LG Plasma Panel tweaks for better blacks. - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 1405 Old 01-29-2012, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Started at 2pm today. here

Cool
Now my brother wonders if he can do the same on his Pansonic so that his ST30 can match my PX950.

Robert
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post #992 of 1405 Old 01-29-2012, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by shield1280 View Post

i did the tweaks all 7 and all was great and till today its flickering in bright scene,how can I get it to go away?

I think I know the answer, but I have to ask. Do you have all of the enhancements turned off and color set to standard, not wide?
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post #993 of 1405 Old 01-29-2012, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

I experimented more last night, and it turns out that VSC does not significantly effect the waveform amplitude. In fact, it hardly changed it at all. I reset all voltages to their design values except set_down, which I decided to leave set at the maximum ramp width before it starts lifting off the voltage floor (150us). This gives me 0.007 FtL for 60fps inputs and 0.017 FtL for 24fps inputs. Very happy.

The TV is back on the wall. Hopefully it will stay there...

That was a lot of fun.

Well it's been 5 weeks now since I performed the tweak and I wanted to post a follow-up. I remeasured my MLL tonight and it is still at .007 ftL, exactly the same value where I left it. Also grayscale calibration still looks perfect as well. No changes whatsoever. This fix is stable!

2010 60PK540, tweaked with meter and scope to factory specs (plus a tiny bit of push of set_dn)
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post #994 of 1405 Old 01-30-2012, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by th3third View Post

I think I know the answer, but I have to ask. Do you have all of the enhancements turned off and color set to standard, not wide?

hi.all off and standard.

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post #995 of 1405 Old 01-30-2012, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by th3third View Post

I think I know the answer, but I have to ask. Do you have all of the enhancements turned off and color set to standard, not wide?

i had to turn the VS bit back and the flickering goes away

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post #996 of 1405 Old 01-30-2012, 09:56 AM
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I did just the set_up on my pv450 and wow what a difference! blacks are much better then what i was getting before and picture is nice and clear no noise or anything. i maxed it out with no problems so far.
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post #997 of 1405 Old 01-30-2012, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by th3third View Post

I think I know the answer, but I have to ask. Do you have all of the enhancements turned off and color set to standard, not wide?

i have mine set to wide i like it better that way.
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post #998 of 1405 Old 01-30-2012, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldicon12 View Post

I did just the set_up on my pv450 and wow what a difference! blacks are much better then what i was getting before and picture is nice and clear no noise or anything. i maxed it out with no problems so far.

Excellent!

Just for future reference how much rotation was available on your Set_up from the factory setting to max?

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #999 of 1405 Old 01-30-2012, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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The nice thing about being able to lower the MLL is not just the black level but the improvement it makes on the overall picture, prior to the tweak the image on my PX950 IMHO was already very good to excellent but with a much lower MLL I'm finding watching movies much more immersive, almost addictive!

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post #1000 of 1405 Old 01-30-2012, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Excellent!

Just for future reference how much rotation was available on your Set_up from the factory setting to max?

hi rob, i had my dad help me do it and he said the factory was at about 1oclock and adjusted almost to the max at about 20 and dialed back just alittle bit. 24 is about the max
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post #1001 of 1405 Old 01-30-2012, 02:03 PM
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We just crossed 1000 posts!

Thanks Rob!
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post #1002 of 1405 Old 01-30-2012, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Excellent!

Just for future reference how much rotation was available on your Set_up from the factory setting to max?

This is an interesting question. As you may recall, in my case I rotated set_up clockwise until it could go no further, and according to my scope, the waveform still was a little out of spec (but much much closer). That is, it wanted to be rotated even further.

I'll bet this is common to many of the people who are finding full clockwise to work fine.

These were my adjustments:

Set_UP
original = 12:00, final=3:00 (max clockwise)
This change reduced Set_up pulse height from 350V to 285V (target = 280 for my panel).

Set_Down
Original = 3:00, final = 3:30 (very slight turn clockwise)
This change increased Set_down ramp width from 125us to 140us (target = 140 for my panel).

Since then, I went a little further clockwise on set_dn to get a little darker.
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post #1003 of 1405 Old 01-30-2012, 07:20 PM
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I just got done tweaking Set_Dn on my set (I had previously set Set_Up to full clockwise). I was able to get the MLL down to .005 ftL to match my brothers ST30. I was able to turn Set_Dn from approx 3:00 to roughly 4:00 o'clock. I found it easier to turn Set_Dn full clockwise and work backwards until misfires were no longer noticeable. I did not touch any of the other pots.

After adjustment, I was able to measure an ANSI contrast ratio of 3481! .008ftL/28.183ftL!

Overall, I am very pleased with the results and now it is time for a new calibration. I will begin with a 2 point Day time calibration and then a 20 point Night time calibration.
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post #1004 of 1405 Old 01-30-2012, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slosvt View Post

I just got done tweaking Set_Dn on my set (I had previously set Set_Up to full clockwise). I was able to get the MLL down to .005 ftL to match my brothers ST30. I was able to turn Set_Dn from approx 3:00 to roughly 4:00 o'clock. I found it easier to turn Set_Dn full clockwise and work backwards until misfires were no longer noticeable. I did not touch any of the other pots.

After adjustment, I was able to measure an ANSI contrast ratio of 3481! .008ftL/28.183ftL!

Overall, I am very pleased with the results and now it is time for a new calibration. I will begin with a 2 point Day time calibration and then a 20 point Night time calibration.

I went ahead and changed the vy full counterclockwise on my pz750 along with moving setup and setdown clockwise and then backing off slightly. Now I do have better blacks but I have noticed something interesting that is happening when the screen turns black. I really need to gets some feeedback from others see if this is normal:

So when the screen goes black for more than 3 seconds, (between movie previews, loading screens on ps3, end of films, or any scene that goes to pitch black) the screen will turn off - and you can see the transition from the on state to the off state. once the program Im watching starts the next scene, the screen will come back on seamlessly without any evident switch back on.... anyways it makes the black scenes really cool and dark. I am loving it but dont know if this is safe/normal/gonna lead to short...

this is my experience and I am not sure if its normal or not but it definietly gives you ultimate blacks since the set is OFF!!

I only did this last night so not sure if it will last...
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post #1005 of 1405 Old 01-30-2012, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pz750 View Post

So when the screen goes black for more than 3 seconds, (between movie previews, loading screens on ps3, end of films, or any scene that goes to pitch black) the screen will turn off - and you can see the transition from the on state to the off state. once the program Im watching starts the next scene, the screen will come back on seamlessly without any evident switch back on.... anyways it makes the black scenes really cool and dark. I am loving it but dont know if this is safe/normal/gonna lead to short...

this is my experience and I am not sure if its normal or not but it definietly gives you ultimate blacks since the set is OFF!!

I only did this last night so not sure if it will last...

Depends on your RGB video settings from the source, for example setting my Apple TV 2 HDMI video to RGB low (0-255) I get the transition to complete black as you mentioned although I get it after a second and it is quite neat how the next scene comes from 0 black, it happens quite fast. Setting the HDMI to Auto, YCrCb or RGB high(16-235) it does not happen, but with "RGB low" some dark scenes become too dark with possible crushed blacks.

Basically with RGB low (0-255) and your new "lower MLL" the black is so low the screen detects no signal and monetarily goes black.

The easiest way to check is to display a black slide, you'll see your current MLL for a second or two then complete darkness.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #1006 of 1405 Old 01-30-2012, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Depends on your RGB video settings from the source, for example setting my Apple TV 2 HDMI video to RGB low (0-256) I get the transition to complete black as you mentioned although I get it after a second and it is quite neat how the next scene comes from 0 black, it happens quite fast. Setting the HDMI to Auto, YCrCb or RGB high(16-256) it does not happen, but with "RGB low" some dark scenes become too dark with possible crushed blacks.

Basically with RGB low (0-256) and your new "lower MLL" the black is so low the screen detects no signal and monetarily goes black.

The easiest way to check is to display a black slide, you'll see your current MLL for a second or two then complete darkness.

I noticed that it will happen much quicker with intelligent sensor on than without since it auto dims everything. so with new lower mll and auto dim, it makes sense that it gets low enough that the display will not detect a signal and go off...

thanks for the input!
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post #1007 of 1405 Old 01-31-2012, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pz750 View Post

I went ahead and changed the vy full counterclockwise on my pz750 along with moving setup and setdown clockwise and then backing off slightly. Now I do have better blacks but I have noticed something interesting that is happening when the screen turns black. I really need to gets some feeedback from others see if this is normal:

So when the screen goes black for more than 3 seconds, (between movie previews, loading screens on ps3, end of films, or any scene that goes to pitch black) the screen will turn off - and you can see the transition from the on state to the off state. once the program Im watching starts the next scene, the screen will come back on seamlessly without any evident switch back on.... anyways it makes the black scenes really cool and dark. I am loving it but dont know if this is safe/normal/gonna lead to short...

this is my experience and I am not sure if its normal or not but it definietly gives you ultimate blacks since the set is OFF!!

I only did this last night so not sure if it will last...

What do you have brightness set at?
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post #1008 of 1405 Old 01-31-2012, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Muffins View Post

What do you have brightness set at?

Hi Muffins,

Not to answer for pz750 but my brightness is set at 51 after basic calibration,
which was were it was also at before tweaking.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #1009 of 1405 Old 01-31-2012, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post


Basically with RGB low (0-256) and your new "lower MLL" the black is so low the screen detects no signal and monetarily goes black.

Not sure I agree here. MLL is not dependent on input signal. It seems unlikely that there should be a relationship between MLL and the feature decides when to turn the screen off during periods of no input. If anything, the new lower MLL should make this transition less apparent, not more. Something else must have changed.

EDIT: Unless the screen is being turned off during periods of low current draw. That could link the two I suppose.
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post #1010 of 1405 Old 01-31-2012, 09:12 AM
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I agree with rpauls, if the display senses a signal (any signal) it will turn on at mll regardless of the signal level (it's just a 8 bit number that maps to a 10 bit number in the DSP). The only time it turns off is if no signal is negotiated at all. The transition from these two states is now much less noticeable with the lower mll.
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post #1011 of 1405 Old 01-31-2012, 09:18 AM
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Opened up the 50pk550 Jan 2010 build again on Monday. Noticed a slight abnormality of pink mal discharge on bottom part of screen in LG blu ray menu screen on cold start, so I dialed VZB, Vy and VSC back to panel spec. Also dialed set_up back from 1 o'clock to 12 o'clock. Black levels still acceptable, but the panel is free of mal discharge (random stuck red pixels).
I crave about getting zero black and watch movies in pitch dark room at night, but the black levels are still alot better than when set_up was at 9 o'clock stock position. :P
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post #1012 of 1405 Old 01-31-2012, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Depends on your RGB video settings from the source, for example setting my Apple TV 2 HDMI video to RGB low (0-256) I get the transition to complete black as you mentioned although I get it after a second and it is quite neat how the next scene comes from 0 black, it happens quite fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

Not sure I agree here. MLL is not dependent on input signal. It seems unlikely that there should be a relationship between MLL and the feature decides when to turn the screen off during periods of no input. If anything, the new lower MLL should make this transition less apparent, not more. Something else must have changed.

EDIT: Unless the screen is being turned off during periods of low current draw. That could link the two I suppose.

Hi Rpauls

That's about the only explanation I can come up with, the screen definitely turns off after a second when the scene goes to black, and as I noted this only happens when the HDMI video is set to RGB low.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

The easiest way to check is to display a black slide, you'll see your current MLL for a second or two then complete darkness.

If I display a black slide with RGB High the panel will not turn off, therefore it will not go pitch black, and will continue at what I assume is the current MLL.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #1013 of 1405 Old 01-31-2012, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

Not sure I agree here. MLL is not dependent on input signal.

Agreed, but it definitely has something to do when using RGB 0-255 as opposed to Auto, YCrCb, or RGB High (16-235).

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I agree with rpauls, if the display senses a signal (any signal) it will turn on at mll regardless of the signal level (it's just a 8 bit number that maps to a 10 bit number in the DSP). The only time it turns off is if no signal is negotiated at all. The transition from these two states is now much less noticeable with the lower mll.

And that is the question, is there or is there not a signal when the film goes to black when the source is set at RGB 0-255, or is anything below video black considered off by the sets sensor.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #1014 of 1405 Old 01-31-2012, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

And that is the question, is there or is there not a signal when the film goes to black when the source is set at RGB 0-256, or is anything below video black considered off by the sets sensor.

I'll check this evening to see if increasing the brightness has any effect on this, although I really love this fade to pitch black and then the next scene comes out of pitch black.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #1015 of 1405 Old 01-31-2012, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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One more thing, changing between Auto, YCrCb, RGB High (0-255) or RGB High (16-235) does not appear to change the black of the black slide.

Robert
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post #1016 of 1405 Old 01-31-2012, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caychanh30 View Post

Opened up the 50pk550 Jan 2010 build again on Monday. Noticed a slight abnormality of pink mal discharge on bottom part of screen in LG blu ray menu screen on cold start, so I dialed VZB, Vy and VSC back to panel spec. Also dialed set_up back from 1 o'clock to 12 o'clock. Black levels still acceptable, but the panel is free of mal discharge (random stuck red pixels).
I crave about getting zero black and watch movies in pitch dark room at night, but the black levels are still alot better than when set_up was at 9 o'clock stock position. :P

Hi caychanh30

Before your current tweaks did the misfires clear up after a few minutes or afew still remained.
I would try adjusting just the -Vy again to see if you can get more headroom with Set_up.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #1017 of 1405 Old 01-31-2012, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Agreed, but it definitely has something to do when using RGB 0-256 as opposed to Auto, YCrCb, or RGB High (16-235).

Just a guess here, but I believe the mapping of input levels from the 0:255 range to the 16:235 range is done by simple truncation rather than linear scaling; that is, the values 0:15 all map to 16, and 235:255 all map to 235.

My understanding is if you set the source (in this case your ATV 2) to output only standard video range (16:235) then all values below 16 will be converted to 16, so in RGB High mode, there is never a digital value lower than 16 sent from the ATV 2 to the TV. When you set the ATV 2 to full range (0 : 255) there is the possibility of it sending a 0 level signal. Someone correct me if this is wrong.

The TV could be triggering on the 0 level input for more then T seconds as an indication of no signal.
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post #1018 of 1405 Old 01-31-2012, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Hi Muffins,

Not to answer for pz750 but my brightness is set at 51 after basic calibration,
which was were it was also at before tweaking.

My brightness is at 50. and contrast at 77.

Unfortunately above 50, i get nasty blacks that look like a bubbly mess... floating blacks or dithering noise?

ive been doing some calibrations with IRE again under 20 point IRE since doing the pot tweaks to help get better picture. so hopefully I will have new setup posted by next week...
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post #1019 of 1405 Old 01-31-2012, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

If anything, the new lower MLL should make this transition less apparent, not more. Something else must have changed.

Hi rpauls

Yes the transition to off is less apparent with the lower MLL but still noticeable all the same but you do need to be in a dark room to really notice it at all.
What did definitely did change is that it happens with every black screen and it happens very fast, I do not remember happening prior to the tweak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

Just a guess here, but I believe the mapping of input levels from the 0:255 range to the 16:235 range is done by simple truncation rather than linear scaling; that is, the values 0:15 all map to 16, and 235:255 all map to 235.

My understanding is if you set the source (in this case your ATV 2) to output only standard video range (16:235) then all values below 16 will be converted to 16, so in RGB High mode, there is never a digital value lower than 16 sent from the ATV 2 to the TV. When you set the ATV 2 to full range (0 : 255) there is the possibility of it sending a 0 level signal. Someone correct me if this is wrong.

The TV could be triggering on the 0 level input for more then T seconds as an indication of no signal.

Even though the screen goes to "0" black there must obviously still be a signal as displaying a black slide which then goes to "0" black with RGB 0-256 I will not get the LG "no signal" floating icon no matter how long I wait.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #1020 of 1405 Old 01-31-2012, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pz750 View Post

My brightness is at 50. and contrast at 77.

Unfortunately above 50, i get nasty blacks that look like a bubbly mess... floating blacks or dithering noise?

Hi pz750

We have discussed this a few times, and we all basically agree that there is a sweet spot when it comes to the brightness level to eliminate the obvious dithering.
Some say it's worse with LG but if you follow some of the threads for other makes it definitely is a plasma thing, I've seen it quite blatantly on occasion with the current Panasonics.
What I believe has happened is that with the lower black levels it has just become more obvious.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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