LG Plasma Panel tweaks for better blacks. - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1397 Old 12-29-2011, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

I knew it was going to knock your socks off!

Now that I have a multimeter, I'm going to adjust voltages and do the tv again one more time.

Now that I've heard LG is making an 84" Ultra resolution 3D tv, and a 55" OLED, I may just need to upgrade again next year.

Hi bhazard

Funny thing is I started the this thread to hopefully get LGs attention after the miserable results at the panel shootout and knew something was amiss.

Just to quote yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

The PZ950 just got slaughtered in this shootout of tvs with highly regarded calibrators (Kevin Miller calibrated my PX950, knows his stuff, ex CNET reviewer)
The Samsung comes out on top overall.

Unless you do the "pots" tweak, this tv just cant compare to the others listed, except for price.

The tweaking I'm happy to say has by far exceeded my expectations, so get with it LG, we're expecting #1 for next year.

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post #542 of 1397 Old 12-29-2011, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Another point as to why LG should seriously consider this tweak is their other thorn in the side, image retention. Over the last few days I have to admit not seeing one bit of IR, prior to the tweak the Apple TV menu for example was always present after closing.
So basically by tweaking a bit we've eliminated LGs two most commonly discussed faults, weak blacks and image retention, no seriously LG have got to get with the program seeing they got a bundle tied up in R&D.
Without checking (I'm not a gamer) it probably also improves input lag.

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post #543 of 1397 Old 12-29-2011, 08:50 AM
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Hey rob,

just to clarify, all you did so far was adjusting Set_Up clockwise? So I guess I'll start with that as well. Probably measuring the voltages on the Vx points as well, and maybe adjusting them to panel sticker values.

boba
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post #544 of 1397 Old 12-29-2011, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boba23 View Post

Hey rob,

just to clarify, all you did so far was adjusting Set_Up clockwise? So I guess I'll start with that as well. Probably measuring the voltages on the Vx points as well, and maybe adjusting them to panel sticker values.

boba

Yes just the Set_up with amazing results.

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post #545 of 1397 Old 12-29-2011, 09:33 AM
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Another thing, did you mark the original positions somehow? If so, how?

thx

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post #546 of 1397 Old 12-29-2011, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boba23 View Post

Another thing, did you mark the original positions somehow? If so, how?

thx

boba


I previously encouraged everyone to print off the appropriate sheets from the training manuals and mark those. The pots themselves are hard to mark.

Below is the sheet from my PG25, I did the same on the sheet for the PX950, remember to print off the power supply board and the Y-sustain board.

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post #547 of 1397 Old 12-29-2011, 01:03 PM
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LG's PV400 60" is going for 999 bucks, if these blacks could be reproduced on this screen that would make for a great bang for the buck.
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post #548 of 1397 Old 12-29-2011, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by wiremite View Post

LG's PV400 60" is going for 999 bucks, if these blacks could be reproduced on this screen that would make for a great bang for the buck.

You can get one from Dell for 799 until the 31st. With the gift card promo, you could pick one up for 699 last week.
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post #549 of 1397 Old 12-29-2011, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Canadian vs US pricing but yes you can tweak the 400 series or any LG plasma for that matter.

But like they tagged my thread started at http://www.avforums.com/forums/lg-fo...er-blacks.html

WARNING:

AVForums, and LG, in no way endorse, or approve this kind of adjustment, which will of course nullify any and all warranty on your tv.

And also, AVForums, and LG in no way guarantee a fix/improvement, or personal safety, when removing the rear of the television, and indeed try to manipulate the internals when on, and will not, and cannot be held responsible, if and when things go wrong.


The same applies here at avsforum.com

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post #550 of 1397 Old 12-29-2011, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avfanatic1 View Post

I've been following this thread for a few weeks and honestly quite impressed at the progress everyone has made! About two weeks ago (unknown to my parents at the time ) I removed the back of the 60PX950 and adjusted set-up just about fully clockwise. WOW. It certainly did make quite a difference. I also adjusted va and vy (don't remember which way) but in any case, it didn't make much of a difference. I also moved set-down a bit, and that made a small but noticeable difference.

Fast forward a week- as people know, these sets are supposed to follow certain voltage requirements as indicated on the set. I took out the multimeter and adjusted everything (VS, VA, VSX, -VY, VZB adjustments) in accordance to the label within .1 volts (for some I was able to get spot on). Some were off by a couple volts to begin with, but I forget if that was because I had made random adjustments to them earlier). After vacation I am going to borrow an oscilloscope from school and see how accurately i can adjust set-up and set-down according to the manual.

Questions:
  • For people making adjustments (other than set-up) fully clockwise/counter clockwise, how difference is the resulting voltage than the voltage indicated on the panel sticker?
  • Has anyone tried adjusting set-up and down with an oscilloscope and matched it with the waveform as indicated in the manual? If so, is there a difference in position of the knob than if you had simply turned set-up as far clockwise until misfires appeared? (if that question made any sense)
  • Are your voltages different to begin with than what is indicated on the sticker?
  • For those who have made tweaks and seem to have improved black levels without misfires, how do the voltages compare to the sticker? If they are close to spot on, this likely means that these sets had potential to have stable and dark blacks but LG didn't spend enough time ensuring the sets were properly adjusted.


For those interested in this tweak, I definitely recommend performing it. First adjust VS, VA, VSX, -VY, and VZB according to the label on the tv, adjust set-up clockwise as high as possible without getting misfires, and adjust set-down counterclockwise until misfires occur. Also, make sure the TV is warmed up for about 15 minutes, and remember to go back at the end and test all the voltages, because sometimes adjusting one will offset another. However, be aware we are dealing with potentially lethal voltages, so be VERY careful not to touch anything else besides the contacts exactly as shown in the "Quick Reference Alignment Hand Book." Also if possible, use an anti-static or plastic screwdriver to make adjustments.

Hi avfanatic1

All great questions, good feedback and advice.

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post #551 of 1397 Old 12-29-2011, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derod68 View Post


Followed these instructions exactly...

"The potis inside the TV are labeled with their names.

1. Start a Blu-ray-Disc

2. Turn "Va" full throttle clockwise

3. Turn Vy full throttle counterclockwise

After that turn "Set_Up" clockwise untill you get noise in very bright movie scenes

(I was able to turn Set_Up full throttle with no issues)

Turn a microamount counterclockwise untill the noise disappears.

Finally turn "Set_Dn" clockwise untill you get pixelmissfires. Turn a microamount counterclockwise untill you dont' get new pixelmissfires.

Congratulations to your new KURO (8G or 9G) MLL."

Alright, this is basically what I did tonight to my 50PZ950, just wouldn't wanna wait any more. Guess my set has max 100 hours now.
What can I say .... the results are fantastic. Black is as black as black can get I'd say. Black bars in 16:9 movies are now ... well black, not dark gray anymore.
I turned Set_up full clockwise, adjusted Va full clockwise, Vy full counterclockwise ... went ahead and also turned Set_dn clockwise well, at least a quarter, didn't see any pixel missfires ... but I stopped there, maybe I could have turned Set_dn even further, but the result was so good already.
Thanks everyone for this thread :-)
PS: also no missfires when powering on the TV, though I didn't have it off for more than 30 minutes, we'll see what happens tomorrow morning.

boba
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post #552 of 1397 Old 12-29-2011, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boba23 View Post

Alright, this is basically what I did tonight to my 50PZ950, just wouldn't wanna wait any more. Guess my set has max 100 hours now.
What can I say .... the results are fantastic. Black is as black as black can get I'd say. Black bars in 16:9 movies are now ... well black, not dark gray anymore.
I turned Set_up full clockwise, adjusted Va full clockwise, Vy full counterclockwise ... went ahead and also turned Set_dn clockwise well, at least a quarter, didn't see any pixel missfires ... but I stopped there, maybe I could have turned Set_dn even further, but the result was so good already.
Thanks everyone for this thread :-)
PS: also no missfires when powering on the TV, though I didn't have it off for more than 30 minutes, we'll see what happens tomorrow morning.

boba

Sounds good boba,

I may try adjusting the Vy and Va this weekend, although I've had no misfires on turn-on today.
Although, and this might just be my imagination, I thought the blacks looked a little less black tonight, still very black though more like my brothers ST30.

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post #553 of 1397 Old 12-29-2011, 08:07 PM
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ok, I spreaded the word and I got two people to try.

One guy with PK550 had a great success. set_up to max clockwise, vy to max counter clockwise. He only gets misfires after a cold start for 5 minutes. After that, all's well.

The other guy was not so lucky. He has PG20 to which I immediately thought "Oh, Rob80b's panel!" but no, it wasn't PG20/25 like he has, but actually a G1 panel which strangely also shares the same name.

http://136.166.4.200/contents/Displa...T-HANDBOOK.pdf

I asked him to locate VA and VS, but he couldn't. He could only find set_up,set_dn,VSC,VZB, and VY.

According to him, he turned set_up fully clockwise, but strangely no effect. Fully counter-clockwise, still no effect.

Set_DN : Turning clockwise, he suddely gets a white splash light. I knew he pushed it too far. Turning counter clockwise, messy misfires, yet still no obvious changes to the black.

VY : Just varies the amount of misfires shown, but not really doing anything to change black.

I'm curious as to how the G1 behaves, but without actually owning one, I'm helpless. (I only did it on my PT350)
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post #554 of 1397 Old 12-29-2011, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by th3third View Post

I have the 60PZ950, which isn't listed, nor is the 60PK950. If I wanted to double check voltages with a meter, where can I find the proper specs (or a safe range) for my model.

For the 60PZ950 check under 60PZ850. They seem to use the same "60R3" panel. In fact, if you look in the Panel Alignment document, it says 60PZ950 together with 60PZ850, 60PZ750 and 60PZ550.

Btw, the situation is similar for the 60PK950. It uses the same "60R1" panel as the 60PK750, according to the documents.
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post #555 of 1397 Old 12-30-2011, 04:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

ok, I spreaded the word and I got two people to try.

One guy with PK550 had a great success. set_up to max clockwise, vy to max counter clockwise. He only gets misfires after a cold start for 5 minutes. After that, all's well.

The other guy was not so lucky. He has PG20 to which I immediately thought "Oh, Rob80b's panel!" but no, it wasn't PG20/25 like he has, but actually a G1 panel which strangely also shares the same name.

http://136.166.4.200/contents/Displa...T-HANDBOOK.pdf

I asked him to locate VA and VS, but he couldn't. He could only find set_up,set_dn,VSC,VZB, and VY.

According to him, he turned set_up fully clockwise, but strangely no effect. Fully counter-clockwise, still no effect.

Set_DN : Turning clockwise, he suddely gets a white splash light. I knew he pushed it too far. Turning counter clockwise, messy misfires, yet still no obvious changes to the black.

VY : Just varies the amount of misfires shown, but not really doing anything to change black.

I'm curious as to how the G1 behaves, but without actually owning one, I'm helpless. (I only did it on my PT350)

Hi KOF

As I noted while doing my PG25 I got "slightly" better blacks with the Set_up, maybe a few steps on the gray scale, with Set_dn all hell broke loose.

Maybe he didn't realize Vs and Va are on the power supply, a different board, but both these pots can shut down the set if turned too much.

It was because of my experience with my PG25 I was more cautious with the PX950 and only adjusted the Set_up, also because the PX was all ready much better than the PG I was not prepared for the vast improvements over it's little brother.

Interestingly enough I'm not getting problems with start-up anymore.

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post #556 of 1397 Old 12-30-2011, 04:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

harvo01,
What is your input source when achieving this level? 24fps or 60?

I can not get below .016 of 24fps, though .007 and even lower to the point of being unmeasurable with my equipment is possible on 60Hz at the expense of a few misfires. Isn't it amazing to see the black level just drop before your eyes to the point where it looks as dark as the frame ;-)

Checked black level differences between 24fps and 60 last night and could not perceive any difference?

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post #557 of 1397 Old 12-30-2011, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Sounds good boba,

I may try adjusting the Vy and Va this weekend, although I've had no misfires on turn-on today.
Although, and this might just be my imagination, I thought the blacks looked a little less black tonight, still very black though more like my brothers ST30.

So, seems everything is still good. Asked my GF to check for pixel missfires when turning on the set in the morning. She didn't notice anything, though I am not sure that she's as sensitive to the perfect picture as I am ;-)
Anyway one more thing I noticed yday after tweaking. The blacks while watching cinemascope with black bars are really incredibly dark ... if you watch closely you'll notice that the black in the actual video content is even darker than the cinemascope black bars .... how's that? Is that normal, because I can't imagine this is a black level thing. If the set can produce such incredible blacks for the real video content, why do the bars look just a tiny bit lighter? Is this a general thing about those cinemascope bars?

boba
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post #558 of 1397 Old 12-30-2011, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boba23 View Post

Anyway one more thing I noticed yday after tweaking. The blacks while watching cinemascope with black bars are really incredibly dark ... if you watch closely you'll notice that the black in the actual video content is even darker than the cinemascope black bars .... how's that? Is that normal, because I can't imagine this is a black level thing. If the set can produce such incredible blacks for the real video content, why do the bars look just a tiny bit lighter? Is this a general thing about those cinemascope bars?

boba

Funny you should mention that, I noticed the same thing last night and put the film on pause to verify, the adjacent black to the bars was definitely a tad blacker, totally the opposite before tweaking, remember also that all not films are equal in black levels.
But as you say the black bars are incredibly dark (black) now, for more than 90% of viewing they are not visible in a dark room.

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post #559 of 1397 Old 12-30-2011, 08:00 AM
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This is why I can't wait for large OLED screens to become afffordable. The screen on my Galaxy Nexus is so black you cant tell where the screen ends in the dark. Its a really cool thing to see.
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post #560 of 1397 Old 12-30-2011, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Interestingly enough I'm not getting problems with start-up anymore.

Just to double check, overnight dropped the thermostat and opened a window a bit to cool the room (probably mid-60s F, the room that is) gotta love these Canadian winters, sure enough pixel misfires with turn-on this morning.
I will have to take a reading of the ambient temperature to see at what point they occur.

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post #561 of 1397 Old 12-30-2011, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

This is why I can't wait for large OLED screens to become afffordable. The screen on my Galaxy Nexus is so black you cant tell where the screen ends in the dark. Its a really cool thing to see.

But will they achieve that organic image quality we get with plasma?

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post #562 of 1397 Old 12-30-2011, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

The screen on my Galaxy Nexus is so black you cant tell where the screen ends in the dark.

But it's only 4.3"

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post #563 of 1397 Old 12-30-2011, 10:22 AM
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Haha, not all OLEDs are created equal. My brother just got Samsung Galaxy S II HD LTE and with protection filter on, I thought even my modded PT350 had better black. My brother was throughly disappointed too, as he was originally going to get regular S II which has far better black than this one does.
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post #564 of 1397 Old 12-30-2011, 10:30 AM
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But will they achieve that organic image quality we get with plasma?

They are currently the only display technology available with the least compromises, that's for sure.

Of course, unlike the others, I do not really go ORGASMIC (bad pun) over them yet because I think even plasmas stink on motion blur compared to my Sony FW900 and Wega, and OLEDs stink even more because they are sample and hold based. If the plasmas can get over 200cd luminance with minimal APL, I have no need for OLEDs as I mostly game on my displays.
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post #565 of 1397 Old 12-30-2011, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Just to double check, overnight dropped the thermostat and opened a window a bit to cool the room (probably mid-60s F, the room that is) gotta love these Canadian winters, sure enough pixel misfires with turn-on this morning.
I will have to take a reading of the ambient temperature to see at what point they occur.

Yeah, living in Toronto sucks when it comes to black tweaks lol. I thought I was going well with Panasonic GT30 black but then it snowed and misfires ruined my picture, so I had to back off and only maxed set_up and dancing pixels were still there. The next day, things have warmed up and I was able to push a bit more.
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post #566 of 1397 Old 12-30-2011, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Checked black level differences between 24fps and 60 last night and could not perceive any difference?

my 50pk550 doesn't exhibit perceivable black level changes for 24p and 60p. From looking at the screen in the dark its essentially the same. I'll bring out my cheapo spyder 2 this weekend to try and quantify the black level difference if there's any. The spyder 2 probably wouldn't be able to read below 0.1 cd/m2, but if the black level doubles then the meter should be able to detect that.
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post #567 of 1397 Old 12-30-2011, 01:23 PM
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I use a Spyder2 for calibrating my monitor. Is is possible to calibrate a plasma TV with it? I have a Zenith 60pv220 (same as the pv450).
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post #568 of 1397 Old 12-30-2011, 02:53 PM
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I use a Spyder2 for calibrating my monitor. Is is possible to calibrate a plasma TV with it? I have a Zenith 60pv220 (same as the pv450).

I've calibrated my 50pk550 and 42pq30 plasmas with the spyder 2. Its not the greatest, but definitely better than calibrating by my eyes. I use the HCFR software and AVS HD 709 DVD that's available for download on avsforum. The two threads below helped alot:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=737550
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1029594
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=983943

I don't get the wow factor, but I have not switched between picture modes since I calibrated the Expert 1 settings on my plasmas. There is alot of time to be spent once u start diving into calibrating tvs, especially these LG plasmas with the strenous 20pt calibration. I think I tried like 10 different times to get to where I like the picture and comfortable to not change any more settings for the last 6 months. Calibrating tv is much harder than the computer monitor, because adjustments are made manually in the TV's picture settings at each IRE. There's also alot of calibration help in the LG pk550 owners' forum.
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post #569 of 1397 Old 12-30-2011, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Voz View Post

For the 60PZ950 check under 60PZ850. They seem to use the same "60R3" panel. In fact, if you look in the Panel Alignment document, it says 60PZ950 together with 60PZ850, 60PZ750 and 60PZ550.

Btw, the situation is similar for the 60PK950. It uses the same "60R1" panel as the 60PK750, according to the documents.

Thanks. I didn't DL and investigate the PZ850. I figured they were too different since the 850 has that Pentouch gizmo.
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post #570 of 1397 Old 12-31-2011, 04:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Well folks as we head into the New Year, I’d like to thanks everyone for contributing to this thread, we now have to keep an eye on the stability of the tweaks and to see if the we follow suite with Panasonics raising blacks.

Started this thread over a month and half ago but being a bit skeptical that the tweaks would be much an improvement over my stock PX950 (seeing it produced only minor improvements on my PG25, but an improvement all the same) it was only recently that I did the adjustments on my PX950 and was totally shocked with the improvement in black levels.
With the pot adjustments I believe it would be safe to assume that a tweaked current LG matches or may indeed exceed the other current flagship plasmas.

Trying to make a mental note of the current black level on my PX950, running an all black image in a darkened room my all black screen is just a perceptible notch above 0 black or where the panel goes to black after a few seconds when no image is displayed, the change is minimal.

I’d like to thank turrican and a few others for introducing us to the possibilities and xrox’s (research) treads and posts which have a wealth of information toward understanding plasma technology.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=19515158
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Thread created as a place to post, learn, and discuss information regarding research into true ZERO black level pasma display technology. Also feel free to discuss the virtues (or not) of such technology.

I will update four sections later today

1 - Background Info
2 - Patents
3 - Journals & White Papers
4 - Media

Related Information (pre-reading )

KURO Technology Explained
Panasonic NeoPDP Explained (when I have time...)
Rising Blacks Explained
Floating Blacks Explained
CEL explained (when I have time...)

All the best in 2012.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario

 

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