Official Pioneer Kuro Reddish Tint Problem Thread - Page 91 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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View Poll Results: Does your Kuro have a reddish tint to the blacks?
KRP-500M/KRP-600M - NO 15 14.15%
5020FD/6020FD - NO 4 3.77%
111FD/151FD - NO 16 15.09%
101FD/141FD - NO 9 8.49%
Other/Older Model (please post) - NO 8 7.55%
KRP-500M/KRP-600M - YES 25 23.58%
5020FD/6020FD - YES 14 13.21%
111FD/151FD - YES 8 7.55%
101FD/141FD - YES 6 5.66%
Other/Older Model (please post) - YES 4 3.77%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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post #2701 of 2877 Old 11-07-2014, 05:32 PM
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I'm in the same boat as gardear1 currently on options to lower red tint. A little back story first. I've owned my KRP-500m since 2011. I believe the red tint has always been on my display even on initial purchase from the original owner but I was in such a honeymoon phase with this display that I really wasn't paying attention to its deficiencies. I also didn't have much time to really use my display while stationed on the east coast. Now that I'm back in school, I've had plenty more free time to watch content and extract my display's capabilities. About 2 months back I did full calibrations (I1D3 HCFR/ChromaPure Chroma5) with KuroControl for the ISF modes. That's the first time the red tint became fully apparent to me (never even knew of this thread). Unfortunately, I didn't take note of the hours of my display before switching from the NA to Euro to access ISF. My best guess would be about 7500+ hrs from both the previous owner and I. I've probably put in the ballpark of 2000+ hours on my set since I've owned it.

All that said, my red tint situation can be seen in areas of uneven phosphor wear. It's more apparent in the side masking areas due to the fact I tend to watch a lot of mixed aspect ratio content (Previous owner more than likely watched a ton of mixed content as well). For the most part, RSTP 1 and a reduction in S134D to minimum factory recommended ranges has helped. The tint is still there but not to the extent it was before. I'd also like to interject that it's the fact that the Kuro puts out such a good picture that it warrants the expectations that owners have for this device. I wish I was the first owner and had a baseline for how the 500m looked originally. Buying second hand, I doubt I really saw what made the Kuro in it's last iteration such a reference device to reviewers and owners. I'm thinking of lowering SAD to at most minimum factory to see if that will help like gardear1 has done. I'm a bit apprehensive about resetting for various reasons at the moment but am not ruling it out as a last resort option.

I do want to thank all those who have contributed to putting all this information out there and giving us the opportunity to utilize different options. I'm kinda glad that there are a lot kuro owners out there willing to go this far to mitigate the issue and get as much performance with respect to reducing MLL for their displays. For the most part, I've read all of the reset/non-reset thread, skimmed large portions of this main thread, and have the service manual. This is a snapshot at 0%. my I1D3 usually gets unmeasurable so I'd like to think my black level is pretty low (probably high to most on this thread who have their MLL tweaked to much lower). 0.003 cdm2/0.000875591 FTL is still above the claimed 0.0005 FTL of this display so I'd like to at least try to get below that. Personally, the screenshot makes the situation look a lot worse than what I see. I'm probably at the limits for the I1D3 reading but I think everyone who has calibrated CRT's has a certain expectation of minimal to 0 MLL.

Manufacture date is April 2009 so is it safe to say 9.5g parts for 0.0005 Foot Lamberts MLL? Thanks to anyone who can provide input.

POST NOTE: I've decided to hold off on reducing SAD per makaveddie81 @ post 2201. I already have S134D @ 118,108,129. Since SAD reduces all 3 by the same amount I'd basically be doing the same exact thing if I brought S134D back to default and reduced SAD 20 ticks. When first following the non-reset guide 2 weeks ago, I reduced S134D by 30 ticks from default for a few mins but was encountering IR so decided to stay within factory recommended range just to play it safe.
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Last edited by ceru; 11-07-2014 at 08:27 PM.
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post #2702 of 2877 Old 11-10-2014, 09:31 AM
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I'm happy to say the red tint has not returned on my 500M since my last bit of tinkering months ago. I'm not sure how many hours since but its been a lot. The black rain over time has been pretty much eliminated and only a hint on scrolling ATV photos. I'm willing to bet that will go away completely soon enough. The black levels are now what I would call normal from what I remember when I first bought the unit, probably a bit better.

The television screen is the retina of the mind's eye.
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post #2703 of 2877 Old 11-15-2014, 05:39 AM
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Picked up a used PRO-141FD that has this same red tint problem. I've read through a lot of this thread, but what's the recommended strategy today to combat this annoying red tint?
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post #2704 of 2877 Old 11-15-2014, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by knewknow View Post
Picked up a used PRO-141FD that has this same red tint problem. I've read through a lot of this thread, but what's the recommended strategy today to combat this annoying red tint?
First

Lower RSTP to 002 and then recheck.
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post #2705 of 2877 Old 11-15-2014, 04:57 PM
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Curious, is there any way to correct this on a 5020? Five and a half years old, probably at around 10,000 hours.


Reading more, there does seem to be a reset option, or a voltage tweak? Let me read more. If anyone has any links or the how-to on this, please let me know.
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post #2706 of 2877 Old 11-15-2014, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post
First

Lower RSTP to 002 and then recheck.
knewknow,

I would go with qwknuf6's suggestion if all you are after is reducing red tint. If you want lower mll, follow tubby's guide to bring S134D to "at most" factory minimum. 141's and 600m's from what I've read don't fair as well with a reset compared to the 500m's if you are looking to really lower mll. My experience from my non-reset 500m is that RSTP has helped reduce the red tint from what it used to be but does not eliminate it in my case.

141/600M SERVICE MANUAL
http://elektrotanya.com/pioneer_pro-.../download.html

Read Gigglebug's experiences at AVForums on his 600m.
https://www.avforums.com/threads/pio...719687/page-34

Hope this helps. I'm fairly new to the issue as well even though I've had my 500M for quite some time. I did notice the red tint a few years back but I chocked it up to not having the time to really sit down and do a full calibration of my display.
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post #2707 of 2877 Old 11-16-2014, 03:21 PM
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I actually tried out Tubby's method last night and ended up lowering RSTP to 001 and still had a lot of red tint. Using Tubby's guide of lowering SAD (or individual controls) still left me with a lot of red and introduced black specks when changing scenes from dark to light. I ended up placing all settings back as they were.

I just read gigglebugs posts and he has S1 set to 1 right now! That sounds a bit scary, but I'll keep watching that thread.

Btw, I really appreciate everyone's feedback and help. The set has 14,000+ hours on it and still looks quite amazing. Last thing I want to do is mess it up with a reset, but those reds are difficult to ignore.

Last edited by knewknow; 11-16-2014 at 03:35 PM.
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post #2708 of 2877 Old 11-16-2014, 05:56 PM
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It's unfortunate that RSTP wasn't able to reduce red tint in your case. I feel a bit more fortunate to have come late to the party concerning this issue. A lot of ppl have given a healthy amount of information which has allowed for many angles in tackling the matter. It's only noticeable atm on a full blackout screen for me. The way I see it is I will eventually have to do a reset whether I like it or not. I'm already at the lowest RSTP and minimum factory for S134D so I've run out of play room for adjustment. These Kuro's are great in so many respects that even with the advent of OLED, I still see little purpose in upgrading. I've already decided my next upgrade will be a projector unless rollable OLED (projection size) screens actually come out lol.
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post #2709 of 2877 Old 11-17-2014, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knewknow View Post
I actually tried out Tubby's method last night and ended up lowering RSTP to 001 and still had a lot of red tint. Using Tubby's guide of lowering SAD (or individual controls) still left me with a lot of red and introduced black specks when changing scenes from dark to light. I ended up placing all settings back as they were.

I just read gigglebugs posts and he has S1 set to 1 right now! That sounds a bit scary, but I'll keep watching that thread.

Btw, I really appreciate everyone's feedback and help. The set has 14,000+ hours on it and still looks quite amazing. Last thing I want to do is mess it up with a reset, but those reds are difficult to ignore.
Whatever you do, do NOT reset your 141fd.

The 60 inch Kuros are not as tweakable as their 50 inch brothers. On the 50 inch iterations, S1, S3 and S4 can be lowered to the minimum values noted in the service manual with little to no artifacts (I have tested on 101fd and 500M), while on the 60 inch models, you will see tons of artifacts if you lower S1, S3 and S4 to the minimum values. You can only go about halfway (15 ticks) before you start seeing artifacts (I have tested on 151fd and 141fd). Of course, there are exceptions, but the above is what you will see more often than not. This is with RSTP already at 1. What I have found is that, regardless of how much adjustment room you have, the end result will be about the same black level wise. For instance, I could only go down 15 ticks on my 141fd while on a 151fd, I was able to go down to minimum. The 141fd had about 5000 hours while the 151fd had about 17000 hours (and was afflicted with red tint). They both measured the same with regards to black level. Perhaps hours and the presence of red tint factor in how much adjustment room you have.

A reset is equivalent to reducing S1, S3 and S4 to values below the minimum values specified in the service manual. This is why EVERYONE who has reset finds that they have to increase S1, S3 and S4 to remove artifacts and bring the panel back to satisfactory performance. If you want to replicate the effect of a reset, lower these three values below the minimum values. It will not be pretty, though if your red tint didnt go away with the minimum values, its worth the shot. You can always set them back to the factory default values, whereas with a reset, you will be shooting in the dark trying to find the correct values.

I will no longer be purchasing any Kuros unless I can test them in a pitch black room and the price is right. I recently purchased three Kuros (from separate buyers) and all three were afflicted with red tint. You cannot spot red tint unless you inspect the Kuro in a pitch black room and put up an all black field. I tested all of them in broad daylight and the sellers did the best they could to remove ambient light. On all three, I discovered the "surprise" once I got them home and tested in a pitch black room. I was able to remove the red tint on all of them, but had to go below factory values on one of them, which gave way to some interesting artifacts.

I really believe that the majority of Kuros on the market are being sold because they have some sort of defect (most likely red tint). If you think about it, who in the right mind (unless upgrading to OLED or for financial reasons) would sell a perfectly working, mint Kuro?
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post #2710 of 2877 Old 11-17-2014, 08:39 PM
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Thx makaveddie81 for all your helpful posts to those that may be a bit apprehensive to resetting. I was able to use KuroKapture to help find out my actual hours I have on my set.

0 ECO: QS3
1 SERIAL: IDPM004153UC
2 HOUR METER: 00054810
3 TOTAL HR METER: 00768140
4 PON COUNTER: 00000135
5 Panel temperature: +28.9
6 Reserved (TEMP0 acquisition): ---.-
7 MAX panel temperature history: +52.5
8 Reserved: ****
9 2 Byte: 56

It looks like I'm over 8200hrs if I'm reading that right. Since I used KuroControl to access the ISF modes, I forgot to take note of the hours I had accumulated before I changed my 500M from NA to EU. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the main culprit behind the red tint was the aging algorithms. I will test again, but even when I tested fairly below factory minimum in the past, I still had red tint. I had lower mll but it still never eliminated the tint (my RSTP is already at 1 from originally 18). Is it safe to say that even if I perform a reset and performed the workflow to recover from under-driven voltage artifacts, red tint would still be present to some minor degree? I feel like in the end, we have only a few choices who want to keep their Kuro's.

1. Either live with inevitable red tint and let the aging algorithms continue to "inaccurately" drive the panel.
2. Reset the display and manually maintain voltages to drive the panels.

I think a lot of the Kuro owners on here who have been sharing information are really semi-tinkerers at heart. The last time I've really felt the absolute need to venture into the service menu was back in my CRT RPTV days. Usually, I only go to the service menu if either I needed White balance control or wanted to set Calibration/White Balance defaults for a TV out of convenience. So for all practical purposes, I'm doing this because I want to extract the most out of what I expect from my display. I still think this display is far and away better than 90% of what is out TV-wise even in 2015.

Last edited by ceru; 11-17-2014 at 08:46 PM.
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post #2711 of 2877 Old 11-18-2014, 12:20 AM
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Your display has been reset 548 hours ago.
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post #2712 of 2877 Old 11-18-2014, 01:08 AM
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Your display has been reset 548 hours ago.
That's when I switched from NA to EU for access to ISF modes.
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post #2713 of 2877 Old 11-18-2014, 11:12 AM
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I thought changing RSTP was enough to lower blacks? makaveddie, what was your 151 mll before and after changing RSTP?

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post #2714 of 2877 Old 11-18-2014, 02:10 PM
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I thought changing RSTP was enough to lower blacks? makaveddie, what was your 151 mll before and after changing RSTP?
I believe it was around .003 before I tweaked it. After reducing RSTP, my black level went down to about .002. After reducing S1, S3 and S4, my i1D3 could not register black level, meaning it was below .001.
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post #2715 of 2877 Old 11-18-2014, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceru View Post
Thx makaveddie81 for all your helpful posts to those that may be a bit apprehensive to resetting. I was able to use KuroKapture to help find out my actual hours I have on my set.

0 ECO: QS3
1 SERIAL: IDPM004153UC
2 HOUR METER: 00054810
3 TOTAL HR METER: 00768140
4 PON COUNTER: 00000135
5 Panel temperature: +28.9
6 Reserved (TEMP0 acquisition): ---.-
7 MAX panel temperature history: +52.5
8 Reserved: ****
9 2 Byte: 56

It looks like I'm over 8200hrs if I'm reading that right. Since I used KuroControl to access the ISF modes, I forgot to take note of the hours I had accumulated before I changed my 500M from NA to EU. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the main culprit behind the red tint was the aging algorithms. I will test again, but even when I tested fairly below factory minimum in the past, I still had red tint. I had lower mll but it still never eliminated the tint (my RSTP is already at 1 from originally 18). Is it safe to say that even if I perform a reset and performed the workflow to recover from under-driven voltage artifacts, red tint would still be present to some minor degree? I feel like in the end, we have only a few choices who want to keep their Kuro's.

1. Either live with inevitable red tint and let the aging algorithms continue to "inaccurately" drive the panel.
2. Reset the display and manually maintain voltages to drive the panels.

I think a lot of the Kuro owners on here who have been sharing information are really semi-tinkerers at heart. The last time I've really felt the absolute need to venture into the service menu was back in my CRT RPTV days. Usually, I only go to the service menu if either I needed White balance control or wanted to set Calibration/White Balance defaults for a TV out of convenience. So for all practical purposes, I'm doing this because I want to extract the most out of what I expect from my display. I still think this display is far and away better than 90% of what is out TV-wise even in 2015.
Yes, you are at the 8229 hour mark. Sounds like your red tint is severe if you are still seeing it with voltages set below factory minimums. How far below the minimums did you go? I had to go down 30 ticks below minimum (S1 87, S3 77, S4 97) to get rid of red tint on a 101fd, though the black rain artifact was pretty bad. I ended up settling for 97, 87, 107 to reduce the black rain effect.

I am not sure if you will be back at square 1 with red tint if you reset and increase S1, S3 and S4 to remove artifacts. There is a way to reset your panel, see how it reacts to the reset and undo the reset to bring your hour and pulses back to their pre-reset state. This method was discovered by Shockfett, who was kind enough to share it with me:

Access service menu
Go to ETC > EEPROM > Delete
The blue LED will start blinking
Now go back to the screen that displays your hour and pulse meter count. You should see "NO DATA" and "ADJUSTED". If not, restart procedure.
Reset your pulse meter. Hour meter is purely cosmetic and does not need to be reset.
Put TV on standby by pressing the standby button on the remote... DO NOT PRESS THE POWER SWITCH ON THE TV OR UNPLUG THE SET.
Press the standby button again to wake the TV up. The blue LED will keep blinking.
Go to the screen that displays your hour and pulse meter count. All five pulse meters will be at 0.
Adjust voltages and test at your leisure
If you want to undo the reset and any voltage adjustments you performed, go to ETC > BACKUP DATA > TRANSFER
If you want to keep the reset and any voltage adjustments you performed, go to ETC > EEPROM > REPAIR
Put TV on standby and wake it up again. The blue LED will stop flashing.
Go to the screen that displays your hour and pulse meter count. If you did not keep the reset, your pulse counts will be back at their pre-reset state.

If you want an explanation of what exactly happens in the background, get with ShockFett. From what I understand, the KURO keeps all service menu settings in two separate memory banks - EEPROM and the digital board. This is similar to a router, where there is a running configuration and a startup configuration. By default, the Kuro makes changes to both the EEPROM and digital board simultaneously. What this procedure does is, its forcing the Kuro to make changes to only the digital board, while leaving the EEPROM intact. The blinking blue LED indicates when the Kuro is forced to behave in this manner. When you decide to undo the reset, you are simply transferring the untouched EEPROM settings to the digital board, effectively overwriting all the changes you made to the digital board. When you decide to keep the reset, then you are "repairing" the EEPROM by copying the modified settings from the digital board to EEPROM.

Again, this is something ShockFett discovered and we each tested on our panels. This is how I realized that I got identical results when performing a reset and simply reducing voltages below factory minimum values.

Now, I am not sure if the reset does something else to clear the red tint, which is why I am presenting this option to you.
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post #2716 of 2877 Old 11-18-2014, 04:29 PM
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Thx Eddie.

That really is an awesome option to have if I should choose to reset. I do feel the need to make it an absolute last resort only if I've exhausted all options. I only went to 30 ticks (currently at 20) below the standard 500M default. I may need to go relatively low to really dial out the red tint in my case while playing with S3/S4 spacing to avoid artifacts. The red tint, like in your cases when you picked up other kuros, is only noticeable when my room has no ambient light and my eyes have adjusted. It's also because my panel has uneven wear on the sides. I'm assuming the algorithm raises voltages uniformly based on the entire hours I've put on the set. Since my sides have less panel wear hours, the raised red voltage is more pronounced. I was thinking what might help in my case is to run slides just on the side masks with either a low apl center or black mask in the center to help even things out.

Would performing your reset recovery workflow thread on a non-reset panel also be helpful to some degree? Like Stu mentioned a while back, even he had to modify his settings slightly (his non-reset panel) to remove artifacts on internal test patterns. Those internal service menu patterns tho, seem to be the extreme far end of where artifacts may occur. I don't even go above 30 FTL/110cdm2 in any of my settings. When I'm in the service menu, it seems like everything is being driven to its limits.

Ideally, my goal is really to get rid of the red tint first and foremost. I'm not shooting for OLED blacks even though any reduction in MLL (without any severe artifacts) is always a plus. MLL will come at a cost of what artifacts I can live with. Bezel blending MLL at 5IRE is where I would say I'd be happy.
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post #2717 of 2877 Old 11-18-2014, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
I really believe that the majority of Kuros on the market are being sold because they have some sort of defect (most likely red tint). If you think about it, who in the right mind (unless upgrading to OLED or for financial reasons) would sell a perfectly working, mint Kuro?
Kuro's are sold for various reasons, red tint is one of them. Other reasons are: new TV after five years, buying a new TV believing it is a upgrade: VT50/VT60/ZT60, F8500, a UHD TV or a OLED TV.
I believe main problem with lots (former)owners is that they are not fully aware what a Plasma TV is and what harm static stuff does. Also i do believe that most owners are not fully aware what a 9G Pioneer Plasma's place is in the TV hierachie.

I bought two kuro's. Each has one stuck pixel. Both have some burn-in issues which only can be seen in a dark room with dark content.
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post #2718 of 2877 Old 11-18-2014, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceru View Post
Thx Eddie.

That really is an awesome option to have if I should choose to reset. I do feel the need to make it an absolute last resort only if I've exhausted all options. I only went to 30 ticks (currently at 20) below the standard 500M default. I may need to go relatively low to really dial out the red tint in my case while playing with S3/S4 spacing to avoid artifacts. The red tint, like in your cases when you picked up other kuros, is only noticeable when my room has no ambient light and my eyes have adjusted. It's also because my panel has uneven wear on the sides. I'm assuming the algorithm raises voltages uniformly based on the entire hours I've put on the set. Since my sides have less panel wear hours, the raised red voltage is more pronounced. I was thinking what might help in my case is to run slides just on the side masks with either a low apl center or black mask in the center to help even things out.

Would performing your reset recovery workflow thread on a non-reset panel also be helpful to some degree? Like Stu mentioned a while back, even he had to modify his settings slightly (his non-reset panel) to remove artifacts on internal test patterns. Those internal service menu patterns tho, seem to be the extreme far end of where artifacts may occur. I don't even go above 30 FTL/110cdm2 in any of my settings. When I'm in the service menu, it seems like everything is being driven to its limits.

Ideally, my goal is really to get rid of the red tint first and foremost. I'm not shooting for OLED blacks even though any reduction in MLL (without any severe artifacts) is always a plus. MLL will come at a cost of what artifacts I can live with. Bezel blending MLL at 5IRE is where I would say I'd be happy.
I have done tons of testing using the service manual workflow and internal patterns and concluded that the separation between S1, S3 and S4 (especially these last two) should not be modified and all should be adjusted simultaneously. There are two reasons why you see artifacts - voltages too low or incorrect separation between S1, S3 and S4. If you want to try this for yourself, with voltages at default, increase S3 or S4 about 30 to 40 ticks and you will see artifacts. Now, with voltages at default, increase all three by 30 to 40 ticks and you will not see any artifacts. The artifacts you see in the first step are not because the voltage was too high, but because you altered the factory separation of the voltages. Now, if you lower all three by the same amount, you will also see artifacts. My go to internal patterns for 101fd and 500M are combi 6 and combi 7. If anything, adjusting the separation between S3 and S4 by no more than 10 ticks might help, but I would not adjust farther than that.

While I do encourage the use of the internal patterns, don't let these be your main guide. I had artifacts on internal patterns but none (other than dirty low contrast scenes, black rain and IR) on regular content due to voltages being too low to correct red tint. No sparkles whatsoever. In the end, how real world content looks is what really matters.

Set all three to 30 ticks below the factory minimum (S1 87, S3 77, S4 97) and I bet your red tint will be gone (though your black rain will be pretty bad).
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post #2719 of 2877 Old 11-18-2014, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Kuro's are sold for various reasons, red tint is one of them. Other reasons are: new TV after five years, buying a new TV believing it is a upgrade: VT50/VT60/ZT60, F8500, a UHD TV or a OLED TV.
I believe main problem with lots (former)owners is that they are not fully aware what a Plasma TV is and what harm static stuff does. Also i do believe that most owners are not fully aware what a 9G Pioneer Plasma's place is in the TV hierachie.

I bought two kuro's. Each has one stuck pixel. Both have some burn-in issues which only can be seen in a dark room with dark content.
I've been burned so many times that I find it really hard to trust any Kuro seller. Some might play dumb and pretend they don't know what they have. If you see deal that's too good to be true, there is an underlying reason for it. This is why I follow the below steps to properly test a Kuro before purchasing it:

1. Only go to seller's house after the sun sets.
2. Ensure in advance that the seller can get the room as pitch black as possible.
3. Use Kuro Kapture to acquire service menu capture.
4. Inspect hour count from service menu capture to ensure the hours were not reset.
5. Inspect pulse meter count from service menu capture to ensure it was not reset.
6. Inspect voltage values from service menu capture to ensure that they were not tampered with.
7. Compare serial number on back panel label to the one in the service menu capture to ensure digital board is the original. You can easily hide a reset by replacing the digital board with one from a non reset panel, but each digital board has a unique serial number that cannot be changed.
8. Put up full screen solid color slides to check for stuck pixels and burn in.
9. Put up full screen black color slide to check for red tint (do this in a dark room).

Most Kuros that I have checked out pass all the requirements except for 8 and/or 9 or have a high hour count.

The first Kuro that I ever bought was a 101fd that I bought blindly before I had the knowledge that I have now. I simply showed up to the guys house, he demoed a few clips in broad daylight and I bought it on the spot. Luckily, it had only 750 hours and was not reset (I didn't find this out until many months later). However, it had a stuck magenta pixel right in the middle of the screen. The good thing is that it was intermittent and went away when I lowered voltages to reduce black level. If I increased voltages, it would come back in full glory.

Another Kuro I bought had red tint, but I didn't notice it when I purchased it because I tested it in broad daylight. I also walked away from a 600M that was demoed to me at night but outside in a driveway (after driving 3 hours to check it out). Turns out it had red tint but was barely visible due to the testing conditions. I walked away from another 101fd that passed all tests except for 9 - it had red tint that I discovered because I insisted on testing it at night (this after a 2.5 hour drive).

Though the owners are not at fault, most Kuros have/will developed some sort of defect due to their advanced age - remember, these were last manufactured in 2009 and have gone through some heavy use. It is my opinion that the Kuro ship has sailed and anyone looking to buy one expecting a pristine panel that performs just like a brand new one arrived too late to the party.

I would only buy one for the right price, if it passes the above requirements and if its less than a 2 hour drive.
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post #2720 of 2877 Old 11-18-2014, 08:19 PM
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I believe it was around .003 before I tweaked it. After reducing RSTP, my black level went down to about .002. After reducing S1, S3 and S4, my i1D3 could not register black level, meaning it was below .001.
Ah. So if I wanted to lower the blacks on my 151 I would change S1, S3, and S4? I always thought changing RSTP to 1 was enough.

003 on a 151 with 17000 hours is pretty good don't you think? Most newer TV's don't even measure that low. That's basically close to it's standard black new of 001.

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post #2721 of 2877 Old 11-18-2014, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
I've been burned so many times that I find it really hard to trust any Kuro seller. Some might play dumb and pretend they don't know what they have. If you see deal that's too good to be true, there is an underlying reason for it. This is why I follow the below steps to properly test a Kuro before purchasing it:

1. Only go to seller's house after the sun sets.
2. Ensure in advance that the seller can get the room as pitch black as possible.
3. Use Kuro Kapture to acquire service menu capture.
4. Inspect hour count from service menu capture to ensure the hours were not reset.
5. Inspect pulse meter count from service menu capture to ensure it was not reset.
6. Inspect voltage values from service menu capture to ensure that they were not tampered with.
7. Compare serial number on back panel label to the one in the service menu capture to ensure digital board is the original. You can easily hide a reset by replacing the digital board with one from a non reset panel, but each digital board has a unique serial number that cannot be changed.
8. Put up full screen solid color slides to check for stuck pixels and burn in.
9. Put up full screen black color slide to check for red tint (do this in a dark room).

Most Kuros that I have checked out pass all the requirements except for 8 and/or 9 or have a high hour count.

The first Kuro that I ever bought was a 101fd that I bought blindly before I had the knowledge that I have now. I simply showed up to the guys house, he demoed a few clips in broad daylight and I bought it on the spot. Luckily, it had only 750 hours and was not reset (I didn't find this out until many months later). However, it had a stuck magenta pixel right in the middle of the screen. The good thing is that it was intermittent and went away when I lowered voltages to reduce black level. If I increased voltages, it would come back in full glory.

Another Kuro I bought had red tint, but I didn't notice it when I purchased it because I tested it in broad daylight. I also walked away from a 600M that was demoed to me at night but outside in a driveway (after driving 3 hours to check it out). Turns out it had red tint but was barely visible due to the testing conditions. I walked away from another 101fd that passed all tests except for 9 - it had red tint that I discovered because I insisted on testing it at night (this after a 2.5 hour drive).

Though the owners are not at fault, most Kuros have/will developed some sort of defect due to their advanced age - remember, these were last manufactured in 2009 and have gone through some heavy use. It is my opinion that the Kuro ship has sailed and anyone looking to buy one expecting a pristine panel that performs just like a brand new one arrived too late to the party.

I would only buy one for the right price, if it passes the above requirements and if its less than a 2 hour drive.
Your last point is true. Anybody buying a kuro now is going to get one with high hours and probably some other problems. Makes me kind of happy my 151 only has 2400 hours of use. A January 2009 build too. I hope it last as long as it can cause I walked into bestbuy the other day and not one TV stood out to as I need to buy that. No 4K LCD's and believe it or not, the OLED didn't really wow me either. To be fair though, no dark content was playing. It was all bright demos. The only TV I liked was the F8500. I was surprised they still has some in stock.

Speaking of stock. I wonder if Pioneer has a kuros left at their warehouse? What are they going to do with them? I would love to be able to buy a few.

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post #2722 of 2877 Old 11-18-2014, 09:29 PM
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I hope it last as long as it can cause I walked into bestbuy the other day and not one TV stood out to as I need to buy that. No 4K LCD's and believe it or not, the OLED didn't really wow me either.
I couldn't agree more on that sentiment. I've looked at new sets (OLED) and I just couldn't justify the upgrade. They have their host of problems at the moment too like every display. I lucked out when I got my 500M in early 2011. The owner who I purchased from already had 2 Kuro's and was only selling the 500M because he upgraded to the 600M. I drove 8 hours with a friend each way to pick it up from PA back to DE. Not to mention this panel made it cross country in one piece after I moved back to CA last year (it was insured and I packaged it myself). So this has sentimental value to me . A bit OT I'm aware, but I just find it hard to justify parting with my Kuro (red tint/no red tint) like some of the sellers Eddie has mentioned.
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post #2723 of 2877 Old 11-18-2014, 11:24 PM
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Set all three to 30 ticks below the factory minimum (S1 87, S3 77, S4 97) and I bet your red tint will be gone (though your black rain will be pretty bad).
A quick update on trying out your suggested settings Eddie. First of all, that's the lowest MLL I've ever seen since owning my Kuro. I have to wait longer than usual for my eyes to adjust just to see my screen. I do have IR from the service menu but as soon as I run content or slides it's gone. The only "black rain" I see is when I bring up the regular user menu with blue highlight scrolling showing "misfire" at the moment. The service menu and user menu are way brighter than where my content white luminance is. In regards to red tint, since lower MLL/black is the absence of light/color, I guess for all practical purposes the tint is "removed". Once my eyes have adjusted, I see patches of higher/brighter MLL spots(where the red tint used to be due to uneven wear). The picture enclosed is exaggerated but that's the best I can do to show what I see.

One other interesting thing I noticed. The ISF modes need to "come out of black" detail wise at a higher brightness setting than the regular modes. I can make out more bars in a black clipping pattern at gamma 1 even at brightness -1 for the regular modes. With ISF modes, even at the Gamma 1 equivalent, I still needed +1 brightness. I then put back my S134D to 118, 108, 129 to see if I could make some observations. With +1 brightness on ISF, more red tint coverage (possibly higher MLL?) vs user/pure at +1 brightness. I will definitely need to look more into this with my I1D3 to make any conclusions. There must be something I'm doing wrong in ISF modes.

I also found out I could I could make my full black screen more uniform (remove those higher MLL/Red tint patches in the pic) when I lowered brightness to, for example, -10. Currently, I only watch through an HTPC with MadVR. So I can use customized RGB levels to compensate for black clipping and get a more uniform black screen than what that pic shows. Hopefully, I'll be able to get bar 17 without raising MLL. I also have dispcalGUI 3DLUTs I can use for that last bit of finetuning/low DE calibration but I think I'm already getting off topic.
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post #2724 of 2877 Old 11-19-2014, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
I've been burned so many times that I find it really hard to trust any Kuro seller. Some might play dumb and pretend they don't know what they have. If you see deal that's too good to be true, there is an underlying reason for it. This is why I follow the below steps to properly test a Kuro before purchasing it:

1. Only go to seller's house after the sun sets.
2. Ensure in advance that the seller can get the room as pitch black as possible.
3. Use Kuro Kapture to acquire service menu capture.
4. Inspect hour count from service menu capture to ensure the hours were not reset.
5. Inspect pulse meter count from service menu capture to ensure it was not reset.
6. Inspect voltage values from service menu capture to ensure that they were not tampered with.
7. Compare serial number on back panel label to the one in the service menu capture to ensure digital board is the original. You can easily hide a reset by replacing the digital board with one from a non reset panel, but each digital board has a unique serial number that cannot be changed.
8. Put up full screen solid color slides to check for stuck pixels and burn in.
9. Put up full screen black color slide to check for red tint (do this in a dark room).

Most Kuros that I have checked out pass all the requirements except for 8 and/or 9 or have a high hour count.

The first Kuro that I ever bought was a 101fd that I bought blindly before I had the knowledge that I have now. I simply showed up to the guys house, he demoed a few clips in broad daylight and I bought it on the spot. Luckily, it had only 750 hours and was not reset (I didn't find this out until many months later). However, it had a stuck magenta pixel right in the middle of the screen. The good thing is that it was intermittent and went away when I lowered voltages to reduce black level. If I increased voltages, it would come back in full glory.

Another Kuro I bought had red tint, but I didn't notice it when I purchased it because I tested it in broad daylight. I also walked away from a 600M that was demoed to me at night but outside in a driveway (after driving 3 hours to check it out). Turns out it had red tint but was barely visible due to the testing conditions. I walked away from another 101fd that passed all tests except for 9 - it had red tint that I discovered because I insisted on testing it at night (this after a 2.5 hour drive).

Though the owners are not at fault, most Kuros have/will developed some sort of defect due to their advanced age - remember, these were last manufactured in 2009 and have gone through some heavy use. It is my opinion that the Kuro ship has sailed and anyone looking to buy one expecting a pristine panel that performs just like a brand new one arrived too late to the party.

I would only buy one for the right price, if it passes the above requirements and if its less than a 2 hour drive.
I checked them out in a completely dark room. The first guy, KRP-500M 1,000 euro, lied about hours, he pretended that he watched TV once a week. It turned out the TV had 6800 hours. He knew about burn-in i think. So he could not be trusted. The second one sold me a bedroom LX5090 500 euro, it had some minor burn in. I haven't check the hours.

It makes sence that a lot of folks lie..

On a full white field it is hard to spot the stuck red pixel for me at 1 meter so i do not have a problem with that since i do not use the TVs as a computerscreen. Both TVs have some dark round spots on the upper left and right side of the TV which only can bee seen in in the dark with dark content, must be some sort of logo burn in. I expect that this burn in can be found on most kuro's. I can live with that..

I might buy a third one next year. I watch lot of blu-ray movies. The kuro's have a beautiful movie picture in the dark. That is why i prefer them over anything that is out there. OLEDs might be better but i ain't gonna be a early adopter.
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post #2725 of 2877 Old 11-19-2014, 12:08 PM
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Ah. So if I wanted to lower the blacks on my 151 I would change S1, S3, and S4? I always thought changing RSTP to 1 was enough.

003 on a 151 with 17000 hours is pretty good don't you think? Most newer TV's don't even measure that low. That's basically close to it's standard black new of 001.
Reducing RSTP to 1 does indeed lower black level. But if you want an additional reduction, try reducing S1, S3 and S4 by no more than 15 ticks. You could adjust these by as much as 30 ticks, which is when you hit the minimum values specified in the service manual, but I have found 15 ticks to be the sweet spot on the 60 inch panels, since they are very sensitive to voltage adjustments.

My i1D3 pro, which cannot measure anything under .001 was unable to get a reading on both my 141fd and 151fd.
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post #2726 of 2877 Old 11-19-2014, 12:52 PM
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Your last point is true. Anybody buying a kuro now is going to get one with high hours and probably some other problems. Makes me kind of happy my 151 only has 2400 hours of use. A January 2009 build too. I hope it last as long as it can cause I walked into bestbuy the other day and not one TV stood out to as I need to buy that. No 4K LCD's and believe it or not, the OLED didn't really wow me either. To be fair though, no dark content was playing. It was all bright demos. The only TV I liked was the F8500. I was surprised they still has some in stock.

Speaking of stock. I wonder if Pioneer has a kuros left at their warehouse? What are they going to do with them? I would love to be able to buy a few.
Wow. What's the black level of your 151? I've heard they can be tweaked to .0001. I would keep that TV until its dying day.

Yeah, I was browsing the Best Buy Black Friday ad and the entire TV section was filled with LED TVs... so depressing.
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post #2727 of 2877 Old 11-19-2014, 01:01 PM
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A quick update on trying out your suggested settings Eddie. First of all, that's the lowest MLL I've ever seen since owning my Kuro. I have to wait longer than usual for my eyes to adjust just to see my screen. I do have IR from the service menu but as soon as I run content or slides it's gone. The only "black rain" I see is when I bring up the regular user menu with blue highlight scrolling showing "misfire" at the moment. The service menu and user menu are way brighter than where my content white luminance is. In regards to red tint, since lower MLL/black is the absence of light/color, I guess for all practical purposes the tint is "removed". Once my eyes have adjusted, I see patches of higher/brighter MLL spots(where the red tint used to be due to uneven wear). The picture enclosed is exaggerated but that's the best I can do to show what I see.

One other interesting thing I noticed. The ISF modes need to "come out of black" detail wise at a higher brightness setting than the regular modes. I can make out more bars in a black clipping pattern at gamma 1 even at brightness -1 for the regular modes. With ISF modes, even at the Gamma 1 equivalent, I still needed +1 brightness. I then put back my S134D to 118, 108, 129 to see if I could make some observations. With +1 brightness on ISF, more red tint coverage (possibly higher MLL?) vs user/pure at +1 brightness. I will definitely need to look more into this with my I1D3 to make any conclusions. There must be something I'm doing wrong in ISF modes.

I also found out I could I could make my full black screen more uniform (remove those higher MLL/Red tint patches in the pic) when I lowered brightness to, for example, -10. Currently, I only watch through an HTPC with MadVR. So I can use customized RGB levels to compensate for black clipping and get a more uniform black screen than what that pic shows. Hopefully, I'll be able to get bar 17 without raising MLL. I also have dispcalGUI 3DLUTs I can use for that last bit of finetuning/low DE calibration but I think I'm already getting off topic.
I also saw the service menu burn in/IR on my 101fd, which is why I now use commands and refuse to display the service menu on my 141fd. A type of torch mode seems to be activated when the service menu overlay is displayed, which explains the burn in/IR.

My method for testing black rain is to watch a letter box movie for about 5 minutes, then press the menu button on the remote. The menu will fizzle in on the black bar area, while it will pop up instantly on the area displaying content.

After tweaking, you do need to increase brightness to prevent black clipping. I found +1 to be the sweet spot on mine.

I wouldn't worry too much how an all black screen looks like because you won't be staring at an all black screen all day anyways.
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post #2728 of 2877 Old 11-19-2014, 01:21 PM
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I checked them out in a completely dark room. The first guy, KRP-500M 1,000 euro, lied about hours, he pretended that he watched TV once a week. It turned out the TV had 6800 hours. He knew about burn-in i think. So he could not be trusted. The second one sold me a bedroom LX5090 500 euro, it had some minor burn in. I haven't check the hours.

It makes sence that a lot of folks lie..

On a full white field it is hard to spot the stuck red pixel for me at 1 meter so i do not have a problem with that since i do not use the TVs as a computerscreen. Both TVs have some dark round spots on the upper left and right side of the TV which only can bee seen in in the dark with dark content, must be some sort of logo burn in. I expect that this burn in can be found on most kuro's. I can live with that..

I might buy a third one next year. I watch lot of blu-ray movies. The kuro's have a beautiful movie picture in the dark. That is why i prefer them over anything that is out there. OLEDs might be better but i ain't gonna be a early adopter.
I watched Maleficent the other night on my 141fd and the picture it produced was jaw dropping. I still prefer the Kuro over any other TV out there as well, I am just extremely hesitant with regards to purchasing one at this point in time.

6800 hours is not bad at all IMO. To me, anything past the 12,000 hour mark is a no no. My 141fd has minor burn in, which I spotted in the process of purchasing it, but its only noticeable on very bright content (solid colored fields). The burn in looks like an AT&T logo and its located on the bottom left corner. I can live with it because its only visible on bright content anyways.

I would still like to own a 500M or a 101fd, but the likelihood of finding one with low hours and no faults decreases on each passing day.
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post #2729 of 2877 Old 11-19-2014, 01:38 PM
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saprano i was told that they have 151 and 6020 and no 141 left in the 60 inch model.this came from the lady that Took care of my warranty claim seeing that they let me upgrade from the 6020 to the 151 of course I had to pay extra for that. I figured I'd go broke see if they would let me upgrade to a 141 she said they were no longer in stock. This is at their warehouse in Long Beach I'm sure they still have some

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post #2730 of 2877 Old 11-20-2014, 05:52 AM
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Wow. What's the black level of your 151? I've heard they can be tweaked to .0001. I would keep that TV until its dying day.

Yeah, I was browsing the Best Buy Black Friday ad and the entire TV section was filled with LED TVs... so depressing.
I don't know the black level. I don't have a meter to check. But I'm assuming it's .001 since it's very dark. A full black screen is very faint. You know a displays black level is good when a movie transitions to a low contrast scene and the room gets dark too. Like it when that happens.

Yeah D-Nice said some kuros can be tweaked that low. I guess it's the ones manufactured in 2009 at that one factory before Pioneer shut everything down.

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saprano i was told that they have 151 and 6020 and no 141 left in the 60 inch model.this came from the lady that Took care of my warranty claim seeing that they let me upgrade from the 6020 to the 151 of course I had to pay extra for that. I figured I'd go broke see if they would let me upgrade to a 141 she said they were no longer in stock. This is at their warehouse in Long Beach I'm sure they still have some
Amazing. They should try to sell them since I'm sure most owners warranties are expired by now. I hope they're not going to just throw them away. I'll buy both the 151 and 6020.

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