Official Pioneer Kuro Reddish Tint Problem Thread - Page 8 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Does your Kuro have a reddish tint to the blacks?
KRP-500M/KRP-600M - NO 5 14.71%
5020FD/6020FD - NO 2 5.88%
111FD/151FD - NO 5 14.71%
101FD/141FD - NO 4 11.76%
Other/Older Model (please post) - NO 2 5.88%
KRP-500M/KRP-600M - YES 7 20.59%
5020FD/6020FD - YES 6 17.65%
111FD/151FD - YES 2 5.88%
101FD/141FD - YES 2 5.88%
Other/Older Model (please post) - YES 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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post #211 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by mascior View Post

Yeah, I read that. I just changed those 3 voltages but my VOL YNOFSA D still stayed at a factory value 128. If you raise that value to high by its self my blacks went back to a red tint. If you raise RST P to high you get greyish blacks. so many combos...lol.

Sounds too tempting to resist, can't wait to check this tonight. Interesting that raising YNOFSA D gives black the red tint and raising RST P gives the grey tint. I guess the only way to know for sure if the levels are correct would be through calibration? It seems there is a way to calibrate black levels here.
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post #212 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 06:33 AM
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for those with 101/500m's, i would love to see what your indicated values are to compare against mine!

stroud and mascior.....you guys are mad men!! great job!!
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post #213 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 1forsnow View Post

for those with 101/500m's, i would love to see what your indicated values are to compare against mine!

stroud and mascior.....you guys are mad men!! great job!!

lol
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post #214 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 06:41 AM
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Hello,

Which are the values for a KRP500A and if one can use controlcal to change the values?
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post #215 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by MATAMBOY View Post

Hello,

Which are the values for a KRP500A and if one can use controlcal to change the values?

I could not find the service manual for the 500A but I'm 99% sure it's the same as a 500M but with a different tuner.
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post #216 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 06:47 AM
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Thank you , do I thus base myself on the procedure for 500M ?
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post #217 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow it sounds like it is getting more complicated as there are several voltage parameters and they each change the display differently. It seems weird that you guys say the screen is TOO black if you set the VOL RST P too low. Didn't you guys say to drop it as low as possible (which you would get sparklies correct?) and then just raise it until the sparkles go away. It is starting to sound like if I go in and change something then I may screw up my black levels one way or another (crushing blacks or having greyish blacks). It really sounds like you need to calibrate the display when you make these adjustments and that is something I can't do haha.

So looking at the different voltage values for the different models that Stroud posted, does that mean that all of our displays (same model of course) should have the same voltages? Do you guys know if the panel automatically adjusts the voltage as the panel ages?

Stroud and Mascior: Are you guys professional calibrators or very familiar with the service menu? I just ask because you both seem to know a lot about the topic and seem fine with doing all of these adjustments. I think one or both of you also mentioned using a meter to calibrate your display so that is another reason I ask. Thanks again for your guys hard work! I look forward to hearing what else you guys discover but I am going to try and get a tech to come out and do mine haha
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post #218 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Mac13 View Post

Wow it sounds like it is getting more complicated as there are several voltage parameters and they each change the display differently. It seems weird that you guys say the screen is TOO black if you set the VOL RST P too low. Didn't you guys say to drop it as low as possible (which you would get sparklies correct?) and then just raise it until the sparkles go away. It is starting to sound like if I go in and change something then I may screw up my black levels one way or another (crushing blacks or having greyish blacks). It really sounds like you need to calibrate the display when you make these adjustments and that is something I can't do haha.

So looking at the different voltage values for the different models that Stroud posted, does that mean that all of our displays (same model of course) should have the same voltages? Do you guys know if the panel automatically adjusts the voltage as the panel ages?

Stroud and Mascior: Are you guys professional calibrators or very familiar with the service menu? I just ask because you both seem to know a lot about the topic and seem fine with doing all of these adjustments. I think one or both of you also mentioned using a meter to calibrate your display so that is another reason I ask. Thanks again for your guys hard work! I look forward to hearing what else you guys discover but I am going to try and get a tech to come out and do mine haha

According to service manual the panel adjusts itself over time depending on hours used and number of emitted pulses. ("...various corrections are made referring to the pulse-meter count to calculate how long the panel has been used").

My view is that the voltages for each model start out the same (the tentative values). As the panel begins to age, the voltages are adjusted to compensate for panel degradation.

Not sure what parameters pioneer used for this compensation model but I would have thought it was based on typical use such as Standard settings.

Imagine you could create a graph for each model. If you had hours used on one side and voltage adjustments on the other you could plot where these should be for your particular TV.

My thinking is that standard settings (really bright / shop floor settings) will equate to more panel use than calibrated settings?
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post #219 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stroud View Post

According to service manual the panel adjusts itself over time depending on hours used and number of emitted pulses.

My view is that the voltages for each model start out the same (the tentative values). As the panel begins to age, the voltages are adjusted to compensate for panel degradation.

Not sure what parameters pioneer used for this compensation model but I would have thought it was based on typical use such as Standard settings.

Imagine you could create a graph for each model. If you had hours used on one side and voltage adjustments on the other you could plot where these should be for your particular TV.

My thinking is that standard settings (really bright / shop floor settings) will equate to more panel use than calibrated settings?

It sounds like they screwed up a bit on their aging compensation program...ala Panasonic's rising blacks problem. But it seems the Pioneer goof is correctable whereas the Panny one isn't. I'm scared to try it until we have more info though.
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post #220 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 09:18 AM
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"Does your Kuro have a reddish tint to the blacks?"

I have an 8G Kuro, the 110FD. I don't see reddish blacks with content, but I do see a "reddish" cast to the screen when there is no content - blank input. The screen doesn't look uniform to begin with and seems to look reddish gradating from the center to the right side of the screen. I find this thread really interesting and I'll be watching to see if any of the 8G folks try this fix and if Pioneer can help us with a software update via USB. That's more my speed rather than playing with the service menu.
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post #221 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac13 View Post

Wow it sounds like it is getting more complicated as there are several voltage parameters and they each change the display differently. It seems weird that you guys say the screen is TOO black if you set the VOL RST P too low. Didn't you guys say to drop it as low as possible (which you would get sparklies correct?) and then just raise it until the sparkles go away. It is starting to sound like if I go in and change something then I may screw up my black levels one way or another (crushing blacks or having greyish blacks). It really sounds like you need to calibrate the display when you make these adjustments and that is something I can't do haha.


i am ready to try the fix on my 1150hd (8g) set but the above scares me. are you guys finding that the fix makes adjusting the above necessary?
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post #222 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mascior View Post

Stroud,

I was able to tweek sum adjustments...I played with VOL RST P and dropped it to zero, WOW talk about black but it caused sparkles. After talking to a Pioneer engineer last week he said adjusting VOL SUS up a bit would cure sparkles as well. So now my VOL SUS is 198, VOL RST P is 018, and I adjusted my FS1, 3, & 4 D voltages up 20 clicks each. Now I have really deep blacks(Bezel blending) and no sparkles. I will keep testing.

Mascior why did you raise your VOL SUS to 198? Or is this a typo? Before, you said you had it at 128 and the defaults posted from the service manuals also say 128. Thanks!
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post #223 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 10:27 AM
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From what I am understanding here, it sounds like one will need to reset the voltage and a few other settings manually, after tricking the panel to think it is brand new. I cant imagine just tricking the panel by clearing hours would not create other issues such as crushing blacks or sparkles, because in reality most tvs will have thousand of hours on them already. Would not tricking panel to think it is new, when in fact it isnt, create a lot of other issues down the road as more hours are put on tv?

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post #224 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 10:35 AM
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I also would be curious how many people were able to use Stroud's 4 step method without making any adjustments to other settings vs those who ended up with sparklies etc, after doing such procedure. We may need to buy Stroud a Christmas gift for all his help here!

"The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory"
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post #225 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

So what we have here is a milder case of the Panasonic rising blacks issue...but with a red tint thrown in. I have control-cal. Wonder if I can use that to reset the panel? Or can one use the factory remote to do all this? I sure don't want to tackle fixing a subtle problem and end up with a big mess unless I know exactly what I am doing! lol

I would say yes and no. Rising blacks on Pannies also changed the PQ and you had to do a physical board swap in order to get it back down. This you can just correct yourself from the SM - assuming you're unlucky enough to have gotten it in the first place.
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post #226 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post

From what I am understanding here, it sounds like one will need to reset the voltage and a few other settings manually, after tricking the panel to think it is brand new. I cant imagine just tricking the panel by clearing hours would not create other issues such as crushing blacks or sparkles, because in reality most tvs will have thousand of hours on them already. Would not tricking panel to think it is new, when in fact it isnt, create a lot of other issues down the road as more hours are put on tv?

I think any changes down the road will also be able to be adjusted out. I have only moved from the tentative original values on RST P and this is only at 062. I think there is plently of scope for adjustment before the panel reaches the end of it's life.

Also I did try mascior's values but this seemed to add more grey / red so I have reverted back. The difference wasn't huge however.

Once the TV is adjusted, the TV's own ageing process will continue so I am not expecting to see any red tinge for at least the next 4000 hours!
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post #227 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 11:58 AM
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Just tried the Pioneer Tech support line and no one knows anything about the reddish blacks. I am tired of Pioneer denying these issues all the time. I will try the resets and let you know what happens.
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post #228 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stroud View Post

I think any changes down the road will also be able to be adjusted out. I have only moved from the tentative original values on RST P and this is only at 062. I think there is plently of scope for adjustment before the panel reaches the end of it's life.

Also I did try mascior's values but this seemed to add more grey / red so I have reverted back. The difference wasn't huge however.

Stroud what input/content are you displaying on the screen when you are checking how the TV looks? Are you in a completely dark room also? I know the red tint or grayish blacks are much more prominent when the room is completely dark.
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post #229 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 02:17 PM
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I'd settle by leaving VOL SUS to 128. This (128) seems to be the default value.
Alter VOL RST P to remove sparkles or to bring the black level to an even lower MLL.

Changing too many variables will probably affect calibration. Also, perhaps increasing VOL SUS from the default value will cause premature aging on the panel.

Keep it Simple!

I will let my KURO run for a couple of days to let it settle in and will proceed with checking the calibration.
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post #230 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 02:24 PM
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Can anyone recommend a good USB 2 serial cable. I understand not all of them work correctly. Wanna give this fix a try
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post #231 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Astro what all did you do to your display? You just reset the two logs or did you mess with some of the voltages? Did you get any sparkles? Thanks and keep us posted on how your set settles in

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Originally Posted by astrodoob View Post

I'd settle by leaving VOL SUS to 128. This (128) seems to be the default value.
Alter VOL RST P to remove sparkles or to bring the black level to an even lower MLL.

Changing too many variables will probably affect calibration. Also, perhaps increasing VOL SUS from the default value will cause premature aging on the panel.

Keep it Simple!

I will let my KURO run for a couple of days to let it settle in and will proceed with checking the calibration.

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post #232 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 02:35 PM
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did any of you guys with a meter happen to make a grayscale run yet? i know my krp500 is off now. my RGB color points on my CIE chart are still the same, but grayscale is off. i retained all my isf settings too. just an FYI, but kinda expected i guess.....
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post #233 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac13 View Post

Stroud what input/content are you displaying on the screen when you are checking how the TV looks? Are you in a completely dark room also? I know the red tint or grayish blacks are much more prominent when the room is completely dark.

I use a blank input to check and enter factory mode. You have to be on a 60hz signal to adjust which a blank input provides.

You can also see the screen while in the factory menu, voltage changes are apparent in the black.

Yes completely dark room. I then test with a blu ray with black bars.

Just finished my second evening of viewing, no issues to report.
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post #234 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrodoob View Post

I'd settle by leaving VOL SUS to 128. This (128) seems to be the default value.
Alter VOL RST P to remove sparkles or to bring the black level to an even lower MLL.

Changing too many variables will probably affect calibration. Also, perhaps increasing VOL SUS from the default value will cause premature aging on the panel.

Keep it Simple!

I will let my KURO run for a couple of days to let it settle in and will proceed with checking the calibration.

Agree that altering VOL RST P seems to be the way to go if adjustments are required. Also interested to see the result of your calibration, please let us know how it goes.
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post #235 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
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Astro what all did you do to your display? You just reset the two logs or did you mess with some of the voltages? Did you get any sparkles? Thanks and keep us posted on how your set settles in

Hi Mac13,

I just did the two resets. After the POF command, I switched off the TV from the power socket. Turned it ON and took note to see if I could see anything abnormal on the picture.

I then checked the greyscale (video input only) and check if there is a colour cast on the screen. Fortunately, I could not determine any drifts from 10IRE to 100IRE. All good! 0IRE was just errr... BLACK!

I also went and did some test from 100IRE to 0IRE to see if there are any sparkles on the black screen. Fortunately, nothing! So for me, I'll leave it as it is!

The reset seems as some might have mentioned already into fooling the system/panel that the TV is brand new. So therefore, it is probably wise to let things settle in and then check the calibration once the set has had some hours into it.

If I did encounter any issues, then I'd play around with VOL RST P.

Overall, I truly believe Pioneer made this KURO technology legendary.

NB: I wouldn't have bothered resetting the panel, but I was disappointed with my MLL of 0.003! I wanted KURO black level! I simply gave it a shot and presto... BLACK level is back to where it should be. KURO that is!

If I did ruin my Kuro, at least for me the Pioneer Service centre is not too far away. I would have called them to check and recalibrate the service menu settings.
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post #236 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 05:47 PM
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Alright guy's I have some updates...spoke with my guy over at Pioneer service today and this is what he said. After you reset your panel you need to have your VOL SUS set at a maximum of 215v a value of 143 in the service menu from your 128 factory default if necessary. If you still see sparkles he said to adjust your VOL OFFSET a few clicks. Next, he said keep FS1, FS3, & FS4 at factory settings and raise your FSA D a couple of clicks up. Last, he said to adjust your VOL RST P until all artifacts are gone. I was able to put my D3 Pro to work and after all these adjustments I still have a MLL of Y:0 not .001(Still a slight grey glow though but not red...lol), My R,G,B,Y,C,&M didn't change but my greyscale needed some adjustment only in the high...low was fine. My gamma was still linear, I was able to still get 35ftl in isf night, and 45ftl in isf day.
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post #237 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 06:06 PM
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oh and also...command MKCS01 (which is the moving greyscale ramp) is an awesome internal panel pattern to check for abnormality's and while adjusting voltages. To exit the pattern send the FAY command.
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post #238 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 06:22 PM
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mascior-

so what the pioneer tech said is dont raise the VOL SUS higher than 143, right? i assume VOL OFFSET and VOL SUS are related. VOL OFFSET gets you the rest of the way if you still have sparkles?

what does raising or lowering FSA D do?

thanks again for all your help!
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post #239 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mascior View Post

Alright guy's I have some updates...spoke with my guy over at Pioneer service today and this is what he said. After you reset your panel you need to have your VOL SUS set at a maximum of 215v a value of 143 in the service menu from your 128 factory default if necessary. If you still see sparkles he said to adjust your VOL OFFSET a few clicks. Next, he said keep FS1, FS3, & FS4 at factory settings and raise your FSA D a couple of clicks up. Last, he said to adjust your VOL RST P until all artifacts are gone. I was able to put my D3 Pro to work and after all these adjustments I still have a MLL of Y:0 not .001(Still a slight grey glow though but not red...lol), My R,G,B,Y,C,&M didn't change but my greyscale needed some adjustment only in the high...low was fine. My gamma was still linear, I was able to still get 35ftl in isf night, and 45ftl in isf day.

A little confused here, so after resetting, we should raise VOL SUS to 143, or only if we have sparkles? If we do have sparkles, leave it at 143 and adjust VOL OFFSET?

Thanks for you help!

I think 1forsnow just answered that question. Keep raising to a max of 143 if you have sparkles. If that doesn't cure it, then adjust the others you listed.

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post #240 of 2680 Old 12-05-2011, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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1forsnow did you ever get rid of your sparkles? If so, what ended up working and what are you thinking of the set now? I have a 500M and was hoping some others with 500Ms had tried this procedure and gotten it to work to their satisfaction. I was also wondering what values you ended up using as the 500M seems to need slightly different values based off of the defaults in the service manual.

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mascior-

so what the pioneer tech said is dont raise the VOL SUS higher than 143, right? i assume VOL OFFSET and VOL SUS are related. VOL OFFSET gets you the rest of the way if you still have sparkles?

what does raising or lowering FSA D do?

thanks again for all your help!

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