparing sets to the Kuro - and the fact is the comparison is just not relevant. It's like comparing a 2011 Ford Taurus to a 2009 Mercedes (of any class). Kuro is a completely failed business model. In 2009, Pioneer's home electronics segment lost 38.6 million Yen, the 5th straight year of losing at least 15 million Yen in that segment alone. In 2010, after scrapping the Kuro, they cut losses to just over 9 million yen, and in 2011 (we're talking in fiscal years ftr) they have rebounded the home electronics division into the black for the first time since 2004. At the end of the day, the investment in Kuro technology nearly destroyed Pioneer as a company, and people just can't seem to comprehend that Samsung, Panasonic, LG, and Sony see this and aren't about to make the same mistake. Constantly complaining that other TV's haven't reached Kuro levels is like saying that it's too bad that no car in the 50's was quite as good as the 1948 Tucker Sedan.
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post #118 of 155 Old 06-27-2011, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dte421 View Post

+1. I was going to comment on this the other day. So much time is wasted on this forum (and similar forums) to comparing sets to the Kuro - and the fact is the comparison is just not relevant. It's like comparing a 2011 Ford Taurus to a 2009 Mercedes (of any class). Kuro is a completely failed business model. In 2009, Pioneer's home electronics segment lost 38.6 million Yen, the 5th straight year of losing at least 15 million Yen in that segment alone. In 2010, after scrapping the Kuro, they cut losses to just over 9 million yen, and in 2011 (we're talking in fiscal years ftr) they have rebounded the home electronics division into the black for the first time since 2004. At the end of the day, the investment in Kuro technology nearly destroyed Pioneer as a company, and people just can't seem to comprehend that Samsung, Panasonic, LG, and Sony see this and aren't about to make the same mistake. Constantly complaining that other TV's haven't reached Kuro levels is like saying that it's too bad that no car in the 50's was quite as good as the 1948 Tucker Sedan.

I agree with the comparison part. I disagree that Kuro was a bad business model. Pioneer is a bad business model. Pioneer, hands down, has some of the best products in the market in all their segments. But they have limited outlets and strictly control the retail pricing. On top of that, they make a superior product that nobody knows about. So the average person walking in the store looking at a wall of tvs isn't going to pay for a Pioneer if they don't understand it's better. Furthermore, a lot of people are willing to pay a little more for quality. But fewer are willing to pay a lot more for quality. And therein, lies Pioneer's problem.
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post #119 of 155 Old 06-27-2011, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Trem, all new ones don't work better. But many do. And Energy Star is imperfect, but it works. In an ideal world, the market would handle externalities without anyone needing to tell it what to do. We don't live in an ideal world.

And my main beef with your post is not that we disagree on the merits of Energy Star (we disagree a bit and agree a bit), but rather that you conclude it's killing off plasmas, but it really isn't. Your words: "So Energy Star, despite their good intentions, are killing off the TV technology that arguably gives the best picture quality and largest size at the lowest price"

Plasma sales are up. Plasma quality is up dollar for dollar. Comparisons to Kuros that cost much more money are not relevant, quite frankly. If anyone could sell a 50" TV for $6000 today, they could probably do things that would exceed Kuro picture quality. The marketplace has spoken on that.

Frankly, it's the marketplace that has put pressure on PDPs. People just aren't willing to pay a lot more for quality. I firmly believe that 6 out of 10 people who walk into Best Buy are going to buy the cheapest product. Energy Star has influenced marketing and the general public's conception of what makes a good product, but that's probably a small factor in the progression of various displays.

What's kept PDP alive is that LED and LCD has gotten more expensive due to the pricing of resources needed to make these types of displays. So a 50" LED generally costs a lot more than a similarly spec'd PDP.
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post #120 of 155 Old 06-27-2011, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by agogley View Post

I agree with the comparison part. I disagree that Kuro was a bad business model. Pioneer is a bad business model. Pioneer, hands down, has some of the best products in the market in all their segments. But they have limited outlets and strictly control the retail pricing. On top of that, they make a superior product that nobody knows about. So the average person walking in the store looking at a wall of tvs isn't going to pay for a Pioneer if they don't understand it's better. Furthermore, a lot of people are willing to pay a little more for quality. But fewer are willing to pay a lot more for quality. And therein, lies Pioneer's problem.

I understand some of what you are saying - however, we're really just being semantic here. The Kuro business model was obviously designed by Pioneer, and it was perhaps as much of a failure as LaserDisc was. My principal point is that the model behind Kuro did not work. Too much money was spent on R&D, and Pioneer's pricing strategy was too severe for the average consumer, especially since they were the first company putting out 1080p displays. It led to a TERRIBLE operating margin, and an even worse operating return on assets. You can phrase it anyway you like, but there is a direct corollary between the development and subsequent release of the Kuro and the utter collapse of Pioneer's Home Electronics division, which had been profitable in 6 of the prior 7 years... and a further corollary to their departure from the HDTV business and a return to profitability. Any way you slice it, the big four TV manufacturer's are highly unlikely to repeat their mistakes (especially Sony, who learned the hard way!)
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