LG Plasma Panel tweaks for better blacks. - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 1404 Old 02-21-2012, 05:32 AM
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A friend called to service LG and asked if this trick is safe, here is his reply:

Today I called to two separate services that fix LG Plasma. In both service engineers advised against turning the knobs on the back of the motherboard, because the change in setting changes the parameters of the hybrid systems that LG used in virtually any plasma, and this in turn inevitably leads to overheating of the hybrids, significantly shortening their lifespan - TV can not survive even end of warranty. Such a hybrid system chip costs about 1000 - 1500 zł, so a lot - if damaged. The first service guy said to let it go to get used to but the other guy says he will check gets a special device, which are services for this model LG and maybe then it would be possible to electronically set the parameters so as to improve the black and that there was no side effects. In any case, too discouraged to change the settings of potentiometers - it can bring the effect in the short run.

Translated by google translator from Polish

What do u think about it ? His TV LG 60 PZ 750S
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post #1082 of 1404 Old 02-21-2012, 06:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadajo View Post

A friend called to service LG and asked if this trick is safe, here is his reply:

Today I called to two separate services that fix LG Plasma. In both service engineers advised against turning the knobs on the back of the motherboard, because the change in setting changes the parameters of the hybrid systems that LG used in virtually any plasma, and this in turn inevitably leads to overheating of the hybrids, significantly shortening their lifespan - TV can not survive even end of warranty. Such a hybrid system chip costs about 1000 - 1500 zł, so a lot - if damaged. The first service guy said to let it go to get used to but the other guy says he will check gets a special device, which are services for this model LG and maybe then it would be possible to electronically set the parameters so as to improve the black and that there was no side effects. In any case, too discouraged to change the settings of potentiometers - it can bring the effect in the short run.

Translated by google translator from Polish

What do u think about it ? His TV LG 60 PZ 750S

I've no doubt that radically changing the power supply voltages may cause adverse effects,but I'm not convinced about the Sus-board adjustments, Set-up/Set_dn. Also some have adjusted the voltages to the panel labels or in my case just left at the factory positions and have achieved excellent results, only time will tell, how much time that's the question.
Either way with any tweaking you take a risk, but you own the set and the worst case scenario if things go terrible wrong is a service call not covered under warranty.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #1083 of 1404 Old 02-21-2012, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadajo View Post

A friend called to service LG and asked if this trick is safe, here is his reply:

Today I called to two separate services that fix LG Plasma. In both service engineers advised against turning the knobs on the back of the motherboard, because the change in setting changes the parameters of the hybrid systems that LG used in virtually any plasma, and this in turn inevitably leads to overheating of the hybrids, significantly shortening their lifespan - TV can not survive even end of warranty. Such a hybrid system chip costs about 1000 - 1500 zł, so a lot - if damaged. The first service guy said to let it go to get used to but the other guy says he will check gets a special device, which are services for this model LG and maybe then it would be possible to electronically set the parameters so as to improve the black and that there was no side effects. In any case, too discouraged to change the settings of potentiometers - it can bring the effect in the short run.

Translated by google translator from Polish

What do u think about it ? His TV LG 60 PZ 750S

That sounds a bunch of rubbish. Ask him if you should change the flux capacitor ;-)
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post #1084 of 1404 Old 02-21-2012, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I do not believe any manufacturer of any consumer item would endorse any type of change, modification, tweak etc to their product, you'll always be told "it's a bad thing". But the truth is unless you're dealing with a high end product which has been manufactured and tweaked for maximum performance for which you're going to pay, the average mass consumer product is at a hit or missed performance level, the time and money is just not there if the manufacturer wishes to be competitive and make a profit. In the end it's consumers like us who just want to take the possible performance up a notch and that's where tweaking comes in, be it a plasma TV, car, bike, audio equipment, computer you name it. Let's just say we like rearranging the house to our liking.

Robert
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post #1085 of 1404 Old 02-21-2012, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadajo View Post

and this in turn inevitably leads to overheating of the hybrids, significantly shortening their lifespan - TV can not survive even end of warranty.

Translated by google translator from Polish

Forget the warranty, I'm sure there are few that if they had not done the tweak, the set would not have survived much longer in their living rooms.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #1086 of 1404 Old 02-21-2012, 08:16 AM
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In my case, anyway, the "tweak" consisted of nothing more than carefully setting the TV to its ideal design operating values as described in LG's own service manuals, and had nothing to do with stressing anything.

And the results were stunning. It's the way LG should have shipped them from the factory if they had the time to invest fine tuning each set. But then it would cost more. I personally prefer to pay less and do it myself, but most people would not feel comfortable doing this.
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post #1087 of 1404 Old 02-21-2012, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

In my case, anyway, the "tweak" consisted of nothing more than carefully setting the TV to its ideal design operating values as described in LG's own service manuals, and had nothing to do with stressing anything.

And the results were stunning. It's the way LG should have shipped them from the factory if they had the time to invest fine tuning each set. But then it would cost more. I personally prefer to pay less and do it myself, but most people would not feel comfortable doing this.

I cannot remember, did you have to change the other pots much? Those measured with a voltmeter, not setup or down.
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post #1088 of 1404 Old 02-22-2012, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadajo View Post

A friend called to service LG and asked if this trick is safe, here is his reply:

Today I called to two separate services that fix LG Plasma. In both service engineers advised against turning the knobs on the back of the motherboard, because the change in setting changes the parameters of the hybrid systems that LG used in virtually any plasma, and this in turn inevitably leads to overheating of the hybrids, significantly shortening their lifespan - TV can not survive even end of warranty. Such a hybrid system chip costs about 1000 - 1500 zł, so a lot - if damaged. The first service guy said to let it go to get used to but the other guy says he will check gets a special device, which are services for this model LG and maybe then it would be possible to electronically set the parameters so as to improve the black and that there was no side effects. In any case, too discouraged to change the settings of potentiometers - it can bring the effect in the short run.

Translated by google translator from Polish

What do u think about it ? His TV LG 60 PZ 750S

Turning the knobs "inevitably" leads to overheating of the components on the motherboard? What, any turning of any knob? Inevitable damage, significantly shortening the lifespan of "virtually any" LG plasma? Why are the knobs there in the first place -- are they self-destruct buttons?

Also, how much shortening counts as "significant"? 1000 hrs off of a 100,000-hr lifespan? 1000 hrs is a lot of viewing time. Etc etc etc etc

"... we wonÂt be stopping plasma production any time soon. We see it going on for another ten years." -- Kevin Lee, VP, Smart TV Partnerships (Samsung), 1/7/11
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post #1089 of 1404 Old 02-22-2012, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slosvt View Post

I cannot remember, did you have to change the other pots much? Those measured with a voltmeter, not setup or down.

No. I set all the pots to the OEM specs on the stickers. Even set_up and set_dn I set using an oscilloscope exactly according to the procedure in the manual. This reduced my MLL from about .027 to .008.

Then I turned set_dn slightly clockwise from this position to get .007 and left it there.

Only set_up/dn really made any difference. They were way off from the values listed in the manual. The other voltages were really close to begin with. When I first bought the TV over a year ago MLL was around .016, so obviously it increased over time as it aged. Since the adjustment it has been rock solid at .007 for the last few months.
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post #1090 of 1404 Old 02-23-2012, 11:10 AM
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Hi,

Thanks everyone for this loooong thread with alot of information.

I'm just done adjusting the set_up pot only on my PK550n. I tried all sources I have, and then turned it off for 3h to let it cool down. Didn't notice any missfires at startup, so I hope it will be fine. And the white got no more noise than the normal plasma noise. My pot was at 12 o'clock and now it's maxed at 16 o'clock.

Noticed as other ppl the more obvious dancing dots, but with a little lowered brightness it feels better but I crush the black a bit :/ But rather crushed than the dancing. And I'm just capable to do a basic calibration since I doesn't have any equipment for a real calibration.

Now it's time to put the cover back on.

Thanks again!!
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post #1091 of 1404 Old 02-23-2012, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade View Post

Hi,

Thanks everyone for this loooong thread with alot of information.

I'm just done adjusting the set_up pot only on my PK550n. I tried all sources I have, and then turned it off for 3h to let it cool down. Didn't notice any missfires at startup, so I hope it will be fine. And the white got no more noise than the normal plasma noise. My pot was at 12 o'clock and now it's maxed at 16 o'clock.

Noticed as other ppl the more obvious dancing dots, but with a little lowered brightness it feels better but I crush the black a bit :/ But rather crushed than the dancing. And I'm just capable to do a basic calibration since I doesn't have any equipment for a real calibration.

Now it's time to put the cover back on.

Thanks again!!

Hi Fade

Thanks for your input.
Funny I wrote a reply and thought I would check you're previous posts before posting, looks like you already had all the bases covered.

If you are referring to the dancing pixels in dark areas it's a plasma trait,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade View Post

And in that case a Samsung and a Panasonic problem, since I have it on my old PS42C96 in very low black and my fathers TX-P42C10Y. Exactly the same.
Do anyone of you actually see the dots when you watch tv?
If you watch a white to black (including grey) calibration pattern for contrast and brightness. Just before BTB, do you acutally see it as green from the sofa or your chair?

the lower blacks just make it more obvious close up, but at normally viewing distances it should not be a problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade View Post

On all plasmas I've seen when it comes to the area in color near black there will be what you call dancing pixels. I've never called this an error since I thought it was a part of the technology.

Not all details should be seen in dark scenes, even though you can see them if the brightness is increased so you may not necessarily be crushing the blacks. Displaying a grey-scale from a calibration disc or slide should verify this though, also if your source is set to output RGB 0-255 you'll get crushed blacks.
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Originally Posted by Fade View Post

I would say your brightness is too high. All details in black is not always ment to be shown. I would recommend you to watch DVE HDBASICS. There's a tutorial explaining this.

How do find black levels now that you've tweaked your set, also do you still experience the horizontal and vertical smudging you happened to notice on your set back in 2010.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #1092 of 1404 Old 02-23-2012, 02:30 PM
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Hi rob, thanks for the reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Not all details should be seen in dark scenes, even though you can see them if the brightness is increased so you may not necessarily be crushing the blacks. Displaying a grey-scale from a calibration disc or slide should verify this though, also if your source is set to output RGB 0-255 you’ll get crushed blacks.

The output on my HTPC is set to YCbCr 4:4:4. But as playback I'm using ffdshow which does a YCbCr 16-240 -> RGB 16-235 conversion. Doesn't seems to be an option to not do it. When using a normal pattern for calibrating brightness 17 and 18 are also pitch black, 19 got some dancing in it, and 20 some more, after that I see better shades of gray. If I increase brightness even more I get dancing greens over the whole screen. Think this could be fixed with a 20point real calibration, but I lack the skills and the equipment

(If I set gamma to low (using medium) I get too bright grays all the way down to 17, even if I lower brightness, which make me loose alot of depth since dark scene's becomes very bright.)

sorry for going a little of topic here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

How do find black levels now that you’ve tweaked your set, also do you still experience the horizontal and vertical smudging you happened to notice on your set back in 2010.

The black is better, quite a lot. But I got back the smudges, guess it is what nowdays is called DSE. Since the blacklevels increased the DSE have been harder to notice, now when it's back down it's easier to spot. Still, I'm kinda noticing everything right now Feels like a new set and I'm looking for flaws allover again
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post #1093 of 1404 Old 02-23-2012, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade View Post

Hi rob, thanks for the reply.

The output on my HTPC is set to YCbCr 4:4:4. But as playback I'm using ffdshow which does a YCbCr 16-240 -> RGB 16-235 conversion. Doesn't seems to be an option to not do it. When using a normal pattern for calibrating brightness 17 and 18 are also pitch black, 19 got some dancing in it, and 20 some more, after that I see better shades of gray.

If levels 17 and 18 are indistinguishable from black (16) then you are crushing blacks. Normally the fix for this is to simply turn up brightness a bit. Have you tried this?
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post #1094 of 1404 Old 02-23-2012, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

If levels 17 and 18 are indistinguishable from black (16) then you are crushing blacks. Normally the fix for this is to simply turn up brightness a bit. Have you tried this?

Yes, when I do this the whole screen get green dancing dots. But it was like this before the tweak also. (gamma medium).

@gamma low = I can hit the black quite good on 16, and at 17 the gray start.. But the starting gray @17 is to bright, which cause the picture in movies to be too bright in dark scenes.

Maybe it's time for me to invest in some calibration hardware and read up a bit.

Btw, MLL for 24p (72hz) is brighter than 60hz on my 60pk550n (scandinavian version).
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post #1095 of 1404 Old 02-23-2012, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi fade,

I believe it's all relevant, so no problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade View Post

Hi rob, thanks for the reply.

sorry for going a little of topic here.

The black is better, quite a lot. But I got back the smudges, guess it is what nowdays is called DSE. Since the blacklevels increased the DSE have been harder to notice, now when it's back down it's easier to spot. Still, I'm kinda noticing everything right now Feels like a new set and I'm looking for flaws allover again


Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

If levels 17 and 18 are indistinguishable from black (16) then you are crushing blacks. Normally the fix for this is to simply turn up brightness a bit. Have you tried this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade View Post

Yes, when I do this the whole screen get green dancing dots. But it was like this before the tweak also. (gamma medium).

Do you mean just in the dark areas and or the black letter box bars in 2.35 ?
If so, when I first tweaked my PG25 I removed a lot of noise "green dancing dots" with a slight adjustment of the Set_dn, I believe counter clockwise. My PX950 which I believe has the same panel as your PK550 appears to be fine.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #1096 of 1404 Old 02-23-2012, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Hi fade,

I believe it's all relevant, so no problem.

Do you mean just in the dark areas and or the black letter box bars in 2.35 ?
If so, when I first tweaked my PG25 I removed a lot of noise "green dancing dots" with a slight adjustment of the Set_dn, I believe counter clockwise. My PX950 which I believe has the same panel as your PK550 appears to be fine.

It appears all over screen, even in black bars. But did so even before the tweak when going too high in brightness. I can get up to 54, but 55 gives the green dancing. Maybe a set_dn tweak could get this better, but I'll try to get it better calibrated first. (If I occupy the tv for myself this weekend my wife would be far more dangerous than me electricute myself on the tv )

update: No missfires this morning after about 6h cooldown.
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post #1097 of 1404 Old 02-24-2012, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade View Post

It appears all over screen, even in black bars. But did so even before the tweak when going too high in brightness. I can get up to 54, but 55 gives the green dancing. Maybe a set_dn tweak could get this better, but I'll try to get it better calibrated first. (If I occupy the tv for myself this weekend my wife would be far more dangerous than me electricute myself on the tv )

update: No missfires this morning after about 6h cooldown.

Confusion alert! I believe the green dancing pixels are completely different from missfires.

The dancing Fade is talking about is the normal plasma dither for near blacks, the missfires issue looks completely different. I have seen both personally.

The brightness adjustment on these set is very sensitive. Typically I run at 54, and even one click higher to 55 and I see all the blacks full of "dancing pixels" of one color or another (usually green).

Gamma affects the curve relating input level to brightness. When you run the low gamma there is a little more difference between the brightness of the lower levels, i.e., the difference between 17 and 16 is increased, so that 17 now breaks through the "all off" threshold and shows up as brighter than 16. The higher gamma has the opposite effect, putting less space between the lower levels and therefore crushing blacks.

I agree that a calibration should be able to fix this, but I would expect you could get fairly close with the default settings. What do you get with medium gamma in standard mode and everything else reset? Can you find a brightness level that allows 16 to be full black but still shows 17 and 18 as brighter? (Even though they are a very ugly sort of brighter. That's just a limitation of this set)
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post #1098 of 1404 Old 02-24-2012, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

Confusion alert! I believe the green dancing pixels are completely different from missfires.

The dancing Fade is talking about is the normal plasma dither for near blacks, the missfires issue looks completely different. I have seen both personally.

The brightness adjustment on these set is very sensitive. Typically I run at 54, and even one click higher to 55 and I see all the blacks full of "dancing pixels" of one color or another (usually green).

I agree that a calibration should be able to fix this, but I would expect you could get fairly close with the default settings.

Hi rpauls

I agree but there should not be obvious dithering within the letter box bars even when boosting the brightness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade View Post

It appears all over screen, even in black barsBut did so even before the tweak when going too high in brightness.

Not too sure calibration would help.

When I was tweaking my PG25 I did notice the green dancing pixels within the letter box bars if Set_dn was advanced too far so it may be worth a try by Fade, if I boost the brightness on either the PG25 or PX950 the bars just get lighter but they will be uniform gray with no dithering or noise.

Robert
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post #1099 of 1404 Old 02-24-2012, 10:04 AM
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Just writing this to report that my PK540 has a great black level after having adjusted the pots a couple of months ago. In fact I could swear that the black level is darker now than it was after the first time I adjusted the pots. The only anomaly is that I get some red pixel misfires after I first turn on the TV but they disappear after 30 seconds or so. Also, during the time, the picture will suddenly get a bit brighter after 30 seconds. You can easily see it get brighter but the picture looks amazing. Much better than it did a few months ago.
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post #1100 of 1404 Old 02-24-2012, 10:41 AM
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...Also, during the time, the picture will suddenly get a bit brighter after 30 seconds. You can easily see it get brighter but the picture looks amazing. ...

Same thing on my PV350
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post #1101 of 1404 Old 02-24-2012, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehgz1 View Post

Just writing this to report that my PK540 has a great black level after having adjusted the pots a couple of months ago. In fact I could swear that the black level is darker now than it was after the first time I adjusted the pots. The only anomaly is that I get some red pixel misfires after I first turn on the TV but they disappear after 30 seconds or so. Also, during the time, the picture will suddenly get a bit brighter after 30 seconds. You can easily see it get brighter but the picture looks amazing. Much better than it did a few months ago.

Hi ehgz1

Thanks for the update.

I have a similar scenario with my PX950 although the room has to be relatively quite cool.
Just curious if you've tried turning on your set without a source turned on in a dark room, when I have noise (misfires) at the start_up with no source turned on I will get the floating LG "no signal" icon (noisy mind you) on a "pitch black back-round" for the first 30 seconds or so and then the screen pops to it's tweaked MLL and any misfires are eradicated, also the screen will go pitch black with a black screen between scenes.
I also feel the MLL has improved even more since doing the tweak, and yes I agree the picture looks amazing.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #1102 of 1404 Old 02-24-2012, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Kadajo

So you did finally tweak your set, did you get close to your goal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadajo View Post

01-13-12, 11:30 AM

Hi everyone, my first post here.

After spendnig whole day reading this wonderful topic i want to ask u that my PV350 has this tweak avaible also.

Thnak you

My picture look like on this screen:


and this is i want at least:


Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #1103 of 1404 Old 02-24-2012, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Hi rpauls

I agree but there should not be obvious dithering within the letter box bars even when boosting the brightness.

Are you sure? I'm fairly certain that if I turn up brightness even the parts of the screen that are supposed to be full black will start to brighten up.
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post #1104 of 1404 Old 02-24-2012, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

Are you sure? I'm fairly certain that if I turn up brightness even the parts of the screen that are supposed to be full black will start to brighten up.

Hi rpauls

Yes everything should lighten up but there should be no video information in the letter box bars they should just get lighter, no dithering. The exception is when watching wide screen movies when "broadcast" where the letter box bars are incorporated into the video transfer so that they are actually part of the broadcast video information and will show dithering when lightened.
Sometimes streaming (netflix) 2:35 movies will also show dithering in the bars but depends on how the transfer was done.
Blu-ray and DVD of course should be free of noise in the letter box bars.

Robert
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post #1105 of 1404 Old 02-24-2012, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Hi Kadajo

So you did finally tweak your set, did you get close to your goal?

Close enough.
I can lower mll even more, but then the bottom of the panel starts to "glow" less than the upper. it's hard to describe. The effect is visible only on bright scenes, but the line (shadow like) goes through the entire bottom panel, statring exactly in the middle of screen horizontaly. It is barely visible, so I do not know you noticed it on your plasmas. For me this undesired result occurs when I set Set_Dn (most influence on the black level on my pv350) clockwise.

It looks exactly like in this picture (if u dont see it the red arrow on right points it), but for me the line starts exactly in the middle of the screen:
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/4098/1003889.jpg
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post #1106 of 1404 Old 02-24-2012, 07:01 PM
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Hi rpauls

Yes everything should lighten up but there should be no video information in the letter box bars they should just get lighter, no dithering.

As far as I know, the only way the plasma can make the near black levels is with dithering. I'll give it a try later on.
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post #1107 of 1404 Old 02-24-2012, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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As far as I know, the only way the plasma can make the near black levels is with dithering. I'll give it a try later on.

Sorry rpuals, your right. I should have said "obvious dithering" with dancing pixels.

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Yes, when I do this the whole screen get green dancing dots. But it was like this before the tweak also. (gamma medium).

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Hi fade

Do you mean just in the dark areas and or the black letter box bars in 2.35 ?

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It appears all over screen, even in black bars. But did so even before the tweak when going too high in brightness.


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post #1108 of 1404 Old 02-28-2012, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Looks like LG broke the link to the service manuals.

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post #1109 of 1404 Old 02-28-2012, 10:23 AM
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Looks like LG broke the link to the service manuals.

Shiatsu, they're on to us!!
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post #1110 of 1404 Old 02-28-2012, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Looks like LG broke the link to the service manuals.

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Shiatsu, they're on to us!!

Ya. But they're toooo late!!!!.

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