LG Plasma Panel tweaks for better blacks. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1408 Old 11-18-2011, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by susancts View Post

I thought that black levels on Plasmas are already quite good and it is the LCDs that need some tweaking. This thread is an eye opener but I would still think twice or may be thrice before opening my Plasma apart.

i'm pretty sure the black level has gotten significantly worse on my plasma since new. At 2500 hours, it could not show blacks at all... letterbox in movies showed light gray with lights out. Now its definitely much improved and looks black, in bright scenes it even appears to somewhat blend in with the bezel. Even my LCD was showing better blacks. With this mod, the blacks are back. Not kuro black/pq wise but a marked improvement and worth the trouble of taking all the 30 screws off.
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post #92 of 1408 Old 11-18-2011, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by susancts View Post

I thought that black levels on Plasmas are already quite good and it is the LCDs that need some tweaking. This thread is an eye opener but I would still think twice or may be thrice before opening my Plasma apart.

This depends on what you're looking at. The LG probably is better than most low end LCDs, some are better than others on top of it.

If compared to higher end LEDs, or a Samsung or Panasonic, you begin to notice it is brighter.

Don't think about buying a Kuro. In my terms of thinking when I found one at a local store, I was like "great I can buy a higher end TV for my bedroom for the cost of a Zenith". After viewing it, then the LG/Zeniths are quite gray in comparison. If you're watching bright sports content you don't notice it quite as much but if you're watching movies it becomes really apparent.

When you get to the point the set is out of warranty the choice is up to you.

Actually, done properly, it might increase the lifespan of the TV. You're running the boards and panel at lesser voltage which is why they're darker looking.
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post #93 of 1408 Old 11-18-2011, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatse View Post

i'm pretty sure the black level has gotten significantly worse on my plasma since new. At 2500 hours, it could not show blacks at all... letterbox in movies showed light gray with lights out. Now its definitely much improved and looks black, in bright scenes it even appears to somewhat blend in with the bezel.

Interesting. I have a PK950 too, but it's pretty new. I'm not that disappointed by the blacks, not yet anyway.

Would you say that the blacks you have now are comparable to when the TV was new?
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post #94 of 1408 Old 11-18-2011, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Voz View Post

Interesting. I have a PK950 too, but it's pretty new. I'm not that disappointed by the blacks, not yet anyway.

Would you say that the blacks you have now are comparable to when the TV was new?

I don't remember how it looked new but the blacks were horrible before the mod. Watched the new harry potter and remembering how bad it looked because all the blacks were so glowing gray as it was crushing all detail. This tv is calibrated but it could not show blacks at all and my lcd was far superior when it came to dark scenes. Now I would say its on par if not slightly better. Like I said on the few posts back, thats just a side effect. I appreciate that the picture is alot less noisy that it looks much clear in all scenes not just in the dark.
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post #95 of 1408 Old 11-18-2011, 12:35 PM
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I have the 60PX950, and while the color is fantastic, the blacks have never been very good, and there has always been a lot of noise when displaying blacks. I stumbled across this thread, and can't wait to try this out! First off, I have a couple questions:
1) Is there any negative (currently known) side affects of doing this
2) How does this affect shadow detail- not worth getting the darkest blacks if there is no shadow detail
3) Do I have to lay the tv down to do this (only wondering because I believe you have to remove 4 screws by the stand, and I don't want the TV falling off...
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post #96 of 1408 Old 11-18-2011, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by avfanatic1 View Post

2) How does this affect shadow detail- not worth getting the darkest blacks if there is no shadow detail
3) Do I have to lay the tv down to do this (only wondering because I believe you have to remove 4 screws by the stand, and I don't want the TV falling off...

If you read this (relatively short) thread you'll find the answer to those two questions. In posts #64 and #67 you can read about shadow detail and in #6 you can see a TV standing up.
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post #97 of 1408 Old 11-18-2011, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voz View Post

If you read this (relatively short) thread you'll find the answer to those two questions. In posts #64 and #67 you can read about shadow detail and in #6 you can see a TV standing up.

Ok thanks. But for the TV on the stand- i have the PX950 and just wondering what is really holding the tv on the stand- from the picture I can't tell whether it should be safe taking off the 5 screws near the bottom or if you have to lay the TV down, remove the back, and then put the screws back. Just making sure since I don't want a $$$$ TV breaking from falling over...
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post #98 of 1408 Old 11-18-2011, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avfanatic1 View Post

Ok thanks. But for the TV on the stand- i have the PX950 and just wondering what is really holding the tv on the stand- from the picture I can't tell whether it should be safe taking off the 5 screws near the bottom or if you have to lay the TV down, remove the back, and then put the screws back. Just making sure since I don't want a $$$$ TV breaking from falling over...

My post #6 shows the tv opened right from the stand. The panel piece that pops off is separate from the stand.
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post #99 of 1408 Old 11-18-2011, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatse View Post

i'm pretty sure the black level has gotten significantly worse on my plasma since new. At 2500 hours, it could not show blacks at all... letterbox in movies showed light gray with lights out.

In know that behaviour.

It seems that LG stole the Rising Blacks from Panasonic.

My german PK350 (aka the US PK550) started at 0.058 cd/m2 (the same blacklevel my old S10-plasma achieved after its first voltagebump).

After 200 hours it jumped to 0.068 cd/m2

After 1000 hours it jumped to 0.127 cd/m2(!!!)

Which fell to 0.117 cd/m2 20 hours later and to 0.107 cd/m2 another 20 hours later. It stayed that way for the next 200 hours. At that point, even scenes shot in the daylight on Blu-ray were grey with very obvious grey cinemascope bars.

That was, when I grabbed my screwdriver and started tickling with the pots. I had it down to 0.012 cd/m2 ANSI with Set_Up and Set_Dn only (could not measure On/Off, cause mll was too low for that), but after 2500 hours it risen again to 0.040 cd/m2 on/off.

I grabbed the screwdriver again and experimented with VSC and Vy and got the set back to 0.012 cd/m2

A couple of hours (maybe another 2000 or so) the TV jumped again to 0.025 cd/m2 (on/off).

I was then, that I started again, this time with a different approach with Va and Vs and included VZB.

Since then I'm back to 0.012 cd/m2 and i really hope, that the voltagebump at 4500 hours was the last one, cause, if the TV would have another rising blacks-step in its sleeve I couldn't defend myself anymore.

It's funny, how the perspective can change. In the year 2009 I was happy with the blacks of my S10 plasma out of the box (0.039 to 0.036 cd/m2 and ANSI was 0.080 cd/m2!) but now it would suck, if I had to watch Blu-rays with this kind of blacklevel again.

I could even use a deeper blacklevel, that I have right now.

Prof. Dr. Turrican M.D.
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post #100 of 1408 Old 11-18-2011, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yrly View Post

This might be possible on some Samsungs too. I had fixed a Samsung HPT4254 circa mid 2007 I bought at a garage sale and gave it to my son for his bedroom that had a busted power supply. I always thought it looked too bright, and I tried tinkering with it in the service menu, but was never able to achieve what I considered a good black level, and having had a Vizio from the same general era, I figured better was possible. I speculated that the set's firmware had adjusted to compensate for the aging of the panel, the new power supply, having more power due to whatever aging of the other power supply, put out more and thus the black leel suffered.

I went through the ervice manual of the D7000 plasma and unfortunately the pots seem not to be there anymore.

But maybe the service manual does not tell everything?

Would be cool, if one owner of this year's Samsung plasmas would open it, to look for pots.



@noise with LG-plasmas
Aside of the clumpy pwm noise in the grey shades near black, which we can't get rid of, I noticed as Goatse, that the whole rest of the picture is more clean after the tweak.

Blu-rays like "Troll Hunter" which has been shot digital, looks perfect and on the other hand movies like "Somewhere" are rendered very accurate with all it's grain from the source.

Prof. Dr. Turrican M.D.
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post #101 of 1408 Old 11-18-2011, 05:53 PM
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Please forgive my ignorance, but I am both immensely intrigued and immensely scared crapless about this.

1. Will it (or should it) work on a 50pk540???

2. What is noise? How will I notice it?

3. What is pixelation?

Thanks and seriously thinking of doing this!
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post #102 of 1408 Old 11-18-2011, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

In know that behaviour.

It seems that LG stole the Rising Blacks from Panasonic.

My german PK350 (aka the US PK550) started at 0.058 cd/m2 (the same blacklevel my old S10-plasma achieved after its first voltagebump).

After 200 hours it jumped to 0.068 cd/m2

After 1000 hours it jumped to 0.127 cd/m2(!!!)

Which fell to 0.117 cd/m2 20 hours later and to 0.107 cd/m2 another 20 hours later. It stayed that way for the next 200 hours. At that point, even scenes shot in the daylight on Blu-ray were grey with very obvious grey cinemascope bars.

That was, when I grabbed my screwdriver and started tickling with the pots. I had it down to 0.012 cd/m2 ANSI with Set_Up and Set_Dn only (could not measure On/Off, cause mll was too low for that), but after 2500 hours it risen again to 0.040 cd/m2 on/off.

I grabbed the screwdriver again and experimented with VSC and Vy and got the set back to 0.012 cd/m2

A couple of hours (maybe another 2000 or so) the TV jumped again to 0.025 cd/m2 (on/off).

I was then, that I started again, this time with a different approach with Va and Vs and included VZB.

Since then I'm back to 0.012 cd/m2 and i really hope, that the voltagebump at 4500 hours was the last one, cause, if the TV would have another rising blacks-step in its sleeve I couldn't defend myself anymore.

It's funny, how the perspective can change. In the year 2009 I was happy with the blacks of my S10 plasma out of the box (0.039 to 0.036 cd/m2 and ANSI was 0.080 cd/m2!) but now it would suck, if I had to watch Blu-rays with this kind of blacklevel again.

I could even use a deeper blacklevel, that I have right now.

Turrican4D,

Since we share the same set (mine is a PK550), would you mind sharring the order you adjusted the pots and what you looked for on the screen. 0.012 cd/m2 is 0.004 ftl. That is VERY good! My blacks are much better now, better than when it was new, but I would like to get the maximum out of it if I can.

I think you are right about the rising blacks. I noticed mine seemeing lighter for the past few months.
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post #103 of 1408 Old 11-19-2011, 06:32 AM
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you telling me its gonna keep on getting lighter?? =(

Haven't touched the VS and VA. Maybe I'll mess with those one of these days.
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post #104 of 1408 Old 11-19-2011, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

In know that behaviour.

It seems that LG stole the Rising Blacks from Panasonic.

My german PK350 (aka the US PK550) started at 0.058 cd/m2 (the same blacklevel my old S10-plasma achieved after its first voltagebump).

After 200 hours it jumped to 0.068 cd/m2

After 1000 hours it jumped to 0.127 cd/m2(!!!)

Which fell to 0.117 cd/m2 20 hours later and to 0.107 cd/m2 another 20 hours later. It stayed that way for the next 200 hours. At that point, even scenes shot in the daylight on Blu-ray were grey with very obvious grey cinemascope bars.

That was, when I grabbed my screwdriver and started tickling with the pots. I had it down to 0.012 cd/m2 ANSI with Set_Up and Set_Dn only (could not measure On/Off, cause mll was too low for that), but after 2500 hours it risen again to 0.040 cd/m2 on/off.

I grabbed the screwdriver again and experimented with VSC and Vy and got the set back to 0.012 cd/m2

A couple of hours (maybe another 2000 or so) the TV jumped again to 0.025 cd/m2 (on/off).

I was then, that I started again, this time with a different approach with Va and Vs and included VZB.

Since then I'm back to 0.012 cd/m2 and i really hope, that the voltagebump at 4500 hours was the last one, cause, if the TV would have another rising blacks-step in its sleeve I couldn't defend myself anymore.

It's funny, how the perspective can change. In the year 2009 I was happy with the blacks of my S10 plasma out of the box (0.039 to 0.036 cd/m2 and ANSI was 0.080 cd/m2!) but now it would suck, if I had to watch Blu-rays with this kind of blacklevel again.

I could even use a deeper blacklevel, that I have right now.

Sounds like fluctuating voltage from your power outlet or the power supply on your set is playing games with you.
I have 4 LG plasmas, 2008, 2009, 2010 and my PX950 from this year all of which all seem quite stable, haven't noticed any rise in black levels but hard to tell without measuring.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #105 of 1408 Old 11-19-2011, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Sounds like fluctuating voltage from your power outlet or the power supply on your set is playing games with you.
I have 4 LG plasmas, 2008, 2009, 2010 and my PX950 from this year all of which all seem quite stable, haven't noticed any rise in black levels but hard to tell without measuring.

So you can see why I'm keen on the pot adjustments, all four have excellent overall color and grey-scale but except for the PX950 the other three would greatly benefit from tweaking the MLL to lower levels.

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #106 of 1408 Old 11-19-2011, 10:22 AM
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This sounds like a fun mod to try! Can I do the pot adjustments using a regular metal screwdriver or do I really need to buy one of those plastic ones?
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post #107 of 1408 Old 11-19-2011, 10:55 AM
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a normal small screwdriver with a plastic handle will do
BUT do not touch any metal or
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post #108 of 1408 Old 11-19-2011, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rb1213 View Post

a normal small screwdriver with a plastic handle will do
BUT do not touch any metal or

I probably shouldn't try this mod after drinking some espresso...shaky hands.

Anyway I am gonna go and try this now with my PK540. Looks like I may only need to adjust Set-Up all the way clockwise and then do some small tweaks to Vy, if needed, right?
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post #109 of 1408 Old 11-19-2011, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehgz1 View Post


I probably shouldn't try this mod after drinking some espresso...shaky hands.

Anyway I am gonna go and try this now with my PK540. Looks like I may only need to adjust Set-Up all the way clockwise and then do some small tweaks to Vy, if needed, right?

Please post as youre done, as I have exact same TV.
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post #110 of 1408 Old 11-19-2011, 01:23 PM
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Well I just got done doing the adjustment on my PK540 and the black level is darker now. All I have done, so far, is to adjust Set_Up all the way clockwise and I also moved VY a hair to the left. I am watching the West Side Story blu-ray right now and I can clearly see a difference in the black levels. The black bars are darker than before and overall the picture is great. Although, to be fair, I always thought my PK540 had great image quality, especially when watching blu-ray in 24p. The hardest part of this mod is taking off the back panel!
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post #111 of 1408 Old 11-19-2011, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

In know that behaviour.

It seems that LG stole the Rising Blacks from Panasonic.

My german PK350 (aka the US PK550) started at 0.058 cd/m2 (the same blacklevel my old S10-plasma achieved after its first voltagebump).

After 200 hours it jumped to 0.068 cd/m2

After 1000 hours it jumped to 0.127 cd/m2(!!!)

Which fell to 0.117 cd/m2 20 hours later and to 0.107 cd/m2 another 20 hours later. It stayed that way for the next 200 hours. At that point, even scenes shot in the daylight on Blu-ray were grey with very obvious grey cinemascope bars.

That was, when I grabbed my screwdriver and started tickling with the pots. I had it down to 0.012 cd/m2 ANSI with Set_Up and Set_Dn only (could not measure On/Off, cause mll was too low for that), but after 2500 hours it risen again to 0.040 cd/m2 on/off.

I grabbed the screwdriver again and experimented with VSC and Vy and got the set back to 0.012 cd/m2

A couple of hours (maybe another 2000 or so) the TV jumped again to 0.025 cd/m2 (on/off).

I was then, that I started again, this time with a different approach with Va and Vs and included VZB.

Since then I'm back to 0.012 cd/m2 and i really hope, that the voltagebump at 4500 hours was the last one, cause, if the TV would have another rising blacks-step in its sleeve I couldn't defend myself anymore.

It's funny, how the perspective can change. In the year 2009 I was happy with the blacks of my S10 plasma out of the box (0.039 to 0.036 cd/m2 and ANSI was 0.080 cd/m2!) but now it would suck, if I had to watch Blu-rays with this kind of blacklevel again.

I could even use a deeper blacklevel, that I have right now.

Are you telling me you now have an LG with better than Pansonic black levels? Why are LG not doing this on their sets?
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post #112 of 1408 Old 11-19-2011, 07:03 PM
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I'm sure this all plays down to what is a "safe" level on LGs part. Its probably easier to find a safe level that works with every set, as opposed to lowering it and having problems in handfuls of sets due to tolerances differences with parts which I'm sure they multisource then slap on those boards, and panels which you know they're churning out in droves if they're selling 50" Zenith 1080p sets for $600. Obviously it would be labor intensive to tweak every single set, so they just use the setting that works and ship em. They might do some tweaking to the higher end ones but on these lower end consumer models it is take it or leave it.
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post #113 of 1408 Old 11-20-2011, 01:32 AM
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Oh I see what you mean, even so I assume then that Panasonic use a lower threshold and hence achieve better blacks because of it? Maybe this is why they might be having the issues (fbr. fb's etc)?
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post #114 of 1408 Old 11-20-2011, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leedebs View Post

Oh I see what you mean, even so I assume then that Panasonic use a lower threshold and hence achieve better blacks because of it? Maybe this is why they might be having the issues (fbr. fb's etc)?

That would be the general consensus forming, and not to forget reported green blobs, green tint and ruddy flesh tones, but I have to admit that the 2011 Panasonics are looking much better color wise but in my opinion still fall behind the LG in that department. So if we can indeed match them in MLL with a slight adjustment the LGs could definitely be contenders for the best overall picture quality.

Robert
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post #115 of 1408 Old 11-20-2011, 10:55 AM
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How about the LG 50PZ750, same or similar adjustments?
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post #116 of 1408 Old 11-20-2011, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iketech View Post

How about the LG 50PZ750, same or similar adjustments?

Again almost every LG plasma made is listed here.
http://136.166.4.200/SubPages/Directview_PDP.htm


Then click on you're model number and the appropriate training or service manual to see each individual board layout, the three main pots set_up, set_dn etc. are on the Sus-boards, voltage adjustments are on d the power supply board.

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post #117 of 1408 Old 11-20-2011, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Again almost every LG plasma made is listed here.
http://136.166.4.200/SubPages/Directview_PDP.htm


Then click on you're model number and the appropriate training or service manual to see each individual board layout, the three main pots set_up, set_dn etc. are on the Sus-boards, voltage adjustments are on d the power supply board.

Mine is a European model 42PJ650, the only similar model I can see is the PJ350 so could I use that
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post #118 of 1408 Old 11-20-2011, 02:12 PM
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I had to go and alter my settings today after noticing red pixels on the screen, especially when starting cold and also in color test patterns. Now I have VY set to the 1 o'clock position which, was the default setting. Previously I had it set to around the 11 o'clock position. I also have SET_UP at the 1 o'clock position. Previously I had it set all the way clockwise. The default position for SET_UP, on my PK540, was the 11 o'clock position. I have no pixel misfires and the black levels still look nice and dark to me. I guess I will keep these settings for now, but I may try changing SET_DN in the future to see if that has any effect on black levels. Also my PK540 doesn't have a VS pot but I did see one labeled VSC. Is that the same thing?? Not sure what that one does and I haven't tried to change it.
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post #119 of 1408 Old 11-20-2011, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ehgz1 View Post

I had to go and alter my settings today after noticing red pixels on the screen, especially when starting cold and also in color test patterns. Now I have VY set to the 1 o'clock position which, was the default setting. Previously I had it set to around the 11 o'clock position. I also have SET_UP at the 1 o'clock position. Previously I had it set all the way clockwise. The default position for SET_UP, on my PK540, was the 11 o'clock position. I have no pixel misfires and the black levels still look nice and dark to me. I guess I will keep these settings for now, but I may try changing SET_DN in the future to see if that has any effect on black levels. Also my PK540 doesn't have a VS pot but I did see one labeled VSC. Is that the same thing?? Not sure what that one does and I haven't tried to change it.

With my PK550, I noticed the pixels with the SET_UP turned clockwise all the way. I had to back off it (while switching between mostly black and color bar screens) till I did not have them. I did notice a touch more black when it was turned all the way clockwise then where it ended up being set at (but could not leave it at that setting due to pixel misfires present when switching back and forth with the screens). I believe my SET_UP is around 2 o'clock now. My Vy was tweeked just a little counter-clockwise. The only difference I noticed adjusting SET_DN was white sparkles, not really and blacker blacks. I left it where it was set at. I did turn my set off and let it cool down a couple hours then turned it back on to make sure there were no pixel misfires before reattaching the rear panel. I am still thrilled with the results of this mod!
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post #120 of 1408 Old 11-20-2011, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Remember the LG training manual (you all read it before starting, right), they recommend a 10 minute warm up before any adjustments.
Hopefully tomorrow I'll have time to take a stab at one of my sets, probably start with the PG25 (2008) which has the highest MLL, also I'll likely use a scope to see if the wave forums correlate with what I see on the panel.
Yesterday spent a few more hours with my brothers Panasonic ST30 which in a few forums was mentioned as being slightly better than the GT and VT30s; comparing it to my PX950 there was just a slight difference in black levels so it should be in interesting if I can get the PX a bit lower than the ST, and with LG's superior color we should have a winner on our hands, I hope.

Robert
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