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post #31 of 52 Old 03-17-2012, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by David_B View Post

I'm wondering why you think the LG or Samsung OLED's, if they come out this year, wouldn't be best display of 2012.... easily?

On paper they are. However 1st gen of any tech does not have a track record of be the best.
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post #32 of 52 Old 03-17-2012, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by lghaze42 View Post


I have a 2008 Panasonic 800U THX plasma and have used THX mode since day one.I have watched Scott Pilgrim and my picture does not look washed out.My home theater room is dark day or night with no lights to bother the pic.I guess if you like a pic that glows, get a cartoon network certified Samsung not a ThX certfied panel.I am getting a VT50 this summer and moving the 800U to my bedroom to use as my pc monitor.

THX on the 800U is COMPLETELY different compared to the GT30.
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post #33 of 52 Old 03-18-2012, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

On paper they are. However 1st gen of any tech does not have a track record of be the best.

That and OLED displays have a bit of a nasty issue that still has to be resolved. It's called the MURA effect which basically shows up as splotches on blacks when viewing a OLED display in a dark room. The problem comes from polysilicon backplanes as they do not provide a uniform current resulting in different power being sent to the pixels causing differences in voltages. If you own a phone for example, take it into a dark room with a black screen up and you'll see the splotches.
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post #34 of 52 Old 03-18-2012, 06:33 AM
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Tried this on my Epic 4G, didn't see any splotches.

But then again, my phone cost much more to build then the $250 PSVITA which most people are complaining about.

PS, not everyone is seeing these on their PSVITA either.

Maybe it's not such a huge problem after all.

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Originally Posted by vaxick View Post

That and OLED displays have a bit of a nasty issue that still has to be resolved. It's called the MURA effect which basically shows up as splotches on blacks when viewing a OLED display in a dark room. The problem comes from polysilicon backplanes as they do not provide a uniform current resulting in different power being sent to the pixels causing differences in voltages. If you own a phone for example, take it into a dark room with a black screen up and you'll see the splotches.


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post #35 of 52 Old 03-18-2012, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by JRoX85 View Post

THX certs have nothing to do with a tv's pq after Proper calibration TO YOUR PERSONAL RESIDENCE. All they are is a stamp saying we have certed this tv in perfect pitch black conditions in our lab so that you as a consumer will pay more money for the tv. Stop being a fanboy jumping on the same old coal train and broaden your views on tv's. I have both a sammy and a panny and enjoy them both in different lighting schemes.

If a tv is THX certified it means you are getting as close as possible the same pic seen in the film studio.Samsung has yet to have a THX certified panel.I can think of so many products the Japanese have invented but the Koreans slip my mind.You don't get to be the worlds largest electronics corp in the world by making junk.Plus Panasonics usually cost more than Samsung so if you are trying to save a dollar....you get what you pay for.
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post #36 of 52 Old 03-18-2012, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I don't know of anyone who can actually put a Kuro and a Panasonic side by side and say the motion on the Panasonic is visibly better.

Kuro? No.

But I had a Samsung D550 and a Panasonic G30 in my room for about a week when I suffered from the European Samsung software problems.
I ran them in clone mode while I had been waiting for a buyer for the Samsung to make sure I don't make a bad decision with this switch. (And I usually have some decent CE or pro LCD displays around, coming and going...)

And I dare to say that the Samasung handled the motion definitely better!

The Samsung was able to render relatively smooth gradients on static dark scenes and keep up this decent dithering illusion with some amount of motion. And even when the motion got too fast, the Samsung still showed something acceptable. There was some resolution loss but the moving image was still sharp enough and precise enough (the gradation also suffered for some extent but the artifacts were not too obvious).

This Panasonic shows obvious gradient banding on static dark images to start with and it's close to a disastrous result while in motion. And even brighter images can reveal some amount of disturbing "false contouring" with either 1080p24 or real 1080p60 (not deinterlaced but rendered as progressive, like video games). The Samsung wasn't flawless, but the Panasonic is much worse in this.

(I must add that the VT30E is much better in this. It's close or even slightly above the Samsung levels. But the "cheaper" [Hah! This G30 is actually more expensive on the absolute scale than the D550...] Panasonics are definitely worse.)


And there is something else about motion handling which I can not truly express in words. But for me, motion picture (either 1080p60 or 1080p24@96Hz) feels slightly better on the Samsung PDPs.
May be it's about the mild flickering of the Panasonics which I usually don't see but that does not mean my brain is not aware of it. (And I also see it consciously on random occasions.)
And also there is this strange thing... The 0% black backgrounds or very dark images often look like they are built up form interlace scanlines. I don't really know where to put that but I am sure it also effects how I feel the motion.


So the 1080i60 motion resolution test video may say it has more lines of motion resolution than how many lines it physically has for static images (1080+, LOL). But there is definitely some room for improvements around motion handling!
I still miss this since I sold the Samsung (but that one had to go for other reasons...).

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post #37 of 52 Old 03-18-2012, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lghaze42 View Post


If a tv is THX certified it means you are getting as close as possible the same pic seen in the film studio.Samsung has yet to have a THX certified panel.I can think of so many products the Japanese have invented but the Koreans slip my mind.You don't get to be the worlds largest electronics corp in the world by making junk.Plus Panasonics usually cost more than Samsung so if you are trying to save a dollar....you get what you pay for.

THX doesn't mean you get as close as possible, it means that you have hit their standards. That doesn't mean you are closer than any set with or without it, just that you've met a standard. That THX logo also costs money to put on your product so you could easily say by getting a Samsung you aren't paying for a logo but for picture quality. I don't know which set is better but do know the THX logo doesn't tell you one way or another.

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Displays Editor, AnandTech.com
Contributor, HDGuru.com and Wirecutter.com
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post #38 of 52 Old 03-18-2012, 12:15 PM
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If the THX certification would work as nicely in practice as intended than it could mean something.
Now it assures you that the device has a reasonably configured factory preset mode.


By the way, I miss the early rumors about the VT50. I could already see and measure one if I really wanted to. But I am not that interested to use up all the favors I could ask. I don't think I will buy that anyway.

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post #39 of 52 Old 03-18-2012, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Tried this on my Epic 4G, didn't see any splotches.

But then again, my phone cost much more to build then the $250 PSVITA which most people are complaining about.

PS, not everyone is seeing these on their PSVITA either.

Maybe it's not such a huge problem after all.

It's on every one, you just have to know how to look for it. It's better you don't know how to find it. You have to be in a very specific environment to spot them. It has been around long before the Vita ever existed, it just didn't get as much notice until then because it's a bit simpler to spot when you're playing a game.

And no, the Vita and the Epic 4G both use a Samsung built Super AMOLED Plus display. There is no difference in quality of displays. If you think Samsung phones are somehow void of this, you're more than welcome to Google the countless discussions of people spotting this on their Samsung phones. Or be more broad and you'll find topics about this on every AMOLED based phone. As I said, it takes a very specific environment to see this.
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post #40 of 52 Old 03-18-2012, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vaxick View Post


It's on every one, you just have to know how to look for it. It's better you don't know how to find it. You have to be in a very specific environment to spot them. It has been around long before the Vita ever existed, it just didn't get as much notice until then because it's a bit simpler to spot when you're playing a game.

And no, the Vita and the Epic 4G both use a Samsung built Super AMOLED Plus display. There is no difference in quality of displays. If you think Samsung phones are somehow void of this, you're more than welcome to Google the countless discussions of people spotting this on their Samsung phones. Or be more broad and you'll find topics about this on every AMOLED based phone. As I said, it takes a very specific environment to see this.

What I have seen is a lot of people taking a digital photo of a screen and using a photo editing program to pump up different settings to make something you can't see with the naked eye viewable.

And I DID look at mine in complete darkness with a black screen and I am sorry to tell you I saw nothing of those blobs that the people using photoenhancement show.

Lets see your display that has this problem.

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post #41 of 52 Old 03-18-2012, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

On paper they are. However 1st gen of any tech does not have a track record of be the best.

Excellent point. I'm amazed at how optimistic people are about the OLED displays. The OLED on my Galaxy Nexus is crap for instance, even though it sounds much better than an LCD on paper. I'm guessing that just like any new technology, it will take some time before they get it right. Plus, aren't the first OLED TVs going to be +$10,000? I'm certainly excited for OLED, but I think people are going to have to be a bit more patient.
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post #42 of 52 Old 03-18-2012, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vaxick View Post

That and OLED displays have a bit of a nasty issue that still has to be resolved. It's called the MURA effect which basically shows up as splotches on blacks when viewing a OLED display in a dark room. The problem comes from polysilicon backplanes as they do not provide a uniform current resulting in different power being sent to the pixels causing differences in voltages. If you own a phone for example, take it into a dark room with a black screen up and you'll see the splotches.

I have this on my Samsung Galaxy S2 Epic 4G. It is only noticeable on a completely black picture in 100% dark lighting, and you have to let your eyes adjust for a few seconds to see it, but it's definitely there. I could see it being annoying on a tv though. I read somewhere that one of the possible reasons you see this on a phone is because the screen has to have a very small voltage sent to it at all times, for quick touch sensitivity reasons (the digitizer is bonded to the AMOLED I believe) and because it would drain too much power having to constantly turn the display on and off. I was surprised to see that the backlight doesn't completely turn off on an all black screen like I kept hearing that OLED does. If this is the case it shouldn't be an issue with tvs since they are always plugged into the wall and you don't touch them.

http://forum.xda-developers.com/show....php?t=1320942

http://forum.xda-developers.com/show...6&postcount=27

http://forum.xda-developers.com/show...2&postcount=23

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post #43 of 52 Old 03-18-2012, 07:14 PM
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Yeah that MURA effect is horribly evident on my Galaxy Nexus for ALL solid colors, especially white. It only disappears at very high brightness. I'm very skeptical about OLED TVs, but we'll see.
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post #44 of 52 Old 03-22-2012, 08:00 PM
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Is the TC-P65ST50 better than the TC-P65VT30? Due to the increase in picture quality from 2011 to 2012. I ask because I see that the ST50's are available online already , but I can actually get a VT30 for a tad less. So price being equal , which one is the better performer?
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post #45 of 52 Old 03-22-2012, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mikeprice1976 View Post

is the tc-p65st50 better than the tc-p65vt30? Due to the increase in picture quality from 2011 to 2012. I ask because i see that the st50's are available online already , but i can actually get a vt30 for a tad less. So price being equal , which one is the better performer?

st50
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post #46 of 52 Old 03-22-2012, 08:12 PM
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st50

Wow , wasn't very hard to dethrone 2011's flagship plasma then.
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post #47 of 52 Old 03-22-2012, 08:16 PM
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Wow , wasn't very hard to dethrone 2011's flagship plasma then.

the main issue which was never fully corrected on the VT30 was the color decoding which apparently is much improved on the ST50
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post #48 of 52 Old 03-22-2012, 08:50 PM
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What'll be interesting to see is if the 65ST50 and the 65VT50 end up having the same mll. I think the target is supposed to be around .0025 ft/L for the larger models on the ST50. Maybe the 65VT50 hits .002 ft/L- although it would be nice if it gets to .001...

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post #49 of 52 Old 03-22-2012, 09:06 PM
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What'll be interesting to see is if the 65ST50 and the 65VT50 end up having the same mll. I think the target is supposed to be around .0025 ft/L for the larger models on the ST50. Maybe the 65VT50 hits .002 ft/L- although it would be nice if it gets to .001...

@gmarceau

How are you enjoying your 500m so far? I am looking at getting an st50 for the bedroom shortly. I haven't gotten the vibe yet to take my 500m out of my main viewing area yet. If the Vt50 turns out to be a killer set, I may consider it.
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post #50 of 52 Old 03-23-2012, 07:43 AM
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@gmarceau

How are you enjoying your 500m so far? I am looking at getting an st50 for the bedroom shortly. I haven't gotten the vibe yet to take my 500m out of my main viewing area yet. If the Vt50 turns out to be a killer set, I may consider it.

It's been wonderful so far. The picture amazes me a lot. It's a really clean picture, too. This is the closest I've ever seen to that look my old XBR960 had- although this beats it in so many ways. The funny thing is, I feel my old ST30 was about 75% of this Kuro. I'm just basing that on having watched the same movies on both panels. Just my opinion.

I would definitely like something bigger with equal or better blacks to my 500m, so that makes me think maybe a VT60 would get close.

What surprised me is how low apl scenes still make letterbox bars look slightly grey at times, even at this low of a luminance level. On a 0IRE signal, I can easily make out that the screen is on, although it's far reduced from anything I've ever seen. It's pretty close to flush black- only my 960 could have me guessing if the thing was on or off. But we don't watch black screens

The only other thing would be more light output in pure mode so that I could watch this thing during the day (room is very sunny). I guess that ISF patch still exists, so maybe that could solve it. Put in some pure mode settings and found the ones I like best. From what I've heard, calibrated pure mode is equal to that of a calibrated ISF mode.

Anyway, I myself would probably be more interested in looking at 2013 models and seeing what that produces. This is provided that Panasonic keeps things going in this new direction. It's like they got derailed since 2009 when they went eco and it's taken 3 years to get them back to where they should have been. With a 500m, I don't feel this need to upgrade, since the picture is so satisfying.

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post #51 of 52 Old 03-23-2012, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

It's been wonderful so far. The picture amazes me a lot. It's a really clean picture, too. This is the closest I've ever seen to that look my old XBR960 had- although this beats it in so many ways. The funny thing is, I feel my old ST30 was about 75% of this Kuro. I'm just basing that on having watched the same movies on both panels. Just my opinion.

I would definitely like something bigger with equal or better blacks to my 500m, so that makes me think maybe a VT60 would get close.

What surprised me is how low apl scenes still make letterbox bars look slightly grey at times, even at this low of a luminance level. On a 0IRE signal, I can easily make out that the screen is on, although it's far reduced from anything I've ever seen. It's pretty close to flush black- only my 960 could have me guessing if the thing was on or off. But we don't watch black screens

The only other thing would be more light output in pure mode so that I could watch this thing during the day (room is very sunny). I guess that ISF patch still exists, so maybe that could solve it. Put in some pure mode settings and found the ones I like best. From what I've heard, calibrated pure mode is equal to that of a calibrated ISF mode.

Anyway, I myself would probably be more interested in looking at 2013 models and seeing what that produces. This is provided that Panasonic keeps things going in this new direction. It's like they got derailed since 2009 when they went eco and it's taken 3 years to get them back to where they should have been. With a 500m, I don't feel this need to upgrade, since the picture is so satisfying.

The 500m definitely makes you feel no rush to upgrade, that's for sure. Going bigger is always a thought which leads me to looking at a vt50 possibly. I would definitely recommend getting the isf patch and having it calibrated in day and night mode. My favorite is still a calibrated pure mode. I don't want to hijack this thread with kuro talk, just wanted to see how you were enjoying the 500m. Your response was about what I expected.
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post #52 of 52 Old 03-24-2012, 01:35 AM
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You left out Samsungs peeling screens. I'm not a Panasonic fan boy ( don't even own anything panny), I want the best TV (Plasma), but Samsungs quality scares me. I've not had good luck with anything Samsung ever. I almost bought the Samsung Plasma last year after the shootout results, but I was still scared with the physical quality , so I held out. Also can someone confirm dithering is not present with the Sammy's? I don't know so its a question

Don't hate on Samsung a few years ago they were really doing it right. I bought both sizes of the 2009 flagship, the un46b8500 and the un55b8500 (family room + bedroom). This was the very last time Samsung made a full array local dimming lcd set. And let me tell ya video images have the most incredible contrast and pop on this screen. It's just a pleasure for the eyes to look at and they have worked flawlessly for years for me and they get a lot of use. Motion is also clear and outstanding no ghosting very fast pixels on this close to even plasma speed with the clarity of motion on this (but no matter what you do to lcd the pixels will always be faster on plasma but lcd can get fast enough to where your eyes can't see the speed difference anymore.)

But you are right, that was 3 years ago and was really the last time samsung actually took picture quality very seriously. Now all they care about is blingin the tv's out and making the aesthetics look so cool and ofc do a bunch of gimmicky crap like the gesture controls and cheapening out on the actual picture quality aspects. Unfortunately the whole industry seems to be moving that way. Huge lose for us consumers. To keep costs down manufactures have to choose where they want to spend component money at, the design and aesthetic appearance or the actual image displaying hardware. Sadly they seem to go with the former more often than not. Now I wouldn't mind having both of those aspects but if I had to only have one or the other than just give me a 10" fat depth panel with chunky cheap plastic and a fat plastic bezel but put in amazing zero black technology plasma panels or crystal led panels or oled panels just some amazing image display capabilities and I'd buy it all day even though it looks like crap as far as aesthetics.
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