Official Panasonic ST50 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 330 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9871 of 10079 Old 12-08-2013, 04:52 AM
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I'm beginning to think this is just a perceptual illusion. Issue 1: a certain game I play actually displays a dark grey screen during a certain menu. It's *supposed* to be grey; I had thought it was supposed to be black.

This led to Issue 2: I started closely inspecting the screen when it had no signal, in a darkened room. In this scenario a dim glow does emanate from the screen, but I'm beginning to think that this has always been so; because when it's displaying actual program content, the blacks look black as normally. I guess I need contrast to perceive the black as such? Hm.

I really wish I had measured my panel's output when it was new, just to satisfy my inner neurotic, but I think this was a false alarm. Derp.

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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post #9872 of 10079 Old 12-08-2013, 05:20 AM
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Granted it would've been easier to just come right out and provide the requested information free of sarcasm, condescension, and out right rudeness if that was your 'point'. Kindness need not apply

Well played Bond...well...played.
It wouldve been even easier to not respond at all. Or I could have just been sarcastic, condescending and outright rude and still not given you any help. Look on the bright side.

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post #9873 of 10079 Old 12-08-2013, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

I'm beginning to think this is just a perceptual illusion.
I really wish I had measured my panel's output when it was new, just to satisfy my inner neurotic, but I think this was a false alarm. Derp.
Glad to hear it. I hope thats the case.

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post #9874 of 10079 Old 12-08-2013, 12:56 PM
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Glad to hear it. I hope thats the case.

Yeah. Watching Pacific Rim for the first time right now... 'sgorgeous biggrin.gif

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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post #9875 of 10079 Old 12-08-2013, 02:03 PM
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Yeah. Watching Pacific Rim for the first time right now... 'sgorgeous biggrin.gif
I just saw that recently myself. I hope youre watching it in 3d. Awesome!

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post #9876 of 10079 Old 12-08-2013, 11:11 PM
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I'm still having problems with game mode. While playing battlefield 4, i've been switching back and forth between Cinema and Game mode and i'm noticing quite a bit more detail and better colors in Cinema mode. I would love to know if this is a problem that can be calibrated out. Here are some things im seeing. Look at the differences between the detail seen in cinema and game mode. In game mode, you can't even really see how many enemies are in a building due to the way the colors are shown, everything just blends together. I know this is nitpicking but when you spend 1200$ on something, i feel like you're allowed to be nitpicky with it.

My settings in Game Mode are
Contrast - 77
Brightness- 57
Color-43
Sharpness - 40
Color Temperature - Warm 1

Cinema Mode settings are
Contrast - 77
Brightness - 55
Color - 49
Sharpness - 0
Color Temperature - Warm 1






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post #9877 of 10079 Old 12-09-2013, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Powers16 View Post

I'm still having problems with game mode. While playing battlefield 4, i've been switching back and forth between Cinema and Game mode and i'm noticing quite a bit more detail and better colors in Cinema mode. I would love to know if this is a problem that can be calibrated out. Here are some things im seeing. Look at the differences between the detail seen in cinema and game mode. In game mode, you can't even really see how many enemies are in a building due to the way the colors are shown, everything just blends together. I know this is nitpicking but when you spend 1200$ on something, i feel like you're allowed to be nitpicky with it.

My settings in Game Mode are
Contrast - 77
Brightness- 57
Color-43
Sharpness - 40
Color Temperature - Warm 1

Cinema Mode settings are
Contrast - 77
Brightness - 55
Color - 49
Sharpness - 0
Color Temperature - Warm 1







I just haven't been able to get the perfect pic out of game mode yet, regardless of how I calibrate with test patterns etc. I've settled on 74 contrast(bringing the contrast down to approriate levels is the best start, it is so blown out on this mode). Brightness at 56 and colour 43 along with warm 2 has yielded as close to a perfect pic I can get on that mode. Of course using d nice settings on custom or Razhel on the larger screen models will yield the best picture but you will sacrifice a wee bit input lag. If you can live with it stay off the game mode. I can't so I continue to use it.
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post #9878 of 10079 Old 12-09-2013, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by gomess023 View Post

I just haven't been able to get the perfect pic out of game mode yet, regardless of how I calibrate with test patterns etc. I've settled on 74 contrast(bringing the contrast down to approriate levels is the best start, it is so blown out on this mode). Brightness at 56 and colour 43 along with warm 2 has yielded as close to a perfect pic I can get on that mode. Of course using d nice settings on custom or Razhel on the larger screen models will yield the best picture but you will sacrifice a wee bit input lag. If you can live with it stay off the game mode. I can't so I continue to use it.

I would use Custom mode if I were you. More light output. Contrast looks off in VG though.

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post #9879 of 10079 Old 12-09-2013, 10:45 AM
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I definitely WANT to use a different picture mode than Game Mode but from where I've been switching back and forth, I can now tell that it does have the least input lag out of all of the modes. Cinema mode and Custom mode definitely feel like there is a "delay" when playing a game like Battlefield 4. Maybe i could just get use to it though. I would like to know if having Best Buy calibrate the TV, both Custom and Game mode, would solve the picture quality issues though? Maybe the way the tweak things in the service menu might possibly help?
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post #9880 of 10079 Old 12-09-2013, 11:18 AM
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It's strange, I don't perceive Custom Mode's lag even slightly in online shooters--the display-induced lag is utterly swamped by network lag and network lag correction code in games like those--although I definitely can sense that the display lag is noticeable and harmful in local, non network fighting games.

I also never found a Game Mode setting that didn't make my eyes barf. I dunno man, have you actually tried playing your shooters online? I suspect the impact on an FPS will be smaller than you expect. Plus no eye-barf.

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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post #9881 of 10079 Old 12-10-2013, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

It's strange, I don't perceive Custom Mode's lag even slightly in online shooters--the display-induced lag is utterly swamped by network lag and network lag correction code in games like those--although I definitely can sense that the display lag is noticeable and harmful in local, non network fighting games.

I also never found a Game Mode setting that didn't make my eyes barf. I dunno man, have you actually tried playing your shooters online? I suspect the impact on an FPS will be smaller than you expect. Plus no eye-barf.

That's the things I professionally play competitive online shooters mainly cod,bf4 and halo. The lag will only be noticed by some one if they play online and is used to as little il as possible. When my bro plays and he's plays them religiously just not professionally like me he doesn't notice any differences between the modes. Anyone that wants to use the other modes trust me you'll be fine unless you are an OCD freak like me. When I play games that's aren't fps or online I always use dnice settings but the contrasts bumped up a tad to 78, isn't seems a little dark at times. Game mode to me looks worse on the xbox one, I have no idea what ms did this time it's like they took there already messed up gamma curve on the 360 and multiplied it by 10. Everything is a crushing black, jaggy mess besides ryse and forza(this ones just a jaggy mess). On the ps4 I let rally have no complaints, game mode works perfectly fine nothing looks messed up etc. today I was playing killzone and was trying to notice jaggies on purpose to see what kind of AA the games uses, couldn't find any jaggies.

Brings me to my other questions. For the people that game on custom settings whether using Razhel, dnice or their own settings, do you guys do anything under the gamma option for the st50? Mine is set at 2.6 I have a 50 inch version running dnice reference settings but sometimes it seems like it too dark. Does it matter for different sizes of the display I know some use 2.4 for Razhel settings. Anyone that uses dnice did you make changes that seem to look better for gaming?
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post #9882 of 10079 Old 12-10-2013, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

It's strange, I don't perceive Custom Mode's lag even slightly in online shooters--the display-induced lag is utterly swamped by network lag and network lag correction code in games like those--although I definitely can sense that the display lag is noticeable and harmful in local, non network fighting games.

I also never found a Game Mode setting that didn't make my eyes barf. I dunno man, have you actually tried playing your shooters online? I suspect the impact on an FPS will be smaller than you expect. Plus no eye-barf.

I fully agree. My ST50 was professionally calibrated via Custom Mode and I experience limited or no lag on my panel with fps. The blue tint in game mode looks bad imo. I also noticed that next gen games like Ryse and Forza look much better and more realistic via my calibrated custom mode than on game mode.
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post #9883 of 10079 Old 12-10-2013, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by gomess023 View Post

That's the things I professionally play competitive online shooters mainly cod,bf4 and halo. The lag will only be noticed by some one if they play online and is used to as little il as possible. When my bro plays and he's plays them religiously just not professionally like me he doesn't notice any differences between the modes. Anyone that wants to use the other modes trust me you'll be fine unless you are an OCD freak like me. When I play games that's aren't fps or online I always use dnice settings but the contrasts bumped up a tad to 78, isn't seems a little dark at times. Game mode to me looks worse on the xbox one, I have no idea what ms did this time it's like they took there already messed up gamma curve on the 360 and multiplied it by 10. Everything is a crushing black, jaggy mess besides ryse and forza(this ones just a jaggy mess). On the ps4 I let rally have no complaints, game mode works perfectly fine nothing looks messed up etc. today I was playing killzone and was trying to notice jaggies on purpose to see what kind of AA the games uses, couldn't find any jaggies.

Brings me to my other questions. For the people that game on custom settings whether using Razhel, dnice or their own settings, do you guys do anything under the gamma option for the st50? Mine is set at 2.6 I have a 50 inch version running dnice reference settings but sometimes it seems like it too dark. Does it matter for different sizes of the display I know some use 2.4 for Razhel settings. Anyone that uses dnice did you make changes that seem to look better for gaming?
I definitely found DNice's setting too dark for comfortable gaming but that was when I had my RGB bandwidth and color spaces mismatched, also my gamma at 2.6.

Since switching to "non-standard" and "wide," etc., in all inputs (XBox and PS3) and on my TV, I haven't had the overwhelming crush problem. I still favor gamma 2.4 though, even for movies.

For anyone interested, a good test for me was TellTale's The Walking Dead games. It features a lot of low light details that get crushed if your gamuts (is that the word?) are unmatched or for any other reason your picture is hiding itself in darkness.

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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post #9884 of 10079 Old 12-10-2013, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

Custom Mode's lag .

I had not noticed it until we put up a pinball game on the TV (go humble bundle!). The feel of the flippers was very slightly off. It drove me nuts. I switched to game mode and it fixed the issue. I think that's about as tight a response requirement as you could look for in a game.

Other games we did not notice it so much.
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post #9885 of 10079 Old 12-16-2013, 02:24 PM
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I noticed you guys talking about game vs custom mode. I actually like using game mode but I think it is because I want to limit lag, maybe a mental thing. The one thing I noticed though when I do switch it to my custom mode is that without the sharpness turned up certain text looks bad to me. I basically just copied my dnice custom mode settings to my game mode, however, without turning up the sharpness I feel text on the main screen and especially in BF4 is blurry (Xbox one). Do you guys who use your custom mode with sharpness set at 0 see this? It looked off to me and then I bought BF4 and the area where you look at your online stats looks so blurry unless I turn it up to at least 50 sharpness

thoughts?
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post #9886 of 10079 Old 12-17-2013, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by outlanderbz View Post

I noticed you guys talking about game vs custom mode. I actually like using game mode but I think it is because I want to limit lag, maybe a mental thing. The one thing I noticed though when I do switch it to my custom mode is that without the sharpness turned up certain text looks bad to me. I basically just copied my dnice custom mode settings to my game mode, however, without turning up the sharpness I feel text on the main screen and especially in BF4 is blurry (Xbox one). Do you guys who use your custom mode with sharpness set at 0 see this? It looked off to me and then I bought BF4 and the area where you look at your online stats looks so blurry unless I turn it up to at least 50 sharpness

thoughts?

Meh game mode does seem a tad blurrier. I keep it at 0 still. Anyone know a proper pattern to configure sharpness settings? For game mode
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post #9887 of 10079 Old 12-18-2013, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by outlanderbz View Post

I noticed you guys talking about game vs custom mode. I actually like using game mode but I think it is because I want to limit lag, maybe a mental thing. The one thing I noticed though when I do switch it to my custom mode is that without the sharpness turned up certain text looks bad to me. I basically just copied my dnice custom mode settings to my game mode, however, without turning up the sharpness I feel text on the main screen and especially in BF4 is blurry (Xbox one). Do you guys who use your custom mode with sharpness set at 0 see this? It looked off to me and then I bought BF4 and the area where you look at your online stats looks so blurry unless I turn it up to at least 50 sharpness

thoughts?

This is the exact issue that I was having with the Xbox 360 and PS3 on Game Mode and posted many pages ago. I use subtitles in most SP games because it's pretty common that I have to play video games with too much external noise, and they looked horrendous. It's certainly less noticeable on the Xbox One (since the games were designed to run at a higher resolution to begin with), but it is still there.

I keep my Custom settings matched with DNice's (with 1 or 2 variations), and then have my Game settings tweaked all over the place so it is as similar to the Custom setting as possible - I just only use Game Mode if I'm playing online. It's not a big deal to switch back and forth since they are right next to one another in the menu, but it's what I've ended up doing to gain those few extra milliseconds when necessary.
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post #9888 of 10079 Old 12-18-2013, 09:14 AM
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This is the exact issue that I was having with the Xbox 360 and PS3 on Game Mode and posted many pages ago. I use subtitles in most SP games because it's pretty common that I have to play video games with too much external noise, and they looked horrendous. It's certainly less noticeable on the Xbox One (since the games were designed to run at a higher resolution to begin with), but it is still there.

I keep my Custom settings matched with DNice's (with 1 or 2 variations), and then have my Game settings tweaked all over the place so it is as similar to the Custom setting as possible - I just only use Game Mode if I'm playing online. It's not a big deal to switch back and forth since they are right next to one another in the menu, but it's what I've ended up doing to gain those few extra milliseconds when necessary.

I would be curious to see your game mode settings. I can grab mine tonight and post them. as for sharpness I know I have messed with 0-67. seems like some games need it as high as 67 and some are okay with down to 0. I hate changing things based on content which makes things like that annoying to me. I know thats why these TV's and AVR have all these settings is to set them to the best depending on content but it annoys me, lol
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post #9889 of 10079 Old 12-18-2013, 12:23 PM
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I would be curious to see your game mode settings. I can grab mine tonight and post them. as for sharpness I know I have messed with 0-67. seems like some games need it as high as 67 and some are okay with down to 0. I hate changing things based on content which makes things like that annoying to me. I know thats why these TV's and AVR have all these settings is to set them to the best depending on content but it annoys me, lol
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Originally Posted by outlanderbz View Post

I noticed you guys talking about game vs custom mode. I actually like using game mode but I think it is because I want to limit lag, maybe a mental thing. The one thing I noticed though when I do switch it to my custom mode is that without the sharpness turned up certain text looks bad to me. I basically just copied my dnice custom mode settings to my game mode, however, without turning up the sharpness I feel text on the main screen and especially in BF4 is blurry (Xbox one). Do you guys who use your custom mode with sharpness set at 0 see this? It looked off to me and then I bought BF4 and the area where you look at your online stats looks so blurry unless I turn it up to at least 50 sharpness

thoughts?

I'll see if mine have changed much since the last post.

It will vary from game to game. On Ryse, I don't need any sharpening whatsoever on any mode, it's a tiny bit blurrier than a true 1080p game (because it is 900p), but from 6-8 feet away the difference isn't so bad I have to sharpen. On Dead Rising and BF4 (both 720p) the blurriness is much more noticeable and they both use the Xbox One's ridiculously horrible scaler, so the blacks are crushed beyond all hell as well - there's this really fine line that you will have to adjust around between the Gamma in the game settings, your Brightness and Contrast settings, your Color settings (so that the colors on Game Mode aren't bleeding like in previously posted images), the Gamma on the TV, and the Sharpness on the TV. The scaler really turns the whole "configuring game mode" a nightmare.

For Ryse, I just use Custom. For Dead Rising and BF4, I use Game mode. I hate adjusting the details between games, but if I can switch between Custom and Game and then not adjust the details I'll live with it.

I think once games are actually pushing 900p or 1080p this won't be an issue at all and I'll just re-tweak Game mode to be one permanent setting, but while these games are using the Xbox One's scaler and are low-HD res it's going to continue to be an issue (unless/until Microsoft updates the scaler).


I'd look toward March for a huge Xbox One update. Titanfall launches mid-March if I'm not mistaken, and since it's the "killer app" that people are waiting for I think there will be a massive update that fixes a lot of things (Party System, Achievement App, etc) that we are having issues with.
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post #9890 of 10079 Old 12-22-2013, 10:16 AM
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I was reading the Official Panasonic VT50 forums about input lag on that panel as well. Someone in that thread talked about how he was able to reduce the input lag in custom mode by disabling Viera Link and bluetooth settings. I disabled Viera Link and tested this myself and it DOES seem to reduce input lag enough in custom mode to make games playable in that mode. This may be strictly placebo effect happening here but it really did feel like it made a difference. Could anyone else test this as well? And does anyone know how to disable bluetooth on the ST50?
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post #9891 of 10079 Old 12-29-2013, 07:08 PM
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This is something I've been trying to figure out for a year. Unfortunately gamma is way off in game mode requiring really high brightness to remedy, that kills black levels. I do have tips to help you all get "closer" to where you want to be.

HDMI Content Type - Switch it to "Graphics". Off or Auto are blown out way too much and Photos seems to lower saturation. Graphics seems best to me. This only seems to affect game mode to my eye, so no need to switch it when going back to custom for normal tv viewing. This will be your biggest aid in getting close to cinema. Give up trying to match Custom because it won't happen due to the wildly different gamma. Cinema should be your target.

My other settings are -

Contrast 79
Brightness 56
Color 45
Sharpness 0
Tint 0

Let me know what you think.
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post #9892 of 10079 Old 12-30-2013, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by deathrattlehead View Post

This is something I've been trying to figure out for a year. Unfortunately gamma is way off in game mode requiring really high brightness to remedy, that kills black levels. I do have tips to help you all get "closer" to where you want to be.

HDMI Content Type - Switch it to "Graphics". Off or Auto are blown out way too much and Photos seems to lower saturation. Graphics seems best to me. This only seems to affect game mode to my eye, so no need to switch it when going back to custom for normal tv viewing. This will be your biggest aid in getting close to cinema. Give up trying to match Custom because it won't happen due to the wildly different gamma. Cinema should be your target.

My other settings are -

Contrast 79
Brightness 56
Color 45
Sharpness 0
Tint 0

Let me know what you think.

Iunno if it's just me but everything seems to look a little better. What kind of sorcery is this? Are you using warm 2 or 1? And any other changes you make?
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post #9893 of 10079 Old 12-30-2013, 03:20 AM
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Using Warm 2, sorry. I think it helps by changing the gamma and bringing it closer to where it should be. Test it out by picking an object in a game, and switching between Graphics and Auto/Off. In certain circumstances you'll see a night and day difference on the spot. When you see the change, put your tv back in custom and toggle Graphics/Auto/Off, and you'll see there's no perceivable change. Can you tell I really want game to look good? Lol. This is the first tv I've ever really felt input lag on, so being forced to use Game has driven me crazy due to the calibration limitations.
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post #9894 of 10079 Old 12-30-2013, 07:53 AM
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Sorry for asking this if this has been asked in an earlier post (read 30 latest pages of comments) and atleast I didn't see the answer to this:

Is it possible to set the RGB Range to full or nonstandard (whatever it is called on a Panny plasma) on a European ST50? I can't find the option for it, nor the option for HDMI Content Type. If the answer is NO, is it possible to go into the Service Menu (how do you go into it?) and change the settings there to enable RGB Range and HDMI Content Type?
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post #9895 of 10079 Old 12-30-2013, 02:37 PM
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Actually just tried using photos rather than graphics and was able to get it close to custom with a gamma of 2.2. So I'm sticking with photos for now.
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post #9896 of 10079 Old 12-30-2013, 06:40 PM
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Did you change any of your picture settings when you changed from Graphics to Photos?
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post #9897 of 10079 Old 12-30-2013, 09:01 PM
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Yeah so I spent last night, probably about 2 hours changing graphics/auto/off back and forth. Theres a Huge difference when you do it on game mode. It goes from extreme to natural like it should be. Looks almost identical to cinema mode. In killzone 4 during a fire scene there's a drastic difference. With graphics mode it looks just like custom and cinema, you can see al the details. With graphics mode off you just see minimal details and bright orangish red for fire. I suggest anyone using game mode to tinker with deathrattleheads setup. It's a night and day difference. Now off to spending the next 2-3 hours tinkering with graphics/photo.

Deathrattleheads what consoles are you using btw to test?
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post #9898 of 10079 Old 12-30-2013, 09:05 PM
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I haven't played with game mode much before now, because it looked like crap and I couldn't get the picture quality I wanted, so I soon gave up. However, I hadn't ever messed around with the HDMI settings either.

Playing on Xbox One, I started playing around with my settings. Game mode absolutely crushes blacks regardless of what I do with brightness/contrast, so I thought the RGB settings might make a difference. My X1 is set to "RGB limited", and in Custom mode with my TV's RGB range set to "Auto", it looks right. In Game mode "Auto" looks terrible, but setting it to "nonstandard" is maybe the best I've ever seen on Game mode.

Anyone else want to try this and make sure I'm not crazy?

To summarize my results:
Xbox set to RGB Limited
Custom mode + Auto/standard = correct
Custom mode + nonstandard = washed out
Game mode + Auto/standard = high contrast, crushed blacks
Game mode + nonstandard = correct?
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post #9899 of 10079 Old 12-30-2013, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gomess023 View Post

Yeah so I spent last night, probably about 2 hours changing graphics/auto/off back and forth. Theres a Huge difference when you do it on game mode. It goes from extreme to natural like it should be. Looks almost identical to cinema mode. In killzone 4 during a fire scene there's a drastic difference. With graphics mode it looks just like custom and cinema, you can see al the details. With graphics mode off you just see minimal details and bright orangish red for fire. I suggest anyone using game mode to tinker with deathrattleheads setup. It's a night and day difference. Now off to spending the next 2-3 hours tinkering with graphics/photo.

Deathrattleheads what consoles are you using btw to test?

I use a PS3, PS4, XBox One and Wii U. The Xbox One crushes blacks on its own with certain games. Dead Rising 3 really gets crushed. Doesn't make it easier for us, that's for sure. Neogaf has a whole thread dedicated to the Xbox crushing blacks and adding artificial sharpening to 720p games.
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post #9900 of 10079 Old 01-01-2014, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powers16 View Post

Did you change any of your picture settings when you changed from Graphics to Photos?

Contrast 79
Brightness 54
Color 50
Tint 0
Sharpness 0
Warm 2
All else set to Off.
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