Samsung D series FBr fix discussion - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 04:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Looks like your display went through the whole process even though there was no pop-up since you have the latest logic version FW (11-11-04), interesting. enjoy
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post #62 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 06:09 AM
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For the 51D8000:

SW version 11-10-31
SW checksum 0B402

No optimization.
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post #63 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 06:17 AM
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For the 59D8000

SW version 11-11-04
SW Checksum 0xE09B

No optimization.
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post #64 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 06:27 AM
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Non-scientific, but I looked at the black bars on 2.4 material last night through a light tube (i.e., paper towel roll, lol) and as zoyd has stated, there were slowly rising and lowering black levels. It was not dramatic, and I cannot see these changes during normal viewing, even when looking for them.

Reminds me of CRT displays that do not hold black well based on APL. Furthermore, the scenes with lowest APL have the lowest blacks (where shadow detail is most important), so black detail is still there when it's most critical. (not to say black detail is not important in scenes with high APL, just more important in the darker ones)

While not optimal, this is much better than the jarring, distracting abrupt gamma change that was previously plaguing this display with minimal APL changes. Overall I am very happy with the improvement.
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post #65 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pato79 View Post

For the 51D8000:

SW version 11-10-31
SW checksum 0B402

No optimization.

For the 59D8000

SW version 11-11-04
SW Checksum 0xE09B

No optimization.

pato, both of those are the updated logic firmware so your upgrade was successful.
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post #66 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 07:29 AM
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Zoid, you might want to change the first post warning the patch may do this to your TV.

Would be good for those that might not like it.

PS, I wonder if the Panasonic fix was similar? I'd guess no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbdeen View Post

Non-scientific, but I looked at the black bars on 2.4 material last night through a light tube (i.e., paper towel roll, lol) and as zoyd has stated, there were slowly rising and lowering black levels. It was not dramatic, and I cannot see these changes during normal viewing, even when looking for them.

Reminds me of CRT displays that do not hold black well based on APL. Furthermore, the scenes with lowest APL have the lowest blacks (where shadow detail is most important), so black detail is still there when it's most critical. (not to say black detail is not important in scenes with high APL, just more important in the darker ones)

While not optimal, this is much better than the jarring, distracting abrupt gamma change that was previously plaguing this display with minimal APL changes. Overall I am very happy with the improvement.


buytme
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post #67 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

pato, both of those are the updated logic firmware so your upgrade was successful.

Good deal. No pops yet.
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post #68 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 07:33 AM
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I upgraded to 1019.5 but did not get the OPTIMIZATION step that corrects the issue per the posts on these threads. I am waiting for two USB sticks that supposedly will correct this for me.

However for the first time I seem to have found a setting that definitely affects the whether I see the FBrs or not. Maybe this is due to the 1019.5 update but I am not sure.

HDMI BLACK LEVEL. I prefer it set to LOW. However when I set it to NORMAL - which creates "gray" blacks along with Cell light 18, Contrast 90, and Brightness 60 - no FBrs. This is consistant as I have played the same scenes over and over.

So then I lowered Brightness to 40 - to get stronger blacks while leaving HBL at NORMAL. The FBrs came back. Put Brightness back to 50 or above they go away.

I tried lowering Cell lighting - no change - so what is going on? I think it's the Brighness setting. HBL set to NORMAL says that it "increases" brightness levels. And, when lowering Brightness to 40 the FBrs came back for me.

So I have it on 50 now. I am watching and not seeing FBrs. When I was on 1018.1 - this did not happen. I saw FBrs NO MATTER WHAT.

So the upgrade to 1019.5 I think changed - something. But I don't think the fix is complete due to the skipped OPTIMIZATION.

Thoughts? Zoyd?
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post #69 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 08:03 AM
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I tried downloading the test clip. It creates a FBr_test.m2ts file.

My PN64 does not recognize that as video. It will recognize MPG files just fine. My VLC player on my PC will play it but it shows garbage.

Is there a setting or another way to get this to play when plugging in the USB?
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post #70 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 09:43 AM
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Pn64d550

Logic SW 11-06-07
Checksum 0x2E12

No optimization
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post #71 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Zoid, you might want to change the first post warning the patch may do this to your TV.

Would be good for those that might not like it.

PS, I wonder if the Panasonic fix was similar? I'd guess no.

Probably a good idea but I have been waiting for confirmation, I hate to base this on a single event. Panasonic fix did not affect black level this way from what I have read but EU Samsung fix had a similar problem.

@hamiltonpl: Read the first post for directions and then tell me what your logic firmware version is.

Regarding HDMI low/normal, this is not related to this discussion (that all happens in the DSP), you should set that based on your input HDMI=Normal for YCbCr or RGB full inputs, HDMI=Low for RGB limited input.
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post #72 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeK78 View Post

Pn64d550

Logic SW 11-06-07
Checksum 0x2E12

No optimization

Yours did not update, looks like all the 64"ers get 11-11-04
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post #73 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 10:12 AM
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Zoyd, in regards to your now gradually rising black levels...I was under the impression that all TV's black levels usually rise/lower based on the APL? Don't CRTs and LCDs do this? Are plasmas not supposed to? (I've never owned a plasma, currently own an LG LCD).
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post #74 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Stieg View Post

Zoyd, in regards to your now gradually rising black levels...I was under the impression that all TV's black levels usually rise/lower based on the APL? Don't CRTs and LCDs do this? Are plasmas not supposed to? (I've never owned a plasma, currently own an LG LCD).

Plasmas used to do that (actually is was usually a step change at some mid-APL level). I don't know about the LGs but both Samsung and Panasonic 2011 sets have rock-solid black levels up to maximum APL.


edit: I was only partly correct in the above statement. Black level is held for what's called ANSI contrast (checkerboard pattern and window steps in general) which never used to be the case. But it is not held for mixed content scenes on the Samsung, this is something I hadn't realized until LarryInRI confirmed my results on his display which is on the old firmware. I do not know if Panasonic's have the same behavior or not.
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post #75 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Probably a good idea but I have been waiting for confirmation, I hate to base this on a single event. Panasonic fix did not affect black level this way from what I have read but EU Samsung fix had a similar problem.

@hamiltonpl: Read the first post for directions and then tell me what your logic firmware version is.

Regarding HDMI low/normal, this is not related to this discussion (that all happens in the DSP), you should set that based on your input HDMI=Normal for YCbCr or RGB full inputs, HDMI=Low for RGB limited input.

Zoyd - For my PN64D550 that did NOT opitmize after the upgrade:
11-02-14
0x1FFE

And I notice that HDMI Black Level is GREYED OUT when in CINEMA SMOOTH mode. Pops don't occur for me in CS mode likley because HBL is disabled. Setting to NORMAL at 60hz eliminates the pops for me if BL is 50 or above. Set BL to 40 and the pops are back. This was NOT the case when at version 1018.1.
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post #76 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is a plot of the black level rise on my display. Measured in black bar of 2.35 BD - Revenge of the Sith, start of ch. 29. The black level doubles. I have seen it go even higher on higher APL material.

rising_black.png
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post #77 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamiltonpl View Post

Zoyd - For my PN64D550 that did NOT opitmize after the upgrade:
11-02-14
0x1FFE

And I notice that HDMI Black Level is GREYED OUT when in CINEMA SMOOTH mode. Pops don't occur for me in CS mode likley because HBL is disabled. Setting to NORMAL at 60hz eliminates the pops for me if BL is 50 or above. Set BL to 40 and the pops are back. This was NOT the case when at version 1018.1.

Looks like yours did not update but find someone who has your model that did optimize and get them to check the version. I think yours should be 11-11-04.

CS mode masks the effect because it has a naturally higher mll. If HDMI is set wrong it can have the same effect. (greyed out means it's auto-negotiated by the device and set properly)
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post #78 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Looks like yours did not update but find someone who has your model that did optimize and get them to check the version. I think yours should be 11-11-04.

CS mode masks the effect because it has a naturally higher mll. If HDMI is set wrong it can have the same effect. (greyed out means it's auto-negotiated by the device and set properly)

Yeah. When I get the USB to downgrade to 1018.1 I am going to check the version at that point. Then run the second USB to uprgrade to 1019.5. And, check the version AGAIN. It will be interesting to see what happens. I am hoping the downgrade "flashes" something so the upgrade will actuall OPTIMIZE and work. I dread having to call the service tech out. But If I do I do.
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post #79 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 11:38 AM
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I updated to 1024.8 and did not get the optimizing. After reading about the rising blacks i i down graded back to 1024.3 through the online update last night. Im at work now but when i get home i will check my logic version, it should be 11-11-04 if it updated correct?
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post #80 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 11:49 AM
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I think if one reinstalls the previous update you dont totally downgrade.
I think the only way to go for ex from 1019.5 to full 1019 is to get a special usb from samsung.

I think this is the only way to trully go back to where you were.
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post #81 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randroid View Post

I think if one reinstalls the previous update you dont totally downgrade.
I think the only way to go for ex from 1019.5 to full 1019 is to get a special usb from samsung.

I think this is the only way to trully go back to where you were.

My chat with Sammy confirms this. But what is weird is they are telling me it will downgrade me to the previous version. I was on 1018.1. Why go back to that?

I am wondering though if what will really happen is that it will downgrade me to 1019 and THEN upgrade from that to 1019.5. I tried to get them to explain exactly what was going to happen and how this would be different from what I already did - and they kept pressing that scipted button that says "This should fix the issue."
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post #82 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 03:10 PM
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Like I stated, I havent noticed any change in black levels since I fully upgraded.

Zoyd you may want to just fully upgrade and then test it. Halfway upgrading and experienced problems kinda makes sense to me :/
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post #83 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I have another user who has measured his D7000 on the old firmware showing similar results to what I see. This implies that other than the removal of "pops" the black level behavior is the same between old and new timing board behavior.
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post #84 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I have another user who has measured his D7000 on the old firmware showing similar results to what I see. This implies that other than the removal of "pops" the black level behavior is the same between old and new timing board behavior.

Therefore, if I understand you correctly, there is no penalty (regarding black level) for upgrading? ( at least for the d7000 in question)

Somewhat off topic: what happens to everyone else when the next official firmware hits the Internet for upgrading over the web? Does everyone get "pushed" to the updated timing?
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post #85 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbdeen View Post

Therefore, if I understand you correctly, there is no penalty (regarding black level) for upgrading? ( at least for the d7000 in question)

yes.

Quote:


Somewhat off topic: what happens to everyone else when the next official firmware hits the Internet for upgrading over the web? Does everyone get "pushed" to the updated timing?

Depends on what Samsung wants to do. If we are considered successful beta testers they might bundle it in the next general release (assuming there is one). Or they might just figure those who don't complain are fine where they are.
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post #86 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 04:26 PM
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Ok so now i must ask:

Which firmware is the keeper?, 1018,1019 or 1019.5?
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post #87 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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post #88 of 1618 Old 01-28-2012, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Looks like the latest version, assuming your timing board updated as well, is a keeper.

Even with the black issues?, i know at least this one doesnt have the fbr
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post #89 of 1618 Old 01-29-2012, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I was only partly correct in the above statement. Black level is held for what's called ANSI contrast (checkerboard pattern and window steps in general) which never used to be the case. But it is not held for mixed content scenes on the Samsung, this is something I hadn't realized until LarryInRI confirmed my results on his display which is on the old firmware. I do not know if Panasonic's have the same behavior or not.

Yap, that's what I cried about in November.

No, the black level of the 2011 Panasonics is really stable.
My D550 fluctuated between 0.045 - 0.12 cd/m^2 with the FBr-fix EU firmwares which was enough to make me get rid of it. My current Pana G30 is stable at ~0.022 cd/m^2 which is half of the lowest Samsung but the fluctuation itself was more disturbing for me than the contrast difference (but yah, the Samsung looked very milky when I placed them side-by-side and displayed the same random pictures on them but it doesn't mean the Panasonic isn't milky as well when it's alone in the dark...).

"DIY certified hobby-calibrator" (based on ChadB's "warning signs" list
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post #90 of 1618 Old 01-29-2012, 06:37 AM
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I paged back through this thread and could not find a model-by-model listing of the best FBr fixing firmware for each model (I'm amazed that most of you can talk like you have every firmware memorized for every model!). Can someone confirm that it's 1014.6 (or not) for the D7000. That's what I found back when these firmware upgrades were first being discussed. Thanks.
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