Official Pioneer Kuro Reddish Tint Problem Thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Does your Kuro have a reddish tint to the blacks?
KRP-500M/KRP-600M - NO 10 19.23%
5020FD/6020FD - NO 3 5.77%
111FD/151FD - NO 6 11.54%
101FD/141FD - NO 6 11.54%
Other/Older Model (please post) - NO 4 7.69%
KRP-500M/KRP-600M - YES 10 19.23%
5020FD/6020FD - YES 7 13.46%
111FD/151FD - YES 5 9.62%
101FD/141FD - YES 2 3.85%
Other/Older Model (please post) - YES 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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post #451 of 2699 Old 12-11-2011, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post

OK, I don't own a Kuro but I have to ask. With over 400 replies in this thread, is this a major flaw with the 'Mighty Kuro' or is it just that there are so many of them out there and they're starting to get old? Or is it something else?

I have the tint on my 500m, but I remember seeing it a longg time ago. Honestly, it's a non-issue if you watch the TV with *any* amount of light in the room. The room basically has to be pitch black for me to see any of the redness.

It's difficult to even use the word "tint" because that would imply the red color adulterates the whole display. In reality, the red only shows up on black in a completely dark room, and even then, it's subtle.
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post #452 of 2699 Old 12-11-2011, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powertoold View Post


I have the tint on my 500m, but I remember seeing it a longg time ago. Honestly, it's a non-issue if you watch the TV with *any* amount of light in the room. The room basically has to be pitch black for me to see any of the redness.

It's difficult to even use the word "tint" because that would imply the red color adulterates the whole display. In reality, the red only shows up on black in a completely dark room, and even then, it's subtle.

Your display is normal... as are 95% of the displays in this thread where their owner think they have red blacks.

What you are seeing is the idle charge illuminating your filter which is purplish red. On top of that your grayscale is redder from 0-10% stimuli than the rest of your grayscale. Those two factors will make your idle luminance a deep purplish red. Depending on how red your grayscale is between 0 and 10% stimuli will dictate how much red appears in the normal purplish red idle luminance. Although the redder 0-10% can be calibrated out, to a certain extent, it cannot be 100% calibrated out.

Having typed the above, there are a few Kuros out there that literally have a red idle black (MLL). It is not widespread and only affects a small number of Kuros.


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post #453 of 2699 Old 12-11-2011, 04:39 PM
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When up close to my panel, the red area looks similar to dithering pixels. It is not covering the whole display. The red area is concentrated at the lower right hand corner and along the bottom to about the middle if the set. There is a small area in the upper right as well.

If there is no input signal the screen improves and doesn't exhibit the dithering red nearly as bad as when it is receiving actual content. (Before the no input total black)

This has always led me to believe it is voltage related.
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post #454 of 2699 Old 12-11-2011, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Your display is normal... as are 95% of the displays in this thread where their owner think they have red blacks.

What you are seeing is the idle charge illuminating your filter which is purplish red. On top of that your grayscale is redder from 0-10% stimuli than the rest of your grayscale. Those two factors will make your idle luminance a deep purplish red. Depending on how red your grayscale is between 0 and 10% stimuli will dictate how much red appears in the normal purplish red idle luminance. Although the redder 0-10% can be calibrated out, to a certain extent, it cannot be 100% calibrated out.

Having typed the above, there are a few Kuros out there that literally have a red idle black (MLL). It is not widespread and only affects a small number of Kuros.

You just pretty much described how mine looks. The room has to be pretty dark to notice it. It is a purplish red tinted slightly glowing black. Since I bought the set (6020) used with about 2000 hours on it I have no idea how it looked when new. It now has about 3200 hours and seems about the same as when I got it. It was upgraded with the Elite board swap and calibrated by ChadB. Excepting the slight reddish blacks, and some DSE issues it looks wonderful Thanks to D-Nice for clarifying this. You are a huge asset to this forum.
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post #455 of 2699 Old 12-11-2011, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

You just pretty much described how mine looks. The room has to be pretty dark to notice it. It is a purplish red tinted slightly glowing black. Since I bought the set (6020) used with about 2000 hours on it I have no idea how it looked when new. It now has about 3200 hours and seems about the same as when I got it. It was upgraded with the Elite board swap and calibrated by ChadB. Excepting the slight reddish blacks, and some DSE issues it looks wonderful Thanks to D-Nice for clarifying this. You are a huge asset to this forum.

I agree! Some of us didn't know this because we never looked for it. Once we looked for it, we found a glow, when it was there all along. Of course those that do have a true red screen tint, really do have a problem. I hope their problems can be resolved with a few simple steps.
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post #456 of 2699 Old 12-12-2011, 03:02 AM
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For those who have the bad type of red tint or have already reset the pulse counter, the service manual states that various adjustments are made according to the pulse meter. The pulse meter is used to determine accumulated usage time of the plasma display panel.
After digging through the patent database I found a patent filed by Pioneer in 2006 (attached) which deals with this concept. It was also the only source I could find that makes reference to “adjustments for accumulated time usage” and it is feasible that the Kuro range would have used these concepts.

Abstract: “Pulse voltage values and/or pulse widths of a variety of drive pulses that are applied to the plasma display panel are adjusted in accordance with the accumulated usage time of the plasma display panel.”

From reading the patent I have determined the following values to be adjusted automatically according to accumulated usage.

Reset Pulse

Sustain Pulse

Scan Pulse

Pulse Width

RGB Values (to maintain white balance)

The diagram below shows how the changes are applied over time. I noticed that the reset pulse curve increases quite steeply which may explain why I needed to adjust it upwards after reset. I still seem to be within tolerance values on scan pulse, sustain pulse and pulse width.



Pulse width appears to be adjusted at a set period in time (t1) rather than a gradual adjustment. No reference is made to the exact time that this would occur.
RGB values are interesting. Figure 14a shows that over time red remains constant, green falls slightly and blue deteriorates the most. Figure 14b shows how the levels are shifted to compensate. Blue remains constant, green is reduced slightly and red is reduced the most.
I think that although these adjustments happen automatically, scope for adjustment has been provided through the panel adjustment nodes in the service menu. My intention is to figure out what these adjustments do so that I can adjust my PDP should any side effects occur in the future.

 

US20060066519_split_1.pdf 314.2216796875k . file

 

US20060066519_split_2.pdf 294.2412109375k . file

 

US20060066519_split_3.pdf 138.6123046875k . file
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post #457 of 2699 Old 12-12-2011, 04:16 AM
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Please keep posting your experiences with this, nature of red tint, things you have tried, calibration reports, issues and fixes etc.
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post #458 of 2699 Old 12-12-2011, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Very good info Stroud! Thanks for continuing to look into this and dig for info . I think we are giong to come up with some kind of solution in the near future. I wonder what D-Nice is doing with everyone's info and if he has a Pioneer contact maybe he is consulting with.
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post #459 of 2699 Old 12-12-2011, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stroud View Post

For those who have the bad type of red tint or have already reset the pulse counter, the service manual states that various adjustments are made according to the pulse meter. The pulse meter is used to determine accumulated usage time of the plasma display panel.
After digging through the patent database I found a patent filed by Pioneer in 2006 (attached) which deals with this concept. It was also the only source I could find that makes reference to adjustments for accumulated time usage" and it is feasible that the Kuro range would have used these concepts.

Abstract: "Pulse voltage values and/or pulse widths of a variety of drive pulses that are applied to the plasma display panel are adjusted in accordance with the accumulated usage time of the plasma display panel."

From reading the patent I have determined the following values to be adjusted automatically according to accumulated usage.

Reset Pulse

Sustain Pulse

Scan Pulse

Pulse Width

RGB Values (to maintain white balance)

The diagram below shows how the changes are applied over time. I noticed that the reset pulse curve increases quite steeply which may explain why I needed to adjust it upwards after reset. I still seem to be within tolerance values on scan pulse, sustain pulse and pulse width.

Pulse width appears to be adjusted at a set period in time (t1) rather than a gradual adjustment. No reference is made to the exact time that this would occur.
RGB values are interesting. Figure 14a shows that over time red remains constant, green falls slightly and blue deteriorates the most. Figure 14b shows how the levels are shifted to compensate. Blue remains constant, green is reduced slightly and red is reduced the most.
I think that although these adjustments happen automatically, scope for adjustment has been provided through the panel adjustment nodes in the service menu. My intention is to figure out what these adjustments do so that I can adjust my PDP should any side effects occur in the future.

That patent has nothing to do with your display in the manner you posted.

All PDPs driving parameters are adjusted over time. This has been the case since the very first PDP.

I applaud you for continuing to research how PDPs work. However I think you need to come to terms that your PDP module is out of spec in relation to it's aging and the driving software and there is nothing you can do about it unless you either get a brand new PDP module or decrypt the firmware and regards resequence the pulse counter to be in line with your current panel age.


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post #460 of 2699 Old 12-12-2011, 09:50 AM
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Hi D-Nice,
It's been a while...My 600M still looks fantastic, with one small exception. I am seeing the red tint, quite prominently. I have been following this thread in hopes that this annoyance could be minimized. However, it sounds to me like short of amended software perhaps, you do not think we will be able to properly and safely eliminate this distraction?

Thanks,
Ron
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post #461 of 2699 Old 12-12-2011, 01:12 PM
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After speaking with my guy at Pioneer service today...here is what he told me based of the e-mail I sent him last week. By resetting your panel with out changing the X and or Y board can cause effects to the following voltages and settings: VOL SUS, VOL OFFSET, VOL RST P, and Panel white balance 60 & 72 hz. The rest of the voltages from VOL XPOFS1 to SUS FREQ are fine because those voltages are adjusted per X/Y board and since they are not being changed those values are fine. However now the VOL SUS needs to be re-adjusted to 215v(reguardless of the 128 value) by meter inside the panel, next the VOL OFFSET & VOL RST P both need to be adjusted up using the MKCS01 patern at 60hz until all sparkles are gone, and last you will need a good spectroradiometer or colorimeter to recalibrate your panels main white balance at 60hz/72hz because the values are no longer correct for your panel.


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post #462 of 2699 Old 12-12-2011, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

That patent has nothing to do with your display in the manner you posted.

All PDPs driving parameters are adjusted over time. This has been the case since the very first PDP.

I applaud you for continuing to research how PDPs work. However I think you need to come to terms that your PDP module is out of spec in relation to it's aging and the driving software and there is nothing you can do about it unless you either get a brand new PDP module or decrypt the firmware and regards resequence the pulse counter to be in line with your current panel age.

Oh and D-Nice you are correct about the module being out of wack with the panel aging. My guy said the only side effect that he could see us having is to keep readjusting the rest voltage as the panel ages to get rid of unwanted side effects or at worst change out the Y board which is around $600 plus installation.


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post #463 of 2699 Old 12-12-2011, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mascior View Post

Oh and D-Nice you are correct about the module being out of wack with the panel aging. My guy said the only side effect that he could see us having is to keep readjusting the rest voltage as the panel ages to get rid of unwanted side effects or at worst change out the Y board which is around $600 plus installation.

See if your fieldtech friend would wager his job on that Those who developed these panels say a bit more than he has advised you. The more hours you had on your panel prior to the pulse reset, the more problems you will have.


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post #464 of 2699 Old 12-12-2011, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronmck View Post

you do not think we will be able to properly and safely eliminate this distraction?

Thanks,
Ron

No. When I get a chance, I am going to have to pay you a visit to see how bad your display looks.


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post #465 of 2699 Old 12-12-2011, 02:30 PM
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D-Nice,

It's good to hear you say that. You are more than welcome to stop in anytime. I'm thinking it may be time for a tweak on the calibration, too. It's been 2 years, if you can believe it. Let me know whenever you plan to be in town.

Thanks,
Ron
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post #466 of 2699 Old 12-12-2011, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mascior View Post

After speaking with my guy at Pioneer service today...here is what he told me based of the e-mail I sent him last week. By resetting your panel with out changing the X and or Y board can cause effects to the following voltages and settings: VOL SUS, VOL OFFSET, VOL RST P, and Panel white balance 60 & 72 hz. The rest of the voltages from VOL XPOFS1 to SUS FREQ are fine because those voltages are adjusted per X/Y board and since they are not being changed those values are fine. However now the VOL SUS needs to be re-adjusted to 215v(reguardless of the 128 value) by meter inside the panel, next the VOL OFFSET & VOL RST P both need to be adjusted up using the MKCS01 patern at 60hz until all sparkles are gone, and last you will need a good spectroradiometer or colorimeter to recalibrate your panels main white balance at 60hz/72hz because the values are no longer correct for your panel.

If you're just changing vol rst p, would that change white balance?
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post #467 of 2699 Old 12-12-2011, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mascior View Post

After speaking with my guy at Pioneer service today...here is what he told me based of the e-mail I sent him last week. By resetting your panel with out changing the X and or Y board can cause effects to the following voltages and settings: VOL SUS, VOL OFFSET, VOL RST P, and Panel white balance 60 & 72 hz. The rest of the voltages from VOL XPOFS1 to SUS FREQ are fine because those voltages are adjusted per X/Y board and since they are not being changed those values are fine. However now the VOL SUS needs to be re-adjusted to 215v(reguardless of the 128 value) by meter inside the panel, next the VOL OFFSET & VOL RST P both need to be adjusted up using the MKCS01 patern at 60hz until all sparkles are gone, and last you will need a good spectroradiometer or colorimeter to recalibrate your panels main white balance at 60hz/72hz because the values are no longer correct for your panel.

I can confirm the white balance - RGB highlights are slightly off . On my panel, -2 ON RED from original -1 R, G= 0 same as before, B=+5 from B=+2.

LOW gain: R=0 from R=-1, G=0 same as before. B=0 from B=+1.

White balance and Gamma tracking still looks pretty good.


I will do some testing on VOL SUS, VOL Offset and VOL RST P. Just fine tuning.

I guess I need to examine the workflow as specified in the service manual to tune the settings on the panel. Should be fun!

IT is cool that the KURO panel has its own test pattern that can be shown using RS232 commands.

Thanks for the information Mascior!
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post #468 of 2699 Old 12-12-2011, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GabeG View Post


If you're just changing vol rst p, would that change white balance?

No


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post #469 of 2699 Old 12-13-2011, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mascior View Post

OK...here we go. The tech just left my house and my display is fixed. However there has been a huge mix up with pioneer and there software. What the tech brought over was 9g software but for every other model but the krp's. If you have any other model but the krp you are in luck. Call pioneer and get your display serviced. For those who have a krp like myself you can call for service but they need to adjust your panel voltages from the service menu. The tech told me that the red tint came from how the panel ages. He reset my panel, adjusted the VOL SUS and the VOL RST P. I needed no software installed and my blacks are BACK!! Good luck to everybody who is having this issue and hope it turns out as well as mine did.

So I was able to get a hold of someone in customer support that was aware of the patch Mascior had talked about and they set me up so that I can call my local authorized Pioneer repair company to come out and assist with this. Like Mascior, I was going to have them help me out in the service menu by resetting the logs or at least adjusting some of the voltages since I was a little nervous to get in there and mess with it myself. I am not too sure I want to proceed with this now that it sounds like resetting the pulse log could screw the panel up in the long run. I guess I could still have them just adjust the voltages to see if it helps the red tint at all. I have to call the service company within 30 days to set up my appointment. What do you guys think I should do?
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post #470 of 2699 Old 12-13-2011, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac13 View Post

So I was able to get a hold of someone in customer support that was aware of the patch Mascior had talked about and they set me up so that I can call my local authorized Pioneer repair company to come out and assist with this. Like Mascior, I was going to have them help me out in the service menu by resetting the logs or at least adjusting some of the voltages since I was a little nervous to get in there and mess with it myself. I am not too sure I want to proceed with this now that it sounds like resetting the pulse log could screw the panel up in the long run. I guess I could still have them just adjust the voltages to see if it helps the red tint at all. I have to call the service company within 30 days to set up my appointment. What do you guys think I should do?

on my set dialling down the vol rst p helped the red tint...i didn't go crazy
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post #471 of 2699 Old 12-13-2011, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GabeG View Post

on my set dialling down the vol rst p helped the red tint...i didn't go crazy

Did you mess with any of the other voltages such as SUS? Did dialing the vol rst p down get rid of the tint completely or just lessen it a little?
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post #472 of 2699 Old 12-13-2011, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
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Did you mess with any of the other voltages such as SUS? Did dialing the vol rst p down get rid of the tint completely or just lessen it a little?

No, just rst. Significantly reduced, if not completely eliminated. With no signal in a dark room the screen has a black/dark purplish glow. It's an 8g so i wouldn't expect it to blend with the bezel...hell I saw the new elite this weekend and even that had a very slight glow in a black room.
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post #473 of 2699 Old 12-13-2011, 09:51 AM
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What is the model number of your display?
500M

What is the assembly date of your display?
April 2009

What is the build date and serial number of your PDP module?
AAL 3059-A
PDU - PC50F09E6

Dec 2008
HLPN013804GA

Did you purchase the display new or used?
New

How many hours do you currently have?
I will update later with this.

When did notice the red tint?
Within the past month and a half. I'm seeing early signs as described in this thread. Started bottom right hand corner and is slowly spreading out. I will update this later with my best guess of hour count when this started.

How many hours per day is the display powered ON and in use?
About 2 hours.

What is the average temperature of the room the display has been operating in?
70 - 80

Have you had your display calibrated?
Yes

Have you been using my reference settings?
No

Did you perform the 150 hour panel aging procedure I recommend with my settings?
Yes, I ran the slides

What video mode and settings have you used with your display throughout its lifespan.
I mainly use my ISF Day and Night modes. Once in a while I will use Pure Mode which is listed below.

Contrast 39
Brightness +1
Color +6
Tint 0
Sharpness -15
Color Temp
R High -11
G High -2
B High 0
R Low -1
G Low 0
B Low 0
Gamma 1
Film Mode Advance
Color Management all set to 0
Color Space 2
All other "enhancement" options are set to off

Have you ever been in the SM?
No

Have you ever had any serious power issues in the room the display has been operating in?
No

Has the display ever been damage/abused?
No

Has the display ever needed repair?
No
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post #474 of 2699 Old 12-13-2011, 10:00 AM
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What is the model number of your display?
PRO-111FD

What is the assembly date of your display?
Unable to get date due to display being wall mounted. I will update next time a buddy comes over to help me bring it down. Below is my first 2 characters of my serial number

HH

What is the build date and serial number of your PDP module? Please see above why I am unable to provide this. I will update my post once I get this info.

Did you purchase the display new or used?
New

How many hours do you currently have?
Will update post with this info

When did notice the red tint?
about 4 - 5 months ago, will update estimated hours once i have this info

How many hours per day is the display powered ON and in use?
10

What is the average temperature of the room the display has been operating in?
70 - 80

Have you had your display calibrated?
Yes

Have you been using my reference settings?
Yes, prior to having my display calibrated

Did you perform the 150 hour panel aging procedure I recommend with my settings?
Yes

What video mode and settings have you used with your display throughout its lifespan.
80% of the time will be isf day. 15% isf night. 5% Pure. Below is my pure mode settings

Contrast 40
Brightness 0
Color +5
Tint 0
Sharpness -15
Film Mode Advance
Gamma 1
R High -7
G High -5
B High 0
R Low -1
G Low 0
B Low 0
Color Management all set to 0
Color Space 2
All other "enhancement" settings are set to off

Have you ever been in the SM?
No

Have you ever had any serious power issues in the room the display has been operating in?
No

Has the display ever been damage/abused?
No

Has the display ever needed repair?
No
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post #475 of 2699 Old 12-13-2011, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwellon View Post

What is the model number of your display?
500M

What is the build date and serial number of your PDP module?
AAL 3059-A
PDU - PC50F09E6

I have a 500M with the reddish tint and we have the same PDP module information. I haven't seen anyone else with a 500M post this information so I don't know if they are all the same or not. Anyone know?
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post #476 of 2699 Old 12-13-2011, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 440forpower View Post

What is the model number of your display?

KRP-500M
What is the build date and serial number of your PDP module? 50" owners, look through the vent holes on the back and it be at the top right hand corner. 60" owners, look through the bottom center vent holes to find it.

December 2008, HLPNO14249GA

440forpower you are the only other 500M owner I have seen post their info besides me and Dwellon. Can you look through the vent holes on the back of the display and get the PDP module information? I am wondering if it is the same as mine and Dwellon's. Thanks!
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post #477 of 2699 Old 12-13-2011, 11:56 AM
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In France Two guys have been able to get their black back with the pulse reset.

Cyrano :
vol sus 128
vol offset 113
vol rst p 022

Bernov :
VOL SUS 128
OFFSET 113
RST P 024

but a third has a flash problem with his screen
his VOL RST P is of 002
in your opinion is there a link between the weakness of his VOL RST P and
his failure ?
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post #478 of 2699 Old 12-13-2011, 12:01 PM
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Define flash problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by renet View Post

In France Two guys have been able to get their black back with the pulse reset.

Cyrano :
vol sus 128
vol offset 113
vol rst p 022

Bernov :
VOL SUS 128
OFFSET 113
RST P 024

but a third has a flash problem with his screen
his VOL RST P is of 002
in your opinion is there a link between the weakness of his VOL RST P and
his failure ?



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post #479 of 2699 Old 12-13-2011, 01:04 PM
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Just FYI, I checked the RST P on mine the other day, it's reading 008.

Picture looks great!
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post #480 of 2699 Old 12-13-2011, 01:14 PM
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on black bands (cinemascope 2.35)small white sparkles appear and disappear
if rst p is increased the sparkles disappear but the black becomes red.

We have noticed 2 sorts of PDP:

VOL SUS............128
VOL OFFSET........140
VOL RSTP...........001 (white sparkles after reset pulse and hours)
VOL XPOFS1.......085
VOL XPOFS2.......047
VOL YKNOFS1D...143
VOL YKNOFS3D...128
VOL YKNOFS4D...172
VOL YKNOFSAD...128

and

vol sus 128
vol offset 113
vol rst p 022
vol xpofs1 085
vol xpofs2 063
vol yknofs1 138
vol yknofs3 128
vol yknofs4 149
vol yknofsa 128

Without white sparkles after reset Pulse and hours.

What do you think about that, D-Nice?
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