Official Panasonic VT50 owners thread - Page 379 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #11341 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 08:10 AM
Advanced Member
 
thebishman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 747
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quick question: my VT50 55" is stuttering or juddering during certain panning scenes. I am running the THX Daylight setting currently. Is there a setting that can be disabled to stop this juddering issue?
TIA,
Bish
thebishman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #11342 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 08:40 AM
Senior Member
 
Cuda1169's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 393
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebishman View Post

Quick question: my VT50 55" is stuttering or juddering during certain panning scenes. I am running the THX Daylight setting currently. Is there a setting that can be disabled to stop this juddering issue?
TIA,
Bish

I was under the impression that the VT50 handled judder very well. Are you watching from a blu-ray source. You can change your FPS setting to see if that works. You could also up the motion smoother but you’ll be upping the SOE effect as well.
Cuda1169 is offline  
post #11343 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 08:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mo949's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Something to look at for anybody that cares enough about hiring a "Pro Calibrator" is to start to read Display Calibrations sub forum. http://www.avsforum.com/f/139/display-calibration

Look at 3D LUT Calibrations. Don't let the 3D LUT throw you off, the term "3D" is because of the use of a cube type of calibration and can be used for both normal (non glasses "non- stereo") or normal 3D (stereo, glasses) calibration.

This type (3D LUT) of calibration is much more detailed than a "normal Pro calibration" that is talked about in this thread.
The normal type of calibration is 10 point grayscale and 6 point CMS, the 3D LUT calibration is up to 21 point grayscale and up to 4096 points (or higher) CMS.

There are two draw backs, as I see it.

1. Are VT50's (or any TV) can't store and process this very detailed type of calibration. So you would need to have a external processor/storage that can handle this type of calibration.
2. This type of calibration is cutting edge for home use, so your "Pro calibrator" would have to have the proper type of software (most do) and know how to use it.

ss

Thanks for the info sillysally. Always appreciate your knowledge on the subject.
mo949 is offline  
post #11344 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 08:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,003
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 484
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

More like $650 for the processor.
I don't mean to say a normal calibration like what Chad is going to do is anything but a improvement, but yes you are settling for less.

ss

That's a matter of perspective is it not,? You choose a different more stringent calibration standard, have chosen to invest more to get get the very best out of your display. I choose not to and do what I feel is necessary to get the most of my set, I am more than satisfied with the results of Chad's pro cals and 99% of the folks on this forum would be as well. I appreciate your level of knowledge but I feel what you recommend is impractical for the majority of diy calibrators.

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #11345 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 10:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,691
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

That's a matter of perspective is it not,? You chose a different more stringent calibration standard, have chosen to invest more to get get the very best out of your display. I choose not to and do what I feel is necessary to get the most of my set, I am more than satisfied with the results of Chad's pro cals and 99% of the folks on this forum would be as well. I appreciate your level of knowledge but I feel what you recommend is impractical for the majority of diy calibrators.

Have you ever seen what I am talking about?
.
No its not impractical at all, its more expensive. As folks that think its silly to get a calibration at all would say, and of-course from there point of view they are as right as your point of view.

I am not recommending anything, just pointing out that there is a better way to go for those that want the best.

As for a DIY calibrator, it is not impractical its more costly and a new learning curve.But if done right the rewards are rewarding, and believe when when I say I have a lot more to learn about this type of calibration. .

ss
sillysally is offline  
post #11346 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 02:16 PM
fcb
Advanced Member
 
fcb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 818
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
SillySally, at what point does the software become limited by the accuracy of the meter?

Fred

Don't make 'em like they used to, but charge you double price, promise you steak but give you beans and rice.
Just ain't enough good stuff!

 

Panasonic 65VT60

Yamaha RX-V3900

Ohm Walsh 200 Mk-2

Uverse

HP H8-1360T

fcb is offline  
post #11347 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 02:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gadgtfreek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,807
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 305
While I get the 3D lut thing, there are calibrators that will tell you "not to waste your money" too, and then Ive heard the Spectrecal box doesnt work so well (granted this was a few months ago and maybe its better now). All this from "pro calibrators".

Whenver I get a new display, or Lumagen (insert other name here) comes out with some new razzle dazzle, I just email my guy and ask if I should buy it. The answer is always "dont waste your money". So, while I won't tell you how to spend your money, I just caution you to realize that buying a box to do it with adds one more device in your chain and the cost may not equal the benefit. When it comes to a VT50, you already have a very accurate (when calibrated) display. If you were gonna go out and buy a Lumagen, you should have saved your money and got an ST50 smile.gif

Id hire a good pro, and have them come around yearly for a touchup before dropping money on a Lumagen or something of the sort. Just for dislosure:


  • Yes Ive owned a DVDO Duo and Lumagen
  • No Ive never had a 3D lut calibration
  • Yes the calibrator I get advice from is one of the best in the country
  • Yes I own my own meter and Chromapure and understand calibration quite well

65" VT50 / BDT460
X4000 / Outlaw Model 7125
Klipsch RF82 II and RC62 II / Hsu VTF-15H (2)
Directv HR44-200 / HR24-500
gadgtfreek is offline  
post #11348 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 03:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,003
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 484
Quote:
Originally Posted by fcb View Post

SillySally, at what point does the software become limited by the accuracy of the meter?

Not an expert but the quality of the meter would definitely come into play, so the investment is really software, a spectro at a minimum and a video processor. Could easily run 1500 dollars. Not questioning the accuracy of the resulting cal but the de's on the vt50's with a pro cal are very close to below the ability to see without the extra calibration equipment. Pro cal 400 to 500 dollars, even with annual tune ups every 12 months at lets say 175 a pop you would still come out ahead in the end imo

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #11349 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 03:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,691
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by fcb View Post

SillySally, at what point does the software become limited by the accuracy of the meter?

I would think a i1 Display Pro or even a C3 would do nicely as long as they are working correctly..

A "spectro" like a I1pro (rev D) or a I1pro2 is nice to have but is mainly used to profile a color meter (like the I1 display pro). The problem with a meter like the I1pro (spectro) is they really don't reliably read below 30% (darker gray).Plus you may find the color meter faster than a spector.

When you are doing a larger LUT cube calibration there could be as many as 4900+ triplet patterns that need to be read, as were a normal ISF calibration there are only 7 (W,R,G,B,C,M,Y) non triplet patterns.

Anyway this type of calibration is very new at-least for home calibration and the software and hardware are getting better. However this type of calibration has and is being used by most professorial studios for about 10 years now.

I use a C6 color meter and profile it using Calman's profiler tool and a I1pro2.

ss
sillysally is offline  
post #11350 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 04:14 PM
fcb
Advanced Member
 
fcb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 818
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Thanks, SS. Next, at what point do these ever finer calibrations become not discernible to the human eye?

Fred

Don't make 'em like they used to, but charge you double price, promise you steak but give you beans and rice.
Just ain't enough good stuff!

 

Panasonic 65VT60

Yamaha RX-V3900

Ohm Walsh 200 Mk-2

Uverse

HP H8-1360T

fcb is offline  
post #11351 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 04:22 PM
fcb
Advanced Member
 
fcb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 818
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
To clarify that a bit, from what I have seen of the "before" calibration parameters, THX mode, they aren't bad at all.
Next level would be using someone else's parameters, as D-Nice and others have been nice enough to post here.
A noticeable improvement, at least for my monitor.
I would think next would be self calibration, using a meter and software readily available from say Amazon.
Then, a professional calibration from any of the fine calibrators available. Being in SC, I would likely use D-Nice.
Finally, calibration as sillysally suggests.

At what point do the improvements become unnoticeable?

Fred

Don't make 'em like they used to, but charge you double price, promise you steak but give you beans and rice.
Just ain't enough good stuff!

 

Panasonic 65VT60

Yamaha RX-V3900

Ohm Walsh 200 Mk-2

Uverse

HP H8-1360T

fcb is offline  
post #11352 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 04:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,003
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 484
It becomes a value proposition IMO

If you are starting from scratch you need a colorimeter a spectro Lumigen and then software yes you could do it without the spectro but without an accurate profile you won't get professional results

That's a large investment IMO

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #11353 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 04:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mo949's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 355
If I were to pay the 650$ for an eecolor box, I'd then pay the pro calibrator that knows what he's doing to come calibrate it with his expensive equipment. The 650 is a fixed cost and you can presumably keep using that box on newer TV's if they've future proofed it with 4k support etc. And then you'd just get a pro-calibrator again.

That's how I saw the initial post. The DIY part was just extra info.
mo949 is offline  
post #11354 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 04:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,003
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 484
From that standpoint maybe it makes sense but not for me personally

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #11355 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 05:09 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
htwaits's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 24,766
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked: 462
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

If I were to pay the 650$ for an eecolor box, I'd then pay the pro calibrator that knows what he's doing to come calibrate it with his expensive equipment. The 650 is a fixed cost and you can presumably keep using that box on newer TV's if they've future proofed it with 4k support etc. And then you'd just get a pro-calibrator again.

That's how I saw the initial post. The DIY part was just extra info.
It's really a question of what the owner wants, and can afford. D-Nice calibrates his own displays every year. A friend of mine got into calibrating because he has a 4K Sony projector and the lamps vary over a fairly short period of time. I think SillySally calibrates because he enjoys it. Someone who's time and interest aren't such that they would enjoy the learning curve might afford regular professional calibrations. Our Kuro has been calibrated twice in 5.5 years. If nothing goes wrong, maybe it will be calibrated again in the next five years. wink.gif

Like the wise man sitting on top of K2 said, "It all depends." biggrin.gif
htwaits is offline  
post #11356 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 05:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,691
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by fcb View Post

Thanks, SS. Next, at what point do these ever finer calibrations become not discernible to the human eye?

That's hard to say, from what I know it all depends on how much your TV is off. If we are talking about a normal VT50 I would say at-least 278 points for the CMS and a ruff RGB balance (grayscale), although some say you don't need to do anything to the grayscale.
If you are paying a "Pro" to do it imo I would have a 4096 points done. However if they have software and hardware like mine a 4913 (17^3) calibration would take 9 to 10 hours. If a calibrator is well equipped for this type of calibration like Buzz, about a hour and a half.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

It becomes a value proposition IMO

If you are starting from scratch you need a colorimeter a spectro Lumigen and then software yes you could do it without the spectro but without an accurate profile you won't get professional results

That's a large investment IMO

Yes it is and at that point it becomes a hobby. Yes a color meter and a spectro would be the best way to go for a DIY, but a color meter will do. Also you can buy a used I1pro (rev. D) for about $350. As for the Lumagen Radiance Mini 3D, it is imo the easiest of the processors to use and has a lot of options built-in, the draw back is it will do a 3D LUT cube calibration but only up to 125 points for CMS and 21 point grayscale.
So for the DIY calibrator.
650 for the processor + about $5 for a USB A female to B female cable.. .
395 for the calibration software
249 for a I1 display pro

And a learning curve of about 1 week, understanding that this type of calibration is mostly done in auto mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

If I were to pay the 650$ for an eecolor box, I'd then pay the pro calibrator that knows what he's doing to come calibrate it with his expensive equipment. The 650 is a fixed cost and you can presumably keep using that box on newer TV's if they've future proofed it with 4k support etc. And then you'd just get a pro-calibrator again.

That's how I saw the initial post. The DIY part was just extra info.

Yes you are correct my initial post was for someone having a "Pro" do this type of calibration for them.
Yes the 650 is for the needed hardware to process and store any size cube you want, and yes it is 4k.

And just to be clear, this is just food for thought.

ss
sillysally is offline  
post #11357 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 05:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,003
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 484
I understand all your points agree with all except for the spectro being optional my experience is you can get a good cal but ultimately you run into a meter accuracy wall and if you're going to get all that equipment and invest the learning time why not go all the way?

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #11358 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 06:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Chad B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Piqua, OH
Posts: 2,050
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

More like $650 for the processor.
I don't mean to say a normal calibration like what Chad is going to do is anything but a improvement, but yes you are settling for less.

ss
How about a friendly challenge as to just how much less he is settling for? Nothing meant as a personal attack, more of just a challenge to see how well I can do. biggrin.gif
We'd use the calibration report I get from Chunon's VT50 tomorrow, no doctoring, no spot-reading of any after calibration measurement (except maybe color checker black, because reading that with a spectro can cause problems and I could just retake that one reading later with the C6).
What if I can make the after calibration avg dE2000 of each run of 10 point grayscale/gamma, 50-75-100% gamut luminance, color checker (excluding 0% black reading), and 25% saturation sweeps at 75% lum all no more than .5 higher than your best run with the processor, with no one dE more than 1.5 higher? No one would argue that that difference or less would be visible, would they?tongue.gif
Chad B is online now  
post #11359 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 06:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,003
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 484
I have no problem reaping the rewards of the challenge lol

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #11360 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 06:25 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bond 007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 12,033
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked: 838
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

I have no problem reaping the rewards of the challenge lol
+1

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
Bond 007 is offline  
post #11361 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 09:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
scirica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dallas, TX1
Posts: 1,660
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

I have no problem reaping the rewards of the challenge lol

And then me!!

McIntosh MX121. McIntosh MC205. Focal Aria 948 Main Speakers, Aria CC900 Center. Focal Electra IC 1002 In-Ceiling Surrounds. Paradigm Studio Sub 15. Oppo BDP-105D. Roku XS. Roku 3. Apple TV(3). DirecTV. Panasonic TC-P65VT50. Samsung UN40FH6030F, URC MX-780.
My current SACD list
scirica is online now  
post #11362 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 10:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gadgtfreek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,807
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

How about a friendly challenge as to just how much less he is settling for? Nothing meant as a personal attack, more of just a challenge to see how well I can do. biggrin.gif
We'd use the calibration report I get from Chunon's VT50 tomorrow, no doctoring, no spot-reading of any after calibration measurement (except maybe color checker black, because reading that with a spectro can cause problems and I could just retake that one reading later with the C6).
What if I can make the after calibration avg dE2000 of each run of 10 point grayscale/gamma, 50-75-100% gamut luminance, color checker (excluding 0% black reading), and 25% saturation sweeps at 75% lum all no more than .5 higher than your best run with the processor, with no one dE more than 1.5 higher? No one would argue that that difference or less would be visible, would they?tongue.gif

Exactly. I spoke to the guy I use earlier, and he is expected out in April for my first VT50 cal. He stated we could calibrate in THX Cinema, ISF, and then with the Lumagen, and put the numbers up. His opinion is still that, with a VT50, you do not need a 3D LUT box at that expense. He did say that "some" displays do benefit from one, just not the VT50. IMO, thats another reason I pay the guy, to help me not waste money.

This is an important topic for me, because even though I have a decent budget, it is limited. I have in the past been sucked into the hype, and realized I wasted my money. At some point people have to realize there is a diminishing return. I could easily grab a device that allows the 3D LUT adjustment, but as I've aged, I've learned being able to afford it does not mean you need it.

65" VT50 / BDT460
X4000 / Outlaw Model 7125
Klipsch RF82 II and RC62 II / Hsu VTF-15H (2)
Directv HR44-200 / HR24-500
gadgtfreek is offline  
post #11363 of 13696 Old 03-28-2013, 10:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mo949's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

I said Ive used Gregg, UMR and one other, as well as myself (meaning I have a good idea of the process). All the truth. I also have an issue with the service and result on one of my paid calibrations (Ive had many), but its not something I want to get into here. I just wanted to make note that not all are created equal, regardless of the fanfare on this site (as with all sites there is fanboyism).Get good referrals and spend your money wisely. At the end of the day, your happiness is paramount because its your money.

So who would you recommend based on your experiences?
mo949 is offline  
post #11364 of 13696 Old 03-29-2013, 12:36 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
htwaits's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 24,766
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked: 462
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post


So who would you recommend based on your experiences?
You can read a large number of owner's reports about their professional calibrations using the link in the signature area at the bottom of my post. Flat panel display links are in post number two.
htwaits is offline  
post #11365 of 13696 Old 03-29-2013, 04:00 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wetumpka, AL
Posts: 15,332
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

How about a friendly challenge as to just how much less he is settling for? Nothing meant as a personal attack, more of just a challenge to see how well I can do. biggrin.gif
We'd use the calibration report I get from Chunon's VT50 tomorrow, no doctoring, no spot-reading of any after calibration measurement (except maybe color checker black, because reading that with a spectro can cause problems and I could just retake that one reading later with the C6).
What if I can make the after calibration avg dE2000 of each run of 10 point grayscale/gamma, 50-75-100% gamut luminance, color checker (excluding 0% black reading), and 25% saturation sweeps at 75% lum all no more than .5 higher than your best run with the processor, with no one dE more than 1.5 higher? No one would argue that that difference or less would be visible, would they?tongue.gif

I think we'd all love to see this.

While you're on this thread, I'd like to get your opinion on a fundamental issue I have with using an external processor for a 3d LUT on the 65VT50s. That problem is that due to how this display shifts at various APL levels, you'd have to have a 4th element in the calculations...that being APL levels. As far as I can tell, non of these additional LUT processes include this. If you did it at 10 APL levels, add a zero to the number of hours it'd take. So if someone is trying to get a totally (emphasis on the word "totally") accurate picture (given the APL issue), they can't get there with 3D tables on a VT50. They'd be better off replacing their VT50 with a display that behaves better. Currently, it sounds like the Samsung F8500 and possibly the ZT60.

If anyone of the DIY calibrators wants food for thought. Do a grayscale run with a 5% non APL window. Then do a run with a 10.8% window and a constant APL of 25%. Fix that with an external processor that doesn't consider APL in their calculation. And if it did with say 40,000 item LUT what do you think would happen to lip synch while it's searching for the right triplet +1 ?

Thoughts Chad????

Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50, Oppo 95, Tivo Roamio for OTA, Dish VIP722, Marantz AV8801 preamp, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP, Calman 5, Chromapure, Accupel DVG-5000, i1Display3pro, i1pro2, eecolor colorbox.
JimP is online now  
post #11366 of 13696 Old 03-29-2013, 04:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,003
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 484
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

I think we'd all love to see this.

While you're on this thread, I'd like to get your opinion on a fundamental issue I have with using an external processor for a 3d LUT on the 65VT50s. That problem is that due to how this display shifts at various APL levels, you'd have to have a 4th element in the calculations...that being APL levels. As far as I can tell, non of these additional LUT processes include this. If you did it at 10 APL levels, add a zero to the number of hours it'd take. So if someone is trying to get a totally (emphasis on the word "totally") accurate picture (given the APL issue), they can't get there with 3D tables on a VT50. They'd be better off replacing their VT50 with a display that behaves better. Currently, it sounds like the Samsung F8500 and possibly the ZT60.

If anyone of the DIY calibrators wants food for thought. Do a grayscale run with a 5% non APL window. Then do a run with a 10.8% window and a constant APL of 25%. Fix that with an external processor that doesn't consider APL in their calculation. And if it did with say 40,000 item LUT what do you think would happen to lip synch while it's searching for the right triplet +1 ?

Thoughts Chad????

Is there such a thing as a "totally" accurate display I am okay with "settling" smile.gif

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #11367 of 13696 Old 03-29-2013, 04:52 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wetumpka, AL
Posts: 15,332
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Is there such a thing as a "totally" accurate display I am okay with "settling" smile.gif

Ultimately, there probably isn't. Even if there were, you're still subject to the content provider finding ways to screw it up. That's when you figure out that as long as if its within a certain range of acceptability, that it's "good enough."

Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50, Oppo 95, Tivo Roamio for OTA, Dish VIP722, Marantz AV8801 preamp, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP, Calman 5, Chromapure, Accupel DVG-5000, i1Display3pro, i1pro2, eecolor colorbox.
JimP is online now  
post #11368 of 13696 Old 03-29-2013, 04:53 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bond 007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 12,033
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked: 838
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Is there such a thing as a "totally" accurate display I am okay with "settling" smile.gif
I cant answer that but obviously at some point the difference becomes so insignificant that you cant tell the difference.

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
Bond 007 is offline  
post #11369 of 13696 Old 03-29-2013, 05:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,003
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

I cant answer that but obviously at some point the difference becomes so insignificant that you cant tell the difference.

And that is my main point here, yes for a small percentage of folks that want to go beyond even a standard pro calibration its great that there are tools out there to further that, But I contend the rewards are diminishingly small past a certain point. I consider myself picky picture quality wise but if you get de below a certain threshold and don't have a true reference to compare it to what else can you do. For me that is more than sufficient. At some point I actually like to sit down and enjoy my set smile.gif

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #11370 of 13696 Old 03-29-2013, 05:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,691
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

How about a friendly challenge as to just how much less he is settling for? Nothing meant as a personal attack, more of just a challenge to see how well I can do. biggrin.gif
We'd use the calibration report I get from Chunon's VT50 tomorrow, no doctoring, no spot-reading of any after calibration measurement (except maybe color checker black, because reading that with a spectro can cause problems and I could just retake that one reading later with the C6).
What if I can make the after calibration avg dE2000 of each run of 10 point grayscale/gamma, 50-75-100% gamut luminance, color checker (excluding 0% black reading), and 25% saturation sweeps at 75% lum all no more than .5 higher than your best run with the processor, with no one dE more than 1.5 higher? No one would argue that that difference or less would be visible, would they?tongue.gif

I think you are missing my point. The processor I am talking about really has nothing to do with the 3D LUT cube calibration except being able to processes and store up to 6 different LUT calibrations. As were a "normal 10 point "grayscale/gamma" and 1D 6 point CMS that the VT50 can store and process is far less detailed than a 3D LUT cube with 17^3 (4913 points)

As far as a "10 point grayscale/gamma" goes, instead of running (what ever you use to check "grayscale/gamma") run a 21 point check and see what is the differences between 10 point and 21 point after calibration.

Below see pictures. The first chart is a "normal 1D Chart", the second is a full 3D LUT cube cart.


I am sure I am not telling you something that you already know, just giving a visual for the differences.
Also, I am not saying that you will not improve your clients PQ and I am sure you are a very competent calibrator . All I am saying is this type of calibration may be something to consider.
And of-course the biggest problem to overcome is the APL levels, and imo that is to some degree why any calibration is hit or miss when calibrating a Plasma TV, so because of this dE 2000 numbers can not always tell the real story. wink.gif

For me what tells me (saying brightness, contrast, ect. are set right) I have a better calibration is when the flesh tones and blues seem to me to be life like, and of-course all the other colors God gives us.

ss
sillysally is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

Tags
Panasonic , Panasonic Viera Tc P55vt50 , Plasma Hdtv , Displays , Panasonic Viera Tc P65vt50 65 Inch Plasma Tv
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off