Official Panasonic VT50 owners thread - Page 256 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #7651 of 13698 Old 11-18-2012, 08:44 AM
Advanced Member
 
SiGGy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lenexa, Kansas
Posts: 724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 77
This just isn't true all around. In a cave watching bluray this may be the case. But thats the only way it's the best.

Sorry but its not the best all around tv. You ned to qualify the results of the reviews and factor in they only tested with pristine sources. Thats a huge oversight when most people watch poor sources.


I'm on repeat here.... ignorance is bliss.. Ok, I'm going back into hiding...

Best MLL != best overall tv.

-SiGGy
SiGGy is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #7652 of 13698 Old 11-18-2012, 08:49 AM
Advanced Member
 
Michael2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 894
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

After trying a bunch of TVs, I wouldn't re-purchase the VT50 (or even the E8000).

I don't understand. It would sounds like you wouldn't own either one. Then what would you own?

Michael
Michael2000 is offline  
post #7653 of 13698 Old 11-18-2012, 08:53 AM
Advanced Member
 
Michael2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 894
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Famouss View Post

I am a competitive fps player, and yes gaming on the vt50 is absolutely unplayable at a high level, the input lag is too much. Anything that is over half a frame, 8ms, is unplayable. I can feel the difference between my 8.3ms EVO monitor and my 16ms LG monitor. Most casuals won't mind the lag, but many people do. There are many fighting game players who refuse to play on anything that's not a CRT.
Other than competitive fps or fighting games, the vt50 does just fine for everything else. If you don't mind the lag and and just play casually, then go right on ahead and play on the vt50. If you are serious about your game then I recommend the Asus vh236h monitor or any other monitor with better input lag, check the shoryuken forum thread.

The VT50 won't be at that level. I've saw one test where the VT50 was measured at 26 msec, which is low for a TV.

Michael
Michael2000 is offline  
post #7654 of 13698 Old 11-18-2012, 08:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
scirica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dallas, TX1
Posts: 1,661
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2000 View Post

I don't understand. It would sounds like you wouldn't own either one. Then what would you own?
Michael

Maybe the message is Perfect conditions, VT50 is a clear winner. Everything else the E8000. He may be saying go E7000 (same panel without the gadgetry).

McIntosh MX121. McIntosh MC205. Focal Aria 948 Main Speakers, Aria CC900 Center. Focal Electra IC 1002 In-Ceiling Surrounds. Paradigm Studio Sub 15. Oppo BDP-105D. Roku XS. Roku 3. Apple TV(3). DirecTV. Panasonic TC-P65VT50. Samsung UN40FH6030F, URC MX-780.
My current SACD list
scirica is offline  
post #7655 of 13698 Old 11-18-2012, 09:41 AM
Member
 
mrdaniel76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have a new 65 VT50 and a new Denon receiver AVR-3313 and everything seems to be working fine with the exception that I have a weird problem that if I turn the TV after the receiver it makes the receiver to turn off all the speakers, it is not mute but I can't hear any sound. It is not an issue if I turn the tv first then the receiver. I have the receiver connected into the HDMI 2 using the AVR feature. The TV Speakers are turned off in the TV menu. When the problem happen I cannot find a way to bring the sound back other then turning the receiver off and then on again.

I am trying to determine if this is a setting somewhere in the receiver or the TV, or if something is wrong with either one. This may not be an issue as I am buying either the Harmony One or the Harmony 900 like I have downstairs and I can program the right order but I would like to know if a setting is incorrect on the TV/Receiver or if something is wrong with either. I only have 1 week left to exchange the TV.

Thanks a lot!


p.s. Sorry for the cross-post, not sure if this is a TV or receiver issue.
mrdaniel76 is offline  
post #7656 of 13698 Old 11-18-2012, 09:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzard767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Naples, FL & Wausau, WI
Posts: 3,599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
Liked: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by scirica View Post

Maybe the message is Perfect conditions, VT50 is a clear winner. Everything else the E8000. He may be saying go E7000 (same panel without the gadgetry).

Both displays are quite nice. However, with the VT50 contrast ratio being double that of the E8000 I'll take the VT50 night or day.

Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 

buzzard767 is offline  
post #7657 of 13698 Old 11-18-2012, 09:59 AM
Advanced Member
 
jh901's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 512
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Both displays are quite nice. However, with the VT50 contrast ratio being double that of the E8000 I'll take the VT50 night or day.

What about in a cave?

HT 3.1: Panny BDT 220 | 60" Panny VT60 | Marantz AV7005 | Focal CMS50 (L/R), CMS40 & CMS Sub

Stereo system: Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 tube line level | Cary Audio SA-200.2 | Focal Diablo Utopia III
jh901 is offline  
post #7658 of 13698 Old 11-18-2012, 10:40 AM
Advanced Member
 
liltalkm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Coral Springs,FL, USA
Posts: 551
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by scirica View Post

Maybe the message is Perfect conditions, VT50 is a clear winner. Everything else the E8000. He may be saying go E7000 (same panel without the gadgetry).

I have a 65" VT50 that is broken in. I came from a Samsung FPT6374 Plasma (which has a new happy owner) that was 5 years old and served me well. It had (still has) a wonderful picture.

When I first turned on the Panny the first thing I noticed was the soft noisy picture via DirecTV as others have mentioned. It bothered me and I tried a lot of tweaking. Pure 1080p sources like the PS3, 360, HTPC, Blu Ray all have a stunning picture. Just amazing in my opinion.

I have since used my Onkyo 5009 as a VP for the DirecTV input and it has done an amazing job cleaning up the source and right now I am very happy with the outcome. It would be nice though if the Panny did as good of a job out of the box as my older Samsung did and I admit it is concerning.

I have south exposure windows on each side of the set and a west facing sliding glass door on the right of the set as well. The VT50 blows away the old Samsung (which worked great) in brightness not to mention how much any reflections have been diminished.

I will say that the VT is hands down the best display out there. But the question is "is it the best TV" out there and that is debatable.

Not everyone has a decent VP to clean up bad sources but the argument also is that for the $$ this set costs, you shouldn't need one.

Speakers: Martin Logan Montis, EM C2, Dual Depth I Subs, JBL S38 surround (upgrading soon) | Processor: Yamaha CX-A5000 | Amp: Sunfire TGA-5400 | Sources: DirecTV HR34, HTPC, Mac Mini, Oppo BDP-103, PS4, PS3, Xbox One, Wii U | Television: Panasonic 65VT50 | Remote: Logitech Harmony Ultimate
liltalkm is offline  
post #7659 of 13698 Old 11-18-2012, 11:09 AM
Advanced Member
 
kevin_mahaney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 617
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdaniel76 View Post

I have a new 65 VT50 and a new Denon receiver AVR-3313 and everything seems to be working fine with the exception that I have a weird problem that if I turn the TV after the receiver it makes the receiver to turn off all the speakers, it is not mute but I can't hear any sound. It is not an issue if I turn the tv first then the receiver. I have the receiver connected into the HDMI 2 using the AVR feature. The TV Speakers are turned off in the TV menu. When the problem happen I cannot find a way to bring the sound back other then turning the receiver off and then on again.
I am trying to determine if this is a setting somewhere in the receiver or the TV, or if something is wrong with either one. This may not be an issue as I am buying either the Harmony One or the Harmony 900 like I have downstairs and I can program the right order but I would like to know if a setting is incorrect on the TV/Receiver or if something is wrong with either. I only have 1 week left to exchange the TV.
Thanks a lot!
p.s. Sorry for the cross-post, not sure if this is a TV or receiver issue.

This definitely sounds like an HDMI handshake issue. Either turn of HDMI control (VieraLink on the TV, not sure what it's called in the Denon), which means you'll lose ARC capability or turn on the devices in the order which corrects the error. As you stated, the Harmony will fix the issue when you get one.

All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

kevin_mahaney is online now  
post #7660 of 13698 Old 11-18-2012, 04:09 PM
Advanced Member
 
SiGGy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lenexa, Kansas
Posts: 724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Both displays are quite nice. However, with the VT50 contrast ratio being double that of the E8000 I'll take the VT50 night or day.

Only in a totally dark room with NO lights on it does. During the day there is NO difference, so I'm at a loss here.

Saying things like this to folks who are not educated on the math and measurements it sounds drastic, but in reality it's not. And IMO misleads those who don't understand it fully.

Lets say you hit a peak white of 37fL for your TV mode (say ISF night)

With the following black levels the contrast is... (in a pitch black room)
.001fl contrast = 37,000:1 (Kuro)
.002fl contrast = 18,500:1 (VT50 level)
.003fl contrast = 12,300:1
.004fl contrast = 9,250:1 (VT30/E8000/7000 for example)
.005fl contrast = 7,400:1

Using these numbers the Kuro makes the VT50 look like a turd, which as we know is NOT the case.

If you have ANY light on in your room distinguishing between .002 and .004 will be nearly impossible and really the only difference you'll be comparing is the AR coatings. This is another area the VT50 excels, IMO it's of the best AR coatings I have ever seen (minus early D8000 builds). With that said there's other things folks should focus on. The black levels are so close the contrast ratios here really only apply in man caves.

This TV doesn't belong on a pedestal, it doesn't do all things well. I'm no sure why some folks can't just be honest about this. I own one and I admit it freely with a objective opinion. It really only does a couple things better than the competition. The competition leaves the VT50 behind in other areas. You may not want to admit this, but those are the facts.

Like I said, if you watch in total darkness and only view blu-rays this is your TV. Nothing is better at the moment for that *specific* scenario. But if you do most of your viewing outside of those parameters (like 98% of the world does) there are TVs that are better all around.

Toss a darbet on the VT50 and you've probably got yourself a close match (and close to the best all around TV). The only thing you'd be missing would be decent noise reduction (cleaning up dirty DVD or HD/SD channel) and better peak brightness for daytime viewing.

-SiGGy
SiGGy is online now  
post #7661 of 13698 Old 11-18-2012, 04:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fookoo_2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,742
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

Like I said, if you watch in total darkness and only view blu-rays this is your TV. Nothing is better at the moment for that *specific* scenario. But if you do most of your viewing outside of those parameters (like 98% of the world does) there TVs that are better all around.

Such as what at the same price level?
fookoo_2010 is offline  
post #7662 of 13698 Old 11-18-2012, 04:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,038
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 149 Post(s)
Liked: 489
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

Only in a totally dark room with NO lights on it does. During the day there is NO difference, so I'm at a loss here.
Saying things like this to folks who are not educated on the math and measurements it sounds drastic, but in reality it's not. And IMO misleads those who don't understand it fully.
Lets say you hit a peak white of 37fL for your TV mode (say ISF night)
With the following black levels the contrast is... (in a pitch black room)
.001fl contrast = 37,000:1 (Kuro)
.002fl contrast = 18,500:1 (VT50 level)
.003fl contrast = 12,300:1
.004fl contrast = 9,250:1 (VT30/E8000/7000 for example)
.005fl contrast = 7,400:1
Using these numbers the Kuro makes the VT50 look like a turd, which as we know is NOT the case.
If you have ANY light on in your room distinguishing between .002 and .004 will be nearly impossible and really the only difference you'll be comparing is the AR coatings. This is another area the VT50 excels, IMO it's of the best AR coatings I have ever seen (minus early D8000 builds). With that said there's other things folks should focus on. The black levels are so close the contrast ratios here really only apply in man caves.
This TV doesn't belong on a pedestal, it doesn't do all things well. I'm no sure why some folks can't just be honest about this. I own one and I admit it freely with a objective opinion. It really only does a couple things better than the competition. The competition leaves the VT50 behind in other areas. You may not want to admit this, but those are the facts.
Like I said, if you watch in total darkness and only view blu-rays this is your TV. Nothing is better at the moment for that *specific* scenario. But if you do most of your viewing outside of those parameters (like 98% of the world does) there TVs that are better all around.
Toss a darbet on the VT50 and you've probably got yourself a close match (and close to the best all around TV). The only thing you'd be missing would be decent noise reduction (cleaning up dirty DVD or HD/SD channel) and better peak brightness for daytime viewing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

Only in a totally dark room with NO lights on it does. During the day there is NO difference, so I'm at a loss here.
Saying things like this to folks who are not educated on the math and measurements it sounds drastic, but in reality it's not. And IMO misleads those who don't understand it fully.
Lets say you hit a peak white of 37fL for your TV mode (say ISF night)
With the following black levels the contrast is... (in a pitch black room)
.001fl contrast = 37,000:1 (Kuro)
.002fl contrast = 18,500:1 (VT50 level)
.003fl contrast = 12,300:1
.004fl contrast = 9,250:1 (VT30/E8000/7000 for example)
.005fl contrast = 7,400:1
Using these numbers the Kuro makes the VT50 look like a turd, which as we know is NOT the case.
If you have ANY light on in your room distinguishing between .002 and .004 will be nearly impossible and really the only difference you'll be comparing is the AR coatings. This is another area the VT50 excels, IMO it's of the best AR coatings I have ever seen (minus early D8000 builds). With that said there's other things folks should focus on. The black levels are so close the contrast ratios here really only apply in man caves.
This TV doesn't belong on a pedestal, it doesn't do all things well. I'm no sure why some folks can't just be honest about this. I own one and I admit it freely with a objective opinion. It really only does a couple things better than the competition. The competition leaves the VT50 behind in other areas. You may not want to admit this, but those are the facts.
Like I said, if you watch in total darkness and only view blu-rays this is your TV. Nothing is better at the moment for that *specific* scenario. But if you do most of your viewing outside of those parameters (like 98% of the world does) there TVs that are better all around.
Toss a darbet on the VT50 and you've probably got yourself a close match (and close to the best all around TV). The only thing you'd be missing would be decent noise reduction (cleaning up dirty DVD or HD/SD channel) and better peak brightness for daytime viewing.

Interesting take on what are facts and what aren't wink.gif

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #7663 of 13698 Old 11-18-2012, 05:51 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
rogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Sequoia, CA
Posts: 30,110
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by liltalkm View Post

I have a 65" VT50 that is broken in. I came from a Samsung FPT6374 Plasma (which has a new happy owner) that was 5 years old and served me well. It had (still has) a wonderful picture.
When I first turned on the Panny the first thing I noticed was the soft noisy picture via DirecTV as others have mentioned. It bothered me and I tried a lot of tweaking. Pure 1080p sources like the PS3, 360, HTPC, Blu Ray all have a stunning picture. Just amazing in my opinion.
I have since used my Onkyo 5009 as a VP for the DirecTV input and it has done an amazing job cleaning up the source and right now I am very happy with the outcome. It would be nice though if the Panny did as good of a job out of the box as my older Samsung did and I admit it is concerning.
I have south exposure windows on each side of the set and a west facing sliding glass door on the right of the set as well. The VT50 blows away the old Samsung (which worked great) in brightness not to mention how much any reflections have been diminished.
I will say that the VT is hands down the best display out there. But the question is "is it the best TV" out there and that is debatable.
Not everyone has a decent VP to clean up bad sources but the argument also is that for the $$ this set costs, you shouldn't need one.

I sure don't have any decent video processor. I'm not sure, however, what all the complaining is about.

I watch a lot of sports on my VT50, and it doesn't appear to be in any need of some tool to "clean up sources". Nor does it for movie viewing.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
rogo is offline  
post #7664 of 13698 Old 11-18-2012, 06:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
skibum5000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 3,569
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

1. Do you watch in total darkness? I mean absolutely NO lights on, and do you do this all the time?
If answer is no, then the black levels don't matter between any of the TOP tv(s). Period.
If you said "yes", keep going.

Most of the time when I am doing serious watching.
Quote:
2. Do you watch ONLY blu-ray material?

No, but it is the material I care about the most. OTA HDTV is sometimes not too bad, cable stuff often worse, you judge a TV by poor signals. Blu-ray is where it is at.
Quote:
If answer is no, the VT50 has faults here too. The TV50 is basically a computer monitor. It has little to NO video processing worth mentioning to help with a cable/IPTV or satellite. Thus other TVs will look MUCH better in this area. Samsung for example will just school the Panasonic here.
*ignore* the video purists in here who say you should watch exactly what you feed the TV. It's 2012 reality is 99% of most material everyone watches is NOT bluray. So the pursit view is just utter non-sense unless all you watch is bluray. FInd a store a E8000/7000 sitting next to a VT50 with a NON pristine source on both TVs, and just slightly tweak the Samsung, say turn on auto noise reduction, and a sharpness setting of 10 or 15. And tell me which one looks better. Then try this on the Panasonic... If you read back in this thread (and other forums), basically everyone who has seen this scenario in person has said the Samsung looks much better. Because it does...

If the Panny is free of that signal mashing then all the better. I hate SNR or applying sharpening to a nasty cable signal it just makes things go from bad to worse. It is a huge plus if they didn't waste efforts on all that garbage processing. So I will tell you which looks better, the Panny would or the even Samsng with all that junk dialed off. My Samsung LCD had all that stuff and it just made a poorly compressed signal worse.

(I should also point out I have never yet owned a plasma and I have, well had until a horror, a Samsung LCD. But I've been thinking about trying plasma, especially since LCD seem to be all that crummy edge lit garbage these days unless you go like $3000 for 50".)


To me key points are black level, ability to turn off all auto-dimming, black dynamic level altering etc., ability to turn off motion smoothing AMP stuff, ability to adjust color primaries and secondaries in a full CMS, a multi-point gamma/WB adjustment, 4:4:4 display allowed, relative lack of clouding and edge bleed for LCD and dirty screen for plasma and such. I don't care a whit about all the voice controlled nonsense, built-in web browser nonsense, dynamic video processing of this or that nonsense.

EDIT: actually the one place the processing can matter is in how well it does de-interlacing or scales 720p (or SD) material to 1080p, for that stuff you could have crummy job vs great job. I feed my sets more through a PC than set top box, other than for a few cable only 720p things such as ESPN and Speed though so I can always have the PC scale things well anyway.
skibum5000 is offline  
post #7665 of 13698 Old 11-18-2012, 07:23 PM
Newbie
 
jsteinme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Stillwater, MN
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am hooking up my Wii U and have made an interesting observation, the Wii U's surround sound does not seem to be passing through ARC on the TV to the receiver. If I connect the Wii U directly to the receiver the surround sound does seem to work. I am curious if anyone else has observed this?

Here are some more details. I have the Wii U hooked up via HDMI to my 65" VT50 to HDMI input 3 and I have the TV hooked to the receiver via input 2 and get audio via ARC. The receiver is a Sony STR-DH830. I have an Xbox 360 hooked to input 1 and its surround sound works fine. To further test this I unplugged the HDMI cable from the Xbox and plugged it into the Wii U with the same result. I then plugged the Wii U into the receiver directly and did get surround sound. So I think I have proven that whatever surround sound format the Wii U is putting out is not liked by the TV. The Wii U has no options to adjust the surround sound format. I suppose I should see if the receiver have a way to report the audio output format.

Ultimately it is not that big of a deal to hook the Wii U up directly to the receiver other than the fact that I have the receiver in an adjacent room and so will need a longer cable. But I would like to understand what I going on.

So, if anyone else is seeing this please let me know. Or if I have missed something in my testing I would appreciate hearing about it.

Thanks
jsteinme is offline  
post #7666 of 13698 Old 11-18-2012, 07:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
nabsltd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Germantown, MD, USA
Posts: 1,284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

nabsltd, I got an equal/better price from Amazon than Cleveland could offer at the time. I think Cleveland is a great e-tailer but when I bought they could not do better than what I paid at Amazon. Generally, I will happily pay 2-5% to buy from Amazon by the way.
Amazon is pretty much my go-to for most things (although Newegg is better for computer parts because of their search), but when my wife ordered the VT50 from "Amazon", it was an Amazon storefront. The first thing they did was call to try to upsell. I had her cancel, and now notice that they aren't listed as an Amazon seller any more.

We ended up going with a seller that was closer to our home, and their price with a 3-year Mack warranty was less than the best price on Amazon, and about 20% less than Amazon for the bare TV (and about what Cleveland is selling the TV for right now). I suspect the price was so low because the TV was older stock (although brand new in the box). My build date was several months before what other people were getting when ordering from Best Buy, etc.

I fully expect to keep this TV as long as the last one (10 years), so although I'm not obsessed with IR, I am looking for it by running slides every month or so just to see what is (or isn't) happening. The #1 thing I have learned is that IR can be pretty easy to see on slides while completely invisible during normal viewing. As long as this remains true, then I think it can be said that "IR isn't a problem".
nabsltd is offline  
post #7667 of 13698 Old 11-19-2012, 02:38 AM
Member
 
JoelxD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: San Francisco, CA - USA
Posts: 189
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by skibum5000 View Post

ability to turn off motion smoothing AMP stuff,
I can tell you now after long testing, this is impossible with ANY good looking PQ new LCD or Plasma, period. You WILL run into a few judder/jerky motions with some panned motion shots here and there. I have found on this VT50 Motion smoothing on Medium is a set it and forget it setting (and also a MUST for completely normal looking motion). Looks great, and finally does all my tested panned motion shots perfectly.

Same with every other TV I tested. But I wont tell you what each ones setting were, just know, it was some sort of Motion smoothening set to something. With ANY of them completely off, they all showed issues at some point. BUT THE KEY is this: It was the TV's that allowed for a setting that made everything smooth ALONG with not ruining the PQ. And that was down to 2 TV's. (IMO from my testing, YMMV).

Quote:
Originally Posted by nabsltd View Post

so although I'm not obsessed with IR, I am looking for it by running slides every month or so just to see what is (or isn't) happening. The #1 thing I have learned is that IR can be pretty easy to see on slides while completely invisible during normal viewing. As long as this remains true, then I think it can be said that "IR isn't a problem".

This is the conclusion I came to and what I am doing. Running a few year all natural test here. Seeing what happens. History Channel here I come BABY !!! Thank god. No worries now, I'm head first. Lets see what happens.
JoelxD is offline  
post #7668 of 13698 Old 11-19-2012, 02:47 AM
Member
 
JoelxD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: San Francisco, CA - USA
Posts: 189
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Joel,. if you can still return the TV, return it. That's my free advice. You are agonizing over this way too much.
Thanks for the direct advice. But I guess maybe I am coming off with the wrong tone here... (easily done with text vs real life convo's) - Really, this is not agonizing to me. I like it. I love testing and seeing results. Real results, no emotions (emotions are for humans). I just simply like the hard facts. And I don't mind working for it. Its actually fun for me. So its ok. And now thanks to you and barth2k and nabsltd I am just gonna go for the "enjoy it , ignore it, and see what happens.

Then after long periods I can truly say I put it to the test, didn't baby it around, yes I was worried, BUT I ignored it and..... (this or that happened) - So lets see.

This is cause we really enjoy the set. I actually calibrated again myself (now away from Toppers settings) with a calibration disk, and we really like the results now. More poppin and rich and brighter. And this isn't going by what we "wanted" this is all real calibration (just non-pro) from a disc. When I was done, WOW !!! Looked beautiful !

I am sorry, I think with all the sad faces and stuff I was writing, maybe I came off as agonizing - -LOL but I seemed to only agonize you and others.. Ha ha ! I'm cool man. I also test things in my real line of work. (Recording Studio/Label owner) Tons of pro audio gear. And man, I can spend weeks testing/comparing/shoot outs, etc.. before making a purchase. So this has become a enjoyable thing I am good at. Removing variables and emotions and doing true "blind testing" that proves things, not just what I want it to prove... You know ?

Anyway, thanks for everything. I will report back what happens as time ticks...
JoelxD is offline  
post #7669 of 13698 Old 11-19-2012, 04:40 AM
Member
 
azurisk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Can anyone tell me what amount of line bleed is "normal" I often see it during normal content viewing. Is there a test or sample to compare to?
azurisk is offline  
post #7670 of 13698 Old 11-19-2012, 05:43 AM
Advanced Member
 
SiGGy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lenexa, Kansas
Posts: 724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by skibum5000 View Post

Most of the time when I am doing serious watching.
No, but it is the material I care about the most. OTA HDTV is sometimes not too bad, cable stuff often worse, you judge a TV by poor signals. Blu-ray is where it is at.
If the Panny is free of that signal mashing then all the better. I hate SNR or applying sharpening to a nasty cable signal it just makes things go from bad to worse. It is a huge plus if they didn't waste efforts on all that garbage processing. So I will tell you which looks better, the Panny would or the even Samsng with all that junk dialed off. My Samsung LCD had all that stuff and it just made a poorly compressed signal worse.
(I should also point out I have never yet owned a plasma and I have, well had until a horror, a Samsung LCD. But I've been thinking about trying plasma, especially since LCD seem to be all that crummy edge lit garbage these days unless you go like $3000 for 50".)
To me key points are black level, ability to turn off all auto-dimming, black dynamic level altering etc., ability to turn off motion smoothing AMP stuff, ability to adjust color primaries and secondaries in a full CMS, a multi-point gamma/WB adjustment, 4:4:4 display allowed, relative lack of clouding and edge bleed for LCD and dirty screen for plasma and such. I don't care a whit about all the voice controlled nonsense, built-in web browser nonsense, dynamic video processing of this or that nonsense.
EDIT: actually the one place the processing can matter is in how well it does de-interlacing or scales 720p (or SD) material to 1080p, for that stuff you could have crummy job vs great job. I feed my sets more through a PC than set top box, other than for a few cable only 720p things such as ESPN and Speed though so I can always have the PC scale things well anyway.

Yes, everyone should have their key points that apply to their specific situation. There's a lot more places than just de-iterlacing and or up-conversion where processing matters to achieve good PQ.

No, I judge things over-all. And what's most important is what one watches most of the time, certainly not what you watch 5% of the time. Honestly I bet most of the folks who buy VT50's do not sit around watching the same Bluray movies over and over in the dark (unless they are showing the TV off), that honeymoon wears off after a month or so. They sit with their families watching cable/satellite/IPTV with some lights on in the room. I'm sure there is some person who will probably post in this thread to contradict me (becasue they know this is true) who does only sit in the dark like a mushroom with his/her family watching TV. And I bet the family does this probably because of said postee. But it won't apply to the vast majority of TV purchasers.

IMO it's all of the purists still trying to hold on who really toss off the reality of 2012. They haven't quite swallowed the idea that it's almost over, streaming and on-demand have sadly won. We watch mostly over-compressed material, you really need the proper tools to help it out a bit. Those tools (noise reduction/sharpness) are NOT all created equal as you try and say. This seems to be the "go to" answer of all videophile/pursists that using any amount of these tools is bad. It's like the defacto answer that everyone repeats because someone said it and now everyone wants to sound smart (or pure) about it. When watching a Bluray I'd agree it's a clean source, but with DVD/cable/satellite it's just not the case.

To clear some things up, lots of different manufacturers have different approaches/algorithms to handle sharpness/edge enhancement/noise reduction. Unknown to a lot of folks but a lot of your BR discs which are re-mastered have had these effect(s) applied to them during processing. Don't believe me that not all processing is the same? Purchase a Darbet and compare it to the sharpness control on the VT50. Then come back here tell me they are the same. After you try that. Compare the darbet to a Onkyo NR818's edge enhancement control. Then finally compare it to Samsung's sharpness implementation (you'll see they are actually very close in performance). All of them perform differently, some are similar. But they are not all the same... The same applies to noise reduction. You can clearly see the difference how VT50/NR818/Onkyo/Pioneer (I could keep going) do their algorithms, they are all different. Some better some worse.

Or I guess stay in purity land and enjoy soft looking noisy over-compressed TV, or start to do your homework and embrace what's available that could enhance your viewing experience. I'm a purist myself (heck I have mastering monitors, electrostatic speakers and headphones and class A tube amps in my collection). But even there I have a tube D/A to smooth out the high end of my digital recordings... processing...

You can sometimes clean things up for the better... just remember everyones implementation is different on these enhancement controls.

-SiGGy
SiGGy is online now  
post #7671 of 13698 Old 11-19-2012, 07:19 AM
Member
 
Summit 1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

Really this is true depending on your perspective.
I've owned both a E8000 and two VT50's. In retrospect the E8000 is all around a much better TV. Even a VT50 paired with an Onkyo NR818 is completely equal to the E8000/7000.
The black level argument is so over-blown it's really the *only* thing the VT50 does better than anyone else.
Ask yourself these questions... in order.
1. Do you watch in total darkness? I mean absolutely NO lights on, and do you do this all the time?
If answer is no, then the black levels don't matter between any of the TOP tv(s). Period.
If you said "yes", keep going.
2. Do you watch ONLY blu-ray material?
If answer is no, the VT50 has faults here too. The TV50 is basically a computer monitor. It has little to NO video processing worth mentioning to help with a cable/IPTV or satellite. Thus other TVs will look MUCH better in this area. Samsung for example will just school the Panasonic here.
*ignore* the video purists in here who say you should watch exactly what you feed the TV. It's 2012 reality is 99% of most material everyone watches is NOT bluray. So the pursit view is just utter non-sense unless all you watch is bluray. FInd a store a E8000/7000 sitting next to a VT50 with a NON pristine source on both TVs, and just slightly tweak the Samsung, say turn on auto noise reduction, and a sharpness setting of 10 or 15. And tell me which one looks better. Then try this on the Panasonic... If you read back in this thread (and other forums), basically everyone who has seen this scenario in person has said the Samsung looks much better. Because it does...
So far this year I have had a Rev 1. VT50 an E8000 and a Rev 2 VT50. In retrospect the better all around panel is the E8000/7000. I even paired my VT50 with a NR-818 and it's still not quite as good. The image processing in the Samsung is very good, even better than what's in the NR818.
After trying a bunch of TVs, I wouldn't re-purchase the VT50 (or even the E8000). I'd even take a good offer on my VT50 if someone wanted it here in local KC (it's basically a perfect Rev 2 VT50, no banding). It's fully calibrated to BT 1886 gamma and 709 color space, I'll even come and do a full cal at your house for day/night modes.
Now if all I did was production type TV editing and work similar, and only viewed Bluray I would get the VT50 for sure. It's an excellent monitor. I'm not sure where you fall into the chain here, but don't let all of the videophiles/purists in here sway your decision, especially if it's solely based on black levels.
Lots of mis-information in this thread... also basically NONE of the reviews compare cable/IPTV sources between TVs. They all use bluray and most reviews assume you live in a cave.

Anyone have any specific thoughts on this? Does anybody know if in any of the reviews, show-downs or testing....... was there ever any specific testing done with the TVs comparing Standard def TV / HD def TV from cable sources? Which TV came out better between the units regarding those sources…..not just Blue ray as Siggy claims? Thanks.
Summit 1 is offline  
post #7672 of 13698 Old 11-19-2012, 07:28 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Cleveland Plasma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 12,027
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 529
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

This just isn't true all around. In a cave watching bluray this may be the case. But thats the only way it's the best.
Sorry but its not the best all around tv. You ned to qualify the results of the reviews and factor in they only tested with pristine sources. Thats a huge oversight when most people watch poor sources.
I'm on repeat here.... ignorance is bliss.. Ok, I'm going back into hiding...
Best MLL != best overall tv.

It's all a matter of opinion. The only opinion that matter's is the owner of a set, what ever that set may be wink.gif With this said, there are trends that say what TV is the best.........
Cleveland Plasma is online now  
post #7673 of 13698 Old 11-19-2012, 07:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
scirica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dallas, TX1
Posts: 1,661
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

It's all a matter of opinion. The only opinion that matter's is the owner of a set, what ever that set may be wink.gif With this said, there are trends that say what TV is the best.........
I'd expect this from someone who sells both! You are on the top of my list of vendors to call once I make the decision that makes the most sense for me. My opinion is that there are two different types of viewing: Critical and Casual. I would think that both of these sets would be fine for Casual viewing and from what I've seen and read the VT50 would edge out the Sammy for Critical (blu-ray in optimal room settings). That may be my parameters for selection, not others, and I get that.

McIntosh MX121. McIntosh MC205. Focal Aria 948 Main Speakers, Aria CC900 Center. Focal Electra IC 1002 In-Ceiling Surrounds. Paradigm Studio Sub 15. Oppo BDP-105D. Roku XS. Roku 3. Apple TV(3). DirecTV. Panasonic TC-P65VT50. Samsung UN40FH6030F, URC MX-780.
My current SACD list
scirica is offline  
post #7674 of 13698 Old 11-19-2012, 11:25 AM
Senior Member
 
Pyrophoric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 279
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

Yes, everyone should have their key points that apply to their specific situation. There's a lot more places than just de-iterlacing and or up-conversion where processing matters to achieve good PQ.
No, I judge things over-all. And what's most important is what one watches most of the time, certainly not what you watch 5% of the time. Honestly I bet most of the folks who buy VT50's do not sit around watching the same Bluray movies over and over in the dark (unless they are showing the TV off), that honeymoon wears off after a month or so. They sit with their families watching cable/satellite/IPTV with some lights on in the room. I'm sure there is some person who will probably post in this thread to contradict me (becasue they know this is true) who does only sit in the dark like a mushroom with his/her family watching TV. And I bet the family does this probably because of said postee. But it won't apply to the vast majority of TV purchasers.
IMO it's all of the purists still trying to hold on who really toss off the reality of 2012. They haven't quite swallowed the idea that it's almost over, streaming and on-demand have sadly won. We watch mostly over-compressed material, you really need the proper tools to help it out a bit. Those tools (noise reduction/sharpness) are NOT all created equal as you try and say. This seems to be the "go to" answer of all videophile/pursists that using any amount of these tools is bad. It's like the defacto answer that everyone repeats because someone said it and now everyone wants to sound smart (or pure) about it. When watching a Bluray I'd agree it's a clean source, but with DVD/cable/satellite it's just not the case.
To clear some things up, lots of different manufacturers have different approaches/algorithms to handle sharpness/edge enhancement/noise reduction. Unknown to a lot of folks but a lot of your BR discs which are re-mastered have had these effect(s) applied to them during processing. Don't believe me that not all processing is the same? Purchase a Darbet and compare it to the sharpness control on the VT50. Then come back here tell me they are the same. After you try that. Compare the darbet to a Onkyo NR818's edge enhancement control. Then finally compare it to Samsung's sharpness implementation (you'll see they are actually very close in performance). All of them perform differently, some are similar. But they are not all the same... The same applies to noise reduction. You can clearly see the difference how VT50/NR818/Onkyo/Pioneer (I could keep going) do their algorithms, they are all different. Some better some worse.
Or I guess stay in purity land and enjoy soft looking noisy over-compressed TV, or start to do your homework and embrace what's available that could enhance your viewing experience. I'm a purist myself (heck I have mastering monitors, electrostatic speakers and headphones and class A tube amps in my collection). But even there I have a tube D/A to smooth out the high end of my digital recordings... processing...
You can sometimes clean things up for the better... just remember everyones implementation is different on these enhancement controls.

Wouldn't most most/all of the short comings of this TV be offset by a decent AVR? With the price being what it is, compared to others and for quality, it seems a higher value to combo a good receiver with the VT50.

As far as a dark room, you make it sound like no one on the planet would be caught dead in one. Further, you emphasize absolute darkness, which isn't necessary. Yes, you shouldn't have room lighting on but indirect low light should be absolutely fine.

Personally, I am not a critical viewer during the day. Dark room viewing has been optimal since before home theaters were conceived and that's what I go for when being critical.
Pyrophoric is offline  
post #7675 of 13698 Old 11-19-2012, 11:59 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
rogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Sequoia, CA
Posts: 30,110
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrophoric View Post

Wouldn't most most/all of the short comings of this TV be offset by a decent AVR? With the price being what it is, compared to others and for quality, it seems a higher value to combo a good receiver with the VT50.
As far as a dark room, you make it sound like no one on the planet would be caught dead in one. Further, you emphasize absolute darkness, which isn't necessary. Yes, you shouldn't have room lighting on but indirect low light should be absolutely fine.
Personally, I am not a critical viewer during the day. Dark room viewing has been optimal since before home theaters were conceived and that's what I go for when being critical.

I never watch in absolute darkness. We watch movies in near darkness.

We do run our sources through a Denon 3312. I'm still not sure it makes any difference though, because one of our DVRs is direct to the TV (used rarely thanks to DirecTV multi-room technology) and the picture is pretty similar.

I'm really happy with the TV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit 1 View Post

Anyone have any specific thoughts on this? Does anybody know if in any of the reviews, show-downs or testing....... was there ever any specific testing done with the TVs comparing Standard def TV / HD def TV from cable sources? Which TV came out better between the units regarding those sources…..not just Blue ray as Siggy claims? Thanks.

I watch a lot of DirecTV HD. The TV almost always looks great. Who is watch SD on a 55" or 65" regularly in this day and age? Really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

It's all a matter of opinion. The only opinion that matter's is the owner of a set, what ever that set may be wink.gif With this said, there are trends that say what TV is the best.........

^^^ This.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
rogo is offline  
post #7676 of 13698 Old 11-19-2012, 04:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzard767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Naples, FL & Wausau, WI
Posts: 3,599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
Liked: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

What about in a cave?

The darker the environment the better higher contrast looks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

Only in a totally dark room with NO lights on it does. During the day there is NO difference, so I'm at a loss here. etc.

Toss a darbet on the VT50 and you've probably got yourself a close match (and close to the best all around TV).


Look at a Sharp Elite in the mostly light Magnolia areas at BB. It stands out like a sore thumb for one reason - black level.

I have two Darblets. They're fun but neither is in use right now.

Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 

buzzard767 is offline  
post #7677 of 13698 Old 11-19-2012, 04:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
barth2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,196
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 68
I can deal with GIGO, except I don't watch garbage. I think it's the VT that is adding noise to the picture. I watch the same programs on my 46" Sony LCD and it looks much cleaner there. And no, it's not the size because I can get right up to 2feet in front of the set and it looks clean. With the VT I need to get about 15 feet away, except I don't want to sit that far away. I don't think it's the video processing because I doubt the $700 set I got for the guest bedroom has a better video processor than the $3000 VT. Or maybe it does in which case it's a crying shame. (I've turned off all noise reduction settings on both sets, as they don't seem to do much of anything on either)

PS: is it normal to see a lot of pixel noise and slight but definite flicker with the VT when viewing a gray slide?
barth2k is online now  
post #7678 of 13698 Old 11-19-2012, 04:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
skibum5000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 3,569
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelxD View Post

I can tell you now after long testing, this is impossible with ANY good looking PQ new LCD or Plasma, period. You WILL run into a few judder/jerky motions with some panned motion shots here and there. I have found on this VT50 Motion smoothing on Medium is a set it and forget it setting (and also a MUST for completely normal looking motion). Looks great, and finally does all my tested panned motion shots perfectly.
Same with every other TV I tested. But I wont tell you what each ones setting were, just know, it was some sort of Motion smoothening set to something. With ANY of them completely off, they all showed issues at some point. BUT THE KEY is this: It was the TV's that allowed for a setting that made everything smooth ALONG with not ruining the PQ. And that was down to 2 TV's. (IMO from my testing, YMMV).
This is the conclusion I came to and what I am doing. Running a few year all natural test here. Seeing what happens. History Channel here I come BABY !!! Thank god. No worries now, I'm head first. Lets see what happens.

I'd rather some natural 24fps judder (which you see in movie theaters, digital or film, too) than all of the weird processing errors AMP stuff makes, for the most part. Although obviously not everyone agrees.
skibum5000 is offline  
post #7679 of 13698 Old 11-19-2012, 04:57 PM
Member
 
JoelxD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: San Francisco, CA - USA
Posts: 189
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by skibum5000 View Post

I'd rather some natural 24fps judder (which you see in movie theaters, digital or film, too) than all of the weird processing errors AMP stuff makes, for the most part. Although obviously not everyone agrees.
Agreed, cause your right, this natural flickering is in the theater that we are all so used to. But what I am talking about is definitely not natural, and does not look natural and is not natural steady "flicker". Cause that I could deal with. As you pointed out, the theater has that.

What I am talking about is completely herky jerky panned motion shots. Almost looks like when a movie is streaming, but hasn't the bandwidth to stay smooth... ALMOST. So no one attack me for that, its just my description for this issue that happens to ALL HDTV's if some sort of motion smoothening is not enabled. What you would really call it or describe it better, IDK ?

But believe me dude, its not natural or bearable to any person that likes things right. And especially embarrassing when trying to show off your TV to someone that still has SD and they need incentive to move to HD... they look at that and are like, WTF was that ? lol
JoelxD is offline  
post #7680 of 13698 Old 11-19-2012, 05:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
skibum5000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 3,569
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

They haven't quite swallowed the idea that it's almost over, streaming and on-demand have sadly won. We watch mostly over-compressed material, you really need the proper tools to help it out a bit. Those tools (noise reduction/sharpness) are NOT all created equal as you try and say. This seems to be the "go to" answer of all videophile/pursists that using any amount of these tools is bad. It's like the defacto answer that everyone repeats because someone said it and now everyone wants to sound smart (or pure) about it. When watching a Bluray I'd agree it's a clean source, but with DVD/cable/satellite it's just not the case.

1. you won't catch me watching streaming junk that barely matches my old DVDs
2. even for that stuff and for cable channels I still find that processing makes it all look even worse, now you have badly compressed signal plus DNR waxing something already low on detail mixed in with sharpening nasties on what bits it does pick up, obviously you like that, not everyone does
Quote:
To clear some things up, lots of different manufacturers have different approaches/algorithms to handle sharpness/edge enhancement/noise reduction. Unknown to a lot of folks but a lot of your BR discs which are re-mastered have had these effect(s) applied to them during processing.

Yes and many of use complain about DNR and overdone and poorly done sharpening all the time. Usually a very tiny bit of sharpening needs to be done to overcome losses during scanning procedure or re-scaling to 1920x1080, but that is just a little bit of very careful sharpening and not nasty ringing, haloed junk using huge amounts using ancient out of date algorithms. I was always shocked how these huge studios would use sharpening algorithms that average joe wouldn't even think to still be using on their home snapshots. Although the DNR has generally proven to be the much worse culprit for blu-rays discs.
Quote:
Don't believe me that not all processing is the same? Purchase a Darbet and compare it to the sharpness control on the VT50. Then come back here tell me they are the same.
After you try that. Compare the darbet to a Onkyo NR818's edge enhancement control. Then finally compare it to Samsung's sharpness implementation (you'll see they are actually very close in performance). All of them perform differently, some are similar. But they are not all the same... The same applies to noise reduction. You can clearly see the difference how VT50/NR818/Onkyo/Pioneer (I could keep going) do their algorithms, they are all different. Some better some worse.

I never said that all of the processing was the same, I said that it doesn't matter. I have no doubt that some of them use more advanced sharpening and edge enhancing algorithms.There is no need to use sharpening and edge enhancement on material that has already had that done to perfection at best and way overdone already at worst. And it DOES NOT bring back detail lost by compression. It just adds false aliasing and grit! Maybe if you hook up by component or s-video or VGA instead of HDMI a very trace might help but who connects that way anyway if they care what things look like?

And who wants to add more DNR? SOme material has already been turned into wax works disaster. Extreme compression robs away even more details. Using DNR to try to mask blocking and stuff is pretty poor business!

Instead of focusing on all that, how about Samsung makes a set that doesn't use crappy edge lighting?? They do, but then those are only the low end models now so they use crummy tech and have poor black levels and they cut out the calibration controls! So the sets they make using backlighting that could produce a nice quality set they don't give you the options you need and use cheap tech and then the sets they give you the ability to calibrate and that use better tech they saddle with nasty edge lighting that makes them a waste.

I broke my current LCD and unfortunately need a new set now (had been hoping it would last until OLED was working reasonably and not quite THAT expensive) and it's hard to find something to get.

I'd like something with lots of calibration controls, that handles stills well and at 4:4:4 (i'm a bit worried about plasma IR and moving dither) along with 4:2:2 motion video, at least has a chance to look good in a dark room (no edge lighting), can have all the automatically chaning the backlight lower for dark scenes and smoothing AMP and so on all 100% defeatable. And it's hard going. The only LCD that do anything right these days seem to be the super premium models from a couple companies and even they have issues and then plasma might be the way to go but I wonder about IR and dither just to name two. LG puts in good calibration controls across the entire line of their plasmas but some say the black level is no good and the IR really bad (is the black level/true contrast ratio worse than say a Samsung A750/C650 LCD? or merely just poor for a plasma?) Panasonic plasmas sound good, although you need the expensive VT to get full calibration control and OLED is coming soon.... (and I do wonder about IR even with these and especially about the pulsed dither and the persistence causing 24Hz input at 2:2 or 3:3 causing flicker).

A NEC PA series monitor (although the blacks would be rather weak) or a non-IPS Eizo in HDTV size would be nice hah.



Quote:
Or I guess stay in purity land and enjoy soft looking noisy over-compressed TV, or start to do your homework and embrace what's available that could enhance your viewing experience. I'm a purist myself (heck I have mastering monitors, electrostatic speakers and headphones and class A tube amps in my collection). But even there I have a tube D/A to smooth out the high end of my digital recordings... processing...
You can sometimes clean things up for the better... just remember everyones implementation is different on these enhancement controls.

I find using that stuff makes over-compressed material even worse. No amount of sharpening brngs back detail on a nasty cable channel and using DNR to smear bad compression isn't much of a solution. I mostly watch relatively decent OTA HDTV or blu-ray or stuff sent from my PC stills or high quality video I've taken myself and such.
And since I use my PC to drive things I can have the PC apply processing, I can have it do super quality upscaling for SD and DVD etc.

And a garbage input is always going to look garbage, I'd rather focus be put on making sets deliver a great signal fanstastically then focusing on voice activation and built-in web and processing to fix up garbage input (and sometimes they leave some stuff undefeatable and then it just messes with your ideal signals which is really, really annoying so I'd just as soon none of it was in there so they can't end up being tempted to leaving on parts of it hidden under the scenes.)
skibum5000 is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

Tags
Panasonic , Panasonic Viera Tc P55vt50 , Plasma Hdtv , Displays , Panasonic Viera Tc P65vt50 65 Inch Plasma Tv
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off