2012 LG Plasma Anticipation Thread - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 01-22-2012, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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post #2 of 25 Old 01-22-2012, 03:44 PM
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I don't you guys I do like that thin Basel. Hopefully it's for plasma as well since I didn't see plasma picture. Overall it looks great.
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post #3 of 25 Old 01-22-2012, 04:23 PM
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If the LGs maintain their previous color and gray-scale and do offer the 40% lower blacks or better, and we know they can, then I anticipate a commendable contender for 2012. The true Black filter with matte finish should be interesting!, or is that a True Black filter with a frame with a matte finish?

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post #4 of 25 Old 01-22-2012, 04:37 PM
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40% lower would still put them behind the competition as far as black levels.
Like usual, LG will offer solid performers with great value.
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post #5 of 25 Old 01-22-2012, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Normally LG had great products. Last year they where off though. The Plasma and LED fell short of being as good as the 2010 models. I hope they regain momentum

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post #6 of 25 Old 01-22-2012, 05:19 PM
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Reportedly, LG changed their phosphor characteristics for this year; I would like to imagine they finally addressed their image retention issues with this. If they can get their black levels on par with Panasonic/Samsung, and fix their image retention issues; they might have the best "bang for your buck".
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post #7 of 25 Old 01-22-2012, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveZ06 View Post

Reportedly, LG changed their phosphor characteristics for this year; I would like to imagine they finally addressed their image retention issues with this. If they can get their black levels on par with Panasonic/Samsung, and fix their image retention issues; they might have the best "bang for your buck".

Hi Dave

Some of us have tweaked our LGs to match the blacks to those of the current Panasonics/Samsungs, so LG are fully capable, we've also discovered that a happy by-product of reducing the MLL was the eradication of most if not all IR.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1372479

Robert
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post #8 of 25 Old 01-22-2012, 06:19 PM
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So no 70" plasma from LG this year then.
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post #9 of 25 Old 01-22-2012, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by X-Nemesis View Post

So no 70" plasma from LG this year then.

I know right?
I am also looking forward to get 70' plasma. Supposely panny should announce one in summer and I hope they do.
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post #10 of 25 Old 01-23-2012, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Hi Dave

Some of us have tweaked our LGs to match the blacks to those of the current Panasonics/Samsungs, so LG are fully capable, we've also discovered that a happy by-product of reducing the MLL was the eradication of most if not all IR.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1372479

I've seen that thread. It's nice that you can do that, but nobody should have to do those types of adjustments if the panel was good enough to begin with. Hopefully, the new 2012 panel will have great contrast out of the box. I'm still looking more forward to the Panasonic ST50, but I still have my eye out for the new Samsung and LG.
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post #11 of 25 Old 01-23-2012, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveZ06 View Post

I've seen that thread. It's nice that you can do that, but nobody should have to do those types of adjustments if the panel was good enough to begin with. Hopefully, the new 2012 panel will have great contrast out of the box. I'm still looking more forward to the Panasonic ST50, but I still have my eye out for the new Samsung and LG.

I agree but LG may have had their hands tied, from what I can gather their panel technology is/was very close to Pansonic's and they may have been close to patent infringement, holding back on the black levels may have kept them out of troubled waters. I have managed to squeeze a lower MLL out of my 2010 PX950 in direct comparison to the ST30 and it may equal the VT30 but without a direct comparison I cannot say for sure.

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post #12 of 25 Old 01-23-2012, 12:04 PM
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I don't think black level has anything to do with patent infringement. If there was some sort of infringement happening; Panasonic would jump on that right away.
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post #13 of 25 Old 01-23-2012, 12:13 PM
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My only concern with those pot tweaks is whether it's causing some hard to the TV and will that show up some day? Maybe there's a reason why LG hasn't adjusted them to such lower MLLs?

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post #14 of 25 Old 01-23-2012, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

My only concern with those pot tweaks is whether it's causing some hard to the TV and will that show up some day? Maybe there's a reason why LG hasn't adjusted them to such lower MLLs?

Hi David

There is obviously a reason and we have discussed that and the pros and cons, also some have gotten minor improvements while some of us have achieved stellar results, whether it affects long term reliability or even improves the longevity of the set only time will tell, but the majority of us are extremely happy with the results. Bottom line though is that the LGs can produce competing black levels by picking out the better panels for their flagship models and adjusting them accordingly, which I hope they do this year.

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post #15 of 25 Old 01-23-2012, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveZ06 View Post

I don't think black level has anything to do with patent infringement. If there was some sort of infringement happening; Panasonic would jump on that right away.

Hi Dave,

It has everything to do with black levels, I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but when you put 2 and 2 together.....
There's always a race for better technology and the consumers money and he who gets there first is King, a King who has sharp teeth.

You may also want to check out the excellent thread by xrox.
Zero Black Level PDP Research
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1291382
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Display R&D Lab., LG Electronics Inc., 16 Woomyeon-Dong, Seocho, Seoul 137-724, Korea

Comment - This is a confusing paper in that they discuss 3 different zero black level designs throughout the paper and then essentially conclude that they must create some black level to maintain stability??? They do this by applying a reset pulse every few frames (just like the Panasonic and Fujitsu patents)


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post #16 of 25 Old 01-23-2012, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Hi Dave,

It has everything to do with black levels, I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but when you put 2 and 2 together.....
There's always a race for better technology and the consumers money and he who gets there first is King, a King who has sharp teeth.

You may also want to check out the excellent thread by xrox.
Zero Black Level PDP Research
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1291382


Correlation is not causation...

What I really meant to say in my previous post was: you can't patent infringe upon achieving a true level of black. If LG's panels were designed and operated in the exact way a Panasonic panel were; than Panasonic would sue regardless what the black level was. It's kind of silly to think that a deeper black level is the only thing separating LG and Panasonic from a patent infringement case.
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post #17 of 25 Old 01-23-2012, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveZ06 View Post

Correlation is not causation...

What I really meant to say in my previous post was: you can't patent infringe upon achieving a true level of black. If LG's panels were designed and operated in the exact way a Panasonic panel were; than Panasonic would sue regardless what the black level was. It's kind of silly to think that a deeper black level is the only thing separating LG and Panasonic from a patent infringement case.

Agreed. Where is the hard proof that LG is infringing upon Panasonic's patent? If LG achieving great blacks is a ground for patent infringement, Panasonic should sue Samsung instead because last year's Samsung's got floating black, brightness fluctuations, and rising black all rolled into one, lol. Or maybe Samsung should sue Panasonic instead because now apparently some of Panasonic tvs buzz too.

On topic, I'm hoping to see these '40% better blacks' more akin to what Rob80 was able to achieve with his PX950, more headrooms still for black tweak with better default blacks. After the black tweak, I'm now a LG convert and will be buying their set as long as they get input lag under control. They do need to get that '40% better blacks' across all panels though, not just a flagship product. Last year's LG was a huge downgrade in black even compared to PK series period and they need to rectify that. I'm just hoping they do that not by simply dialing in set_up as they did for some of PV450 models. Let us the tweakers take it further lolol
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post #18 of 25 Old 01-23-2012, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveZ06 View Post

Correlation is not causation...

What I really meant to say in my previous post was: you can't patent infringe upon achieving a true level of black. If LG's panels were designed and operated in the exact way a Panasonic panel were; than Panasonic would sue regardless what the black level was. It's kind of silly to think that a deeper black level is the only thing separating LG and Panasonic from a patent infringement case.

True

And yes I was thinking solely in terms of patented technology with regards to achieving lower MLLs (blacks) with plasma panels.

Robert
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post #19 of 25 Old 01-24-2012, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Why it it them that the 2011 models had about a 25% rise in black levels from 2010 models ? Thats what are test show, that is a step in the wrong direction.

Either way I hope there 2012 PDP's are at LEAST as good as there 2010 model.

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post #20 of 25 Old 01-24-2012, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Why it it them that the 2011 models had about a 25% rise in black levels from 2010 models ? Thats what are test show, that is a step in the wrong direction.

Either way I hope there 2012 PDP's are at LEAST as good as there 2010 model.

Of course you do, it's bad for business.
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post #21 of 25 Old 01-25-2012, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Why it it them that the 2011 models had about a 25% rise in black levels from 2010 models ? Thats what are test show, that is a step in the wrong direction.

Either way I hope there 2012 PDP's are at LEAST as good as there 2010 model.


Well if there is indeed a 40% improvement in the MLL, they'll be 15% lower than 2010.

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post #22 of 25 Old 01-25-2012, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

Hi Dave,

It has everything to do with black levels, I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but when you put 2 and 2 together.....
There's always a race for better technology and the consumers money and he who gets there first is King, a King who has sharp teeth.

You may also want to check out the excellent thread by xrox.
Zero Black Level PDP Research
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1291382

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob80b View Post

True

And yes I was thinking solely in terms of patented technology with regards to achieving lower MLLs (blacks) with plasma panels.

The general LG and Panasonic driving waveforms I've seen in patents and papers do look very similar to each other but do have some differences.

Little differences in shapes and position of the pulses and I don't understand if LG is using selective reset or not for subfields 2-10. Below is a summary:

Panasonic RBD
1st Subfield - All pixel reset (rise - fall)
2nd - 10th Subfields - Selective reset (fall only)

LG
1st Subfield - All pixel reset (High voltage rise and fall)
2nd - 10th Subfields - Low voltage reset (looks like fall only)-not sure if selective

Regarding the specific paper quoted in the zero black thread: When I said "just like Panasonic" I was only referring to the concept of periodic reset pulses once every few frames. However, the proposed way that LG would generate this periodic reset is dramatically different than Panasonic. So in this case there would be no infringement IMO.

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post #23 of 25 Old 01-25-2012, 10:51 AM
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These could potentially be very good sets if the claims about a large reduction in black level hold true. I know the pz950 was a black level flop, but the pk550 from 2010 was measuring around .012-.013 ft/L

If it's still possible to adjust the black level down further from whatever the new mll is, with this tweaking method, they might get deeper than the VT50

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post #24 of 25 Old 01-25-2012, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

The general LG and Panasonic driving waveforms I've seen in patents and papers do look very similar to each other but do have some differences.

Little differences in shapes and position of the pulses and I don't understand if LG is using selective reset or not for subfields 2-10. Below is a summary:

Panasonic RBD
1st Subfield - All pixel reset (rise - fall)
2nd - 10th Subfields - Selective reset (fall only)

LG
1st Subfield - All pixel reset (High voltage rise and fall)
2nd - 10th Subfields - Low voltage reset (looks like fall only)-not sure if selective

Regarding the specific paper quoted in the zero black thread: When I said "just like Panasonic" I was only referring to the concept of periodic reset pulses once every few frames. However, the proposed way that LG would generate this periodic reset is dramatically different than Panasonic. So in this case there would be no infringement IMO.

Thanks xrox for putting my suspicion to rest.

Still doesn't explain why LG opted for higher MLLs on the 2011 sets, I'm sure their techs could have come up with a stable configuration for a much lower MLL, at least with the PZ950 flagship, especially when the lower MLLs we've achieved with the pots adjustments also more or less reduced/eliminated IR, LG's other accepted failing.
Reviewers and myself have given LG consistently high marks for color, grayscale, motion handling etc so I'm not too sure why they shot themselves in the foot.
There could be any number of technical reasons but as a major supplier and manufacturer it just does not sit right.
Anyway they appear to be keeping a low profile on this years offerings, maybe they got a sleeper in the works, maybe.

Robert
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post #25 of 25 Old 01-25-2012, 11:24 AM
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Thanks xrox for putting my suspicion to rest.

Still doesn't explain why LG opted for higher MLLs on the 2011 sets, I'm sure their techs could have come up with a stable configuration for a much lower MLL, at least with the PZ950 flagship, especially when the lower MLLs we've achieved with the pots adjustments also more or less reduced/eliminated IR, LG's other accepted failing.
Reviewers and myself have given LG consistently high marks for color, grayscale, motion handling etc so I'm not too sure why they shot themselves in the foot.
There could be any number of technical reasons but as a major supplier and manufacturer it just does not sit right.
Anyway they appear to be keeping a low profile on this years offerings, maybe they got a sleeper in the works, maybe.

Don't get me wrong. Patent infringement is a possibility that would not surprise me. I just don't have any evidence with the info that I've read. Like I said though the waveforms are similar.

Another more logical reason for the high blacks is to ensure that all pixels are controllable under all circumstances including panel aging, APL, temperature ranges...etc

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