Between an ST30 and an V25... - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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Plasma Flat Panel Displays > Between an ST30 and an V25...
Jimmy's Avatar Jimmy 12:09 PM 01-18-2012
I have both VT25 and ST30. Both are very similar, with the VT25 slightly better in overall PQ. Then again, the VT was ISF calibrated. The ST comes very close so it would be a toss up with the ribbon going to the ST due to cost value.

Regarding the VT25 and increasing black level, it ain't happening on my set. At 19 months now, the blacks are as inky as the day it was calibrated. Again, it matches up with the ST's blacks which is brand new. I guess my calibrator (D-Nice) would be able to see a slight rise with his meter, it's supposed to, but I don't think anybody without super power eyesight would ever notice. Knowing what I know now and if I went back in time, I would buy the VT25 again. Now, in the present, I would not hesitate buying another ST. JMHO

BlindGoldfish's Avatar BlindGoldfish 12:37 PM 01-18-2012
What is the SOA that was discussed? I've noticed this effect on my friend's Samsung LCD and it drives me crazy. I haven't seen it on my 09 Panasonic plasma.
jcmusika's Avatar jcmusika 01:26 PM 01-18-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

That's an 09 model. It was worse then.


+1
i got the 42G10 and just this year my black levels are worst than ever. actually it just one day was unberable to watch. i was aware about this but it has just stayed dark, for all those 3 years. but just a fews ago, my and the wifey notices that all movies (both sd and hd) that has dark scenes are unbearable to wacth, just like that.!
YMMV
CalWldLif's Avatar CalWldLif 01:37 PM 01-18-2012
I also have a VT25.
blacks have risen.
no question.
The saving grace is an outstanding filter that
allows ambient light to hide the raised blacks.
eonibm's Avatar eonibm 08:56 PM 01-18-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike42478 View Post

So I take it that the general consensus is that the VT25 is the better set if your willing to settle for the rising blacks and no wifi support out of the box.

Just curious as to why WiFi support out of the box is a consideration these days when most Blu-Ray players and Apple TV have WiFi now?
CalWldLif's Avatar CalWldLif 09:22 PM 01-18-2012
and the floating blacks.
I was lucky, did not have them until 1500hrs.
it was horrendous.
trying to find a setting that minimized them and then be afraid they would pop up. finally was able to find a setting in THX that cured them. fingers crossed.
Now even after the VT30 fix, video I have seen
was horrible still after the fix.
JukeBox360's Avatar JukeBox360 09:37 PM 01-18-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by eonibm View Post


Just curious as to why WiFi support out of the box is a consideration these days when most Blu-Ray players and Apple TV have WiFi now?

Same thing I was thinking lol
Jimmy's Avatar Jimmy 08:37 AM 01-19-2012
VT25 didn't have floating blacks, they have "rising blacks". reviews show that after expected rise in VT25 blacks, the set still beats the competition at the same end point.
Mike42478's Avatar Mike42478 09:44 AM 01-19-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by eonibm View Post


Just curious as to why WiFi support out of the box is a consideration these days when most Blu-Ray players and Apple TV have WiFi now?

Yea...actually thats a good question. I guess my attempts at comparing the two models revealed that the VT25 need a dongle, whereas the 2011's don't. In the end, it really was (and is) a non-issue.

Anyways, the tv is halfway done with the panel aging and I am considering doing like some sort of photo log to experience the blacks on the display. Probably not enough interest in the display, considering the new lineup is just around the corner. I might just do it to satisfy my own curiosity.
JukeBox360's Avatar JukeBox360 09:47 AM 01-19-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike42478 View Post


Yea...actually thats a good question. I guess my attempts at comparing the two models revealed that the VT25 need a dongle, whereas the 2011's don't. In the end, it really was (and is) a non-issue.

Anyways, the tv is halfway done with the panel aging and I am considering doing like some sort of photo log to experience the blacks on the display. Probably not enough interest in the display, considering the new lineup is just around the corner. I might just do it to satisfy my own curiosity.

Taking photos to capture your blacks would be pretty damn hard to do if not impossible. You can pay a cheap $200 set looks like KURO blacks. I don't know how one would go about taking accurate pics.
Mike42478's Avatar Mike42478 11:16 AM 01-19-2012
Hmm, yea on second thought, I will just wait and see what happens. I got a new display for a bargain and I can start saving for some more toys now
Camster's Avatar Camster 05:56 PM 01-19-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post

VT25 didn't have floating blacks, they have "rising blacks". reviews show that after expected rise in VT25 blacks, the set still beats the competition at the same end point.

The VT25 suffered from both. It has been widely reported here by owners. My 2010 G20 has awful floating blacks & of course they will rise too. The VT25's have the same problems as my G20 AFAIK.
CalWldLif's Avatar CalWldLif 06:27 PM 01-19-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post

The VT25 suffered from both. It has been widely reported here by owners. My 2010 G20 has awful floating blacks & of course they will rise too. The VT25's have the same problems as my G20 AFAIK.

yup. a whole bunch of
info here and elsewhere.
I own a VT25 and reported it here.
I must be a liar. :jerkoff:
Jimmy's Avatar Jimmy 07:19 AM 01-20-2012
Widely reported on forums by owners who did not know the difference between "floating blacks" and "rise in brightness"(mll), not by professionals. It's still going on today.
JukeBox360's Avatar JukeBox360 11:12 AM 01-20-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike42478 View Post

Hmm, yea on second thought, I will just wait and see what happens. I got a new display for a bargain and I can start saving for some more toys now

How do you like it thus far?
Camster's Avatar Camster 11:39 AM 01-20-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post

Widely reported on forums by owners who did not know the difference between "floating blacks" and "rise in brightness"(mll), not by professionals. It's still going on today.

I'm sure some people who didn't understand the difference could have reported the phenomenon but there is no way that explains away all of them. Most issues that occur with tvs are reported by users not professionals as it is the users who are living with the issues day to day.

This is why I no longer trust reviews of tvs as they simply are tested & used too briefly to show what issues the set may really have. In my case I do know the difference & have them really badly on my G20. I have every reason to believe the same issues reported on the VT25's & S2's for that matter are legitimate.

I am not suggesting the VT25 is a bad set I just wouldn't buy one myself after having experienced this issue first hand. The MLL rise is the least of the 2 problems in terms of viewing satisfaction.

The next time you are watching your VT shine a little light on the CATS sensor on a dark scene (with the CATS turned OFF in the menu of course) & watch your black level jump up by a factor of about 3.
JukeBox360's Avatar JukeBox360 11:43 AM 01-20-2012
"Most users" are things you were from AVS. This isn't a site to trust people's "problems." 90% of the crap people say is an issue is something they go looking for. Most common thing is using break in slides to see a "problem" and talk about how is shouldn't be there blah blah blah.

I can almost guarantee the people who've never seen this site. Manage to keep there displays longer and not complain about "issues" vs people who do come here.
Camster's Avatar Camster 11:52 AM 01-20-2012
I guess I was referring to the other 10% LOL in any case try the test I suggested for FB's on a set. If it has them it will cause them to float up if not they won't. I can make mine pop up & down at will & I suspect you can too..... The sets have an undefeatable CATS settings & react to APL changes.
Jimmy's Avatar Jimmy 11:57 AM 01-20-2012
I didn't want to imply that no VT25 suffered with the floating black phenom. I am sure that there are some owners of VT25s that have seen it. Floating blacks was a major issue in 2009. The 2010 VT25 was supposed to fix that problem but picked up a new problem of gradual increases of black brightness as a Panasonic feature. Generally, we can't say the VT25 series suffers from "Floating Blacks" when we advise others in their interest to purchase one. I am sure there are some that will say they have it. I will respect that.
Jimmy's Avatar Jimmy 12:09 PM 01-20-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post


The next time you are watching your VT shine a little light on the CATS sensor on a dark scene (with the CATS turned OFF in the menu of course) & watch your black level jump up by a factor of about 3.

Nope doesn't happen now, never happened, didn't happen when we had to cover D-nice with a blanket, to block the light coming in from a bank of windows, so he could calibrate my set. CATS has never been on. Sorry for those that have the problem. I agree I couldn't live with FB. Glad I don't have it. I've lucked out with a VT25 and a VT30 with no problems. Clean living I guess. LOL
Camster's Avatar Camster 12:15 PM 01-20-2012
2009 models did not suffer floating blacks it was a new problem in 2010. Apparently some models in earlier years perhaps 2006 or 2007 models had FB problems but I never owned any of those sets personally so can't say that with any certainty. I did own a 2009 & it did not have any FB problems whatsoever.

2009's however did suffer more dramatic & abrupt increases in MLL than the 2010 models did. The 2010 models (VT's included) had an improved algorithm that "softened" the MLL rises on sets produced after May 2010 but pre-May sets still had a more dramatic change. ( I have a Feb 2010 build unfortunately so didn't benefit from that design change)
Camster's Avatar Camster 12:20 PM 01-20-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post

Nope doesn't happen now, never happened, didn't happen when we had to cover D-nice with a blanket, to block the light coming in from a bank of windows, so he could calibrate my set. CATS has never been on. Sorry for those that have the problem. I agree I couldn't live with FB. Glad I don't have it. I've lucked out with a VT25 and a VT30 with no problems. Clean living I guess. LOL

Fair enough but come on just shine a little flashlight on that sensor with some dark content on the screen & the lights a little low.
tfoltz's Avatar tfoltz 12:55 PM 01-20-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post

I didn't want to imply that no VT25 suffered with the floating black phenom. I am sure that there are some owners of VT25s that have seen it. Floating blacks was a major issue in 2009. The 2010 VT25 was supposed to fix that problem but picked up a new problem of gradual increases of black brightness as a Panasonic feature. Generally, we can't say the VT25 series suffers from "Floating Blacks" when we advise others in their interest to purchase one. I am sure there are some that will say they have it. I will respect that.

At this point the OP already purchased his set so none of this matters, but your post is curious.

1. You more than implied that floating blacks do not occur; you said they didn't exist on the VT25. Many owners have seen it, some even posted in this thread.
2. Floating blacks was a major issue in 2010. I don't remember it being a problem in 2009 since that year's primary issue was rising blacks.
3. Rise in blacks has been occurring before 2010, so it was not a new problem in 2010. As already noted, rising blacks was a big issue in 2009 and is still a concern for 2010 and 2011 models (though far less), and probably will be for all future models until proven that they are gone. 2009 seems to have the most drastic and unbearable rise.
4. Generally we should advise others of floating blacks, or any other problems, so that they know what problems may occur. Full disclosure always helps.
RodK's Avatar RodK 01:18 PM 01-20-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post

I guess I was referring to the other 10% LOL in any case try the test I suggested for FB's on a set. If it has them it will cause them to float up if not they won't. I can make mine pop up & down at will & I suspect you can too..... The sets have an undefeatable CATS settings & react to APL changes.

Why not just cover the sensor with a piece of electrical tape. Problem solved
Jimmy's Avatar Jimmy 01:38 PM 01-20-2012
I agree it's time to let this thread die! The FB, RB and FBr problems have been discussed to the point that War Horse couldn't survive. The topic generated many experts but only a few were true and fewer yet are listened to. I'm out.
JukeBox360's Avatar JukeBox360 03:05 PM 01-20-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post

I agree it's time to let this thread die! The FB, RB and FBr problems have been discussed to the point that War Horse couldn't survive. The topic generated many experts but only a few were true and fewer yet are listened to. I'm out.

That makes two!
Camster's Avatar Camster 04:46 PM 01-20-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by RodK View Post

Why not just cover the sensor with a piece of electrical tape. Problem solved

Hehe I considered that at one time if only it were effective.
Camster's Avatar Camster 04:59 PM 01-20-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post

I agree it's time to let this thread die! The FB, RB and FBr problems have been discussed to the point that War Horse couldn't survive. The topic generated many experts but only a few were true and fewer yet are listened to. I'm out.

Thanks for stopping by..........
Mike42478's Avatar Mike42478 09:51 AM 01-21-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

How do you like it thus far?

Im really impressed with the set and overall very pleased with my purchase. I have no regrets going with the VT25. While watching my old set I took note of the blacks and I would probably get over the rising blacks if it happened again on my new display. As I suspected I am just not sensitive enough to pick things out like that. More power to the people that are though....on second that, ignorance is bliss lol. If there is one thing Ill regret in the future concerning this display, it would be not getting the 55"

Peace guys, thanks for all the insight!
Camster's Avatar Camster 02:20 PM 01-21-2012
I assume you got the VT in a 50"? My G20 set is a 50 inch & while big enough for the place I have it bigger would be nicer. 10-4 on the ignorance is bliss never read anything about your set ever again LOL. Sounds like you got a good deal. Enjoy!!

Cam
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