Official Panasonic 2012 Lineup and Information Thread [No Price Talk] - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 1640 Old 02-29-2012, 11:48 AM
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You guys think that I can finally replace my 8G Pioneer Kuro, with one of the 2012 Panasonic's, and achieve (at least) the same picture quality?

It's all speculation right now, I know

I'll wait for OLED prices to go down, so this would a nice TV until then, I hope.

/Martin
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post #272 of 1640 Old 02-29-2012, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by sfsteve View Post

I saw that the comparison page says the vt50 has "96hz playback of 24p". Can someone tell me what that means?

4 X 24 = 96. Just means it will properly and smoothly play 24p material (Films shot at 24 frames per second), by repeating each frame 4 times. At least that's the theory.
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post #273 of 1640 Old 02-29-2012, 11:53 AM
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Surprised I didn't notice this before (and haven't seen it mentioned here).

Is it trued that the ST50 panel uses the Infinite Black Pro panel that was only used in this year's VT30 TVs?

If that information is correct it's a really good reason to pay the difference between the 2012 and the marked down 2011 sets. Isn't it?

Edit: Btw, I'd take Plasma TV Buying Guide's info with a grain of salt. They make frequent errors. I remember them saying the S30 (not the ST) had the Infinite Black panel.

Already this year I see them saying the GT50 has the Infinite Black Ultra, which is only in the VT models.

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post #274 of 1640 Old 02-29-2012, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveZ06 View Post

I have the same problem with Panasonic plasmas. I don't really understand this. I see more of this "rainbow effect" on a Panasonic than I do on an LG, or Samsung. I'm hoping with the new drive system, and overall panel redesign, the effect is lessened. I actually made a thread about this issue a while back.

It's so weird. I had to take back a DLP because I realized that I suffered from the dreaded RBE. Than I get this new Panny and I'm experiencing the same thing (though not as bad).

It has something to do with our eyes. No one else here at my place sees it. I also see bright halos around lights at night. Cataracts and Glaucoma are knocking on my door, lol.
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post #275 of 1640 Old 02-29-2012, 12:39 PM
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I get the same thing on Panasonic plasmas - just like the RBE but green or yellow. I don't see it on LG or Samsung sets as much.

=Tommy v2=
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post #276 of 1640 Old 02-29-2012, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorM View Post

Surprised I didn't notice this before (and haven't seen it mentioned here).

Is it trued that the ST50 panel uses the Infinite Black Pro panel that was only used in this year's VT30 TVs?

If that information is correct it's a really good reason to pay the difference between the 2012 and the marked down 2011 sets. Isn't it?

Edit: Btw, I'd take Plasma TV Buying Guide's info with a grain of salt. They make frequent errors. I remember them saying the S30 (not the ST) had the Infinite Black panel.

Already this year I see them saying the GT50 has the Infinite Black Ultra, which is only in the VT models.

So does this Infinite Black Pro panel reduce the glare? I thought I read that somewhere? I had also heard that this panel is going to be on the ST50's...

-Guru
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post #277 of 1640 Old 02-29-2012, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

I haven't yet found a chart that shows the specifications and features of all three xx50 models on one page. I'm having a tough time deciding which to focus my attention on, and I have a big blank wall right now that needs to be filled soon. Any links to single page comparisons would be most appreciated.

TIA.

Look up the UT50 on amazon, scroll down there is a model by model comparison there

65VT60(Calibrated by Chad B)
55ST60(Calibrated by Chunon)
Darbee DVP5000
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast/I1Pro/I1D3
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
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post #278 of 1640 Old 02-29-2012, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorM View Post

Surprised I didn't notice this before (and haven't seen it mentioned here).

Is it trued that the ST50 panel uses the Infinite Black Pro panel that was only used in this year's VT30 TVs?

If that information is correct it's a really good reason to pay the difference between the 2012 and the marked down 2011 sets. Isn't it?

Edit: Btw, I'd take Plasma TV Buying Guide's info with a grain of salt. They make frequent errors. I remember them saying the S30 (not the ST) had the Infinite Black panel.

Already this year I see them saying the GT50 has the Infinite Black Ultra, which is only in the VT models.

Well, considering 2012 ST has faster phosphors, deeper blacks, higher brightness, improved filter, better speakers, and better overall design; I would say, yes. If the ST series maintains its low input lag, and I don't end up seeing the "rainbow effect" from their previous models; I'll most likely pick one up this year.
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post #279 of 1640 Old 02-29-2012, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveZ06 View Post


Well, considering 2012 ST has faster phosphors, deeper blacks, higher brightness, improved filter, better speakers, and better overall design; I would say, yes. If the ST series maintains its low input lag, and I don't end up seeing the "rainbow effect" from their previous models; I'll most likely pick one up this year.

Link to review/test where this is substantiated?

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post #280 of 1640 Old 02-29-2012, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayla View Post

I'll wait for OLED prices to go down, so this would a nice TV until then, I hope.

OLED TVs won't be "perfect" either. I saw problems with the prototypes at CES.

No TV is perfect.

Michael
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post #281 of 1640 Old 02-29-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrVizio View Post

It's so weird. I had to take back a DLP because I realized that I suffered from the dreaded RBE. Than I get this new Panny and I'm experiencing the same thing (though not as bad). .. It has something to do with our eyes.

I get the same thing on Panasonic plasmas - just like the RBE but green or yellow. I don't see it on LG or Samsung sets as much.

This effect, usually known as "phosphor lag", has been a passionately discussed topic on AVS since at least (and probably before) 2005 - see http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=603995 for one of the better threads on this topic.

If you are not sure if this bothers you, watch "Sin City" on your plasma. You will know immediately. Sin City is both black-and-white *and* "high key"( ie very contrasty, almost as if someone dialed the gamma up to about 4 in post production). These are perfect conditions for observing "phosphor lag".

As has been observed elsewhere, phosphor lag causes both rainbow effects (in all plasmas, 2D and otherwise) and "cross talk" in 3D plasmas. So recent improvements in decay times intended to reduce cross talk have actually helped with this "rainbow effect" as well.

The presumption is the 2012 lineup will have Panasonic's latest and best effort at minimizing decay times. Knowing Panasonic, the improvements will be real but incremental.
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post #282 of 1640 Old 02-29-2012, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post

Link to review/test where this is substantiated?

I guess the only thing that can't be substantiated is just how deep the black level is compared to last years ST model. Then again, Panasonic has lowered the pre-discharge, so it should be deeper. Other than that, Panasonic has already shown off how much brighter the 2012 panels are. Its entire panel has been redesigned from the ground up for the main purpose of increased brightness. Panasonic has reported about the ST/GT/VT models having faster phosphors than the 2011 models; just how much faster we don't know yet. The filter on the ST and GT model is from last years VT model. The sound quality from the TV itself should be improved with its "8-Train Speakers" system. Granted most speakers inside televisions suck to begin with, so this should be at least a decent upgrade. As for the design of the television itself, it seems better than last years pedestrian effort.

I have no reason to believe that what Panasonic is telling us about the new models aren't true. The only thing we don't know for sure is just how good the picture quality will be.

More about the new technology here.
More about the ST model here.
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post #283 of 1640 Old 02-29-2012, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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FYI - the english version of the ST50 operating manual is now available on Panasonic's support site (previous version was spanish only):

http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPER.../TCP50ST50.PDF

It's somewhat useless though, their 2012 manuals are more like quick start guides now as they no longer contain any information about the settings menus or Input Labeling etc - the manual is apparently built into the TV and accessed by bringing it up on the screen.

But a nice addition is that the operating manual now has a schematic diagram at the bottom showing the exact locations of the mounting holes which will help determine if their existing wall mount has enough adjustability to accomodate the new mounting hole pattern.

One huge problem that i see right now is that the mounting holes on the 50ST50 are a lot higher up on the back of the TV than on previous models so that might force upgraders to relocate their existing mount higher up on the wall. In my particular case, if i were to try to hang a new 50ST50 in place of my existing 46G10 those higher mounting holes forces me to raise my wall mount at least 3 inches higher up on my wall since the new TV's relocated upper mounting holes are over 3 inches higher than the top of my wall mount's TV brackets, but the problem is that i can only raise my wall mount two more inches since it's under my front window.

On the 50ST50, the The Upper mounting hole is 23.8" above bottom edge at lowest point of bottom edge of TV, and only 4.2" below the top edge of the TV's bezel. But the top hole on my Peerless bracket is 7" below the top of my 46G10. If i want to upgrade to a 50ST50 (and this presumably goes for the GT50), i'm going to have to fabricate an extension for my Peerless PLA50 TV brackets to reach those much higher upper mounting holes.

Another brand of wall mount is not an option because this is the only one that is offset enough to fit under my window and locate the TV at it's current height. I can't hang the TV any lower because it's a bit too low already.




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post #284 of 1640 Old 02-29-2012, 08:08 PM
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Randy, do you know if they have moved the mounting holes higher on all models and sizes? I placed my mounting bracket kind of based on the 65vt30 schematics for the 65vt50 I am going to purchase? It could be moved but would be a hassle. Thanks
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post #285 of 1640 Old 02-29-2012, 08:11 PM
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I see now in the manual that the bigger sizes still seem to be placed lower on the tv.
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post #286 of 1640 Old 03-01-2012, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NxNW View Post

This effect, usually known as "phosphor lag", has been a passionately discussed topic on AVS since at least (and probably before) 2005 - see http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=603995 for one of the better threads on this topic.

If you are not sure if this bothers you, watch "Sin City" on your plasma. You will know immediately. Sin City is both black-and-white *and* "high key"( ie very contrasty, almost as if someone dialed the gamma up to about 4 in post production). These are perfect conditions for observing "phosphor lag".

As has been observed elsewhere, phosphor lag causes both rainbow effects (in all plasmas, 2D and otherwise) and "cross talk" in 3D plasmas. So recent improvements in decay times intended to reduce cross talk have actually helped with this "rainbow effect" as well.

The presumption is the 2012 lineup will have Panasonic's latest and best effort at minimizing decay times. Knowing Panasonic, the improvements will be real but incremental.

Thanks, I read through a lot of that thread and have a much better understanding of what I am experiencing now.

Sounds like things were a lot worse 5, 6, 7 years ago. I agree, every attempt by Panasonic to reduce decay time will only continue to improve things. Even if only a little bit at a time.
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post #287 of 1640 Old 03-01-2012, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveZ06 View Post

Then again, Panasonic has lowered the pre-discharge, so it should be deeper.

I thought this was only on the VT50?

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post #288 of 1640 Old 03-01-2012, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveZ06 View Post


I guess the only thing that can't be substantiated is just how deep the black level is compared to last years ST model. Then again, Panasonic has lowered the pre-discharge, so it should be deeper. Other than that, Panasonic has already shown off how much brighter the 2012 panels are. Its entire panel has been redesigned from the ground up for the main purpose of increased brightness. Panasonic has reported about the ST/GT/VT models having faster phosphors than the 2011 models; just how much faster we don't know yet. The filter on the ST and GT model is from last years VT model. The sound quality from the TV itself should be improved with its "8-Train Speakers" system. Granted most speakers inside televisions suck to begin with, so this should be at least a decent upgrade. As for the design of the television itself, it seems better than last years pedestrian effort.

I have no reason to believe that what Panasonic is telling us about the new models aren't true. The only thing we don't know for sure is just how good the picture quality will be.

More about the new technology here.
More about the ST model here.

Not saying it won't be-- but I'll believe it when I see it. I get that we all are excited to see what's next but it's important to keep that anticipation in check with a heavy dose of reality: the 2011 line was a 'two steps forward and one step back' kind of year for Panasonic. They dramatically trimmed weight/dimensions and power draw while simultaneously increasing the speed of the panel and lowering black level; but they also produced the dimmest line of plasma tvs in years, had several color issues (decoding and the dreaded green/pink blobs) and regressed severely on the burn-in/IR front.

I expect the 2012 line will have incremental improvements but until I see test reports from owners and reviewers I'll take panasonic's marketing boasts with a grain of salt...

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post #289 of 1640 Old 03-01-2012, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I thought this was only on the VT50?

I believe this is across most of the lineup. I think the new drive system will only be on the UT, ST, GT, and VT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post

Not saying it won't be-- but I'll believe it when I see it. I get that we all are excited to see what's next but it's important to keep that anticipation in check with a heavy dose of reality: the 2011 line was a 'two steps forward and one step back' kind of year for Panasonic. They dramatically trimmed weight/dimensions and power draw while simultaneously increasing the speed of the panel and lowering black level; but they also produced the dimmest line of plasma tvs in years, had several color issues (decoding and the dreaded green/pink blobs) and regressed severely on the burn-in/IR front.

I expect the 2012 line will have incremental improvements but until I see test reports from owners and reviewers I'll take panasonic's marketing boasts with a grain of salt...

I know of all the problems with the 2011 models. That is why I didn't buy one. I had a feeling that 2012 would be the year Panasonic would redesign their panels, and I was right. You have to remember Panasonic has been using the same panel since 2008 (I think that's when NeoPDP came out), but simply making tweaks to it every year. My hope is that with this new panel it wont have all the issues associated with their previous panel.

As for your comment on their regression on the image retention front; they definitely improved on their 2011 models compared to their 2010. The 2010 model was the first time with the new phosphors designed with 3D in mind. It had some image retention issues, but with the 2011 models they redesigned the phosphors again to eliminate that issue. From what I understand, the 2011 models are no more susceptible to image retention than any other plasma today, or in the past.

I'm realistic that the improvements wont be anything significant. I'm hopeful that with this new panel the problems of the past will be resolved. We already know it's brighter, and hopefully they have fixed the color decoding issues as well. Things are looking up overall.
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post #290 of 1640 Old 03-01-2012, 06:47 PM
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So just got my 55in ST50 in today and first impressions are generally good. The new louver filter is insane, it is just short of being a matte screen. Very good at not reflecting light, but I find some clarity/sharpness is taken away by having that type of screen (more so in video games). So its up in the air right now.

So far NO BUZZING! There is a little fan noise but that is to be expected. Aesthetically it looks very much like last years Samsung plasma TVs, which is nice. I haven't messed around with the setting too much, def. in need of calibration as out of the box the picture is just OK.

Input lag on video games doesn't even seem to be an issue, I am not using Game mode and I don't notice any input lag.

So far no sign of IR and I didn't run any break in slides, just let it warm up to room temp. And that is after playing video games with static images.

Can't comment on 3d since in all their wisdom, Panny decided not to include glasses and there aren't any 2012 Bluetooth glasses released yet. Fun!

Might try to use the ST30 calibration settings and see what that does or will have to wait a couple months for pro's to do this TV. So far I'm happy but I am still deciding on that screen for video games....
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post #291 of 1640 Old 03-01-2012, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xCREEP1NGDEATHx View Post

So just got my 55in ST50 in today and first impressions are generally good. The new louver filter is insane, it is just short of being a matte screen. Very good at not reflecting light, but I find some clarity/sharpness is taken away by having that type of screen (more so in video games). So its up in the air right now.

So far NO BUZZING! There is a little fan noise but that is to be expected. Aesthetically it looks very much like last years Samsung plasma TVs, which is nice. I haven't messed around with the setting too much, def. in need of calibration as out of the box the picture is just OK.

Input lag on video games doesn't even seem to be an issue, I am not using Game mode and I don't notice any input lag.

So far no sign of IR and I didn't run any break in slides, just let it warm up to room temp. And that is after playing video games with static images.

Can't comment on 3d since in all their wisdom, Panny decided not to include glasses and there aren't any 2012 Bluetooth glasses released yet. Fun!

Might try to use the ST30 calibration settings and see what that does or will have to wait a couple months for pro's to do this TV. So far I'm happy but I am still deciding on that screen for video games....

That's very cool that you got one! Thanks for the report. Very interesting about the new filter. I'm sure you'll be flooded with questions, but I was wondering a few things.

First, did you/do you own a 2011 Panny plasma? How's this new set compare?

How's the motion in games?

Have you tried out any blu-rays?

Gradation. How's the false contouring/posterization/banding?

What mode are you using (cinema, custom, etc.)?

And any other thoughts you come up with.

Thanks
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post #292 of 1640 Old 03-02-2012, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

if i were to try to hang a new 50ST50 in place of my existing 46G10 those higher mounting holes forces me to raise my wall mount at least 3 inches higher up on my wall since the new TV's relocated upper mounting holes are over 3 inches higher than the top of my wall mount's TV brackets, but the problem is that i can only raise my wall mount two more inches since it's under my front window.

You can mount a couple of 2x4's vertically to the wall and mount to the 2x4's. It will be ugly, but it's behind the TV so it may not be too visible. Or you get a couple of nicer pieces of wood like oak or maple and do the same sort of thing.
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post #293 of 1640 Old 03-02-2012, 12:44 PM
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I answered all the questions my best inside of the quote so look carefully!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrVizio View Post

That's very cool that you got one! Thanks for the report. Very interesting about the new filter. I'm sure you'll be flooded with questions, but I was wondering a few things.

First, did you/do you own a 2011 Panny plasma? How's this new set compare?

I did not, but I did have a 2011 Samsung and so far I can say the black levels are better, but I would say that mostly comes from having the dark matte like screen/filter. So far I have not noticed FBR or floating blacks.

How's the motion in games?

Motion in games looks good, not anything noticeably different from the 2011 samsung. Plasma is still the best for gaming IMO because LCD and LED can sometimes cause screen tearing when swinging the camera fast left to right.

Have you tried out any blu-rays?

Just a little of The Dark Knight this morning, it looked good.

Gradation. How's the false contouring/posterization/banding?

Not sure how to look for these things, but haven't noticed anything wrong with the TV yet.

What mode are you using (cinema, custom, etc.)?

I use my own custom settings for gaming, for regular cable tv/movies I used the st30 calibration settings and for blu rays I haven't found a perfect setting yet outside cinema.

And any other thoughts you come up with.

My biggest thoughts right now are that filter and how much to me it looks like the LGLW5600 edge lit LED tv when I tried it. There just seems to be a clarity difference to my eye, but it does keep the blacks looking real good.

Also, being my first panasonic, I have to say that I do not like the lack of picture settings/control. For example the Samsung would let you control cell light level along with brightness/contrast. Panasonic only has the panel brightness which to me is kind of like a dynamic contrast control. I also don't like how it handles aspect ratios. The only one I found that doesn't look ballooned up on the screen is Fill screen and Hsize 2. With the samsung the just scan size worked perfectly and figures looked smaller than 16:9 but on the panny it just makes the image blow up on the screen as well as all the other aspect ratios outside 16:9. I don't dislike the TV but the matte like screen and lack of picture options is making me seriously consider another TV either the samsung pn51e7000 when it releases or the sony hx929.

Thanks

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post #294 of 1640 Old 03-02-2012, 01:33 PM
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I answered all the questions my best inside of the quote so look carefully!

Appreciate you taking the time to respond. Good info.
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post #295 of 1640 Old 03-02-2012, 03:19 PM
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Anyone know what the story is on the color decoder for the 2012s? Is it the improved one from the 2011 mid-year patch, or have they actually fixed it?
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post #296 of 1640 Old 03-02-2012, 08:20 PM
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TV wasn't experiencing this problem till i turned on the hockey game. Picture started off dim (where I had it set ) then all of a sudden popped to a very high brightness and continued to do this (like a strobe light) till it gave me a headache and i turned it off. Tried messing with the settings and didn't have any luck. This did not happen on any other programming, but i know its not a cable thing. Returning the Tv for the Sony Hx929 sunday. Sorry guys. Maybe it was just a fluke and hopefully not to the same degree the 2011 plasmas had.
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post #297 of 1640 Old 03-02-2012, 08:41 PM
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TV wasn't experiencing this problem till i turned on the hockey game. Picture started off dim (where I had it set ) then all of a sudden popped to a very high brightness and continued to do this (like a strobe light) till it gave me a headache and i turned it off. Tried messing with the settings and didn't have any luck. This did not happen on any other programming, but i know its not a cable thing. Returning the Tv for the Sony Hx929 sunday. Sorry guys. Maybe it was just a fluke and hopefully not to the same degree the 2011 plasmas had.

If this is true, than it's almost laughable. However, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the issue, but many people have confused normal scoreboard flashes and things during hockey games as FBr. So this may be a normal.

Also, some people like the look, the pop and punch, of LEDs. In that case, the Sony is good one.

Wish you could spend more time with the set, but you gotta do what ya' gotta do.
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post #298 of 1640 Old 03-02-2012, 10:11 PM
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If this is true, than it's almost laughable. However, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the issue, but many people have confused normal scoreboard flashes and things during hockey games as FBr. So this may be a normal.

Also, some people like the look, the pop and punch, of LEDs. In that case, the Sony is good one.

Wish you could spend more time with the set, but you gotta do what ya' gotta do.

No, it was pretty easy to see the drastic change in brightness. Even my wife went "woah!" I don't know how big the problem is because I did not see it in any other programming, games, movies. But I wasn't taking the chance anymore. Too many returned TV's, lol. Im hoping the Sony is good, had a chance to play around with it at the store and outside of viewing angle I thought the picture was pretty damn close to plasma even at handling motion.
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post #299 of 1640 Old 03-02-2012, 10:59 PM
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No, it was pretty easy to see the drastic change in brightness. Even my wife went "woah!" I don't know how big the problem is because I did not see it in any other programming, games, movies. But I wasn't taking the chance anymore. Too many returned TV's, lol. Im hoping the Sony is good, had a chance to play around with it at the store and outside of viewing angle I thought the picture was pretty damn close to plasma even at handling motion.

Is there maybe something like the c.a.t.s. Adjustment on the set left on???
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post #300 of 1640 Old 03-03-2012, 12:01 AM
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Hockey games have huge amounts of white (the ice) and then have the periodic in-arena strobe effect (still photographers still use very, very high powered flashes in arenas that under normal circumstances you don't see).

Given that plasma TVs have automatic-brightness limiters as well as other circuitry (like CATS type things) that can wreak havoc on what you see -- and should be considered somewhat "normal" -- this doesn't yet convince me that "fluctuating brightness" has returned to Panasonic plasmas. There is nothing worse in the world to cause your plasma screen to freak out than hockey. And if there was something in the settings that wasn't shut off, that would only make matters worse. Please don't confuse this with me saying, "It's OK for hockey to suck." It isn't, but let's not rush to conclusions.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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