Abandoning LCD for Plasma? In serious need of help... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 02-01-2012, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello everyone,

(sorry if I didn't post that in the right section: new here and that forum came with really high recommendations for my problem).

I need the opinion of serious plasma experts out there, which is why I ended up here.

Long story short regarding my current TV: I have an LCD Sharp Aquos 60E88UN and this was my very first HD display after 32 years. I'm mostly gaming on it and watch the occasional Bluray, nothing else. Took many months to shop before choosing this one and everything was fine since last year. But about 2-3 months ago I started to notice motion blur on the screen, even with the 120/240 effect on. Not mentioning the artifacts created around moving objects (especially FPS, around your gun/character), and also the ''judder'' that happens when I deactivate the 120/240 effect (so basically getting a problem by trying to eliminate another).

For the past couple of weeks I did numerous research on the net and even though I visited countless websites and reviews I just can't get the straight facts it seems, there is always a contradiction somewhere or from someone. I want to get rid of the problems above completely, I want to find a display that has ZERO motion blur problems and can handle motion perfectly like our old CRTs from before, keeping the image clean with no loss of details.

From what I read it seems that LCDs/LEDs have those problems I mentioned above and that plasma technology, even though I turned my back on that when shopping for my first HD display (shame on me I know), might hold the answer to my nightmare. I say nightmare because since I noticed the motion blur and/or judder in my games and movies it seems I'm focusing more and more on that and it's driving me crazy.

I just don't really know what to do anymore and before I start shopping for a new display I need to get the straight facts for Plasma technology once and for all. Is it true that my problems I mentioned above will ''go away'' if I go with Plasma because they have a way much faster response time? Are there any known problems with the quality of the image or affecting motion that are specific to plasma displays? No need to mention IR, I don't really believe in that anymore unless you work really hard for it it seems...

Any serious help and comments/opinions, no matter if good or bad, would be extremely appreciated from this poor fella who is starting to lose interest in all his games and movies because of that...
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post #2 of 17 Old 02-01-2012, 05:31 PM
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I think with a proper break in period and common sense gaming (avoiding extended periods with static HUDs, health bars etc.) that a plasma is indeed your answer depending on your viewing/gaming environment. If you have lots of windows or ambient light you may not like the reflections.

Personally I have a Pioneer Elite 940 42", Panasonic TH-50PX80U 50" and Panasonic GT30 55" and have gamed with my Xbox 360, PS3 and Wii on all 3 with no ill effects. I have been limiting it on my GT30 for now as it's still pretty new and only has a couple hundred hours on it.

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post #3 of 17 Old 02-01-2012, 06:44 PM
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Hmm... Are you sure something hasn't changed / gone wrong with your display? I find it surprising that you would suddenly 'notice' something like that.

To answer your question: plasma has the unique ability to offer good motion resolution WITHOUT introducing lag. Generally with LCD you'd have to pick one or the other. Now, plasma still isn't perfect-- it's still possible you'll see trailing or artifacts around fast moving objects but the chances of it happening on plasma are less than LCD.
Of course, I find the best way to avoid issues is to play games that output at 60 frames per sec. At 60Hz even my ancient Olevia LCD displays motion like a champ!

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post #4 of 17 Old 02-01-2012, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't think something went wrong or changed with my display: I think it's more like my eyes really adjusted and got used to see true HD (don't forget, first HD display for me in 32 years) and since it's been over a year the ''wow'' factor is gone. I think I started to really noticed how an LCD is handling a picture or motion, and I really don't like it since I never, EVER noticed that in on our CRTs, the blurry effect I mean (or judder when 120/240 is turned off). I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong here when I say that CRT, although old and ''from the past'', could really keep all the details in a fast/moving scene without introducing noticeable blur and loss of details (or so minimal that even the human eye can't see it?).

When you say that it's still possible I'll see trailing or artifacts around fast moving objects but the chances of it happening on plasma are less than LCD, do you mean like it depends of the brand or the ''quality'' of the TV itself? Or that would be something that is there no matter which Plasma I'll buy?

Already started to look online for one and so far I have the Panasonic S30 line in mind and the the LG V400 series (I'm aiming for 60-65 inches). From what I understood those are the ''value'' model in their respective line... I don't have a big buget it's true (2000$ and less), but if I have to stretch it a bit over 2k to score the ultimate one that will make me happy so be it.

Keep the suggestions, opinions and ''teachings'' coming, really appreciated! Feel free to give me as much details as possible on how plasma really work from your experience and from what you eyes saw/are seeing, no matter good or bad I know a couple of things already but it's better to double check that I was actually ''taught'' right from everything I saw and read.

EDIT: Ok that is awesome I just found an animation online that is showing EXACTLY what I see with my eyes when playing my games since the past couple of weeks (no the games I played are not coded with motion blur as a special effect). On the left is exactly what I'm experiencing, on the right is the result I am looking for (and what I remember from my gaming days with a CRT).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Animation2.gif
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post #5 of 17 Old 02-01-2012, 10:15 PM
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If you like CRT then chances are you'll like plasma. Both create images in essentially the same way: by exciting phosphors on the displays surface at an imperceptible frequency. LCD, on the other hand, creates it's image in a fundamentally different manner: the actual LCD acts as a little shutter that either allows or denies light coming from the source behind the screen.
The problem with LCD is that as the frame rate drops so does the perception of motion. This is why you see buzz words like 120/240 Hz. By keeping the refresh rate high-- often by interpolating (read: faking) frames between the actual content frames-- you can avoid the perception of loss of motion. Of course, the processing isn't perfect and so lag and artifacting enters the equation...
This all hinges on the source. Play Call of Duty (which runs at 60 fps) on even a 60Hz LCD and the motion looks great!

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post #6 of 17 Old 02-01-2012, 10:52 PM
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I have had a rear projection tv, an lcd and now a plasma. I was very anti plasma because of the problems. now I am a true believer in that its the best set. the lcd was good, but it had some brightness problems. i own the panasonic 50gt25. its a wonderful set and the black on black is just awesome. I am still amazed on how good the PQ is to this day.

Jacob
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post #7 of 17 Old 02-01-2012, 11:33 PM
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When you say that it's still possible I'll see trailing or artifacts around fast moving objects but the chances of it happening on plasma are less than LCD

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post #8 of 17 Old 02-01-2012, 11:59 PM
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Nothing is going to handle motion just like a crt. Plasma however is the closest of todays technologies.
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post #9 of 17 Old 02-02-2012, 04:50 AM
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I cannot really comment on your problem but I will say I'm a recent "Plasma Convert" coming from LCD. Our 2009 Sony Z series got damaged and had to go shopping for a new one. I was set on a LED (Sony or Samsung) and plasma wasn't even a choice. As far as I knew Plasmas were energy hogs, didn't last long and had other issues. Two hours in B.B with the Magnolis main person I left sold on Plasmas. I did more research and of course came here for more answers.


In short Plasma has grown and developed better over the last couple of years. The PQ of mid level models can almost compete with higher end LEDs. The units have shrunk in size (thickness), enegy usage down and costs are close to 30% less of comparable size of LED's. It has some cons just like LED's have cons. I use ours with equal amount of time with AT&T, Blu-ray and gaming (still breaking in...around 42 hrs or so). I honestly cannot see me going back to LCD/LED based on what I've learned on Plasma and what I've seen.
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post #10 of 17 Old 02-02-2012, 05:57 AM
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Just a side note:

Plasma shows judder worse than LCD because of the lack of blurring. Just keep that in mind - movies are filmed with judder, and that's part of the movie itself. Any attempt to smooth it out only ruins the "intended" cinema experience.

Until movies are filmed at higher frame rates (soon enough, I'm sure), get used to it. Games that run at 60fps look amazing all the time on any display, it seems.

Once you spend some time with a plasma, you're not likely to ever want an LCD again. It's a night and day difference, especially for the things you're looking for.

=Tommy v2=
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post #11 of 17 Old 02-02-2012, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Dr.DTS: When you say that you would never go back to LCD/LED based on what you've seen with Plasma, can you give me more details? Like your opinion with PQ, motion, anything!

For the judder: so it's actually going to be worst than LCD/LED? I don't understand here... Isn't supposed to be better motion and less loss of details since the Plasmas answer faster than LCD/LED display-wise? What am I missing here?

So far just from what I saw on the net (will have to go shop soon) it seems my choices are Panny S30 or ST30, the LG V400 (or another line) and a Samsung (have to check their models more)... Now I saw plenty of comments on the net from people always referring to Panasonic as the ''king'' of Plasmas out there... Your view on that guys? Any recommandations or maybe warnings to stay away from X model or X brand?

Again thanks a lot for the answers, comments and opinions. This is really important for me since that technology is still very new to me and want to make sure that the next time I drop cash on a new TV it will be the good one for a long, long time (5 years or so).
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post #12 of 17 Old 02-02-2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Just a side note:

Plasma shows judder worse than LCD because of the lack of blurring. Just keep that in mind - movies are filmed with judder, and that's part of the movie itself. Any attempt to smooth it out only ruins the "intended" cinema experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urobulus View Post

Dr.DTS: When you say that you would never go back to LCD/LED based on what you've seen with Plasma, can you give me more details? Like your opinion with PQ, motion, anything!

For the judder: so it's actually going to be worst than LCD/LED? I don't understand here... Isn't supposed to be better motion and less loss of details since the Plasmas answer faster than LCD/LED display-wise? What am I missing here?


Some things that need to be cleared up: Movies are NOT "filmed with judder."

Movies are filmed at 24 fps. This doesn't match the refresh rate of any TV. In the past, with NTSC video running at 29.97 FPS, a process called 3-2 pulldown was required to convert the film stream to match your TVs refresh rate. In that process, frames were doubled and tripled in a set pattern to fill in the gaps. That introduces motion artifacts.

With progressive scan HDTVs, you can display 24p content if your TV's refresh rate is a multiple of 24 (and if your TV supports 24p native signals). If it's running at 120hz, then each frame of the 24p signal can simply be shown 5 times in a row, which eliminates the weird artifacts caused by 3-2 pulldown.
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post #13 of 17 Old 02-02-2012, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serial_carpens View Post

Some things that need to be cleared up: Movies are NOT "filmed with judder."

I'm not specifically referring to asynchronous judder from telecine conversion - I'm sure the average person would define judder as what they see in movies when there are slow pans - choppy framerate. That IS built into the film itself - nothing besides CFI is going to fix that. My thought was that plasma shows judder more, because the lack of motion blur doesn't hide the low frame rate in movie pans.

I go to the movies all the time. There is tons of judder on all panning scenes - that's just how it is. It's not a bad thing - I wouldn't personally get rid of it.

=Tommy v2=
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post #14 of 17 Old 02-02-2012, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

I'm not specifically referring to asynchronous judder from telecine conversion - I'm sure the average person would define judder as what they see in movies when there are slow pans - choppy framerate. That IS built into the film itself - nothing besides CFI is going to fix that. My thought was that plasma shows judder more, because there lack of motion blur doesn't hide the low frame rate in movie pans.

I go to the movies all the time. There is tons of judder on all panning scenes - that's just how it is. It's not a bad thing - I wouldn't personally get rid of it.

Gotcha. I didn't even think of that...good point.
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post #15 of 17 Old 02-02-2012, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmmm... Interesting... What about games in HD on the PS3 or 360? Same amount of ''judder'' that you're going to see or it's usually not as bad as movies? Just not sure if games and movies look the same or different because the technology/format is different...

One thing that's been bugging me also: that 120/240 refresh rate that LCD/LED have... Do plasma have that awful option too? What I saw with my eyes (like explained above) is that is does indeed smooth out the motion on my LCD (well any I saw) but introduces bad amount of blur and that 1080p movie you are watching just falls to 480p resolution/quality during any fast action scene (or anything moving at all actually)... Now since Plasmas handle motion better my guess is that they don't have that kind of extra option?

Still shopping on my side and will go see the Panasonic ST30 and GT30 tomorrow at the store, really curious about them now...
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post #16 of 17 Old 02-02-2012, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urobulus View Post

Hmmm... Interesting... What about games in HD on the PS3 or 360? Same amount of ''judder'' that you're going to see or it's usually not as bad as movies? Just not sure if games and movies look the same or different because the technology/format is different...

One thing that's been bugging me also: that 120/240 refresh rate that LCD/LED have... Do plasma have that awful option too? What I saw with my eyes (like explained above) is that is does indeed smooth out the motion on my LCD (well any I saw) but introduces bad amount of blur and that 1080p movie you are watching just falls to 480p resolution/quality during any fast action scene (or anything moving at all actually)... Now since Plasmas handle motion better my guess is that they don't have that kind of extra option?

Some of them do, I know the VT30's have it and it's called Motion Smoother. It does frame interpolation and does indeed smooth a lot of jerky (straight from Hollywood) pans. It also induces the dreaded 'soap opera effect' which I don't care for a lot. I've seen SOE on some LCD's that was so bad it'd about give me a headache, it's more subtle on the Pannys.
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post #17 of 17 Old 02-02-2012, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urobulus View Post

Dr.DTS: When you say that you would never go back to LCD/LED based on what you've seen with Plasma, can you give me more details? Like your opinion with PQ, motion, anything! :.


This is just my opinion but yes, based on what I've seen comparing sets in the store (taken with a grain of salt by the way) and what I'm seeing now compared to our Sony Z5100 that was damaged....I can see the difference. I've thrown seveal different movies at the GT30 the last few days and the PQ is remarkable. Again the Sony was a 2009 model but I'm seeing better shrapness, detail, depth, color and motion on the Plasma period.


It's safe to say many use Avatar as a guide and I put it in as my first test. Now I've seen the movie 6-7 times, once in the threater. I saw the overall best detail I've seen yet on the plasma. By the way I'm using Dave_O's settings.. Not night & day difference but several steps above the Sony. I just picked up the new Transformers 3D disc and I'm looking forward to this test.
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