Auto brightness limiters (abl) in plasma sets - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 161 Old 07-20-2013, 01:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Artwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hoover, Alabama
Posts: 4,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Ken Ross: Have you ever done a secret face off for yourself between the 8500 and the Sharp Elite?

How long do you think it will be before Sharp Elite type picture quality returns in LCDs?

Do you think that we've seen the end of plasma picture quality improvement from Panasonic?

Do you think we've seen the end of plasma picture quality improvement from Samsung?

How hard--other than resolution--will it be for 4K LCD to improve on what we've seen from Samsung with the 8500--the Sharp Elite--and from Panasonic with the ZT/VT 60?

Forgive me for being pessimistic but I think we may be in for a few years of picture quality regression if flagship plasma production is ended in order to TRY to sell INFERIOR quality NON Sharp Elite type quality 4K LCD. What do you think?
Artwood is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 161 Old 07-20-2013, 02:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,944
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
I mean honestly, do you guys really need better blacks? Aren't the ST60's good enough? At this point, Panasonic needs to reduce ABL and have an OFF/ON switch or a low,med,high Option instead. And of course motion handeling, is it possible for plasma's to get CRT-good?

At this point for 2014 models i'd like to see their main focus be on delivering a 1 frame/16ms capable set for gamers and 'marketing' that for gamers, not to mention whipping out an ABL option while making their sets even brighter. LCD & LED's still have that big advantage in brightness and purewhites, panasonic needs to combat this, seeing how their blacks and color gamut are already amazing.
Ken Ross likes this.
WaveBoy is offline  
post #93 of 161 Old 07-20-2013, 02:11 PM
 
vinnie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nunya
Posts: 11,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 1002
^I'd prefer darker blacks still, for scenes that have low light output. The best Kuros are still perched atop the throne as the black level kings. ABL improvements wouldn't give me upgraditis. Catering to the LED market is not going to put Plasma back onto the road to popularity.
vinnie97 is offline  
post #94 of 161 Old 07-20-2013, 03:02 PM
Senior Member
 
PogueSquadron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 277
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
If I hardly notice ABL on a Phillips plasma from 6 or 7 years ago (it's there, but only really noticeable on say, a web page), would I really notice it on the S60?
PogueSquadron is offline  
post #95 of 161 Old 07-20-2013, 03:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,944
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Man, the Samsung 8500 seemed like the ultimate buy....With it's subtle ABL and super bright picture(which beats out the 2013 panny's)and array of picture controls. Too bad it's pushing over 50ms of input lag, otherwise it would of been a match made in heaven. There's always that ONE bloody deal breaker.lol

As is, I'm down between the 55" S60 and 55" Sony W900A LED. If i were to opt for the Sony, i'd have to wait over 3 months to get it considering it's out of my price range at $2999(currently on sale for $2799) where as with the S60 i could get in little as 2 weeks...Now, The S60 would give me better blacks & motion, but the sony's got 19ms of input lag, no ABL, an ultra bright picture, pure whites, and no IR or chance of burn in. screen clouding and back light bleeding could be an issue though. I'd like to know how much weaker the blacks on the Sony LED are vs the S60's, but i'll take this to another thread. XP
Ken Ross likes this.
WaveBoy is offline  
post #96 of 161 Old 07-20-2013, 03:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,944
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by PogueSquadron View Post

If I hardly notice ABL on a Phillips plasma from 6 or 7 years ago (it's there, but only really noticeable on say, a web page), would I really notice it on the S60?

You can't soley base ABL on one plasma, some are more aggressive than others. My S30's ABL again is pretty subtle, where as my X5 and previous LG plasma were a bit harsher. S60's on the other hand is looking pretty bad.tongue.gif
WaveBoy is offline  
post #97 of 161 Old 07-21-2013, 03:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
-Hitman-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 646
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by PogueSquadron View Post

I don't suppose any aggressive ABL is something that could be fixed with firmware?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Nope. It's inherent in the power supply.

ABL is there also to protect the internal components that now work in smaller and smaller reduced operating space (thinner flat panels), if it was disabled the display boards would probably explode/instantly fail and to meet with todays stringent power requirement regulations, all electronic equipment has to use less power today than it used to due to current energy saving regulations and hence more aggressive uses of ABL in plasma's, years ago the regulations were less stringent and so less use needed from the ABL plus the panels were bigger/thicker then.
-Hitman- is offline  
post #98 of 161 Old 07-21-2013, 04:26 AM
Advanced Member
 
tom669's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Leeds, UK
Posts: 835
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 93
ABL is only used to achieve high contrast ratios. My older Panasonic plasma only has a 90% ABL limit e.g. full white is 90% as white as 1/10th white. But I saw a recent budget Samsung plasma which had a mere 55% ABL limit -- that's nearly half light lost on full white scenes!
tom669 is offline  
post #99 of 161 Old 07-22-2013, 04:02 PM
Member
 
shenaniganz08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 53
My ABL on th 65" S64 from costco kicks in at 45%... yup you heard that right. AT 45% the white screen will no longer get any brighter frown.gif
shenaniganz08 is offline  
post #100 of 161 Old 07-22-2013, 07:01 PM
Senior Member
 
PogueSquadron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 277
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Yikes....do you play games on it?
PogueSquadron is offline  
post #101 of 161 Old 07-22-2013, 10:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,944
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by PogueSquadron View Post

Yikes....do you play games on it?

I'll admit, when the auto brightness reared it's ugly head on my X5 when playing colorful & bright titles such as Kirby's Epic Yarn, Super Mario Galaxy and the like i felt less compelled to play them. XP
still, overall i'd rather put up with it then LED/LCD motion blur(depending on the genre). Blur is the only reason why i'm not saving my pennies for the Sony W900A, otherwise it would be a done deal. Again, it may be fine if you're playing slow moving platformers, but when you're dipping into first/3rd person based titles, anything where the camera is constantly turning ect ect it's a real huge pain, i could never adjust no matter how hard i tried, and for movies it's the absolute worst.

Since Samsung in doing a firmware update and enabeling a feature that disables(then again, i think they're including a 'weak' setting) ABL, do you think it's possible that Panny would do the same? It would be nice to have ABL settings along the lines of weak, medium & strong.
WaveBoy is offline  
post #102 of 161 Old 07-23-2013, 07:48 AM
Senior Member
 
PogueSquadron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 277
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Hmm. I wonder if it may be worth hunting down an older TV with less aggressive ABL and a low input lag, if its even out there. I definitely don't notice this much on my parents' TV but I believe they got this TV before the whole TV Eco movement thing.
PogueSquadron is offline  
post #103 of 161 Old 07-23-2013, 08:00 AM
Advanced Member
 
tom669's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Leeds, UK
Posts: 835
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 93
For reference, I still love my 5 year old TH-46PZ80B. Full HD 46" plasma with very high brightness. I've got a thread on tweaking PZ80 black level down. Black level is decent but no competition for any recent plasma (still beats most LCDs though.)
tom669 is offline  
post #104 of 161 Old 07-23-2013, 10:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,944
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by PogueSquadron View Post

Hmm. I wonder if it may be worth hunting down an older TV with less aggressive ABL and a low input lag, if its even out there. I definitely don't notice this much on my parents' TV but I believe they got this TV before the whole TV Eco movement thing.

It is out there, it's called the ST30.tongue.gif
It improves on practically all of those nasty issues that are plagued with the dissapointing S30. The ST30 gives you Pro settings controls including gamma presets, color adjustments ect, it has better blacks thanks to it's Infinite Black2 panel AND it has a better panel overall > NeoPlasma, includes THX, slightly better motion handeling, an Anti glare filtre(You can take that as good or bad if it does in fact reduce calirity & depth), proper 24p mode and 3D. I''ve already mentioned this one trillion times, but you get 16ms of lag by using component cables(With color gamut set to HD, color management set to 'off', along with video & MIsquito noise both disabled. I wouldn't recommend playing SD consoles on it however, the colors for Wii games looked desaturated and the picture overall was a little on the dim side and this was in Custom with the contrast and color maxed to 100...However, PS3 games via HDMI is a completely different story...The colors seemed quite a bit richer, vibrant and saturated while boasting brighter picture overall. This is probably because HD games/bluray discs have superior color & brightness. So keep that in mind, use it for the Wii U, PS3, XBOX 360, PS4 or One. Oh and i picked up a pair of PS3 component cables to see if there was any difference in PQ vs HDMi, and there is. The PQ when using component looked softer(even when 1080i was selected), and i think the colors & brightness may have took a teeny little hit(maybe my eyes are deceiving me), either way the colors and brightness were still a lot better than playing SD content(ahem, wii)

And if the S30 is any indication, than the ST30 should also have a very subtle ABL. But again, if you want that ultra low 16ms, you're going to be limmited to Component(no 1080p for titles that support it, while selecting 1080i based on my experience raises the lag a teeny bit). Where as using HDMI ramps it up to 32ms....Which will give you nearly the exact same feel as S60's 34ms..No real difference really. Plus the S60's got better blacks, accurate color, a wider richer color gamut and better brightness(until ABL kicks in that is!)

If you live in the US, than you're in luck!
You can get the 50" or 55" on amazon for either $800 or $869. wink.gif
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=panasonic%20st30
Also even if the U50's 20ms is true, you're going to have to put up with it's agressive ABL, so the ST30 already has the advantage, plus the U50 is just as bare bones as the S30....No gamma presets, nothing.

Also, at 50" and at 10 feet away you wouldn't beable to tell the difference between a 720p and 1080p videogame. And that slightly softer picture that i'm describing by using component instead of HDMI on the PS3 was on my 60"....and at 10 feet away, so the difference would be a lot less noticeable with a 50" at the same viewing distance.tongue.gif
WaveBoy is offline  
post #105 of 161 Old 07-23-2013, 07:06 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,263
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 438 Post(s)
Liked: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Ken Ross: Have you ever done a secret face off for yourself between the 8500 and the Sharp Elite?

How long do you think it will be before Sharp Elite type picture quality returns in LCDs?

Do you think that we've seen the end of plasma picture quality improvement from Panasonic?

Do you think we've seen the end of plasma picture quality improvement from Samsung?

How hard--other than resolution--will it be for 4K LCD to improve on what we've seen from Samsung with the 8500--the Sharp Elite--and from Panasonic with the ZT/VT 60?

Forgive me for being pessimistic but I think we may be in for a few years of picture quality regression if flagship plasma production is ended in order to TRY to sell INFERIOR quality NON Sharp Elite type quality 4K LCD. What do you think?

I've certainly done A/Bs with my Elite Art, but I don't know how secret they've been. The F8500 & Elite each have their own virtues and each is great in its own right. If I had to pick one, it would be a really tough pick.

I've heard the rumors of a 4K Sharp Elite, but I don't know how true that is. It doesn't seem as if anyone else is interested in bringing full array, local dimming LEDs back, so I certainly hope Sharp will do just that. If the rumor turns out to be untrue, then it looks like we won't see Elite PQ return to LCDs for a long time.

It's hard to figure what Panasonic will do. Some rumors say they'll bring up light output to where Samsung is now and others say they're done with plasma R&D, so who knows? If they do improve their light output & ABL limitations, that would be a great step to further improve PQ, IMO. On the flip side, I suspect that Samsung will further improve black levels next year and, if so, it will be hard to nitpick on any aspect of their PQ.

I personally don't think it would be very difficult to have comparable PQ with 4K displays relative to what we're seeing with the best of the current 2K panels. But to do that, it would require the inclusion of full-array local dimming. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like many/any manufacturers have the appetite for the price point that requires. The track record of these costly panels doesn't exactly provide the incentive for them to do so. frown.gif

As for your pessimism, it's hard to argue with it as there seems to be a road-map that leads exactly to where your pointing.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #106 of 161 Old 07-23-2013, 07:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,944
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Just a quick question, when ABL does kick in does the screen ever go back to it's full brightness without having to turn the TV off and on again?
WaveBoy is offline  
post #107 of 161 Old 07-23-2013, 09:34 PM
Senior Member
 
PogueSquadron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 277
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Just a quick question, when ABL does kick in does the screen ever go back to it's full brightness without having to turn the TV off and on again?

I was under the impression that this was how ABL worked: When there's a certain amount of brightness on the screen, the ABL kicks in. When the brightness goes back down, it turns off. This is why you'll see on all plasmas, when you use an internet browser, the brightness will fluctuate as you increase and decrease the size of the window. I know you've mentioned that your ABL kicks in and doesn't go away...but are you sure that your set isn't faulty? I don't think that's supposed to happen at all. I feel like we would've heard more complaints about people watching movies and stuff. "Oh, the first half hour of the movie was great, but the rest was a dim mess." I have just never heard anything like that.
PogueSquadron is offline  
post #108 of 161 Old 07-24-2013, 09:43 AM
Advanced Member
 
-Hitman-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 646
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Abl is always there, it's variable depending on the brightness level within the image.
-Hitman- is offline  
post #109 of 161 Old 07-24-2013, 12:12 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,263
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 438 Post(s)
Liked: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Just a quick question, when ABL does kick in does the screen ever go back to it's full brightness without having to turn the TV off and on again?

Yes, the brightness will go back to where it was when the amount of white in the screen diminishes. Think of it as the brightness version of an automatic volume control (AVC). When the volume goes up (brightness in this case), the sound (brightness) is prevented from going too high. But when the volume diminishes (amount of white in the scene) the ABL releases control and the scene's proper dynamics returns.

It seems that more people are becoming aware of this and the impact it has on the picture. I'm always surprised by how many people minimize this 'feature'. What audiophile would allow his AVC to engage if he wanted to listen to music in its true dynamics? It's no different, IMO, with ABL. But we're stuck with it with plasma...but to a lesser extent, thankfully, with the F8500. smile.gif
Ken Ross is offline  
post #110 of 161 Old 07-24-2013, 01:02 PM
Senior Member
 
Cuda1169's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 391
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yes, the brightness will go back to where it was when the amount of white in the screen diminishes. Think of it as the brightness version of an automatic volume control (AVC). When the volume goes up (brightness in this case), the sound (brightness) is prevented from going too high. But when the volume diminishes (amount of white in the scene) the ABL releases control and the scene's proper dynamics returns.

It seems that more people are becoming aware of this and the impact it has on the picture. I'm always surprised by how many people minimize this 'feature'. What audiophile would allow his AVC to engage if he wanted to listen to music in its true dynamics? It's no different, IMO, with ABL. But we're stuck with it with plasma...but to a lesser extent, thankfully, with the F8500. smile.gif

Yep, definitely an issue with plasma. Proper calibration can help immensely. After my ST50 professional calibration ABL was greatly reduced and no longer an issue.
Cuda1169 is offline  
post #111 of 161 Old 07-24-2013, 03:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
tom669's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Leeds, UK
Posts: 835
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 93
ABL actually kicks in at a set percentage, for example if your set has a 90% ABL limit then you will reach peak brightness of white on 9/10th full white screen pattern (90% white 10% black.) 100% white screen will have same brightness as 9/10th white. To get around this you CAN just drop the brightness so the ABL never kicks in, but that may be too dim for normal viewing.
tom669 is offline  
post #112 of 161 Old 07-27-2013, 12:23 AM
Member
 
shenaniganz08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Ive owned the set now for about a week and here are my conclusion after owning a LED LCD (samsung and panasonic edge lit LCD's) and a plasma (65" s64)

1)If you watch Television, sports other than hockey, movies and most games then a plasma is the best choice. Watching Blade Runner on a plasma was absolutely fantastic. I have noticed that ABL almost never kicks in when watching movies or high budget animation. The reason for this is that the color pallete is a lot darker than what you find in "day to day" television.

2) If you browse the internet a lot on your television, watch hockey, watch a lot of anime, play brightly colored video games, then you will probably want an LED LCD.

I watch a lot of anime and browse the internet on my television, but for me I just could not deal with the screen uniformity issues that come from owning an LED LCD.

3) There is no perfect affordable 55-60 television. If your budget is under $2000 you will have to weigh the negatives

Plasma: ABL, less bright than LED LCD

LED: Uniformity issues, blacks are nowhere near plasma levels, Dirty screen effect (vertical or horizontal bars from the LED backlighting), some have LED that flicker on/off in dark scenes

4) If you have the budget then you can probably afford a top of the line television

Plasma: Samsung F8500 if you want a brighter television and lower gaming lag.. Panasonic ST/VT60 if you want the best blacks

LED LCD: Your only real option is to get a Direct LIT LED television with local dimming. Every other technology sucks.


Other stuff

ABL: It does not always kick in, only with very white, very yellow backgrounds. Strangely blue and green are less affected by ABL. ABL is not a permanent affect, it goes away
shenaniganz08 is offline  
post #113 of 161 Old 07-27-2013, 02:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
WaveBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,944
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

Ive owned the set now for about a week and here are my conclusion after owning a LED LCD (samsung and panasonic edge lit LCD's) and a plasma (65" s64)

1)If you watch Television, sports other than hockey, movies and most games then a plasma is the best choice. Watching Blade Runner on a plasma was absolutely fantastic. I have noticed that ABL almost never kicks in when watching movies or high budget animation. The reason for this is that the color pallete is a lot darker than what you find in "day to day" television.

2) If you browse the internet a lot on your television, watch hockey, watch a lot of anime, play brightly colored video games, then you will probably want an LED LCD.

I watch a lot of anime and browse the internet on my television, but for me I just could not deal with the screen uniformity issues that come from owning an LED LCD.

3) There is no perfect affordable 55-60 television. If your budget is under $2000 you will have to weigh the negatives

Plasma: ABL, less bright than LED LCD

LED: Uniformity issues, blacks are nowhere near plasma levels, Dirty screen effect (vertical or horizontal bars from the LED backlighting), some have LED that flicker on/off in dark scenes

4) If you have the budget then you can probably afford a top of the line television

Plasma: Samsung F8500 if you want a brighter television and lower gaming lag.. Panasonic ST/VT60 if you want the best blacks

LED LCD: Your only real option is to get a Direct LIT LED television with local dimming. Every other technology sucks.


Other stuff

ABL: It does not always kick in, only with very white, very yellow backgrounds. Strangely blue and green are less affected by ABL. ABL is not a permanent affect, it goes away

You forget to mention one of the biggest issues with LED & LCD technology... motion BLUR.tongue.gif ultimately its thee reason why i will not give either technology the chance ever again. for movies, its absolutely dreadful.
WaveBoy is offline  
post #114 of 161 Old 07-30-2013, 12:08 PM
Senior Member
 
PogueSquadron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 277
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Saw the S60 at Sears again today. I must admit it looked very nice compared to the LCD's nearby, which kind of looked blown out and straining in comparison. Obviously all of the TVs were on torch mode, but the S60 seemed to have the most "full" color if that makes any sense.

I must say though, the ABL looked super super aggressive. I didn't expect the image to darken as much as it did on some scenes. It certainly seemed more aggressive than say, my parents' Phillips plasma from 6 years ago. This is definitely the only aspect of the TV that has me truly nervous. I checked the TV's settings, and CATS was off in two places, with ECO set to standard. The TV seemed practically half as bright during bright scenes.
PogueSquadron is offline  
post #115 of 161 Old 08-01-2013, 08:04 AM
Advanced Member
 
sooke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yes, the brightness will go back to where it was when the amount of white in the screen diminishes. Think of it as the brightness version of an automatic volume control (AVC). When the volume goes up (brightness in this case), the sound (brightness) is prevented from going too high. But when the volume diminishes (amount of white in the scene) the ABL releases control and the scene's proper dynamics returns.

It seems that more people are becoming aware of this and the impact it has on the picture. I'm always surprised by how many people minimize this 'feature'. What audiophile would allow his AVC to engage if he wanted to listen to music in its true dynamics? It's no different, IMO, with ABL. But we're stuck with it with plasma...but to a lesser extent, thankfully, with the F8500. smile.gif

Couple questions:

1) what is the purpose of ABL? To acheive some energy star rating? Or maybe to reduce size (cost) of power supply? Other?

2) When ABL kicks in, does it just clip the whites? Or is everything on the screen dimmed?

Seems like ABL would be a PITA when setting contrast level using patterns like those found on Disney's WOW disk. Those patterns are almost entirely white. How can you properly set contrast if ABL is clipping the whites?

Panasonic TC-P60ZT60 plasma panel
Sony BDP-S5100 Blu-ray player
Samsung SMT-H3272 DVR
Yamaha RX-V650 AVR
XBOX 360
URC MX-780 remote control
sooke is offline  
post #116 of 161 Old 08-01-2013, 08:54 AM
Senior Member
 
PogueSquadron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 277
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
1.) It's to basically prevent the TV from melting down because an all white screen would draw a lot of power. I think also, that TVs are generally smaller/thinner than they were at the beginning of the HD era, so perhaps they're not as efficient with handling heat, at least in lower end models. So, maybe that could be a reason for more aggressive ABL in some models.

2.) Everything on the screen is dimmed, although to be honest, each TV is different. It's hardly worth mentioning in regards to my parents' TV, though it's also 7 years old at this point. If ABL didn't kick in, my eyes would probably hurt on that TV, haha.

I'm not sure how some TVs are nowadays, but when you're changing settings on some TVs, there's enough on the "HUD" to make sure ABL doesn't kick in fully. This may be a better question for fairchild though.
PogueSquadron is offline  
post #117 of 161 Old 08-01-2013, 10:34 AM
Advanced Member
 
tom669's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Leeds, UK
Posts: 835
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 93
The only reason is to meet the strict energy ratings. 90% ABL is pretty difficult to notice unless you turn the panel brightness right up, but 45% is horrible... no idea how anyone could live with that. It also allows the power supply to be smaller. If you put a 2008 Panasonic 42" 1080p plasma power supply in a 60" Panasonic ZT60, it would be capable of driving the panel with double the brightness level (if the firmware of the controller board was adjusted to allow it.)
tom669 is offline  
post #118 of 161 Old 08-01-2013, 10:43 AM
Member
 
JL-F1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 14
power rules /energy ratings are SO DUMB

I can run 10 tv's in a house and be fully legal but any one of the TV's has to be power limited, stupid. Ever hear of a blowdryer, lol
JL-F1 is offline  
post #119 of 161 Old 08-01-2013, 10:54 AM
Advanced Member
 
sooke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Thanks for the answers guys.

Actually, I just got a 60" ZT60 2 weeks ago. It is my first plasma. I've not noticed the ABL kicking in yet while watching content. But I did have some trouble setting contrast with the WOW disk. You are supposed to turn up contrast until two bright white bars become equal. The disk says turning contrast up further clips whites. But for me, as I approached contrast = 50 the two white bars stopped changing (I could not get them to be the same). Infact, nothing on the test pattern seemed to change for contrast values > 50. I thought maybe this could be due to ABL turning on. So that was the reason for my questions. Just trying to figure out what was going on, being new to plasma and all.

Panasonic TC-P60ZT60 plasma panel
Sony BDP-S5100 Blu-ray player
Samsung SMT-H3272 DVR
Yamaha RX-V650 AVR
XBOX 360
URC MX-780 remote control
sooke is offline  
post #120 of 161 Old 08-01-2013, 11:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
xrox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by sooke View Post

Couple questions:

1) what is the purpose of ABL? To acheive some energy star rating? Or maybe to reduce size (cost) of power supply? Other?

2) When ABL kicks in, does it just clip the whites? Or is everything on the screen dimmed?

Seems like ABL would be a PITA when setting contrast level using patterns like those found on Disney's WOW disk. Those patterns are almost entirely white. How can you properly set contrast if ABL is clipping the whites?
I haven't read this thread yet so I may repeat some points.

All displays that generate light within a subpixel will have an ABL. This includes CRT, Plasma, OLED, SED, FED....etc
This is because they are all power-on-demand devices. The brighter the display the more power it needs. LCD works differently in that light intensity is constant and thus power is constant as well. Intesity is controlled only by liquid crystal orientation.

The purpose of the ABL in power-on-demand devices is to manage the brightness vs power limitation in order to maximize contrast.. It does this by reducing the peak brightness as the average pixel level increases. In other words as more pixels are active the peak brightness is reduced and average brightness is controlled.

This creates an affect similar to our pupils in our eyes. They control average brightness to our retina.

en_027.jpg~original

Why do Plasmas have a very severe ABL?

- the luminous efficiency is relatively low meaning they require a lot of power to generate light. So at maximum power the peak brightness at high APL is very low and the peak brightness at low APL is very high to get the required contrast. This creates a very large brightness shift.

- Even with recent improvements in luminous efficiency, manufacturers would rather reduce the overall power consumption than soften the ABL

- Even if the efficiency was very high and ABL reduced this would negatively impact lifetime because the phosphors would be aged much faster.
SJA05 likes this.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
xrox is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off