Originally Posted by SiGGy
They haven't quite swallowed the idea that it's almost over, streaming and on-demand have sadly won. We watch mostly over-compressed material, you really need the proper tools to help it out a bit. Those tools (noise reduction/sharpness) are NOT all created equal as you try and say. This seems to be the "go to" answer of all videophile/pursists that using any amount of these tools is bad. It's like the defacto answer that everyone repeats because someone said it and now everyone wants to sound smart (or pure) about it. When watching a Bluray I'd agree it's a clean source, but with DVD/cable/satellite it's just not the case.
1. you won't catch me watching streaming junk that barely matches my old DVDs
2. even for that stuff and for cable channels I still find that processing makes it all look even worse, now you have badly compressed signal plus DNR waxing something already low on detail mixed in with sharpening nasties on what bits it does pick up, obviously you like that, not everyone does
To clear some things up, lots of different manufacturers have different approaches/algorithms to handle sharpness/edge enhancement/noise reduction. Unknown to a lot of folks but a lot of your BR discs which are re-mastered have had these effect(s) applied to them during processing.
Yes and many of use complain about DNR and overdone and poorly done sharpening all the time. Usually a very tiny bit of sharpening needs to be done to overcome losses during scanning procedure or re-scaling to 1920x1080, but that is just a little bit of very careful sharpening and not nasty ringing, haloed junk using huge amounts using ancient out of date algorithms. I was always shocked how these huge studios would use sharpening algorithms that average joe wouldn't even think to still be using on their home snapshots. Although the DNR has generally proven to be the much worse culprit for blu-rays discs.
Don't believe me that not all processing is the same? Purchase a Darbet and compare it to the sharpness control on the VT50. Then come back here tell me they are the same.
After you try that. Compare the darbet to a Onkyo NR818's edge enhancement control. Then finally compare it to Samsung's sharpness implementation (you'll see they are actually very close in performance). All of them perform differently, some are similar. But they are not all the same... The same applies to noise reduction. You can clearly see the difference how VT50/NR818/Onkyo/Pioneer (I could keep going) do their algorithms, they are all different. Some better some worse.
I never said that all of the processing was the same, I said that it doesn't matter. I have no doubt that some of them use more advanced sharpening and edge enhancing algorithms.There is no need to use sharpening and edge enhancement on material that has already had that done to perfection at best and way overdone already at worst. And it DOES NOT bring back detail lost by compression. It just adds false aliasing and grit! Maybe if you hook up by component or s-video or VGA instead of HDMI a very trace might help but who connects that way anyway if they care what things look like?
And who wants to add more DNR? SOme material has already been turned into wax works disaster. Extreme compression robs away even more details. Using DNR to try to mask blocking and stuff is pretty poor business!
Instead of focusing on all that, how about Samsung makes a set that doesn't use crappy edge lighting?? They do, but then those are only the low end models now so they use crummy tech and have poor black levels and they cut out the calibration controls! So the sets they make using backlighting that could produce a nice quality set they don't give you the options you need and use cheap tech and then the sets they give you the ability to calibrate and that use better tech they saddle with nasty edge lighting that makes them a waste.
I broke my current LCD and unfortunately need a new set now (had been hoping it would last until OLED was working reasonably and not quite THAT expensive) and it's hard to find something to get.
I'd like something with lots of calibration controls, that handles stills well and at 4:4:4 (i'm a bit worried about plasma IR and moving dither) along with 4:2:2 motion video, at least has a chance to look good in a dark room (no edge lighting), can have all the automatically chaning the backlight lower for dark scenes and smoothing AMP and so on all 100% defeatable. And it's hard going. The only LCD that do anything right these days seem to be the super premium models from a couple companies and even they have issues and then plasma might be the way to go but I wonder about IR and dither just to name two. LG puts in good calibration controls across the entire line of their plasmas but some say the black level is no good and the IR really bad (is the black level/true contrast ratio worse than say a Samsung A750/C650 LCD? or merely just poor for a plasma?) Panasonic plasmas sound good, although you need the expensive VT to get full calibration control and OLED is coming soon.... (and I do wonder about IR even with these and especially about the pulsed dither and the persistence causing 24Hz input at 2:2 or 3:3 causing flicker).
A NEC PA series monitor (although the blacks would be rather weak) or a non-IPS Eizo in HDTV size would be nice hah.
Or I guess stay in purity land and enjoy soft looking noisy over-compressed TV, or start to do your homework and embrace what's available that could enhance your viewing experience. I'm a purist myself (heck I have mastering monitors, electrostatic speakers and headphones and class A tube amps in my collection). But even there I have a tube D/A to smooth out the high end of my digital recordings... processing...
You can sometimes clean things up for the better... just remember everyones implementation is different on these enhancement controls.
I find using that stuff makes over-compressed material even worse. No amount of sharpening brngs back detail on a nasty cable channel and using DNR to smear bad compression isn't much of a solution. I mostly watch relatively decent OTA HDTV or blu-ray or stuff sent from my PC stills or high quality video I've taken myself and such.
And since I use my PC to drive things I can have the PC apply processing, I can have it do super quality upscaling for SD and DVD etc.
And a garbage input is always going to look garbage, I'd rather focus be put on making sets deliver a great signal fanstastically then focusing on voice activation and built-in web and processing to fix up garbage input (and sometimes they leave some stuff undefeatable and then it just messes with your ideal signals which is really, really annoying so I'd just as soon none of it was in there so they can't end up being tempted to leaving on parts of it hidden under the scenes.)