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post #181 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 12:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by realzven View Post

as usual

I give up, who are you?
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post #182 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

Don't get me wrong- you'd obviously want the least amount of input lag that you can possibly get, but if we're talking about "which 2012 Plasma TV is best for gaming" I'd argue that worrying about ~10ms of input lag is kind of silly. And those are the kinds of differences we're talking about these days. You're right to go with wired controllers over wireless though. USB has to be significantly faster than whatever RF protocol Microsoft is using.

One HUGE advantage about Plasma in general, IMO, is they produce a much better picture (and much more shadow detail) vs. LCD with a comparable latency. The Samsung UNxxD8000 I had looked great until I put it in "game mode", which is when the picture took a nosedive. However without putting it in "game mode" it was unplayable.

As a side note- were you at MLG Orlando? I was there last year. For Starcraft though .

The difference in this 10ms of lag is that it crosses past 16.6, which is one frame. In competitive gaming, that one frame makes a difference, especially in rhythm and fighting games. I was hoping that there would someday be a large, full-featured TV with less than a frame of lag, but I doubt it will ever happen. My questions would be if there is an improvement in VGA mode, and was "Game" mode used, and what was the difference?

All display reviewers: TEST INPUT LAG! Gamers want good TVs, too!
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post #183 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by NSCTripleAgent View Post


The difference in this 10ms of lag is that it crosses past 16.6, which is one frame. In competitive gaming, that one frame makes a difference, especially in rhythm and fighting games. I was hoping that there would someday be a large, full-featured TV with less than a frame of lag, but I doubt it will ever happen. My questions would be if there is an improvement in VGA mode, and was "Game" mode used, and what was the difference?

16.6 isn't accurate if you're looking at the display only. You'd actually want the number far lower than that, since you still have to factor in all of the input lag induced by the controller, USB A/D encode/decode (even worse if you're using RF), and any processing done by the console itself. When you add it all up, I don't think any display will make up the difference to get you under 16.6 ms, total.

Calibration Equipment:

Meters: X-rite i1 Pro 2, X-rite i1 Display Pro

Software: Spectracal Calman DIY, ControlCAL

 

Televisions:

Panasonic TC-P65VT50 (currently own)
Samsung UN55D8000 (returned) Calibration and Settings Thread

 

Plasma IR Removal:

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post #184 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by realzven View Post

review of the UK 50VT50 by david mackenzie from HDTVtest
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...1204101757.htm

Man that review has me a bit skittish because of the brightness issue. I am now more anxious than ever to see if it's resolved for the US models. My room isn't super bright but at some time of the day it can be fairly bright.

Cant wait for d-nice to get his hands on one for extensive testing
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post #185 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by realzven View Post

review of the UK 50VT50 by david mackenzie from HDTVtest
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...1204101757.htm

Good review. Their reviews are far more accurate than CNET's.
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post #186 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by vincevega44 View Post

Good review. Their reviews are far more accurate than CNET's.

More detailed maybe, but CNET's reviews have traditionally been pretty accurate, IMO.

Calibration Equipment:

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Software: Spectracal Calman DIY, ControlCAL

 

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Samsung UN55D8000 (returned) Calibration and Settings Thread

 

Plasma IR Removal:

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post #187 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 05:01 PM
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CNET is okay from a general high level, but they will get some of the details (i.e. some of the calibration results) wrong at times.

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post #188 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 05:32 PM
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I think I will stick with getting a GT50.

Indecision may or may not be my problem.
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post #189 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 06:10 PM
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CNET (the US version, not the international variants which don't seem to do calibrations) is a great review site if you ask me.
The straightforward way that David Katzmaier expresses the findings without compromising on the calibration details was something I was particularly influenced by - example, Sony LED LCDs, "Darker areas of the picture are tinged blue" (paraphrased).

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post #190 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by lyris View Post

CNET (the US version, not the international variants which don't seem to do calibrations) is a great review site if you ask me.
The straightforward way that David Katzmaier expresses the findings without compromising on the calibration details was something I was particularly influenced by - example, Sony LED LCDs, "Darker areas of the picture are tinged blue" (paraphrased).

Ah yes, international CNET is pretty bad. Their review of Samsung's D8000/D7000 had little to say about uniformity issues, while Katzmaier tore the TV apart for it.

Calibration Equipment:

Meters: X-rite i1 Pro 2, X-rite i1 Display Pro

Software: Spectracal Calman DIY, ControlCAL

 

Televisions:

Panasonic TC-P65VT50 (currently own)
Samsung UN55D8000 (returned) Calibration and Settings Thread

 

Plasma IR Removal:

Post 1 - Post 2 - Post 3

 

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post #191 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

Ah yes, international CNET is pretty bad. Their review of Samsung's D8000/D7000 had little to say about uniformity issues, while Katzmaier tore the TV apart for it.

Katzmaier is pretty good IMO. All TV reviewers may have their own preference differences one way or the other but thats why we have multiple sites
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post #192 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 06:41 PM
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Ah yes, international CNET is pretty bad. Their review of Samsung's D8000/D7000 had little to say about uniformity issues, while Katzmaier tore the TV apart for it.

The international variants seem to be subjective reviews rather than scientific ones. World of difference. I don't understand why the US version is the only one doing scientific reviews.

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post #193 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 09:37 PM
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I was wondering if the VT50 brightness cap had anything to do with the C.A.T.S. feature. I didn't notice if they mentioned turning it off in the review, but I just skimmed it.
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post #194 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 09:46 PM
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IMO, Cnet is often a bit biased and sometimes has to be pushed by forum members to do the right thing.

I'll be very surprised if Katzmaier says anything that sounds like the following: Needless to say given the length we're discussing this subtlety at, we feel that this image enhancement is fundamentally misguided, especially on a flagship product operating with Professional and 1080p Pure Direct modes turned on. This is doubly so when there is a very similar, cheaper offering (the ST50) from the same manufacturer that is less affected. Even although the picture quality is still excellent, we feel Panasonic should be admonished for even flirting with this, because we worry that it could be the start of a slippery slope - we've seen otherwise capable panels spoiled by undefeatable image processing in the past, and we hope that Panasonic don't ever get to that level. Perhaps they'll consider our suggestion of having the 1080p Pure Direct mode turn this feature off with a later firmware version.

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post #195 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 09:57 PM
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Panasonic don't put forward as strong a case for upgrading to this flagship display as they could have done, because the VT50 series can't produce as bright an image as the cheaper ST50, when set to its best picture modes - something we really think that the company should address for VT50 owners.

Is this true for US version of VT50?
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post #196 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

Ah yes, international CNET is pretty bad. Their review of Samsung's D8000/D7000 had little to say about uniformity issues, while Katzmaier tore the TV apart for it.

He said they were the best he'd ever tested. He then updated his review a month later saying: "Since I gave the Samsung PND7000 and PND8000 plasma TVs excellent reviews, I've seen questions and comments referring to a pair of widely reported issues with the TVs: brightness pops and screen peeling.

I don't consider either issue a big enough deal to spoil my initial excellent impressions of these TVs, and here's why."


I don't consider that tearing the tv apart, did I miss something?

Any bets that he'll either not mention or be soft on the problems owners are experiencing with Samsung this year?

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post #197 of 284 Old 04-10-2012, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

16.6 isn't accurate if you're looking at the display only. You'd actually want the number far lower than that, since you still have to factor in all of the input lag induced by the controller, USB A/D encode/decode (even worse if you're using RF), and any processing done by the console itself. When you add it all up, I don't think any display will make up the difference to get you under 16.6 ms, total.

This is correct. The current crop of consoles never reach below ~60ms, even the basic OS interfaces have that much lag. "Good" 60FPS titles match that benchmark (~60ms), some add an extra frame here and there, poorer ones add several frames. 30FPS (and worse) titles are always in the 100ms-150ms range, but some stinkers reach to 200ms and higher. I'm going off memory here, so values are all rounded. If you're interested in the exact values and methods Eurogamer and Digital Foundry have done multiple stories on this. On a related note, PS Vita also has an ass load of input lag. Uncharted Golden Abyss is largely unplayable with the analog sticks, 120fps camera tests have pegged it at ~160's-200ms. It and GTA4 are the worst and most noticeable games I've ever played in the lag department.

*Edit* Here and here are a couple of the articles.
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post #198 of 284 Old 04-11-2012, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I just read Adrian's posts. I did not see anything regarding issues measuring MLL. I did see some nice MLL numbers for the E6500 I'll have one for testing within the next week/week and a half.

sorry for the OT , D-Nice any news of the E6500 ?
thanks
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post #199 of 284 Old 04-11-2012, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post


He said they were the best he'd ever tested. He then updated his review a month later saying: "Since I gave the Samsung PND7000 and PND8000 plasma TVs excellent reviews, I've seen questions and comments referring to a pair of widely reported issues with the TVs: brightness pops and screen peeling.

I don't consider either issue a big enough deal to spoil my initial excellent impressions of these TVs, and here's why."

I don't consider that tearing the tv apart, did I miss something?

Any bets that he'll either not mention or be soft on the problems owners are experiencing with Samsung this year?

Doh! I'm sorry. I was talking about the UND8000/7000 (the LCDs).

Calibration Equipment:

Meters: X-rite i1 Pro 2, X-rite i1 Display Pro

Software: Spectracal Calman DIY, ControlCAL

 

Televisions:

Panasonic TC-P65VT50 (currently own)
Samsung UN55D8000 (returned) Calibration and Settings Thread

 

Plasma IR Removal:

Post 1 - Post 2 - Post 3

 

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post #200 of 284 Old 04-11-2012, 09:35 AM
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Quote from insider thread on HDJ from AVJ "Engineering tells me no such output light limitations on vt this year in NA. Obviously I can't confirm myself just what I'm told."

Mike

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post #201 of 284 Old 04-11-2012, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by wmwilker View Post

Quote from insider thread on HDJ from AVJ "Engineering tells me no such output light limitations on vt this year in NA. Obviously I can't confirm myself just what I'm told."

That's a good source of info.

We can certainly hope. So many sets have burned my hopes with a dealbreaker or two; I really don't want this to be one. The price is within range, the performance sounds good, etc. etc. I could see getting enough life out of it to last until a 3rd or 4th-gen OLED is out in a large-enough size at a good-enough price.

May it be so. I suppose we'll know in 6 weeks.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #202 of 284 Old 04-11-2012, 09:51 AM
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That's a good source of info.

We can certainly hope. So many sets have burned my hopes with a dealbreaker or two; I really don't want this to be one. The price is within range, the performance sounds good, etc. etc. I could see getting enough life out of it to last until a 3rd or 4th-gen OLED is out in a large-enough size at a good-enough price.

May it be so. I suppose we'll know in 6 weeks.

Yeah, I'll wait for the release and some reviews from those I trust and decide if I buy this year or wait till next.
The VT does sound impressive though.

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post #203 of 284 Old 04-11-2012, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Condor View Post

I was wondering if the VT50 brightness cap had anything to do with the C.A.T.S. feature. I didn't notice if they mentioned turning it off in the review, but I just skimmed it.

Good question, but no, it was done with CATS off. Turning it on cut the light output further in this room. Although now you have me wondering if we can get it to go brighter by turning CATS on and flashing a bright light at the sensor...

Nope, doesn't work...

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post #204 of 284 Old 04-11-2012, 04:52 PM
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Here is the HDTV review from April 10:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...1204101757.htm
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post #205 of 284 Old 04-11-2012, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmwilker View Post

Quote from insider thread on HDJ from AVJ "Engineering tells me no such output light limitations on vt this year in NA. Obviously I can't confirm myself just what I'm told."

Did he actually confirm that Panasonic capped the EU models?

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post #206 of 284 Old 04-11-2012, 05:31 PM
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The problem I have with the answer could be the question that was asked, since if his engineers stated that they didn't place a cap or restrict lighting on the EU models as well, then avj's answer doesn't really address our concerns.

He also stated the following a little later: "I didn't ask about eu stuff.Curious myself. Could be a few things."

The problem revealed in AVforms may not have been intentional.

I guess all that we can do is wait and see.

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post #207 of 284 Old 04-11-2012, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post


Did he actually confirm that Panasonic capped the EU models?

That was all that was said

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post #208 of 284 Old 04-11-2012, 08:53 PM
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"The difference in this 10ms of lag is that it crosses past 16.6, which is one frame. In competitive gaming, that one frame makes a difference, especially in rhythm and fighting games. I was hoping that there would someday be a large, full-featured TV with less than a frame of lag, but I doubt it will ever happen. My questions would be if there is an improvement in VGA mode, and was "Game" mode used, and what was the difference?"

FYI, I worked on many Xbox games while at Ubisoft and I can tell you that, insofar as the input lag of the wireless controller is concerned, it adds ~55 ms to the mic input. Probably similar to the overal lag, I would guess. But don't quote me on that. Lag is teh suckage, lower is better but one frame extra on your TV is not going to make a huge difference when it's already > 100ms, IMO.
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post #209 of 284 Old 04-11-2012, 10:09 PM
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Ok, this new review honestly is making me debate canceling my order. The same black levels as the ST50 isn't exactly exciting to hear and the fact it's brightness levels are low is another strike against it considering that was a feature that excited me.
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post #210 of 284 Old 04-11-2012, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmwilker View Post

That was all that was said

Actually, he followed up a few lines down with "I didn't ask about eu stuff.Curious myself. Could be a few things."

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