Official Pioneer Kuro Reddish Tint Problem Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Does your Kuro have a reddish tint to the blacks?
KRP-500M/KRP-600M - NO 10 18.52%
5020FD/6020FD - NO 3 5.56%
111FD/151FD - NO 6 11.11%
101FD/141FD - NO 6 11.11%
Other/Older Model (please post) - NO 4 7.41%
KRP-500M/KRP-600M - YES 11 20.37%
5020FD/6020FD - YES 7 12.96%
111FD/151FD - YES 5 9.26%
101FD/141FD - YES 2 3.70%
Other/Older Model (please post) - YES 1 1.85%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 54. You may not vote on this poll

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post #271 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by heyskip View Post

Just thought I'd share some info that I found while trying the procedure last night on my Australian 600M.

I wasn't able to get HyperTerminal working. All COM port and other related settings were confirmed correct. I use a laptop with proper serial port(no adapters) and it works fine with Chromapure and ControlCAL which use the same port and settings. To get around this I downloaded KuroControl and used the command entry section at the bottom of the window to enter the RS232 commands, which worked fine.

The second problem was getting into the service menu. The commands I entered to get the service menu up were [PON --> FAY --> FACS01] at this point I was able to use the normal remote to navigate the menus.

Hope this helps anyone that may be experiencing problems.

Has this solved your red tint issue?
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post #272 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 03:44 AM
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can someone post a faq on how to do this? I'm unsure if i should do a reset or just play with some specific parameters.
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post #273 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by GabeG View Post

can someone post a faq on how to do this? I'm unsure if i should do a reset or just play with some specific parameters.

From my own experience this is what I would try.

1. Try reducing VOL RST P to see if you can regain the black level. There is not much scope to do this however as it is already set fairly low to begin with (plus there is the uneven grey / red issue which seems to be resolved by a pulse meter reset).

2. If this doesn't work reset the pulse meter (I also reset the hours meter, no proof this has an affect on red tint).

If all is okay then perfect. If not....

1. Too much black / temporary crushing black
Raise VOL RST P until issue is resolved (LX5090 4000+ hours).

2. Pink Sparkles
Raise VOL RST P until issue is resolved (worked for mascior - 600M?).

As far as we know, all other VOL values should be left alone.

Please note trying this may cause damage to your television.
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post #274 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 05:11 AM
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Just to clarify when I say i'm getting a MLL of Y: 0 it's not actually 0 or absent of light, it's just lower than what my meter is capable of reading. My Display 3 Pro is capable of reading down to Y.001 which is what my panel originally read prior to the reset.
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post #275 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mascior View Post

Just to clarify when I say i'm getting a MLL of Y: 0 it's not actually 0 or absent of light, it's just lower than what my meter is capable of reading.

If you want to close in on MLL try single steps from 10% down to the point that your meter fails and see if the changes down to zero are still visually perceptible.
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post #276 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 07:30 AM
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Lots of great info here.

Has anyone succesfully completed this on a 5020/6020? I see a lot of talk on the KRP's and European models, but not much on the x020's. I would really like to have my blacks back and it sounds like contacting Pioneer directly to get the software upadate has not worked, so I'll have to give this a shot.

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post #277 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

This is indeed an interesting thread but on certain models (141 for sure) the black level jumps up when no signal is detected.

To expand on this, again only speaking of monitors. There are three representations of "black".
1) Normal which is the result 0% stimulus input.
2) Panel muted. The same as off but triggered by a relatively extended period of full-screen 0% stimulus input.
3) Off.

A non-muted panel with no input is not at MLL.
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post #278 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcramer View Post

it sounds like contacting Pioneer directly to get the software upadate has not worked

I'll believe in an update when someone reports actually getting a non-public firmware update. Until then I consider that to be a rumor triggered by CSR confusion.

People need to remember that Pioneer has been out of the television business for years. I can't imagine they still have engineers working on this although it possible they have an arrangement with Panasonic or Sharp for support services.
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post #279 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

To expand on this, again only speaking of monitors. There are three representations of "black".
1) Normal which is the result 0% stimulus input.
2) Panel muted. The same as off but triggered by a relatively extended period of full-screen 0% stimulus input.
3) Off.

A non-muted panel with no input is not at MLL.

It looks like the best way to measure this would be with the black raster mask, MKRS05?
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post #280 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

To expand on this, again only speaking of monitors. There are three representations of "black".
1) Normal which is the result 0% stimulus input.
2) Panel muted. The same as off but triggered by a relatively extended period of full-screen 0% stimulus input.
3) Off.

A non-muted panel with no input is not at MLL.

My 141 has about 4 or 5 different black levels according to input status. True operating MLL is only reached when a signal has been detected and displayed for 15 seconds or more. D-Nice once mentioned that this was not the case with other KURO models.

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post #281 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcramer View Post

Lots of great info here.

Has anyone succesfully completed this on a 5020/6020? I see a lot of talk on the KRP's and European models, but not much on the x020's. I would really like to have my blacks back and it sounds like contacting Pioneer directly to get the software upadate has not worked, so I'll have to give this a shot.

fpapp on page 6 stated he did it to his 5020. His has an elite board in it, but I dont think that it would have a different effect. Just gives him more isf settings. I plan to give mine a go. Just waiting for a new usb/serial cable.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1361871&page=6
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post #282 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 10:52 AM
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Stroud,

It sounds like just resetting pulse meter may be all it needs, and resetting hour meter may be antecdotal. I may try to just reset pulse meter, and see how it looks. I have a feeling though, you are right. My gut tells me restting one without resetting the other may cause more problems down the road with aging problems.
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post #283 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post

Stroud,

It sounds like just resetting pulse meter may be all it needs, and resetting hour meter may be antecdotal. I may try to just reset pulse meter, and see how it looks. I have a feeling though, you are right. My gut tells me restting one without resetting the other may cause more problems down the road with aging problems.

I think you're right. I would probably reset the hour meter too just to be on the safe side.
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post #284 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 11:14 AM
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I remember awhile back D-Nice posting he was able to achieve a lower MLL level in his 60" Pro 141 (9.5g levels) with some information provided to him from Pioneer engineers.

I wonder if this is how it is accomplished? It seems some have noticed and measured a lower MLL after this procedure. If this is correct that leads to the question even if you are not experiencing a tint issue in the blacks can this procedure be used to lower MLL in 9g elites?

Any thoughts or opinions?
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post #285 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blb1215 View Post

I remember awhile back D-Nice posting he was able to achieve a lower MLL level in his 60" Pro 141 (9.5g levels) with some information provided to him from Pioneer engineers.

I wonder if this is how it is accomplished? It seems some have noticed and measured a lower MLL after this procedure. If this is correct that leads to the question even if you are not experiencing a tint issue in the blacks can this procedure be used to lower MLL in 9g elites?

Any thoughts or opinions?

I was wondering the same thing. It has been a while since I've seen him discuss his own Kuros though.
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post #286 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blb1215 View Post

I remember awhile back D-Nice posting he was able to achieve a lower MLL level in his 60" Pro 141 (9.5g levels) with some information provided to him from Pioneer engineers.

I wonder if this is how it is accomplished?

Adjusting certain voltage controls can reduce MLL however it is dangerous. One thing I do know is resetting the pulse meter on a panel with thousands of hours on it is a no no and those who have done it are going to find out later on the ramifications of resetting that clock. You are pretty much guaranteed to have display issues as your panel ages with the incorrect voltage compensation adjustments. This as well as other negative items are the primary reason why I advised you and mascior that I do not offer MLL reduction services those many months ago.
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post #287 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 11:39 AM
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Thanks for the info D-Nice.

barry
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post #288 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 12:05 PM
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So we are in a catch 22. Do the reset and the ramifications in the long term may be significant. Don't make the changes and accept a degraded tv. Many of us are outside our warranty period and replacing the panel is too expensive and even if we did have a warranty, most of the places we bought it from would not replace it anyway, just give us credit for a lower quality tv. Pioneer won't acknowledge the problem and what we thought was the pearl of plasma when we bought it, may turn out to be fake. Probably will now steer me away from the Sharp Elite tv's since they are using some of the same Pioneer patents, and a few years down the road, those sets may or may not face the same issues.
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post #289 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post

So we are in a catch 22. Do the reset and the ramifications in the long term may be significant. Don't make the changes and accept a degraded tv. Many of us are outside our warranty period and replacing the panel is too expensive and even if we did have a warranty, most of the places we bought it from would not replace it anyway, just give us credit for a lower quality tv. Pioneer won't acknowledge the problem and what we thought was the pearl of plasma when we bought it, may turn out to be fake.

Red blacks do exist. I've seen two cases of it. However they only exist on a small number of Kuros. Ive calibrated 2nd Gen Kuros with over 12k hours of use on them and not one of them had elevated black levels or red blacks. None of my Kuros have red blacks or elevated blacks. 99% of my clients Kuros do not either.

I really feel bad for those affected by this problem as it stems from certain assembly lines. You guys are really stuck between a rock and hard place by either accepting the red blacks or playing with your voltage controls and paying the price for messing with those controls later.
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post #290 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Red blacks do exist. I've seen two cases of it. However they only exist on a small number of Kuros. Ive calibrated 2nd Gen Kuros with over 12k hours of use on them and not one of them had elevated black levels or red blacks. None of my Kuros have red blacks or elevated blacks. 99% of my clients Kuros do not either.

I really feel bad for those affected by this problem as it stems from certain assembly lines. You guys are really stuck between a rock and hard place by either accepting the red blacks or playing with your voltage controls and paying the price for messing with those controls later.

Just for point of curiosity, do we have any idea what is actually causing this for the people affected? I assume it's not the drive circuits themselves so is it that the panels are aging differently from the majority of the production line? If this were the case, it would seem to me plausible that the affected sets might actually need the manual adjustments over time in order to continue functioning to spec and could end up with issues from being regularly overvolted otherwise. But you know a lot more than I do so feel free to correct if I'm wrong.

It does seem to me though that it's preferable if planning to do adjustment to go in the SM and simply adjust the voltages than resetting the counters (ie tweaking vs. brute force fix).
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post #291 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 12:27 PM
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D-Nice,

Could it be that the somewhat grayish black bars we are seeing in a totally dark room normal? In other words, in a completely dark room, there should be some grayish black glow more noticeable is dark scenes. When I have light on in the room, or the movies has bright scenes, the black bars appear black.
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post #292 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post

D-Nice,

Could it be that the somewhat grayish black bars we are seeing in a totally dark room normal? In other words, in a completely dark room, there should be some grayish black glow more noticeable is dark scenes. When I have light on in the room, or the movies has bright scenes, the black bars appear black.

There should be a glow in a totally dark room on a 0% stimuli pattern. Low APL scenes should also have this glow. I'm not sure why some think that should not happen. Even the Sharp Elite glows with said examples in a dark room.
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post #293 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post

Can I ask what verision of Windows you were using? XP, Vista, Windows 7? Just trying to figure out which is working best.

I was using XP

Quote:
Originally Posted by stroud View Post

Has this solved your red tint issue?

I didn't have the red tint issue....yet. I was watching this thread in anticipation of the day I noticed it. But all the talk of lowering MLL made me want to experiment.

I have my 600M in a light controlled room and even with a strong 4 light ideal lume backlight the blacks never seemed as low as they should. I know .001 is still noticeable but with a backlight it really shouldn't be and it was. My pannel had 3250hrs on it and I bought it used at 1200hrs. The whole time i've owned it has been calibrated to ~32ftL and then had power save 2 applied because even at 32 it was too bright for comfortable viewing. So in my case Im thinking that the pannel really shouldn't have aged much by this point and the voltage compensation being applied might have been too aggressive.

Either way I have to say it looks great now, blacks are definately blacker and I haven't noticed any other side-effects....yet. No voltage ajustments required for me, just CPM and CHM reset. Although it does seem like a re-calibration will be needed.
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post #294 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

It does seem to me though that it's preferable if planning to do adjustment to go in the SM and simply adjust the voltages than resetting the counters (ie tweaking vs. brute force fix).

This does make sense. Although one may not get the perfect picture, it may be better than before and it's only done incrementally instead of all at once. But I am not an expert either, and D-Nice is the source to trust when it comes to all things relating to our Pioneers.
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post #295 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

There should be a glow in a totally dark room on a 0% stimuli pattern. Low APL scenes should also have this glow. I'm not sure why some think that should not happen. Even the Sharp Elite glows with said examples in a dark room.

Thanks D-Nice. You made me re think the whole process. I don't have the red glow, and can live with the picture, because it still is sharp and vibrant. If I ever get the red glow, then I will attempt as I will have nothing to lose by then.
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post #296 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Adjusting certain voltage controls can reduce MLL however it is dangerous. One thing I do know is resetting the pulse meter on a panel with thousands of hours on it is a no no and those who have done it are going to find out later on the ramifications of resetting that clock. You are pretty much guaranteed to have display issues as your panel ages with the incorrect voltage compensation adjustments. This as well as other negative items are the primary reason why I advised you and mascior that I do not offer MLL reduction services those many months ago.

I'm not trying to alter the black levels on my 8g, just get rid or lessen the red tint. if i don't play with the pulse meter and just tweak the voltage, what would the long term problems be?
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post #297 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by GabeG View Post


I'm not trying to alter the black levels on my 8g, just get rid or lessen the red tint. if i don't play with the pulse meter and just tweak the voltage, what would the long term problems be?

I am not going to assist you with this.
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post #298 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Adjusting certain voltage controls can reduce MLL however it is dangerous. One thing I do know is resetting the pulse meter on a panel with thousands of hours on it is a no no and those who have done it are going to find out later on the ramifications of resetting that clock. You are pretty much guaranteed to have display issues as your panel ages with the incorrect voltage compensation adjustments. This as well as other negative items are the primary reason why I advised you and mascior that I do not offer MLL reduction services those many months ago.

Well too late for me I guess What kind of ramifications might I expect? My panel has about 3400hrs when I reset the pulse and hour counters the other day. Right now the picture looks great, and I really like having the inky blacks back!

Thanks
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post #299 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

Just for point of curiosity, do we have any idea what is actually causing this for the people affected? I assume it's not the drive circuits themselves so is it that the panels are aging differently from the majority of the production line?

Sorry I just realized yesterday that this thread was interesting thanks to a mention on HDJ. I did a quick patent search and it seems the amount of CEL material on each phosphor color is different to compensate for the differences in discharge start voltage. Ideally the CEL amount should be G > R > B to give nearly equal discharge start voltages.

If too much CEL is placed on the red phosphor then the discharge voltage becomes to low (easier to discharge) and blacks will look red in color.


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post #300 of 2700 Old 12-07-2011, 02:55 PM
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RGB deterioration correction levels are individually tweakable in SM.
Even the service menu is sexy in a Kuro. Thx god I don't own one, I would make such a mess.
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