LG Plasma Panel tweaks for better blacks. - Page 39 - AVS Forum
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post #1141 of 1400 Old 04-01-2012, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Forget the warranty, I'm sure there are few that if they had not done the tweak, the set would not have survived much longer in their living rooms.

I would have thrown my set out of the window long ago in June 2010!

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post #1142 of 1400 Old 04-01-2012, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Not too sure calibration would help.

The right combination of R, G and at 5IRE can do wonders...


Also, the noise in the shades near black is clearly and very obvious extreme ugly with LG plasmas. Panasonic is way better in that category.
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post #1143 of 1400 Old 04-02-2012, 05:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

The right combination of R, G and at 5IRE can do wonders...


Also, the noise in the shades near black is clearly and very obvious extreme ugly with LG plasmas. Panasonic is way better in that category.

Hi Turrican

Scrutinizing my two brothers ST50's, 50" and 60" IMHO they are not really that much better than my PX950, it's also being discussed frequently with the Samsungs.
How obvious the dithering depends on your viewing distance but if your too close it can be easily seen, and yes it's not pretty, I'm fine at 10'-12'.
By the way how is your black level holding up since your last tweak, as I mentioned above mine appears to have lowered slightly(gotten better) but at some point I really need to get it measured.

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post #1144 of 1400 Old 04-02-2012, 06:24 AM
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The GT50 and VT50 are advertising additional gradations this year using a new panel drive system that should improve their near-black performance. It'd be interesting to see one of these up close.

My samsung is also bad with 1-2% black level dithering if you look up close and not noticeable from viewing distance.
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post #1145 of 1400 Old 04-02-2012, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post

Now that lg found out that we are tweaking our tvs,Im hoping that they don't eliminate the pots on future boards.

They know? What did they say about it?
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post #1146 of 1400 Old 04-02-2012, 06:56 AM
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They would never eliminate the pots just because a few people are adjusting them. The cost of redesigning and spinning boards to move these controls into eeproms is enormous and you have to have the controls somewhere. They would only do it if they saw some advantage to having digital control over the waveforms (panasonic and the larger samsung panels already do it this way).
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post #1147 of 1400 Old 04-02-2012, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

They would never eliminate the pots just because a few people are adjusting them. The cost of redesigning and spinning boards to move these controls into eeproms is enormous and you have to have the controls somewhere. They would only do it if they saw some advantage to having digital control over the waveforms (panasonic and the larger samsung panels already do it this way).

I believe a lot a folks get paranoid about big brother, its your set paid with your money and I don't think a manufacturer cares one way or another what one does with their set, reverse engineering is another thing.
Tweaking is at your own risk, so if your up to it why not if it improves or corrects any short failings.

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post #1148 of 1400 Old 04-02-2012, 08:14 PM
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I haven't been in the plasma forum lately, but I had been praying that I would eventually learn of some miracle cure for my Zenith's terrible black level. I really hope this is it. I will definitely be removing the back panel tomorrow and trying this. Hopefully I will have good news to report afterwords. FWIW, although my black level sucks, it has not risen from when the TV was new. At best, I may have recorded a reading of 0.08 cd/m2 early in its life, but I think the MLL has held pretty steady at 0.09 cd/m2 (0.026 fL). And I've put a lot of hours on this TV (probably around 4,000). I've only noticed two things that seem to have changed as the TV has aged. Line bleed seems to be a much smaller issue with the TV than when it was new. And I believe the color temperature is much warmer now. I've had to recalibrate the TV with a much cooler color temp setting than I was originally using. Other than that, I haven't noticed any changes -- the black level and image retention have always been terrible. I may keep this TV for awhile longer if I have success adjusting the pots, but otherwise, I will probably replace it with an ST50 later this year.
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post #1149 of 1400 Old 04-04-2012, 07:59 AM
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This is my experience with a Zenith Z50PJ240 (2010 model, presumably the same as the 50PJ350). I made the following changes, in this order:

Set_Up: Clockwise from 11 o'clock to 4 o'clock (max)
Set_Down: Clockwise from 1 o'clock to 7 o'clock (max)
Vy: Counterclockwise from 6 o'clock to 5 o'clock

So far, I haven't detected any problems caused by the changes to Set_Up or Set_Down. Vy gave me misfiring pixels if turned too far counterclockwise. Set_Up and Set_Down both had a significant, and roughly equal, impact on MLL. Vy seems to have a smaller impact, but turning it further counterclockwise does improve MLL even more.

With those three adjustments, my MLL has lowered from 0.026 fL to 0.012 fL. Also, image retention is now a much smaller problem. As a test, I displayed the info bar against a black background for 80 seconds. I could very faintly see some IR afterwards. If I had done this in the past (same contrast), I would have been able to very clearly see the IR; I would have been able to read the text in the box from my normal viewing distance, even if the bar had been displayed for only a few seconds.

I'm curious about Vzb after reading some of the comments here. I feel like colors are undersaturated on my TV in dark scenes with low contrast. Could Vzb have an impact on this... without affecting brighter scenes? I measured mine with a multimeter, and it is almost exactly 95, so I'm hesitant to play with it. I thought it was probably best to leave it alone.

Another question: while I've already got this TV open, does anyone know of anything (safe) that can be done to reduce buzzing? I think I remember hearing about people with Samsung plasmas removing the back cover and doing something to reduce buzzing, so I wondered if there was anything similar that could be done to these LGs.

Anyway, this was a major improvement. I was hoping that MLL might drop below 0.01 fL, but even at 0.012, it is much better than before. And the improvement to IR is a nice bonus.
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post #1150 of 1400 Old 04-04-2012, 11:21 AM
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My LG 50pk550 mll is currently at 0.01 ftL according to my new i1 display lt probe.
Set_up is at around 12 o'clock, and set_dn 9 o'clock. I still have alot of room for pots adjustment, but pixel misfires and random pixels start taking over the screen. I drilled a pots adjustment extension that I can just reach behind tv and turn set_up if I want lower black level for movie watching. I measured a mLL of 0.07 with reasonable pixel misfires with set_up at 1 o'clock. One thing i noticed is that the bottom half of the panel is around 0.011 ftL and the upper half is around 0.08 ftL for set_up at 12 o'clock.
Looks like the black level for most ppl's 2010-2011 LGs top off at around 0.01 ftL, with a lucky few being able to get all the way to 0.05 ftL. For my 50pk550 I set the voltages at panel specs, because I didn't notice much change in mLL by adjusting the voltages numerous times.
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post #1151 of 1400 Old 04-04-2012, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicalMan View Post

This is my experience with a Zenith Z50PJ240 (2010 model, presumably the same as the 50PJ350). I made the following changes, in this order:

Set_Up: Clockwise from 11 o'clock to 4 o'clock (max)
Set_Down: Clockwise from 1 o'clock to 7 o'clock (max)
Vy: Counterclockwise from 6 o'clock to 5 o'clock

So far, I haven't detected any problems caused by the changes to Set_Up or Set_Down. Vy gave me misfiring pixels if turned too far counterclockwise. Set_Up and Set_Down both had a significant, and roughly equal, impact on MLL. Vy seems to have a smaller impact, but turning it further counterclockwise does improve MLL even more.

With those three adjustments, my MLL has lowered from 0.026 fL to 0.012 fL. Also, image retention is now a much smaller problem. As a test, I displayed the info bar against a black background for 80 seconds. I could very faintly see some IR afterwards. If I had done this in the past (same contrast), I would have been able to very clearly see the IR; I would have been able to read the text in the box from my normal viewing distance, even if the bar had been displayed for only a few seconds.

I'm curious about Vzb after reading some of the comments here. I feel like colors are undersaturated on my TV in dark scenes with low contrast. Could Vzb have an impact on this... without affecting brighter scenes? I measured mine with a multimeter, and it is almost exactly 95, so I'm hesitant to play with it. I thought it was probably best to leave it alone.

Another question: while I've already got this TV open, does anyone know of anything (safe) that can be done to reduce buzzing? I think I remember hearing about people with Samsung plasmas removing the back cover and doing something to reduce buzzing, so I wondered if there was anything similar that could be done to these LGs.

Anyway, this was a major improvement. I was hoping that MLL might drop below 0.01 fL, but even at 0.012, it is much better than before. And the improvement to IR is a nice bonus.

Hi MechanicalMan

Thanks for the feedback, another LG ehh Zenith saved from the immediate chopping block.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario

 

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post #1152 of 1400 Old 04-04-2012, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caychanh30 View Post

My LG 50pk550 mll is currently at 0.01 ftL according to my new i1 display lt probe.
Set_up is at around 12 o'clock, and set_dn 9 o'clock. I still have alot of room for pots adjustment, but pixel misfires and random pixels start taking over the screen. I drilled a pots adjustment extension that I can just reach behind tv and turn set_up if I want lower black level for movie watching. I measured a mLL of 0.07 with reasonable pixel misfires with set_up at 1 o'clock. One thing i noticed is that the bottom half of the panel is around 0.011 ftL and the upper half is around 0.08 ftL for set_up at 12 o'clock.
Looks like the black level for most ppl's 2010-2011 LGs top off at around 0.01 ftL, with a lucky few being able to get all the way to 0.05 ftL. For my 50pk550 I set the voltages at panel specs, because I didn't notice much change in mLL by adjusting the voltages numerous times.

At one point I'm really going to need to get my PX950 measured, I know for sure it's obviously a couple of steps lower than the Panasonic ST30 which around .004, how much is impossible to say without measuring.
But I'm getting the itch to move up in size and have been following the ST50 threads, I've always much preferred LG's grayscale but Panasonic appear to have made improvements there also but if the ST50s are only slightly better than the ST30 my PX950 is definitely not going anywhere.

Robert
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post #1153 of 1400 Old 04-04-2012, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicalMan View Post

Also, image retention is now a much smaller problem. As a test, I displayed the info bar against a black background for 80 seconds. I could very faintly see some IR afterwards. If I had done this in the past (same contrast), I would have been able to very clearly see the IR; I would have been able to read the text in the box from my normal viewing distance, even if the bar had been displayed for only a few seconds.

IR reduction was a nice surprise from tweaking, I almost thought it would have gotten worse with the increased contrast ratio but I'm happy to say it is now never an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicalMan View Post

I'm curious about Vzb after reading some of the comments here. I feel like colors are undersaturated on my TV in dark scenes with low contrast. Could Vzb have an impact on this... without affecting brighter scenes? I measured mine with a multimeter, and it is almost exactly 95, so I'm hesitant to play with it. I thought it was probably best to leave it alone.

The Vsb may increase the mid tone color saturation but I'd spend some more time watching movies in a dark environment before going that route.

Robert
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post #1154 of 1400 Old 04-04-2012, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

At one point I'm really going to need to get my PX950 measured, I know for sure it's obviously a couple of steps lower than the Panasonic ST30 which around .004, how much is impossible to say without measuring.
But I'm getting the itch to move up in size and have been following the ST50 threads, I've always much preferred LG's grayscale but Panasonic appear to have made improvements there also but if the ST50s are only slightly better than the ST30 my PX950 is definitely not going anywhere.

You really should get someone to measure it or DIY with the D3, ST30s have ranged from 0.006 to 0.008 ftL in all the pro calibrations I've seen (the GT30 can get down to 0.004-0.005 ftL and the VT30 0.002 ftL). I would be very surprised if your set was below 0.005 ftL.

Looks like the ST50 could hit 0.002 ftL which will beat both of our tweaked sets by at least a factor of 2. My set runs between 0.0048 ftL and 0.0055 ftL depending on how I prep the patterns.
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post #1155 of 1400 Old 04-04-2012, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

IR reduction was a nice surprise from tweaking, I almost thought it would have gotten worse with the increased contrast ratio but I'm happy to say it is now never an issue.

I'd heard that bad IR accompanied rising blacks on the older Panasonics, so I had hoped that lowering the MLL on these LGs would also reduce IR. I'm not too bothered by IR, but it was very bad on my TV before this. For example, when watching MLB.TV, the text that appears on the screen during commercial breaks would have previously resulted in noticeable IR during the game. I'm sure that won't happen when I'm watching tonight.
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post #1156 of 1400 Old 04-04-2012, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

You really should get someone to measure it or DIY with the D3, ST30s have ranged from 0.006 to 0.008 ftL in all the pro calibrations I've seen (the GT30 can get down to 0.004-0.005 ftL and the VT30 0.002 ftL). I would be very surprised if your set was below 0.005 ftL.

Looks like the ST50 could hit 0.002 ftL which will beat both of our tweaked sets by at least a factor of 2. My set runs between 0.0048 ftL and 0.0055 ftL depending on how I prep the patterns.

Hi zoyd

I'm sure it must be close to the GT30 as the difference is fairly obvious by eye with the ST30, and as I mentioned elsewhere the ST50 is looking to be a reasonable priced winner especially if it's around 0.002 and with improved color.

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post #1157 of 1400 Old 04-04-2012, 06:02 PM
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IMO, it's worth owning a decent colorimeter, even if it's not the most accurate in the world. I bought a used DTP-94 a couple years ago, and it's probably the best $45 I ever spent. It paid for itself just with the creation of an ICC profile for my cheap VA LCD monitor, which would be a virtually worthless display without a profile (and is an absolute bargain when used with a decent profile). And it has really been very useful will all of my displays, although I seem to have had better luck using it on LCDs than on CRTs or plasmas. Anyway, it is great to have -- invaluable, really, though I obviously won't suggest that it is perfectly accurate.
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post #1158 of 1400 Old 04-07-2012, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Hi Turrican

Scrutinizing my two brothers ST50's, 50" and 60" IMHO they are not really that much better than my PX950, it's also being discussed frequently with the Samsungs.
How obvious the dithering depends on your viewing distance but if your too close it can be easily seen, and yes it's not pretty, I'm fine at 10'-12'.
By the way how is your black level holding up since your last tweak, as I mentioned above mine appears to have lowered slightly(gotten better) but at some point I really need to get it measured.

I sit at 1.79 metres.

I didn't measure my PK350 for a long time, but my eyes tell me, that it gotten blacker but at the same time I got pixelmissfires in green, red and black, so I retuned Set_Up.
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post #1159 of 1400 Old 04-08-2012, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

I sit at 1.79 metres.

I didn't measure my PK350 for a long time, but my eyes tell me, that it gotten blacker but at the same time I got pixelmissfires in green, red and black, so I retuned Set_Up.

1.79 m (5.87Ft) is fairly close, more immersive, but at that distance I'm sure excessive dithering and pixel misfires are fairly obvious even on the......... Panasonics.

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post #1160 of 1400 Old 04-12-2012, 02:46 PM
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Hi. A little update. Tonight I thought I should try to involve Set_Dn. Got from 4 to 6, but got alot of missfires. turned it back a bit, but noticed missfires in total black. So I chose to leave it at stock (4).

But after this I ran a Brightness pattern (gray 17+ blinking), I noticed that 17-21 didn't blink, it took quite a while for the set to turn of green, like it dimmed down but before it could turn it off it shine back up (the blinking). But it seemed to only be in 24hz mode. And if I increase brightness one step and crush black in 17,18 then the rest blinks as it should. I also tried to set every pot to default, same issue.

Anyone heard this before? Going to try and burn the pattern on a disk and run it in the bluray player, so it's no htpc issue.
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post #1161 of 1400 Old 04-14-2012, 05:43 PM
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Hi. A little update. Tonight I thought I should try to involve Set_Dn. Got from 4 to 6, but got alot of missfires. turned it back a bit, but noticed missfires in total black. So I chose to leave it at stock (4).

But after this I ran a Brightness pattern (gray 17+ blinking), I noticed that 17-21 didn't blink, it took quite a while for the set to turn of green, like it dimmed down but before it could turn it off it shine back up (the blinking). But it seemed to only be in 24hz mode. And if I increase brightness one step and crush black in 17,18 then the rest blinks as it should. I also tried to set every pot to default, same issue.

Anyone heard this before? Going to try and burn the pattern on a disk and run it in the bluray player, so it's no htpc issue.

You've probably already made irreversible damages.

LG has engineers and professionals doing those things at the factory, and the settings are the way they are for a reason. Plasma's are very fragile and complicated, i don't think any average Joe can just open his plasma display and randomly turn internal screws without doing permanent damages.

Yeah yeah i know "i bought my TV and i'm free to do whatever i want with it", true, but don't start blaming LG and be a cry baby if your TV starts dying.

Those panels are set the way they are because they obviously have technical limitations, and will just die earlier if they're pushed upon their factory settings (those limits are there for a reason, not to scam you or any other conspiracy theory ).

And yes, just in case you were asking yourself : misfiring pixels aren't right, something is obviously wrong (misfiring pixels can often be seen on dying plasmas, there you go mate).

Deeper blacks by f*cking up your TV and shortening considerably it's lifespan, sounds cool ...

I wonder how many idiots fell into this ...
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post #1162 of 1400 Old 04-14-2012, 07:11 PM
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You've probably already made irreversible damages.

LG has engineers and professionals doing those things at the factory, and the settings are the way they are for a reason. Plasma's are very fragile and complicated, i don't think any average Joe can just open his plasma display and randomly turn internal screws without doing permanent damages.

Yeah yeah i know "i bought my TV and i'm free to do whatever i want with it", true, but don't start blaming LG and be a cry baby if your TV starts dying.

Those panels are set the way they are because they obviously have technical limitations, and will just die earlier if they're pushed upon their factory settings (those limits are there for a reason, not to scam you or any other conspiracy theory ).

And yes, just in case you were asking yourself : misfiring pixels aren't right, something is obviously wrong (misfiring pixels can often be seen on dying plasmas, there you go mate).

Deeper blacks by f*cking up your TV and shortening considerably it's lifespan, sounds cool ...

I wonder how many idiots fell into this ...

So instead of actually trying to be helpful, you'd rather damn the people who've actually tried this tweak? You have obviously not tried the tweak yourself, nor have you read the thread as your post is filled with inaccurate information. Why even bother opening this thread, then?

The lack of maturity around AVS is remarkable at times.

Fade, I have not experienced anything like what you mentioned. Have you tried calibrating since the tweak?

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post #1163 of 1400 Old 04-14-2012, 10:16 PM
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I wonder how many idiots fell into this ...

Welcome to AVS new guy.

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post #1164 of 1400 Old 04-15-2012, 04:26 AM
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blah, blah, blah... it's the end of the world... I'm smarter than you... blah, blah, blah

This is just as ignorant as the laughable "don't enter the service menu, or you will kill your TV" nonsense that I have been reading for years. Complete idiocy. And even if it was true (which it isn't) that lowering my MLL by >50% was going to significantly decrease the lifespan of my TV, I wouldn't care.
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post #1165 of 1400 Old 04-15-2012, 05:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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You've probably already made irreversible damages.

LG has engineers and professionals doing those things at the factory, and the settings are the way they are for a reason. Plasma's are very fragile and complicated, i don't think any average Joe can just open his plasma display and randomly turn internal screws without doing permanent damages.

Yeah yeah i know "i bought my TV and i'm free to do whatever i want with it", true, but don't start blaming LG and be a cry baby if your TV starts dying.

Those panels are set the way they are because they obviously have technical limitations, and will just die earlier if they're pushed upon their factory settings (those limits are there for a reason, not to scam you or any other conspiracy theory ).

And yes, just in case you were asking yourself : misfiring pixels aren't right, something is obviously wrong (misfiring pixels can often be seen on dying plasmas, there you go mate).

Deeper blacks by f*cking up your TV and shortening considerably it's lifespan, sounds cool ...

I wonder how many idiots fell into this ...

Thanks Brody

We love deconstructive criticism but for the time being we'll ignore the sucker punches.
Just remember manufacturers are not God they're people just like you and me, long live the tinkerer!

Robert
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post #1166 of 1400 Old 04-15-2012, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brody76 View Post

LG has engineers and professionals doing those things at the factory, and the settings are the way they are for a reason.

Yes, and the earth is flat.

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post #1167 of 1400 Old 04-15-2012, 09:53 AM
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I just couldn´t take it anymore. It was either trying this tweak or throwing the set out through the window. I only adjusted the "set up" knob but my god what a differance that made!

Suddenly it´s a joy to watch this set

One thing: I have 4 screws that is longer than the other and 2 that is shorter. Not counting the ones with smaller screw threads. I didn´t take notice of this when i dismounted the back cover

Anyone know exactly what screws belongs where? (LG 50PK350)

Thanks
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post #1168 of 1400 Old 04-15-2012, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ywap;21909360[QUOTE=Ywap View Post

Suddenly it´s a joy to watch this set

One thing: I have 4 screws that is longer than the other and 2 that is shorter. Not counting the ones with smaller screw threads. I didn´t take notice of this when i dismounted the back cover

Anyone know exactly what screws belongs where? (LG 50PK350)

Thanks

Hi Ywap

This might help also you just may not see the holes from which they came.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emig5m View Post

As for someone mentioning that they drew a diagram for where the screws went, I just laid mine out on the floor in the pattern that they came off...



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post #1169 of 1400 Old 04-15-2012, 02:32 PM
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The lack of maturity around AVS is remarkable at times.

I'm not the one opening a $600 plasma panel to randomly turn some screws.

If my opinion reeks immaturity to you, then how should I qualify your behavior ? Being extremely irresponsible ? Opening a plasma panel while it's powered, considering the high voltage running into it must be more "mature" to you I guess.

To me, it's totally stupid and utterly dangerous.

And for your information, entering a service menu while you don't know what you're doing can damage your TV (for the peoples thinking otherwise, I dare them to enter their service menu and randomly turn some stuff on or off and see the result, might be funny).

Quote:


And even if it was true (which it isn't) that lowering my MLL by >50% was going to significantly decrease the lifespan of my TV, I wouldn't care.

No my friend, THIS is complete idiocy to me.
You obviously have money to waste, a lot of money.
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post #1170 of 1400 Old 04-15-2012, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brody76 View Post

I'm not the one opening a $600 plasma panel to randomly turn some screws.

If my opinion reeks immaturity to you, then how should I qualify your behavior ? Being extremely irresponsible ? Opening a plasma panel while it's powered, considering the high voltage running into it must be more "mature" to you I guess.

To me, it's totally stupid and utterly dangerous.

And for your information, entering a service menu while you don't know what you're doing can damage your TV (for the peoples thinking otherwise, I dare them to enter their service menu and randomly turn some stuff on or off and see the result, might be funny).



No my friend, THIS is complete idiocy to me.
You obviously have money to waste, a lot of money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweaking

"Tweaking
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tweaking refers to fine-tuning or adjusting a complex system, usually an electronic device. Tweaks are any small modifications intended to improve a system.

In electronics, it is a synonym for "trimming." Analog circuit boards often have small potentiometers or other components on them that are used to calibrate or adjust the board as a service procedure: the small insulated screwdriver used to turn them is often called a "tweaker."
"

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

For the last few months there have been a few brave individuals who have begun the task of technically improving the black levels on their LG plasmas by tweaking a few pots on the actual boards inside the sets so I believe a dedicated thread should be started.
Mind you, all tweaks are at your own risk, will void your warranty and you could be exposed to lethal voltages, but the procedure could be rewarding.
And of course AVSFORUMS nor the posters can be held legally responsible for any mishaps, panel misbehavior and non-reversible disasters, proceed at your own risk.

Hi Brody

We live in a creative world, we watch, listen, modify, re-arrange, invent, tear apart, re-assemble, sometimes it is a leap of faith in discovering or experiencing something new or looking at life from different angles. Some like to dive right in or decide to sit on the side lines.
The tweaks performed here are not random, we have discussed over and over the do and do nots, shared our experiences from experimenting and garnered the results which have for the majority been extremely positive.

Sorry if I have spent the better part of my sixty years taking creative and sometimes random risks as an artist, musician and hobbyist to learn new and productive ways of doing things.
Maybe Jimmy never should have played the National Anthem the way he did over forty years ago, he might be alive today, but we would all be a lot poorer.

Robert
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