Samsung Plasma Panel tweaks for better blacks. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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Plasma Flat Panel Displays > Samsung Plasma Panel tweaks for better blacks.
zoyd's Avatar zoyd 08:05 AM 02-07-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by muzzakus View Post

Any links to a step by step for experimetning in the area Zoyd?

No links on that menu, I think I'm the first to access it and post that response. For getting the hardware set-up you can find some info at the samygo.tv wiki site. You need to wire the RS-232 pins (these are either on the VGA connector or on a 3-contact stereo plug labeled "ex-link") to a RS-232->USB adapter. Then set your TV RS-232 connection to "Logic" in the SM and fire up a terminal emulator on your pc/mac

LanceX's Avatar LanceX 10:47 AM 02-09-2012
Since my 59d550 dont have yrr pot,is thr voltage tweak worthwhile? If its a better noticeable difference then i may do it then.
zoyd's Avatar zoyd 11:05 AM 02-09-2012
On my display the voltage tweak was measurable but not noticeable, so it's probably not worth the trouble.
muzzakus's Avatar muzzakus 04:14 PM 02-09-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post


No links on that menu, I think I'm the first to access it and post that response. For getting the hardware set-up you can find some info at the samygo.tv wiki site. You need to wire the RS-232 pins (these are either on the VGA connector or on a 3-contact stereo plug labeled "ex-link") to a RS-232->USB adapter. Then set your TV RS-232 connection to "Logic" in the SM and fire up a terminal emulator on your pc/mac

Thanks Zoid. I guess nothing ventured, nothing gained. Will try when able.
pukemon's Avatar pukemon 08:20 PM 02-10-2012
does this help with buzzing any? my plasma has an acceptable level of buzz. it's inaudible with any ambient sound or audio on. just curious as this might be helpful to others who have an annoying buzz.
zoyd's Avatar zoyd 08:27 PM 02-10-2012
No, it won't change level if buzzing.
cooknl's Avatar cooknl 03:06 AM 02-11-2012
Just out of curiousity, does it matter in which PICTURE MODE the tv is , when measureing the voltages etc etc??

I would imagine you would get all different values like between DYNAMIC mode and MOVIE mode.

Rob
zoyd's Avatar zoyd 04:37 AM 02-11-2012
no, voltages are constant regardless of mode or content.
rob80b's Avatar rob80b 05:28 AM 02-11-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooknl View Post

Just out of curiousity, does it matter in which PICTURE MODE the tv is , when measureing the voltages etc etc??

I would imagine you would get all different values like between DYNAMIC mode and MOVIE mode.

Rob

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

no, voltages are constant regardless of mode or content.

Hi Guys

Following the LG service manual a full white raster should be employed, Samsung should be the same.

This also applies to when using a scope to adjust the waveform, obviously if you do not have appropriate equipment to measure the voltages or monitor the waveform you'll need to wing it to see if pixel misfires occur by alternating between light and dark images.
zoyd's Avatar zoyd 05:34 AM 02-11-2012
yeah, I've seen that but the voltage on these panels does not change with or without a load so it doesn't matter. I've found using the scrolling "anti-retention" pattern from the user menu is the best way to identifying misfires as you adjust the trims and should be used for tweaks on this panel.
rob80b's Avatar rob80b 06:16 AM 02-11-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

yeah, I've seen that but the voltage on these panels does not change with or without a load so it doesn't matter.

Interesting, a different voltage regulator must keep the panel voltages constant for all luminance.
zzoli's Avatar zzoli 10:36 AM 02-11-2012
Just finished tuning Yrr on my European 50C430.

Looking at test clips with 24Hz and 50 Hz framerates finally I settled at a point where the blacks got darker and no pixel misfires happen.

It isn't the deepest black (in fact the 43D450 in the bedroom is darker), but still an improvement, so time well spent.

Thumbs up for Zoyd!
zoyd's Avatar zoyd 10:48 AM 02-11-2012
Great to hear you were able to squeeze some worthwhile black level performance out of the C430!
janos666's Avatar janos666 03:43 PM 02-13-2012
Another EU 51D550:

Default pot alignments were different.
The panel was more homogeneous.
My i1d3 seems to work with ArgyCMS, so I used it.

I tried to tweak it a lot and eventually ended up with a slightly different alignment (Yrr rotated notably clockwise, Vscan rotated very slightly conterclockwise, Vs rotated very-very slightly clockwise).

Very slight MLL improvement (~0.041 from ~0.045) but interestingly the upper end is notably lower:
60Hz full black: 0.041
96Hz black border of Dynamic Contras.mp4 with white background: 0.066

Then I carefully calibrated the TV as a D6500 (service menu hack), including a fresh ADC cal (the logic board update changed the default ADC values! They were the factory defaults from the manual this time but have been different before [134/43 or so...], so I felt I should do it and I got the usual 130/73, slightly different than in the manual).

The colors were notably better than before (I calibrated this TV before with the same equipment but right after the evil EU update got released. And I didn't check the ADC that time) and felt more neutral.

We used a lot of movie scenes to evaluate the results and it looked OK. But still there is a red push (most notable on human faces with dark scenes), just like with Pana. This seems to be a trend these days... (manual override won't help because bright scenes will be undersaturated with eye-balled color settings). But the green tinting (greenish yellows on some luminance levels) disappeared (probably the ADC). The overall PQ felt really good. I almost missed my own old D550 which I couldn't keep with the fluctuations.
Soopermario's Avatar Soopermario 05:21 AM 02-14-2012
Hi, my Name is Mario. I'm from Germany, so, sorry for my bad english.

I have an PS51D6900 European Model since about 3 Weeks. Mine was delivered with 1019 Firmware and I had the dull image with poor black levels.
So thank you Zoyd for the Logic Board Update and some other Tipps I read here and in AVForums.
After I did the Logicboard update und entered the ADC Values (thank you janos666 for that) my picture is now improved but I'm not satisfied yet. Still my black levels are poor.
I don't want to do the black level tweak because of warranty.
My Questions are, can I call Samsung Service to calibrate the voltages for better blacks?
And how much light is 0.06 cd/m2 or 0.012 ftL. I don't have a meter to measure my black levels, so I have to do it with my eyes. Can someone discribe me please how dark the normal black levels of the 51" Samsung D-Series are?

In a dark room my blacks look like "light-black" or something. I don't would it call grey.

The blacks on my old 4:3 CRT TV are not visible in a dark room, so I would call them 0.0 cd/m2. Can I achieve something like that with a Plasma?

Greetings
Mario
johnny31390's Avatar johnny31390 01:49 AM 02-16-2012
Zoyd, would you recommend calibrating before or after this panel tweaking? Or rather calibrating before AND after?
Collusion's Avatar Collusion 02:58 AM 02-16-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soopermario View Post

I don't want to do the black level tweak because of warranty.
My Questions are, can I call Samsung Service to calibrate the voltages for better blacks?

I doubt it, if the set is within the specifications and works OK. In any case it would cost you something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soopermario View Post

And how much light is 0.06 cd/m2 or 0.012 ftL. I don't have a meter to measure my black levels, so I have to do it with my eyes. Can someone discribe me please how dark the normal black levels of the 51" Samsung D-Series are?

The blacks on my old 4:3 CRT TV are not visible in a dark room, so I would call them 0.0 cd/m2. Can I achieve something like that with a Plasma?

No.
Soopermario's Avatar Soopermario 03:59 AM 02-16-2012
Thanks Collusion for your reply. So how much will it cost me if the Samsung Tech Guy says my set is ok and don't need adjustment?

I thought Plasma should have a better black level than LCD, but mine doesn't. Thats because I like to know how I can tell with my eyes that my black levels are to high?
My Picture look like it has a grey haze over it. Even on daylight the blacks look not black enough.
I can't imagine that a Plasma-TV is so bad at black levels.
muzzakus's Avatar muzzakus 05:33 AM 02-16-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soopermario View Post

Thanks Collusion for your reply. So how much will it cost me if the Samsung Tech Guy says my set is ok and don't need adjustment?

I thought Plasma should have a better black level than LCD, but mine doesn't. Thats because I like to know how I can tell with my eyes that my black levels are to high?
My Picture look like it has a grey haze over it. Even on daylight the blacks look not black enough.
I can't imagine that a Plasma-TV is so bad at black levels.

Join the club. I have the back off, but I can't do anything about it because it has no pots, it's all electronic! Don't waste your time looking at an image you're dissatisfied with, do the tweak if able. I wish I could.
Soopermario's Avatar Soopermario 06:06 AM 02-16-2012
I am a guy who likes to do such things and I think i will do the tweak when the first 6 months of warranty are other.
Do you have a 59" or bigger Modell muzzakus? I read here that the one's without the pots can be adjusted through a special service menu that is not totally discovered yet. Maybe your get lucky in the future.
mkunask's Avatar mkunask 08:00 AM 02-16-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post

Another EU 51D550:
We used a lot of movie scenes to evaluate the results and it looked OK. But still there is a red push (most notable on human faces with dark scenes), just like with Pana. This seems to be a trend these days... (manual override won't help because bright scenes will be undersaturated with eye-balled color settings). But the green tinting (greenish yellows on some luminance levels) disappeared (probably the ADC). The overall PQ felt really good. I almost missed my own old D550 which I couldn't keep with the fluctuations.

Hi Janos,
don't want to go off topic, but from my experience the best way to compensate for red push is by "skin tone" control (found in advanced picture menu on D8000, not sure about D550). There was short discussion about this on UK forum.
Soopermario's Avatar Soopermario 08:12 AM 02-16-2012
I had/have the same issue with my 51D6900. Faces to redish and tried "skin tone". Sometimes it helps, sometimes faces are undersaturated. So I left "skin tone" with the standard setting and tried other things and couldn't find a solution. This was before Logic and ADC. Now faces are better, but not perfect and my solution is now to live with a bit less color saturation. The redish faces I only had in SD not with HD content.
zoyd's Avatar zoyd 08:14 AM 02-16-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny31390 View Post

Zoyd, would you recommend calibrating before or after this panel tweaking? Or rather calibrating before AND after?

The tweak does not affect color/grayscale but it does affect near black gamma so if you calibrate before you will have to recalibrate gamma after. Also make sure you have brightness set properly before and after.
zoyd's Avatar zoyd 08:20 AM 02-16-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soopermario View Post

Thanks Collusion for your reply. So how much will it cost me if the Samsung Tech Guy says my set is ok and don't need adjustment?

I thought Plasma should have a better black level than LCD, but mine doesn't. Thats because I like to know how I can tell with my eyes that my black levels are to high?
My Picture look like it has a grey haze over it. Even on daylight the blacks look not black enough.
I can't imagine that a Plasma-TV is so bad at black levels.

I don't think any tech will do this officially, maybe find a buddy who is good with such things and for the price of a couple of beers you get good blacks! (tweak before the beers).

It's hard to tell the difference between say 0.007 and 0.015 ftL without side-by-side comparison, a meter, or lot's of experience. A display with a very good black level will be hard tell that it's on in a moderately lit room.
Soopermario's Avatar Soopermario 08:43 AM 02-16-2012
Thank you Zoyd. So then the difference is barely noticeable, I don't know if my black levels are as yours before the tweak.

I looked at your 2 black pictures and on my cheap MVA-Panel I saw only black. But then I changed brightness with Photoshop (same amount for both pics) the difference is very noticeable for me.
I can't take a picture of my black levels, because they would not look like they are to me, on another display.
When I turn on my D6900 I can see the light blacks even in a bright room.

Good tip with the beer
FieldingMelish's Avatar FieldingMelish 08:07 PM 02-16-2012
What size plastic screwdriver is needed for setting these small knobs? Is the screwdriver a Radio Shack kind of product?

I downloaded the Samsung pdf from Zoyd's first post and am hoping that the YRR pot is easy to spot on my D517000. Once that back is off the TV, I'd feel compelled to limit the time spent fiddling with it. Like open heart surgery, lol.

I hope the stand does not prevent taking the back off. That stand is a bear to remove. I had that experience when Samsung sent me a replacement stand when I complained how dented mine was upon delivery. Screws are self-tapping into the body of dense plastic and deep surroundings can prevent extracting a loosened screw. I tried all kind of workarounds getting the last screw out; using a very sticky tape on the end of a screwdriver helped.
yuria's Avatar yuria 02:09 PM 02-17-2012
Hi,

Can i modify this tv to support 50 HZ signals?
hungro's Avatar hungro 04:36 PM 02-17-2012
I also would like to know how do I get my hands on the plastic screwdrivers. What other precautionary measure do you recommend we use Zoyd working in the back of the tv?
zoyd's Avatar zoyd 06:10 PM 02-17-2012
This is the type of thing you should use for adjusting the trim pots, I'm not sure if radioshack carries similar or not. Main precautions to take is not to rush, have plenty of space to work and don't touch any of the boards. Even if the power is off you can zap a chip with static discharge if you touch it.

The back of the TV comes off without removing the stand. Don't forget to remove the screw and cover around the power cord and then you can slide the back off along the cord.
zoyd's Avatar zoyd 06:16 PM 02-17-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuria View Post

Hi,

Can i modify this tv to support 50 HZ signals?

Have you tried 50Hz signals with it? I know the European sets handle both 60Hz and 50Hz. If that doesn't work you could put a European mainboard in it and that should work.
Tags: Samsung Pn51d8000 51 Inch 1080p 3d Ready Plasma Hdtv 2011 Model
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