Official Pioneer Kuro Reddish Tint Problem Thread - Page 73 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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View Poll Results: Does your Kuro have a reddish tint to the blacks?
KRP-500M/KRP-600M - NO 15 14.56%
5020FD/6020FD - NO 4 3.88%
111FD/151FD - NO 15 14.56%
101FD/141FD - NO 9 8.74%
Other/Older Model (please post) - NO 7 6.80%
KRP-500M/KRP-600M - YES 25 24.27%
5020FD/6020FD - YES 14 13.59%
111FD/151FD - YES 8 7.77%
101FD/141FD - YES 6 5.83%
Other/Older Model (please post) - YES 3 2.91%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

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post #2161 of 2874 Old 02-16-2014, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Don't worry.

Your Pioneer hasn't been reset - it's a completely different ball game in voltage behaviour between a reset panel and a non reset panel.

The 50VS (HZ) ,60VS (HZ) 72VS (HZ) etc etc are just different driving frequencies for different kinds of viewing materials.

I don't know how relevant seeing sparkles (misfires) on patterns but not on "normal" viewing material is...

But logic tells me if these are visible on Pioneers own internal test patterns then something isn't quite right. There is nothing in the service manuals that states it's normal - but if artefacts are visible adjustment should be made or words to that effect. I can't imagine glaring magenta misfiring on a white pattern would be classed as correct but no one but the genuine original engineers would know that for sure.

But imho i can't see why it would be normal on a clean full white signal pattern regardless of the drive mode. But it isn't on the other Pioneer full white internal patterns as far as i can remember.

But it is only on 60VS, 72 & 75 vs as far as i can gather from my old notes and not on 50HZ or 60P (60PC)

I may have a flick through the patterns at different HZ (VS) on this non afflicted (so far) KRP500 and see what's what...

Wouldnt 60vs cover most regular content? The manual states to test on 60vs, at least during the panel replacement process when displaying raster masks 15, 21 and 22. I would think this would apply to all other masks?
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post #2162 of 2874 Old 02-16-2014, 08:52 PM
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well... I'm not reading through 73 pages and 2175 posts. .... but my 600m from April 2009 is very red in black screens. seems like minimum levels are higher too. Haven't self calibrated in well over a year though...gotta relearn ... argh.
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post #2163 of 2874 Old 02-16-2014, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

It's utterly amazing how Panasonic keeps being brought up in these threads. It's sad too. Here we are now in a red tint thread and certain people still can't resist to defend Panasonic. It's all over kuro threads now.

Then we have this character on the last page making a post like that. You feel better? I want everyone to go search the VT and ZT threads and tell me if you find any kuro owners in there making arguments about the kuro still being the best. Nobody's goes in those threads searching for post to make sure no one is talking bad about the kuro. We don't care. We're too busy enjoying and descussing out TV's.

I feel like going to the ZT thread just to troll so they can see how it feels. Who's coming with me?

Saprano

You will find the same usual suspects defending the honor of the Panasonic PDP , in OTHER NON Panasonic owners threads (not just Pioneer ),making fact less statements based on what they have read on the internet , not based on measurements of the display they own . It is sad and we should not participate .
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post #2164 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 04:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

Wouldnt 60vs cover most regular content? The manual states to test on 60vs, at least during the panel replacement process when displaying raster masks 15, 21 and 22. I would think this would apply to all other masks?

Yep 60 HZ for all voltage adjustments

Covers most usual stuff including games - 72 hz is bluray etc.

50HZ (VS) only relevant for European KURO owners like myself (Kuro is king for 50HZ material in Europe - makes a mockery of other manufacturers plasma's in that respect) no surprise there then wink.gif
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post #2165 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 04:39 AM
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This adding up of voltages is new to me. It looks like I may need to adjust since I have 3D at 138 and SAD at 128. Correct?

The television screen is the retina of the mind's eye.
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post #2166 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 04:41 AM
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Stue,

Just discovered that i have magenta misfires on combi mask 07. Specially on 72 and 75 hz. Do i need to raise vol sus to get rid of it? On a normal 100% white field i have no misfires.
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post #2167 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 05:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrno View Post

Stue,

Just discovered that i have magenta misfires on combi mask 07. Specially on 72 and 75 hz. Do i need to raise vol sus to get rid of it? On a normal 100% white field i have no misfires.

Hi andro long time no speak hope you are keeping well.

Lowering YKNOFS4D to approximately 134 should clear that up completely or 99% roughly without having to raise VOL SUS. Without any issues on other patterns or normal material.

It's been a while - is your Kuro reset?

What is your sustain voltage at atm?
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post #2168 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 06:51 AM
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Yes I am fine thank you! Hope you are too smile.gif

I recently did another reset with the recommended settings from the discontinued guide.

All other settings at default. I had some magenta misfires on moving images so i raised ykonfsa d to 138. No misfiring on 100% white field. Blacks are almost oled like smile.gif

My settings

sus 128
1d 112
3d 124
4d 172
AD 138

If magenta misfiring on combi 07 is due to under driving how will lowering 4d help?

FYI if i lower yknofsad to 120 i got 0 mml, but with more magenta misfiring on moving images.
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post #2169 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 07:20 AM
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I always find lowering the FSAD causes more magenta misfiring , raising FSAD corrects the misfireing , you could try rasing FSA1 on it own , I find this does not raise the MLL , while raising the FSAD does raise the MLL . Use Combi Mask test pattern 10 to chk for magenta misfires .Its a moving pattern with black and grey boxes separated by white lines , you will see the misfires in the white lines next to the moving black boxes .
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post #2170 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 07:56 AM
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qwknuf6 Thanks for the info!

I will try. However i am afraid that increasing yknofs1 too much will result in misfires near black.
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post #2171 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 08:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrno View Post

Yes I am fine thank you! Hope you are too smile.gif

I recently did another reset with the recommended settings from the discontinued guide.

All other settings at default. I had some magenta misfires on moving images so i raised ykonfsa d to 138. No misfiring on 100% white field. Blacks are almost oled like smile.gif

My settings

sus 128
1d 112
3d 124
4d 172
AD 138

If magenta misfiring on combi 07 is due to under driving how will lowering 4d help?

FYI if i lower yknofsad to 120 i got 0 mml, but with more magenta misfiring on moving images.

FSA controls the other ones all in one go (except VOL SUS or extremely small amounts)

I assume it helps (lowering FS4) because it clears up magenta misfires on the right hand side of Combi pattern 7 on 72/75 VS without having to touch VOL SUS or YKNOFSAD. But there doesn't seem to be any written evidence why it is only really on this one pattern (COMBI 7) on 72/75 1&2 VS.

I can't remember exactly why i didn't use it nearly two years ago when i was performing my own adjustments...

I was concerned at the time about misfires on moving images after reset which was cleared with raising FSAD and SUS, lowering FS1D for me. Some don't get misfires on moving images or white misfires near black post reset. Some get black lagging, i never at the time thinking back.


But a lot of panels react differently post reset. But it could be helpful to some as unfortunately none of this is black and white
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post #2172 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 08:40 AM
 
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A combination of raising FSAD whilst lowering FS4D may be idea (keeping within the sum total me and makaveddie81 were referring to earlier from the Pioneer service manuals)
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post #2173 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 09:05 AM
 
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I still reckon each panel would have benefited from individual hand adjustment in th factory.

But i can't see how that was the case because most people have identical voltages from the factory. Only RTSP seems to differ greatly

But reading these manuals some could have been adjusted slightly differently while keeping within specification.

But i doubt they had the time nor the money to do so latterly so were set up basically all the same but we know plasma can behave differently from two of the same size and model
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post #2174 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 09:27 AM
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Wonder how the panels that don't suffer with it slipped through the net?😁

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post #2175 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 10:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigyboy View Post

Wonder how the panels that don't suffer with it slipped through the net?😁

Perhaps these were set correctly at the factory (the tint free ones)
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post #2176 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

A combination of raising FSAD whilst lowering FS4D may be idea (keeping within the sum total me and makaveddie81 were referring to earlier from the Pioneer service manuals)

I guess you mean that the sum of yknofsad + fs3 must be 254 or lower?
Is this really necessary post reset? I mean most panels seems to have a factory default value of 128 for fs3, this means that yknofsad cannot be set higher than 126 :/
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post #2177 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 02:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrno View Post

I guess you mean that the sum of yknofsad + fs3 must be 254 or lower?
Is this really necessary post reset? I mean most panels seems to have a factory default value of 128 for fs3, this means that yknofsad cannot be set higher than 126 :/

I don't know for sure. I don't think anyone but Pioneer know and perhaps one or two (top) . pro's.

There is no information/instructions for panels with thousands of hours of ageing.

I do know that my sold 500A which i reset, adjusted and sold to my mate Scott is running very well a year (2Khrs later). No tint, black and no artefacts/misfires.

These were VOL SUS about 152, FS1D 114, FS3D 124, FSAD about 152, Xsus b 127, Ysus b 127. These were the ones for me...

But then again presumably there will be at least some magenta misfiring on COMBI 7 pattern on 72/75 vs. But i don't know until i go visit him next month or two as he has no way to access SM and i will be taking my service remote along with me.

I'm guessing not much though as SUS and FSAD are raised post reset...
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post #2178 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 02:15 PM
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How do I get a service remote or can a harmony remote work on a 5020. I want to access a 5020 for isf and service menu. Can anyone help?
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post #2179 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

FSA controls the other ones all in one go (except VOL SUS or extremely small amounts)

Wait, FSAD control every voltage except for VOL SUS? I thought FSAD only controlled 1, 3 and 4.
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post #2180 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 03:50 PM
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Per service manual:

The drive sequence for Video 60-Hz is used for adjustment. When adjustment is made using the Panel Factory menu, the
current drive sequence is displayed on the screen, as shown in the figure below. Make sure that 60VS is always indicated
during adjustment.

So I'm calling it a day when I don't get sparkles with 60VS. I won't even look at 72 and 75.
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post #2181 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrno View Post

Stue,

Just discovered that i have magenta misfires on combi mask 07. Specially on 72 and 75 hz. Do i need to raise vol sus to get rid of it? On a normal 100% white field i have no misfires.

That makes two of us. I see misfires on combi mask 7 and pattern mask 23. No misfires on any other internal patterns or on white fields from calibration discs or content for that matter.

Stu, any explanation on this? I'm close to not caring about those two patterns.
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post #2182 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 04:21 PM
 
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Your panel makaveddie81 - entirely up to yourself which point you stop at.

With regards to FSAD.

If sending commands (RS232) the setting's/values need to be sent 'individually'.
.. These aren't interlocked when using PC commands.

If using the service menu with remote control is when values move together. But i believe certainly most with FSA.

Perhaps your program could tell you exactly if it hasn't already smile.gif
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post #2183 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Your panel makaveddie81 - entirely up to yourself which point you stop at.

With regards to FSAD.

If sending commands (RS232) the setting's/values need to be sent 'individually'.
.. These aren't interlocked when using PC commands.

If using the service menu with remote control is when values move together. But i believe certainly most with FSA.

Perhaps your program could tell you exactly if it hasn't already smile.gif

By ALL voltages I mean that... ALL (RSTP, SUS, OFFSET, etc) not just volyknofsa1, 3 and 4. I was under the impression that SAD only affects volyknofsa1, 3 and 4.

Using RS-232 commands (or service menu with remote for that matter) changing SAD does not modify the values for volyknofsa1, 3 and 4 (and vice-versa) I guess the interlocking mechanism is done internally, with the values not even changing in the service menu overlay?
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post #2184 of 2874 Old 02-17-2014, 06:06 PM
 
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Yeah you're right they won't change values on screen whilst doing it - why these patterns are handy for visual adjustments for sure.

How's the Kuro atm anyway ?
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post #2185 of 2874 Old 02-18-2014, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Yeah you're right they won't change values on screen whilst doing it - why these patterns are handy for visual adjustments for sure.

How's the Kuro atm anyway ?

I managed to get rid of magenta sparkles and recover my OLED blacks. I still see some black rain, but I can live with it. I'll have a detailed write up later, as the notes that I collected were not in order and barely legible. I'll start from scratch again and replicate my results to complete the write up.

To lower blacks I had to lower yknofsad from 128 to 108 which caused a plethora of magenta sparkles. I got rid of them by lowering vol offset by roughly the same amount. So with yknofsad lowered from 128 to 108, I lowered vol offset from 113 to 93, which removed most of the sparkles. I then fine tuned vol offset to eliminate the remaining sparkles. It's a very sensitive adjustment. Final value is 91. The reason I adjusted vol offset is because, along with yknofsad, its one of the voltages that needs adjustment after panel replacement. Looks like my hunch worked out.

Another important key is to get the spacing (and value) of yknofsa3 and yknofsa4 correct. This was the most time consuming task. I'll dive into details in the write up, as I want to nail down the behavior of these two voltages. Right now, yknofsa3 is at 117 and yknofsa4 is at 128. 101-FD service manual indicates that these two should be 21 ticks apart. I settled on these values by increasing and decreasing each individually and noting their effect on sparkles. Once I settled on an acceptable separation, I moved both simultaneously up and down until I reduced magenta sparkles. Even with the separation at 11, having them too low or high created magenta sparkles.

I did yknofsa1 last, as increasing or decreasing it had no effect with regards to magenta sparkles. Increasing it did reduce/eliminate black rain, but also increased black level. I found a sweet spot where blacks look OLED and black rain is minimal (122).
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post #2186 of 2874 Old 02-18-2014, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

I managed to get rid of magenta sparkles and recover my OLED blacks. I still see some black rain, but I can live with it. I'll have a detailed write up later, as the notes that I collected were not in order and barely legible. I'll start from scratch again and replicate my results to complete the write up.

To lower blacks I had to lower yknofsad from 128 to 108 which caused a plethora of magenta sparkles. I got rid of them by lowering vol offset by roughly the same amount. So with yknofsad lowered from 128 to 108, I lowered vol offset from 113 to 93, which removed most of the sparkles. I then fine tuned vol offset to eliminate the remaining sparkles. It's a very sensitive adjustment. Final value is 91. The reason I adjusted vol offset is because, along with yknofsad, its one of the voltages that needs adjustment after panel replacement. Looks like my hunch worked out.

Another important key is to get the spacing (and value) of yknofsa3 and yknofsa4 correct. This was the most time consuming task. I'll dive into details in the write up, as I want to nail down the behavior of these two voltages. Right now, yknofsa3 is at 117 and yknofsa4 is at 128. 101-FD service manual indicates that these two should be 21 ticks apart. I settled on these values by increasing and decreasing each individually and noting their effect on sparkles. Once I settled on an acceptable separation, I moved both simultaneously up and down until I reduced magenta sparkles. Even with the separation at 11, having them too low or high created magenta sparkles.

I did yknofsa1 last, as increasing or decreasing it had no effect with regards to magenta sparkles. Increasing it did reduce/eliminate black rain, but also increased black level. I found a sweet spot where blacks look OLED and black rain is minimal (122).

So a few pages back you posted lowering the YKNOFSAD was not safe ,when I lowerer mine I see no ill effects, no misfires or sparkles , every panel is different I am sure , I like your info , keep it coming , maybe you can com e up with a real guide .

Thanks
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post #2187 of 2874 Old 02-18-2014, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post

So a few pages back you posted lowering the YKNOFSAD was not safe ,when I lowerer mine I see no ill effects, no misfires or sparkles , every panel is different I am sure , I like your info , keep it coming , maybe you can com e up with a real guide .

Thanks

That was before I increased yknofsad from 128 to 129 to test my program's ability to both detect and correct voltages that are outside factory standard. Ever since then, my panel was not the same and my blacks were not lowering with my previous "safe" method. The only way to bring them down was to decrease yknofsad - I had no choice. Do I feel comfortable with it at 108? Nope. If I wouldn't have increased it to 129, I would have never engaged in lowering volyknofsad and vol offset as my set was perfect with my "safe" method - oled blacks, no black rain, no misfires, with all voltages withing factory range.

Did you reset your panel? If you did, then that's most likely the reason why you are not getting sparkles when adjusting volyknofsad. My panel has never been reset.

I believe that increasing volyknofsad affected the panel's algorithms and yknofsa1, 3 and 4 were no longer working in synergy. So no, I wouldn't recommend adjusting volyknofsad at all. But for those who did and are experiencing magenta sparkles, try reducing vol offset by the same amount. You''l be surprised with the results. My VOL SUS is still at 128 fyi.
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post #2188 of 2874 Old 02-18-2014, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post

That was before I increased yknofsad from 128 to 129 to test my program's ability to both detect and correct voltages that are outside factory standard. Ever since then, my panel was not the same and my blacks were not lowering with my previous "safe" method. The only way to bring them down was to decrease yknofsad - I had no choice. Do I feel comfortable with it at 108? Nope. If I wouldn't have increased it to 129, I would have never engaged in lowering volyknofsad and vol offset as my set was perfect with my "safe" method - oled blacks, no black rain, no misfires, with all voltages withing factory range.

Did you reset your panel? If you did, then that's most likely the reason why you are not getting sparkles when adjusting volyknofsad. My panel has never been reset.

I believe that increasing volyknofsad affected the panel's algorithms and yknofsa1, 3 and 4 were no longer working in synergy. So no, I wouldn't recommend adjusting volyknofsad at all. But for those who did and are experiencing magenta sparkles, try reducing vol offset by the same amount. You''l be surprised with the results. My VOL SUS is still at 128 fyi.

I have a 101 that has not been reset , 800 hours , so is still very new , by adjusting the FSAD it keeps the factory spacing between 1-3-4 .

thanks again for sharing your info ,
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post #2189 of 2874 Old 02-18-2014, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post

I have a 101 that has not been reset , 800 hours , so is still very new , by adjusting the FSAD it keeps the factory spacing between 1-3-4 .

thanks again for sharing your info ,

Any adjustment made to FSAD will not change the values for 1-3-4 in the factory menu display - check it out for yourself - so of course it will appear that the spacing (or their values) are not affected when adjusting FSAD. I believe adjusting FSAD is unsafe because it appears that adjusting it changes the values for 1-3-4 internally, so you will lose track of where 1-3-4 are at and will have to use different masks to determine if they are correct. Changing 1-3-4 individually by the same amount is safer because you know where they stand and whether or not they are still within factory range. No adjustment to FSAD needed.

My 101 has 900 hours and did not experience any artifacts when lowering blacks the safe way. This all changed when I increased FSAD to 129.

What is your current FSAD voltage?
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post #2190 of 2874 Old 02-18-2014, 12:44 PM
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it is set @ 100 , no changes to any other settings. I know adjusting FSAD will not show any changes to 1-3-4 , it is an internal adjustment that keeps the same delta between all 3 , its in the service menu to use FSAD to adjust the other three VOL as they are interlocked

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1361871/official-pioneer-kuro-reddish-tint-problem-thread/870#post_22020003
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