Official Panasonic GT50 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 265 - AVS Forum
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post #7921 of 9798 Old 03-14-2013, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Latinoheat View Post

There are many different video signals in use which are not the same resolution (neither are all of the displays), thus some form of resolution adaptation (video scaling) is required to properly frame a video signal to a display device meaning it's scales it to fit the screen but does not up convert the signal to 1080p other wise a 1080i or 720p signal would get up converted to 1080p and you would see a difference.

Up-conversion is a form of scaling and that is exactly what the TV does. The onboard scaler converts the signal to 1080p and displays it. This is also one of the weak points of the GTxx line. It does not handle 720p well and why most people who have the option choose to use an external scaler to process the signal to 1080p before it is sent to the GTxx rather than allow the GTxx's internal scaler to do the processing. You are absolutely correct that scaling / up converting a lower resolution signal will never have the detail of a 1080p recording but a carefully programmed video processor can absolutely make a better looking and less pixelated image than would achieved by "simple" pixel blocking.

Here is a little blurb that may help you out.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20070935-1/what-is-upconverting/
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post #7922 of 9798 Old 03-14-2013, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpollagi View Post

Up-conversion is a form of scaling and that is exactly what the TV does. The onboard scaler converts the signal to 1080p and displays it. This is also one of the weak points of the GTxx line. It does not handle 720p well and why most people who have the option choose to use an external scaler to process the signal to 1080p before it is sent to the GTxx rather than allow the GTxx's internal scaler to do the processing. You are absolutely correct that scaling / up converting a lower resolution signal will never have the detail of a 1080p recording but a carefully programmed video processor can absolutely make a better looking and less pixelated image than would achieved by "simple" pixel blocking.

Here is a little blurb that may help you out.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20070935-1/what-is-upconverting/

Thank for the info, I guess I did have up scaling and up converted mixed up. It's just when it its upscaled through my receiver , there is a big difference.

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post #7923 of 9798 Old 03-14-2013, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Latinoheat View Post


There are many different video signals in use which are not the same resolution (neither are all of the displays), thus some form of resolution adaptation (video scaling) is required to properly frame a video signal to a display device meaning it's scales it to fit the screen but does not up convert the signal to 1080p other wise a 1080i or 720p signal would get up converted to 1080p and you would see a difference.
If what you mean is that the TV can't make up for missing data in source material that isn't 1080i or 1080p then that's correct. I had a problem understanding what you wrote.

In the case of 1080i, the deinterlacing process done in the TV or other device should be identical to a 1080p transmission of the same data because all the data is there..

In the case of 720p (needs scaling) and 480i (needs deinterlacing and scaling), they must be converted to 1080p before they can be displayed. The image quality will be effected because there is less data to work with and the video processing needed does a lot of guessing. Therefore 480i converted to 1080p will never be mistaken for true 1080p, but some high quality SD DVDs come a lot closer than any broadcast SDTV because there is more data on a DVD.

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post #7924 of 9798 Old 03-14-2013, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

Well, my AVR doesn't even support it. I suppose that should have been my first stop.

... rolleyes.gif
What AVR do you have?

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post #7925 of 9798 Old 03-14-2013, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

My GT50 looks crisper and more detailed on all channels when my Tivo and TWC DVR are set to output at 1080i Fixed. Setting it to 720p Fixed softens the image a little and shows less detail.

I've actually compared the 720p broadcast channels (ABC & FOX) back to back between my Tivo's OTA Tuner (at 1080i Fixed) and the GT50's internal OTA Tuner (displaying native 720p) several times and the 1080i signal is definitely crisper and more detailed. Very noticeable difference when i switch back and forth.
How quick (or slow) does the GT50 change resolutions? My plan is to use Native on my TiVo.

I'm currently early in the research process for a new TV, so I appreciate y'all's input.
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post #7926 of 9798 Old 03-14-2013, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

I think the best approach for that isn't color. It's the menu itself. A simple fix is possible. Alternate places the menu comes out each time. I imagine that would make a pretty big difference.

good idea

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post #7927 of 9798 Old 03-14-2013, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

Well, my AVR doesn't even support it. I suppose that should have been my first stop.

... rolleyes.gif

I bought an avr to not upscale/convert or do any video processing to my input signal, so its a double esdge sword in a sense. I lack any upscaling from an hdmi input, which isn't too big of a deal. My avr can upscale component inputs etc...

There are a few AVR that allow you to pass through with no processing, but a lot don't let that happen, even your blu-ray source. That is BS!

I do think the AVR world is changing there attitude towards this and becoming smarter. or at least giving the user more options.

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post #7928 of 9798 Old 03-14-2013, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpollagi View Post

Up-conversion is a form of scaling and that is exactly what the TV does. The onboard scaler converts the signal to 1080p and displays it. This is also one of the weak points of the GTxx line. It does not handle 720p well and why most people who have the option choose to use an external scaler to process the signal to 1080p before it is sent to the GTxx rather than allow the GTxx's internal scaler to do the processing. You are absolutely correct that scaling / up converting a lower resolution signal will never have the detail of a 1080p recording but a carefully programmed video processor can absolutely make a better looking and less pixelated image than would achieved by "simple" pixel blocking.

Here is a little blurb that may help you out.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20070935-1/what-is-upconverting/
Just to be clear. You could call upconversion a form of scaling since upscaling is necessary to upconvert but the bottom line is that the GT does not upconvert anything. It only upscales. If you feed it a 720p signal you are viewing a 720p signal on a 1080p display. Nothing more. Upconverting involves changing the signals resolution. Upconverting a 480i signal to a 1080p signal for example. There are devices that will do this but no tv that I know of.

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post #7929 of 9798 Old 03-14-2013, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Your post is somewhat misleading. The GT does not upconvert anything. It only upscales.

ahhhh, makes more sense, I see I was getting my definitions mixed up.

I know from madVR making an SD image look great takes so much power its crazy....as in we are not there yet tech wise.

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post #7930 of 9798 Old 03-14-2013, 10:25 PM
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I'm very surprised by the amount of people that need equipment to upscale their video. I don't think I ever plug non hd content into my tv.
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post #7931 of 9798 Old 03-14-2013, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

I'm very surprised by the amount of people that need equipment to upscale their video. I don't think I ever plug non hd content into my tv.
Most people spend their money on equipment to upconvert. Not upscale. And are not really concerned about sd to hd. They are concerned with converting 480i-1080i to 1080p.

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post #7932 of 9798 Old 03-14-2013, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Most people spend their money on equipment to upconvert. Not upscale.
You know what I meant. I just used the wrong wording lol. Surprised so many need to up convert.
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post #7933 of 9798 Old 03-15-2013, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Keen View Post

How quick (or slow) does the GT50 change resolutions? My plan is to use Native on my TiVo.

I'm currently early in the research process for a new TV, so I appreciate y'all's input.
The GT changes resolution very quickly from 720p to 1080i and back. The delay is not noticeable on OTA broadcasts. Any noticeable delay would be from the TiVo or cable box when letting it change the resolution. Thats why most people set their cable box to output 1080i all the time. Because when the cable box switches back and forth it causes a delay.

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post #7934 of 9798 Old 03-15-2013, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

I'm very surprised by the amount of people that need equipment to upscale their video. I don't think I ever plug non hd content into my tv.

I have tonnes of DVD's I like to look at great as it can get. It looks pretty good on madvr, but I still think it can improve more, but gpu power is the limiting factor - I think.

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Originally Posted by ser_renely View Post

I have tonnes of DVD's I like to look at great as it can get. It looks pretty good on madvr, but I still think it can improve more, but gpu power is the limiting factor - I think.
If youre DVDs are 1080i and youre not getting 1080p with youre device, a blu ray player will upconvert them to 1080p. That is about as good as its gonna get right now as far as I know.

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I finally got around to playing with the upconversion on my Onkyo TX-NR809 last night. My first test was with material that I had saved on my DVR. The native signal for most of the movies I have stored on it are 1080i so I had the Onkyo upconvert the signal to 1080p. The difference was negligible with 1080i material although you could notice it cleaned the image up some. The big difference was taking 720p and converting it to 1080p. I’ve yet to try any native SD material but I plan to try that out tonight with some older movies I have on DVD.

There are so many options with the Onkyo I was amazed. It has its own calibrated ISF Day and Night settings that you can apply to any source or you can even customize the signal before it’s fed to the TV with your own settings. From what I played around with this feature I probably won’t touch the signal at all less upconverting. The modes seemed to really mess with colors etc. It would take me hours to explore all of these options and test them out.

My big problem now is getting my 2nd HDMI out (Onkyo) to actually work in my HDMI 1 slot on the TV. My plan was to have my main HDMI 1 out (Onkyo) upconvert all my Direct TV material to the ARC compatible HDMI 2 slot on the GT50. Then have my second HDMI 2 out (Onkyo) pass all my blu-ray, HTPC stuff native to the HDMI 1 slot on the GT50. I’m not even sure it’s possible and the manual is huge. I’ve got some reading and research to do.
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post #7937 of 9798 Old 03-15-2013, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

If youre DVDs are 1080i and youre not getting 1080p with youre device, a blu ray player will upconvert them to 1080p. That is about as good as its gonna get right now as far as I know.

But it's not a "True HD" 1080p image, like native BD is (1080p)....some BD discs are 1080i.

The BD player has to artificially make-up for the missing information.
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post #7938 of 9798 Old 03-15-2013, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by highdefav1 View Post

But it's not a "True HD" 1080p image, like native BD is (1080p)....some BD discs are 1080i.

The BD player has to artificially make-up for the missing information.

That's why it's called upconverting. Some players, AV receivers, etc. are better than others at doing it. The good ones will make that 1080i image a little cleaner then if you didn't do anything to it at all. Considering this series of TV's doesn't do great job with anything less than 1080i it's a good idea if you have the ability to upconvert...to do it before it hits the T.V.
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post #7939 of 9798 Old 03-15-2013, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by BDP33 View Post

That's why it's called upconverting. Some players, AV receivers etc. are better than others at doing it. The good ones will make that 1080i image a little cleaner then if you didn't do anything to it at all.

Agreed, some players processors are better than others. But again, not a true 1080p image...more like a fake one. And sometimes, the upconverted image looks worse than the native.

The way he made it sound is that one would have a 1080p image from a regular DVD, when it really isn't.
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post #7940 of 9798 Old 03-15-2013, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ser_renely View Post

I have tonnes of DVD's I like to look at great as it can get. It looks pretty good on madvr, but I still think it can improve more, but gpu power is the limiting factor - I think.
I used to. But then I sold them all for credit towards new movies. That and most of my movies are now offered on Netflix in hd. So I tend to use that.
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Originally Posted by highdefav1 View Post

Agreed, some players processors are better than others. But again, not a true 1080p image...more like a fake one. And sometimes, the upconverted image looks worse than the native.

The way he made it sound is that one would have a 1080p image from a regular DVD, when it really isn't.
That is correct. It will not be as good as an original 1080p image. It would be "enhanced" if you will. I think the confusion may lie in the way it was interpreted as much as the way that it sounded.

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post #7942 of 9798 Old 03-15-2013, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

If youre DVDs are 1080i and youre not getting 1080p with youre device, a blu ray player will upconvert them to 1080p. That is about as good as its gonna get right now as far as I know.

Aren't dvd movies usually 800x400 or there about?

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post #7943 of 9798 Old 03-15-2013, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

I used to. But then I sold them all for credit towards new movies. That and most of my movies are now offered on Netflix in hd. So I tend to use that.

I can't stream Netflix well where I live(overseas). From what I have seen on streaming, lately I would much rather the BD from a quality perspective.

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post #7944 of 9798 Old 03-15-2013, 09:25 AM
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I can't stream Netflix well where I live(overseas). From what I have seen on streaming, lately I would much rather the BD from a quality perspective.
Maybe it was your source? The quality on Netflix is down right amazing. Almost perfect. Off course blu ray would be the best option. I can't imagine anyone's Internet being able to stream an uncompressed blu ray title.
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Maybe it was your source? The quality on Netflix is down right amazing. Almost perfect. Off course blu ray would be the best option. I can't imagine anyone's Internet being able to stream an uncompressed blu ray title.

Can it handle DTS-HD?

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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Just to be clear. You could call upconversion a form of scaling since upscaling is necessary to upconvert but the bottom line is that the GT does not upconvert anything. It only upscales. If you feed it a 720p signal you are viewing a 720p signal on a 1080p display. Nothing more. Upconverting involves changing the signals resolution. Upconverting a 480i signal to a 1080p signal for example. There are devices that will do this but no tv that I know of.

That's what I was trying to say. biggrin.gif

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post #7947 of 9798 Old 03-15-2013, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by ser_renely View Post

Can it handle DTS-HD?
Netflix does not support lossless audio. DD 5.1 is the best you can get.

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post #7948 of 9798 Old 03-15-2013, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Just to be clear. You could call upconversion a form of scaling since upscaling is necessary to upconvert but the bottom line is that the GT does not upconvert anything. It only upscales. If you feed it a 720p signal you are viewing a 720p signal on a 1080p display. Nothing more. Upconverting involves changing the signals resolution. Upconverting a 480i signal to a 1080p signal for example. There are devices that will do this but no tv that I know of.

Once again please just read the CNet link I posted. The terms up-convert and up-scale are synonymous. It is impossible to upscale without upconverting just as it is impossible to upconvert without upscaling. Every 1080p TV on the market has this ability.
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Once again please just read the CNet link I posted. The terms up-convert and up-scale are synonymous. It is impossible to upscale without upconverting just as it is impossible to upconvert without upscaling. Every 1080p TV on the market has this ability.
I disagree. The article is concerning SD to HD and I dont know how much of that applies to the my point. 480p, 720p and 1080i are not SD. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

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post #7950 of 9798 Old 03-15-2013, 11:17 AM
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Can it handle DTS-HD?
I don't think so. I've only seen 5.1 as the highest available.
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