LG Plasma Panel tweaks for better blacks. - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 1397 Old 01-22-2012, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ubersonic View Post

I also have the 50PK550,Key your tweak seems to be the easiest one of all the others listed.I swapped emails with Chad B and asked him what he thought about this thread and the tweak's people are trying,he said if he owned a pk550 he would do the tweak's and he thought there was little harm trying them.

That's good news coming from Chad B!

I think it boils down to if you will be happy with 70% of what your sets lowest black level could be or do you want to push it all the way to it's maximum potential (the 70% is just a guess). My set is fully calibrated and I was very satisfied with the picture except for the black level. I was considering getting a new plasma later this year. Now, due to the tweek, I can wait for other technologies to mature.
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post #902 of 1397 Old 01-22-2012, 05:15 PM
 
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Guys be very careful when tweaking the pots with a metal screw driver please use a TV Alignment Tool Kit or you can make the shape with a piece of wood or plastic to prevent damages or injury,metal screw driver can slip if you don't have a good steady hands.
like this one
LL
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post #903 of 1397 Old 01-22-2012, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Its one of the screws for wall mounting, don't worry about it if you are not wall mounting, even then most mounts come with more screws.

It's not one of the four main 1/2" thick screws- these are only about 3/16" thick. Could it be from inside or from something else? All the screw holes to hold the back of the tv on are filled as far as I can see, so unless there is something similar to that on the inside of the tv or a more hidden location on the outside... I just hate having "extra" screws after a project
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post #904 of 1397 Old 01-22-2012, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by avfanatic1 View Post


It's not one of the four main 1/2" thick screws- these are only about 3/16" thick. Could it be from inside or from something else? All the screw holes to hold the back of the tv on are filled as far as I can see, so unless there is something similar to that on the inside of the tv or a more hidden location on the outside... I just hate having "extra" screws after a project

Maybe from the input board area. There are 2 longer screws there hidden amongst the component inputs.
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post #905 of 1397 Old 01-22-2012, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avfanatic1 View Post

or to something completely different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Its one of the screws for wall mounting, don't worry about it if you are not wall mounting, even then most mounts come with more screws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avfanatic1 View Post

It's not one of the four main 1/2" thick screws- these are only about 3/16" thick. Could it be from inside or from something else? All the screw holes to hold the back of the tv on are filled as far as I can see, so unless there is something similar to that on the inside of the tv or a more hidden location on the outside... I just hate having "extra" screws after a project

Now you can worry.

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post #906 of 1397 Old 01-22-2012, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derod68 View Post

What's the easiest and cheapest way to measure blacks?

Also, what would great blacks measurements be? ...and I don't mean the best blacks (like Kuro), but more like "pleasingly acceptable" blacks, if that makes any sense.

Conversely, what measurement would be considered to be bad blacks be?

Layman's please

Here's what I use and it works great.

This probe
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00..._ya_os_product

And this free HCFR software running on a windows PC
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=983943

The unit of luminance typically used is the Footlambert (ftL).
Great blacks would be anything under 0.010 ftL I would say. Lower is always better.
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post #907 of 1397 Old 01-22-2012, 09:02 PM
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Now that blacks are nice and deep, considering getting Best Buy's Geek Squad to send one of their ISF Techs that will calibrate for 200. Not too shabby I think. Has anyone done thru them?

Or, can get equip and do on my own. Hmmmm.

Thanks for your replies guys!!
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post #908 of 1397 Old 01-22-2012, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derod68 View Post

Now that blacks are nice and deep, considering getting Best Buy's Geek Squad to send one of their ISF Techs that will calibrate for 200. Not too shabby I think. Has anyone done thru them?

Or, can get equip and do on my own. Hmmmm.

Thanks for your replies guys!!

I've read nothing but horrible things about Best Buy's Geek Squad calibration. Better off going the DIY route or waiting for a real calibrator like Chad B to do a tour near your area.

PSN ID/XBOX Live! Gamertag: BiffCo
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post #909 of 1397 Old 01-22-2012, 11:15 PM
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Has anyone thought of using scotch tape or that sticky play dough stuff they recommend for hanging posters in dorm rooms to keep track of screws and their locations?
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post #910 of 1397 Old 01-22-2012, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Brad View Post


I've read nothing but horrible things about Best Buy's Geek Squad calibration. Better off going the DIY route or waiting for a real calibrator like Chad B to do a tour near your area.

I hear you! I've read that too. I'm gonna look into rpauls method since does seem cheaper and I can do over and over til I'm satisfied. It just seems rather complicated

Thanks!
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post #911 of 1397 Old 01-23-2012, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derod68 View Post

I hear you! I've read that too. I'm gonna look into rpauls method since does seem cheaper and I can do over and over til I'm satisfied. It just seems rather complicated

Thanks!

It is pretty complicated, and is only worth learning if you enjoy this sort of thing as a hobby. The advantage is that you can recalibrate it anytime you want as you mentioned, and you can help your friends and family.

Here is an excellent DIY description of the process. Give it a read and see if it appeals to you.

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457
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post #912 of 1397 Old 01-23-2012, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derod68 View Post

What's the easiest and cheapest way to measure blacks?

Layman's please

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Hi derod

No sarcasm intended, but your owns eyes, .

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

It is pretty complicated, and is only worth learning if you enjoy this sort of thing as a hobby.

Calibration is an involved process, it takes time and even pros can take a number of hours getting it right, I know I spent 15 years setting up digital imaging stations for professional photographers and desktop publishing houses. Prior to that 15 years as a professional photographer and photo lab technician with periods of film and video production.
The process has become much easier since I stepped out of the ring and calibration tools and software are now relatively affordable for anyone who would like to step in, but as rpauls has mentioned it can still be complicated and if you follow the reviewers of numerous displays they quite often cannot get it perfect.
All the same it can be fun and educational but also frustrating at times but give it a try.

But when it comes to black levels I still feel your own eyes will tell you what's good and whats not, without getting too caught up in the numbers game.

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post #913 of 1397 Old 01-24-2012, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derod68 View Post

Now that blacks are nice and deep, considering getting Best Buy's Geek Squad to send one of their ISF Techs that will calibrate for 200. Not too shabby I think. Has anyone done thru them?

Or, can get equip and do on my own. Hmmmm.

Thanks for your replies guys!!

I had BB do a calibration on my fathers insignia lcd.the guy they sent spent about 30min with the tv and left.he did such a bad job that I reset everything to default and set up everything by eyeballing it and it turned out much better.If you can contact ChadB and have him do it you will be much happier.
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post #914 of 1397 Old 01-24-2012, 08:11 AM
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So last week I burned part of the ysustain board on my 50pk550 and I was able to get a decent picture for a week. Now it seems like if the tv is on for a few hours the green pixels start spreading throughout the picture. A quick turn off and turn back on clears it up but comes back when the tv gets hot I guess. Ordered another ysustain board on ebay for $35, hopefully I'll get more set_up headroom. With the new ysus board i hope I can to bring back the voltages to panel spec, instead of the tweaked voltage to get a stable picture. Vy and Vsc measurements were all over the place with the old board and I couldn't find a way to measure it with my multimeter. The ysustain board was probably already faulty, because sometimes I get weird pixel misfires when I play around with the picture settings even before the pots tweak. Will update once I put the new ysus board in this weekend.
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post #915 of 1397 Old 01-24-2012, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post

Guys be very careful when tweaking the pots with a metal screw driver please use a TV Alignment Tool Kit or you can make the shape with a piece of wood or plastic to prevent damages or injury,metal screw driver can slip if you don't have a good steady hands.
like this one

I don't see a phillips head one. I looked on ebay and it doesn't seem they have a plastic phillips head alignment tool. Did you use the tool yet to do the pots tweak? I wonder if the flat head would still work for the pots tweak.
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post #916 of 1397 Old 01-24-2012, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caychanh30 View Post

I don't see a phillips head one. I looked on ebay and it doesn't seem they have a plastic phillips head alignment tool. Did you use the tool yet to do the pots tweak? I wonder if the flat head would still work for the pots tweak.

All the pots can be adjusted with a small flat head.

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post #917 of 1397 Old 01-24-2012, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's an earlier post I came across by Turrican4d, before the cat got let out of the bag.

08-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

(German PK350 is the same as the US PK550)

Poti Custom Wednesdaymorning
On/Off 0,025 cd/m2 (Contrast 6741:1)
ANSI...0,039 cd/m2 (Contrast 2318:1)

Variation A (some tuning at poti "SET_UP")
On/Off 0,007 cd/m2 (Contrast 24076:1)
ANSI....0,028 cd/m2 (Contrast 3229:1)

Variation B (some tuning at poti "SET_ON")
On/Off N/A cd/m2 .(Contrast N/A:1)
ANSI 0,012 cd/m2 (Contrast 7983:1)

Measurement with a Spyder3 set at 10000ms readingtime and HCFR-Software set to measure black.


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post #918 of 1397 Old 01-24-2012, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post


Here's what I use and it works great.

This probe
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00..._ya_os_product

And this free HCFR software running on a windows PC
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=983943

The unit of luminance typically used is the Footlambert (ftL).
Great blacks would be anything under 0.010 ftL I would say. Lower is always better.

Maybe will be my Valentine's present since just recently purchased voltage meter and Disney WOW Disc. Wish me luck!

Thanks Rpauls!
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post #919 of 1397 Old 01-25-2012, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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"10 times Sub Field firing occurs using wall charge and polarity differences between Y-SUS and Z-SUS signals."
LG service manual

What I would like to know, and maybe xrox can help me out here.
If the set is cold (“and I mean cold because of an open window in the middle of the winter, not just from being turned off for a few hours”) there is an initial or maybe there is no all cell initialization as the screen in a dark room emits absolutely no light but the video processing is active, any object displayed is portrayed on a pitch black screen, unfortunately those objects have pixel noise which covers most of the screen, easily seen if I’m viewing a regular full screen image. Then after 30 seconds to a minute (which I’ll call stage 2) the screen pops to it’s regular MLL (which is still relatively dark) just not pitch black, at which point all pixel noise/misfires are then erased.

Now when the room has a reasonable ambient temperature the set (regardless of time off) will just start at the stage 2, no misfires and the regular viewing MLL.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=19515161
"[Note - the Reset/Initialization step also serves the purpose of setting all pixels into a uniform low level wall charge state so that subsequent addressing of pixels properly occurs. Without a reset step it is very difficult to control the pixels on and off states. This is where the terms "reset" or "Initialize" or "Setup" come from. The pixels are set in a proper state heading into the addressing period. However, this is confusing so let us just stick to the reset vs black level problem.]"


Now my query is, would this be the property of the control board/ temperature sensors etc dictating the all cell Initialization step, if there is any or just a very weak initial cell charge in stage 1.


Seeing that this a tweaking thread I’m trying to gather more fodder to take things to another level, if that is at all possible. Turrican has offered his efforts on resetting the control board to control possible black level rises for those who have boosted the voltages on the power supply to gain more head-room for the Set_up.
I’m just curious if there are more areas that can be explored than just adjusting the pots and also to expand our basic knowledge?
We may have exhausted any further tweaking due to panel/technology limitations but then again this is a thread for "tweaking" LG plasma panels for better blacks.

Robert
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post #920 of 1397 Old 01-25-2012, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

"10 times Sub Field firing occurs using wall charge and polarity differences between Y-SUS and Z-SUS signals."

This is describing the basic ACPDP operation. AC voltage is applied to the two parallel electrodes on the top of the cell. This voltage is added to the already existing wall charge voltage. Vappplied + Vwall is over the breakdown voltage causing discharge and recharging of wall charge in the opposite polarity. Then the applied voltage polarity is reversed causing discharge again.

There is a great animation of this concept online somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

If the set is cold (and I mean cold because of an open window in the middle of the winter, not just from being turned off for a few hours) there is an initial or maybe there is no all cell initialization as the screen in a dark room emits absolutely no light but the video processing is active, any object displayed is portrayed on a pitch black screen, unfortunately those objects have pixel noise which covers most of the screen, easily seen if I'm viewing a regular full screen image. Then after 30 seconds to a minute (which I'll call stage 2) the screen pops to it's regular MLL (which is still relatively dark) just not pitch black, at which point all pixel noise/misfires are then erased.

Now when the room has a reasonable ambient temperature the set (regardless of time off) will just start at the stage 2, no misfires and the regular viewing MLL.

I'd have to see this to believe it. You are suggesting that for a short time the panel has zero black-with content? If true I would say that the panel is still applying a reset pulse but the breakdown voltage is too high and thus discharge fails to occur.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Now my query is, would this be the property of the control board/ temperature sensors etc dictating the all cell Initialization step, if there is any or just a very weak initial cell charge in stage 1.

Temperature affects the breakdown voltage and the wall charge loss. Temp too low and the breakdown voltage rises too high. Too high and wall charge is lost too quickly. The reset pulse is altered (shape or number) to maintain proper reset of all pixels according to a temperature sensor.

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post #921 of 1397 Old 01-25-2012, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

What I would like to know, and maybe xrox can help me out here.
If the set is cold (“and I mean cold because of an open window in the middle of the winter, not just from being turned off for a few hours”) there is an initial or maybe there is no all cell initialization as the screen in a dark room emits absolutely no light but the video processing is active, any object displayed is portrayed on a pitch black screen, unfortunately those objects have pixel noise which covers most of the screen, easily seen if I’m viewing a regular full screen image. Then after 30 seconds to a minute (which I’ll call stage 2) the screen pops to it’s regular MLL (which is still relatively dark) just not pitch black, at which point all pixel noise/misfires are then erased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

I'd have to see this to believe it. You are suggesting that for a short time the panel has zero black-with content? If true I would say that the panel is still applying a reset pulse but the breakdown voltage is too high and thus discharge fails to occur.

Thanks xrox

Yes, I even covered the floating image or icon to make sure the panel was not quickly alternating between on and off as it normally does when the screen goes to black as the eye cannot adjust quickly enough.
I‘m pretty excited by this and thought it was something that needed more looking into as far as tweaking goes.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario

 

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post #922 of 1397 Old 01-25-2012, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Thanks xrox

Yes, I even covered the floating image or icon to make sure the panel was not quickly alternating between on and off as it normally does when the screen goes to black as the eye cannot adjust quickly enough.
Im pretty excited by this and thought it was something that needed more looking into as far as tweaking goes.

I'll be at the ACC tonight. Are you close by?

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post #923 of 1397 Old 01-25-2012, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

I'll be at the ACC tonight. Are you close by?

Hi xrox

You're in TO excellent, I'll send a PM.

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post #924 of 1397 Old 01-26-2012, 05:42 AM
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Yesterday I received the semi-new ysustain board from ebay. The seller said its pulled from new tvs with broken screens so the pots looked like they were in default positions. Initially I only put the new board in and readjusted Va, Vs, and VSB to panel voltages. The picture was flawless, but the blacks were dark grey in my dark room. So I turned set_up from 10 o'clock to 1 o'clock. The black letterboxes were almost bezel black. I was enjoying a blu ray movie last night and I did not get distracted by the black bars. Nevertheless, after watching the movie I stood close to the tv and noticed alot of vagrant red pixels in the middle of screen, so I woke up this morning to dial back set_up to 12 o'clock position. Measured the final black level this morning to be 0.015 for 24p and 0.021 for 60p. I guess last night the black level was close to 0.01 or slightly lower. The new ysustain board did not give me more headroom for set_up so it looks like the panel quality is probably the main reason for set_up headroom. The new board actually eliminated some uneven screen uniformity in the lower left hand corner of my panel, and it also decreased IR to almost nonexistent. Hence for $35 I learned a few lessons in tv repair, black level tweaking, and made the picture quality on my LG 50pk550 a little better too!!!
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post #925 of 1397 Old 01-26-2012, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caychanh30 View Post

Yesterday I received the semi-new ysustain board from ebay. The seller said its pulled from new tvs with broken screens so the pots looked like they were in default positions. Initially I only put the new board in and readjusted Va, Vs, and VSB to panel voltages. The picture was flawless, but the blacks were dark grey in my dark room. So I turned set_up from 10 o'clock to 1 o'clock. The black letterboxes were almost bezel black. I was enjoying a blu ray movie last night and I did not get distracted by the black bars. Nevertheless, after watching the movie I stood close to the tv and noticed alot of vagrant red pixels in the middle of screen, so I woke up this morning to dial back set_up to 12 o'clock position.

Thanks for the update caychanh,

Did you by chance try using the Vy to give you a bit more headroom for Set_up, but if most of the misfires are centered the Set_dn may be the culprit, try adjusting it just a touch left or right.
Also did you adjust the voltages for the new board while viewing a full white screen which is needed to get the correct readings for that panel?

Robert
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post #926 of 1397 Old 01-26-2012, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Thanks for the update caychanh,

Did you by chance try using the Vy to give you a bit more headroom for Set_up, but if most of the misfires are centered the Set_dn may be the culprit, try adjusting it just a touch left or right.
Also did you adjust the voltages for the new board while viewing a full white screen which is needed to get the correct readings for that panel?

Yes, as Rob said, the screen has to be in whitewash mode for a good 10 minutes prior to measuring the voltages. Also, be sure to adjust them in the order listed in the manual. You should be able to do better than .015. I agree a small clockwise turn of set_dn may be useful. Adjust set_up to just before you see misfires, then slightly turn set_dn clockwise.
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post #927 of 1397 Old 01-26-2012, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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And for the adventurous one could go one step further as did turrican4D with the control board as noted earlier on in this thread.


Here's the original source translation of Marc Wessels procedure from the German site.
http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-141-2177.html page 4

"Marc Wessels
Inventory
created: 29 Dec 2011, 00:23
lekabel there will certainly be happy to soon write in more detail. He makes dad so well as it should be with multimeter and service menu.

I've done it with the Haudraufmethode: (I believe the trans is without a multimeter or on the fly)

So, roughly speaking, the first set is totally gray, and so Set_Dn SET_UP counterclockwise to stop, but also YV. Dei tensions I had all of their permanent staff places they had occupied since the penultimate Potituning.

Then I turned on the TV and leave him three or four hours to warm up with film footage.

Off unplugged, capacitor discharge (!) And remove the LVDS cable from the Y-board.

Then quickly turned back on and warm again for half an hour (a gray black screen appears because the TV does not get even more input).

Then I alternate with SET_UP Set_Dn and slowly turned clockwise this image darker gray. SET_UP extent exactly how I had it previously in normal tuning (the start line, but the vertical noise bars, seems to be the same as always).

Set_Dn is rotated then super slow until very light clouds have (in a completely darkened room!) Is formed from disengaging subpixels. Contrast, then gently YV increased right up to the point where these clouds are clear weider by itself.

TV out, discharged power cord from the wall, capacitors, LVDS cable plugged in again, turn again and power the TV on (conveniently on the Blu-ray access, on the Tron still running) again.

After the film was half an hour, any artifacts were gone, then I also have "Black Swan" and "Labyrinth" is inserted, all crisp! "

Robert
Toronto, Ontario

 

https://myspace.com/151752802/videos

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post #928 of 1397 Old 01-26-2012, 10:23 AM
 
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Has anyone bothered to have their display professionally calibrated after these adjustments? It would be nice to have some data to coincide with the visual differences.
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post #929 of 1397 Old 01-26-2012, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedOctober205 View Post

Has anyone bothered to have their display professionally calibrated after these adjustments? It would be nice to have some data to coincide with the visual differences.

Well I'm not a professional, but I've calibrated several TVs. I calibrated my 60PK540 after the MLL tweak. There were no issues. Only good news.
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post #930 of 1397 Old 01-26-2012, 10:48 AM
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I tried to adjust set_dn, VSC and Vy a bit, but I was only able to eliminate some of the vagrant red pixels. I was able to eliminated most of the random red pixels with set_dn, but moving set_dn too much counterclockwise presented a series of pink pixels in the bottom 1/5 of the screen. I saw those pinkish pixels alot while the old board's set_up was shorted. I could have caused some panel damage while i was watching tv with the ysustain board slightly shorted. It was a give an take scenario and I chose the clean screen :P. I also still had problems measuring VSC and Vy with white wash, because I did not get the alligator clips yet. I had low black levels last night, but dialed back once I looked at the vagrant red pixels up close. They were definitely undetectable at my viewing position at about 12 ft away. I hope I don't have to take the tv off the mount at least a few more months. Will probably retweak again when I get some alligator clips for the DMM test leads.
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