Why isn't the Panasonic VT50 better than the Kuro? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 59 Old 04-12-2012, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 View Post

I've got a 5080HD KURO (720p) and it kills most sets on the market today. Deep blacks, good enough whites, high dynamic range, excellent processing results in little noise/artifacting, excellent motion handling.

what exactly is noise and artifacting on a TV? I would assume noise is (putting it simply) the colors being slightly innacurate, poorly contained. Artifacting I have no idea.

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Originally Posted by Sonyboy View Post

I own a krp500m and it's just flat out an amazing display. Yes the blacks are very deep and the contrast(pop) is just off the charts. I don't see how a set can have more depth to the picture than this. I owned a Sony sxrd 50A3000 a few years back and it was an excellent set, but the kuro made it just look flat in comparison. It handles motion well and there is no content that it doesn't handle with pure grace. Whether it's direct tv, gaming, netfilx, and these babies were made for bluray period. They are great out of the box, but having them calibrated takes them to another level. It's just really excels in everything you want it to do, that's the best way I can describe it. Very natural cinematic look to the picture that I love as well.

Comparing that experience to the top plasma sets (or even the Sharp Elite) what is missing?

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post #32 of 59 Old 04-12-2012, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post



Hmmm...what happens to the SHARP ELITE if Best Buy goes under!



Ian


Best Buy wont be going anywhere anytime soon they will be around for at least a few more years. they have 1300 stores the need to downsize and the ceo was a clown...they will rearrange thier policiies and other things.. plus we would have no where to go look at product..
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post #33 of 59 Old 04-13-2012, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by upsfeedr View Post

Best Buy wont be going anywhere anytime soon they will be around for at least a few more years. they have 1300 stores the need to downsize and the ceo was a clown...they will rearrange thier policiies and other things.. plus we would have no where to go look at product..

agreed, best buy isn't going anywhere.
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post #34 of 59 Old 04-13-2012, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by upsfeedr View Post

Best Buy wont be going anywhere anytime soon they will be around for at least a few more years. they have 1300 stores the need to downsize and the ceo was a clown...

I guess only time will tell. BTW, I heard that when he was forced to resign he got very upset!







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post #35 of 59 Old 04-13-2012, 10:23 AM
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For me personally I prefer the slightly worse untinted blacks of the 2012 Panasonics. Calibrated colour accuracy, greyscale and gamma tracking should be about even between the KRP/Elite 9,5G Kuro and the 2012 Panasonics. If there is a difference then you only measure it through equipment. Video processing and scaling is excellent on both, only Samsung does better here.

Now the reason why I think the Panasonic 2012s are better:
- A lot less picture noise in 2D.
- Better motion, same as with video processing Samsung is the best.
- Lower inputlag in calibrated modes (16-24ms vs 65-71ms)
- More features (3D, Smart TV and streaming).
- Less powerdraw.

The last point should be taken in account as because of law and regulations current PDP manufacturers have to manufacture their PDP's with different materials and a fraction of the powerdraw. I'm sure if Panasonic, Samsung and even LG didn't have to make any compromises the Kuro would have been beaten some time ago.
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post #36 of 59 Old 04-13-2012, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsfeedr View Post

plus we would have no where to go look at product..

Fry's, Sears (if they don't go away), Starpower (D/FW area), MicroCenter carrys some TVs, Conn's... just a start.
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post #37 of 59 Old 05-16-2012, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by $$Buck-Naked$$ View Post

- Less powerdraw.

The last point should be taken in account as because of law and regulations current PDP manufacturers have to manufacture their PDP's with different materials and a fraction of the powerdraw. I'm sure if Panasonic, Samsung and even LG didn't have to make any compromises the Kuro would have been beaten some time ago.

I'm still regretting for not jumping on that 50" KRP-500m on ebay sold by BeachCamera for $1500 (with cash back and ebucks could have gone less than $1400). They went out of stock as soon as I was going to pull the trigger, but anyway, I think the less powerdraw can be solved by making 50" TVs. As far as the US is concerned, Panny is not selling their 50" VT50 here which I'm disappointed about. For some reason they think that Americans are size queens. OTOH, how would less powerdraw affect a display's black level and contrast? Panasonic could have equalled the Kuro's PQ a couple of years ago but the tech was just too expensive to implement so they thought they just have to slowly incorporate the technology. This way people will keep on upgrading their TV. It's all in the marketing. Perhaps the VT50 is the Kuro incarnate. We shall see.
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post #38 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by skidawgz View Post

I have no access to a Kuro to view a movie on it, everyone I know was scared of plasmas (or the price) back when they were available. Please clue me in on what else is unmatched with today's TVs.

Is it just simply TV prices, thickness, and energy consumption had to move down?

You're right. The things the Kuro doesn't do is widgets, 3d and it draws a bit more juice. The KRP and Signature models actually have great styling and compete with current models imo. And all the Pioneers look very elegant with that piano black finish.

But the Kuro "special sauce" is a combo of the black level and driving mechanisms (of which I don't completely understand) of which Panny only adopted some of. The PQ is just stunning. There is a depth to the PQ in Kuros that I don't see with other plasmas. I wish you could see one.

And everything works. There are no bugs, no color issues, no buzzing, no 24p issues, very IR resistant, they calibrate to perfection... and well-constructed to boot. I love the deep "click" my 500m makes when that beefy power supply turns on

So they are just a very fine product, just like that vintage stereo you've had forever but keeps chugging along and sounds better than anything currently in stores.
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post #39 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 01:27 AM
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Pixelation are mostly from the source

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post #40 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trem0lo View Post

You're right. The things the Kuro doesn't do is widgets, 3d and it draws a bit more juice. The KRP and Signature models actually have great styling and compete with current models imo. And all the Pioneers look very elegant with that piano black finish.

But the Kuro "special sauce" is a combo of the black level and driving mechanisms (of which I don't completely understand) of which Panny only adopted some of. The PQ is just stunning. There is a depth to the PQ in Kuros that I don't see with other plasmas. I wish you could see one.

And everything works. There are no bugs, no color issues, no buzzing, no 24p issues, very IR resistant, they calibrate to perfection... and well-constructed to boot. I love the deep "click" my 500m makes when that beefy power supply turns on

So they are just a very fine product, just like that vintage stereo you've had forever but keeps chugging along and sounds better than anything currently in stores.

They're pretty awesome- as a 500m owner myself. There is this advantage that local dimming gets in low apl scenes where black sections of the screen are completely black, while the 500m is damn close to all black, but it's still possible to see where the bezel and the tv meet. When it comes to ANSI contrast, the 500m/101fd destroys pretty much anything out there.

I can find the rare grey look to the screen in some really low apl material (opening of THOR, couple scenes in Pirates 3, and a scene in Braveheart, plus some other stuff in my collection) - insane, I know, but it can go blacker. I would think this would be harder to see with D-Nice's program that works on some of the sets to make the blacks even deeper, but unless it's fully off, OLED will satisfy the most picky videophiles with black.

Honestly, sometimes I prefer a less than accurate picture with more light output. The VT50 may have more contrast in mid to high apl scenes, though, so that would make it worth considering. The high dynamic range on the 2012 sets make it an interesting competitor for the best from Pioneer.

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post #41 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by $$Buck-Naked$$ View Post

Now the reason why I think the Panasonic 2012s are better:
- A lot less picture noise in 2D.

I don't see any noise with my 500m in pure mode, call me crazy. The image can actually be made incredibly sharp.

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post #42 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 04:43 AM
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i`m waiting VT50 for upgrading from my pioneer

Guys you make stop thinking about it !!
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post #43 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 04:46 AM
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there is no pixelization on HDTV..to be more accurate it is a Grainy picture and kuro does have it a little bit
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post #44 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

I don't see any noise with my 500m in pure mode, call me crazy. The image can actually be made incredibly sharp.

It certainly has some PWM noise, though less than the 'non-elite' models. Even if you sit far enought not to see the sparkling whites the static resolution is not among the best.
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post #45 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonyboy View Post

I own a krp500m and it's just flat out an amazing display. Yes the blacks are very deep and the contrast(pop) is just off the charts. I don't see how a set can have more depth to the picture than this. I owned a Sony sxrd 50A3000 a few years back and it was an excellent set, but the kuro made it just look flat in comparison. It handles motion well and there is no content that it doesn't handle with pure grace. Whether it's direct tv, gaming, netfilx, and these babies were made for bluray period. They are great out of the box, but having them calibrated takes them to another level. It's just really excels in everything you want it to do, that's the best way I can describe it. Very natural cinematic look to the picture that I love as well.

I own one as well and completely agree. For those who don't though, you have to go for the best that is currently on the market. We are setting up for the annual flat panel shootout at Value Electronics this week. By the end of the day Sunday you will have the Calibrator's choice as well as the audience's choice for this year's best flat panel.

The VT50 is looking good, but we did discover one issue with it that is a new problem that the VT30 did not have, and that is undefeatable Edge Enhancement. More to come!

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post #46 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 06:44 AM
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I don't like to come off like I'm beating my chest over my Kuro...it's just a television. I was in a very narrow time in my life where I could "justify" spending $3,100+ on a tv (prolly very nearly got the best "shipped" deal on a NEW 6020 that ever existed, lol) and simply made the leap. Thankfully it is very likely the best $3K I've spent in my HT.

Anyway, I'm sure there are many like me who consistently "re-appreciate" it just about every time they stop by a friend or family members place and watch tv.

Even now that I've "educated" more than a few as to the benefits of PDP's and they've become owners of fine displays, I still find myself plopping down at home and noticing some of that Kuro magic that put it where it was...and in many ways, still is today.

Someone mentioned "depth" and I think that's a fantastic characterization of what's going on. Perhaps it's just a combination of the stupid-deep blacks, excellent contrast, and great color that just combine to create that added "dimension" of picture quality?

I don't know for sure, but I DO know that I only get a whiff of it now when looking at the very best plasmas- and admittedly- a COUPLE LEDS, although I still think the glass vs plastic screen gives a better "effect" in a properly illuminated room...that could just be me, though.

Regarding the video processing: personally, if I could pick an aspect of it I'm not terribly impressed with it would be the VP- but as we're well aware, you cannot make a silk purse from a sows ear, so it's hard to say how bad the crap is that we want to look "good", most times, lol.

I do know it looks startling good with blu ray and most HDTV content which is 95% of my viewing, so I'll survive I guess.

Ok, my Kuro sweat-session is over.

Great, great (dare we say "all time") tv and the fact that it's still even remotely considered a benchmark 3+ years after its production is absurd...and orgasmic of course for us owners.

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post #47 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by esquire415 View Post

As far as the US is concerned, Panny is not selling their 50" VT50 here which I'm disappointed about. For some reason they think that Americans are size queens.

Well apparently the Flagship buyers are indeed size queens and the surplus inventory of 50" sized Flagship models from 2005 through 2010 that went unsold every year confirms it. There was an unsold surplus of the 2005 50PX500U, 2006 50PX600U, 2007 50PZ700U, 2008 50PZ800U, 2009 50V10, and 2010 50VT25 models still being sold and cut-rate prices upwards of a year or longer after they were discontinued. There simply isn't enough market for a 50" Flagship to justify building it.

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post #48 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 11:17 AM
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^ Yep. Outside of the those with enough clink to pick up another 50" "baby" for the bedroom, forget it.

We all hate those people by the way.

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post #49 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monitorman View Post

I own one as well and completely agree. For those who don't though, you have to go for the best that is currently on the market. We are setting up for the annual flat panel shootout at Value Electronics this week. By the end of the day Sunday you will have the Calibrator's choice as well as the audience's choice for this year's best flat panel.

The VT50 is looking good, but we did discover one issue with it that is a new problem that the VT30 did not have, and that is undefeatable Edge Enhancement. More to come!

Not what I wanted to hear. How bad is it? Can it be corrected with firmware update?

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post #50 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trem0lo View Post

You're right. The things the Kuro doesn't do is widgets, 3d and it draws a bit more juice. The KRP and Signature models actually have great styling and compete with current models imo. And all the Pioneers look very elegant with that piano black finish.

But the Kuro "special sauce" is a combo of the black level and driving mechanisms (of which I don't completely understand) of which Panny only adopted some of. The PQ is just stunning. There is a depth to the PQ in Kuros that I don't see with other plasmas. I wish you could see one.

And everything works. There are no bugs, no color issues, no buzzing, no 24p issues, very IR resistant, they calibrate to perfection... and well-constructed to boot. I love the deep "click" my 500m makes when that beefy power supply turns on

So they are just a very fine product, just like that vintage stereo you've had forever but keeps chugging along and sounds better than anything currently in stores.

LOL. I thought i was the only one who likes that click sound.

As for the PQ, yeah, man. It has something no other TV has. I can't find a TV, LCD and plasma, that looks like my 151. The depth is amazing. Like the picture has weight to it. And the image is very filmy. It looks like celluloid.

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post #51 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 03:17 PM
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I refuse to go to my Buddy's House and watch His Pioneer! I have a VT 25.
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post #52 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monitorman View Post

The VT50 is looking good, but we did discover one issue with it that is a new problem that the VT30 did not have, and that is undefeatable Edge Enhancement. More to come!

There have been reviews that say the VT50 is a bit lacking in the brightness department making it less suitable for brighter living rooms. Apparently the ST50 is brighter. Please can you confirm/refute? Thanks
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post #53 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 08:37 PM
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I helped my friend set-up his 55VT50 (BB still offers it for 2200+tax BUT charge crazy for installs!!) - he has 141 as well and in our opinion/eyes both looked almost alike esp when we used couple of movies & Disney WOW BD. I personally cannot justify premium on Kuro anymore.

Anyway we will know more over the weekend shootout from experts

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post #54 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 09:37 PM
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I'm a bit biased because I got my VT50 last week, but IMO it comes very close to looking like a Kuro and really reminds me of one. It's the best looking Panasonic set I've ever seen and has a ton of depth and contrast thanks to the deep blacks. I haven't seen an Elite Kuro in a couple of years, but we have a 5020 Kuro at work that I see every day and my VT50 really resembles it. Admittedly, I've never had a Kuro in my viewing environment to compare

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post #55 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 09:59 PM
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IMHO the VT50 is a better tv for the simple fact the you can BUY one new. I was a KURO dealer and I put one in my mothers house and see it every week its has a fantastic picture, but at this point in time that set is history. The first KURO models are about five years old and who know how long they will really last. I have no idea what kind repair support Pioneer is still providing. I saw the VT50 at CES and outside of seeing both side by side I couldn't tell which one looked better. I don't think the measured differences in black level would be noticeable on real content.
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post #56 of 59 Old 05-17-2012, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monitorman View Post

I own one as well and completely agree. For those who don't though, you have to go for the best that is currently on the market. We are setting up for the annual flat panel shootout at Value Electronics this week. By the end of the day Sunday you will have the Calibrator's choice as well as the audience's choice for this year's best flat panel.

The VT50 is looking good, but we did discover one issue with it that is a new problem that the VT30 did not have, and that is undefeatable Edge Enhancement. More to come!

And the issue is what??
If you are using HQ video (Bly Ray non mpeg2)
More than likely it has to do with the firmware and source direct with the VT50's. Kinda like using the hard setting with the Kuro 9G elites, that many of us 9G elite owners use.
The biggest differences between the 9G kuro elite and the VT50, is that imo the VT50 seems to handle the "Edge Enhancement" a little better. However if you do use lessor quality video, It is nice to be able to blur the "Edge Enhancement" a little. But the only problem with the ISF controls on the 9G kuro elite is you have to use a laptop and software like Controlcal to access the menu and make the change.

My recombination for you being a well thought of ISF calibrator, is take the time to learn how to really zero in on the fairly complex ISF settings of the VT50.

PS, It would be nice for you and any other guy that are doing the ISF calibrations on the VT50 to show us your exact settings and explain each setting, why you are using that setting and what effect it has on your settings.

ss

Added: and yes I agree my Kuro 9G 141 is a great TV, but so is the VT50. They are just different, so it is very understandable why you may like one over the other.
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post #57 of 59 Old 05-18-2012, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monitorman View Post

The VT50 is looking good, but we did discover one issue with it that is a new problem that the VT30 did not have, and that is undefeatable Edge Enhancement. More to come!

Try setting the HDMI Content Type = Graphics.
It defeats most of the processing on the UT50 and on my 65GT30.

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post #58 of 59 Old 05-18-2012, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Try setting the HDMI Content Type = Graphics.
It defeats most of the processing on the UT50 and on my 65GT30.

- Rich

I wonder if this will be talked about at the shootout? Will there be a Panasonic rep there that could shed some light on it?

NHT speakers, Denon 4520, 65VT50
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post #59 of 59 Old 05-18-2012, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Try setting the HDMI Content Type = Graphics.
It defeats most of the processing on the UT50 and on my 65GT30.

- Rich

Photo should be the setting to go, if you want ot get rid of the "normal" edge enhancement.

But the new sharpening of high frequency detail is undefeatable.

Prof. Dr. Turrican M.D.
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