The Official Panasonic VT50 Settings Thread - Page 64 - AVS Forum
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post #1891 of 2157 Old 08-08-2013, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Z-Mad View Post

However, i am concerned by the fact stated in the links you provided that 2012 Panny's are very poor performers when it comes to long duration IR. Other models seem to do considerably better in that arena. I'm almost compelled to rather not fix my IR and have the set replaced with this year's model instead, if it's any better...
What do you use to detect the IR that you see?

How will you have your set replaced?

The information about the 2012 Panny IR problems may be exaggerated. I'm sure that Panasonic or any other manufacturer wouldn't release such data for an accurate analysis. There are IR reports for all plasmas this year. As always it's hard to determine what exactly is going on.
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post #1892 of 2157 Old 08-08-2013, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

well, what is 5% off worth to you?

To me, i'd suspect it'd mean the difference between natural looking fleshtones and tinted ones. When I switch to THX cinema mode now, the instantaneous switch may be somewhat small looking, but the sites I see as I begin to watch are all 'colored' wrong and seem to be a bit green. When I go to THX brightroom I see everything looking washed out and what appears to be white 'crush' (? not sure if this is a term).

Mo, I gotta thank you for pointing out some of those details which motivated me to look a bit closer: I do see some differences between THX and my calibration. If one doesn't look a bit closer/longer, it's easy to perceive the picture as practically the same in a quick look, but the closer look does reveal some of the dynamic range and grayscale differences. THX does seem to have a little bit of that greenish feel to it, too. I switched back and forth and looked closer, also making sure I'm not imagining it, and sure enough, I do recognize improvements my calibration achieved over THX. Made me feel better about what I've accomplished too, lol biggrin.gif
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post #1893 of 2157 Old 08-08-2013, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

What do you use to detect the IR that you see?

How will you have your set replaced?

The information about the 2012 Panny IR problems may be exaggerated. I'm sure that Panasonic or any other manufacturer wouldn't release such data for an accurate analysis. There are IR reports for all plasmas this year. As always it's hard to determine what exactly is going on.

I actually don't really look for IR specifically or use anything special to detect it. I am just conscious of the potential IR so I don't really watch the same channel all day long, I don't game on the VT50, etc (I have a Sharp LED for that). So I notice it only if it literally becomes noticeable when watching regular content. Noticing it tho does bug me... High quality picture ruined by such retained images is kind of a shame...
I purchased (and not too cheaply) full extended coverage for the TV which includes IR coverage. So if IR is persistent and truly an issue (which I could demo to a technician), I could ask for a fix, which at this point would most likely mean replacing the set with this year's equivalent model (i.e. VT60), if the IR is really bad. Of course I'm not sure if VT60 is any better in this regard and would love to find out. Where could I read the report on IR you mentioned?
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post #1894 of 2157 Old 08-08-2013, 02:13 PM
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Z - and thank you for confirming that I ain't crazy wink.gif

or atleast I've hit a common area of crazy smile.gif
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post #1895 of 2157 Old 08-08-2013, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Z - and thank you for confirming that I ain't crazy wink.gif

or atleast I've hit a common area of crazy smile.gif

Happy to confirm you're in the same realm of "crazy" as the rest of us, lol
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post #1896 of 2157 Old 08-08-2013, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-Mad View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

What do you use to detect the IR that you see?

How will you have your set replaced?

The information about the 2012 Panny IR problems may be exaggerated. I'm sure that Panasonic or any other manufacturer wouldn't release such data for an accurate analysis. There are IR reports for all plasmas this year. As always it's hard to determine what exactly is going on.

I actually don't really look for IR specifically or use anything special to detect it. I am just conscious of the potential IR so I don't really watch the same channel all day long, I don't game on the VT50, etc (I have a Sharp LED for that). So I notice it only if it literally becomes noticeable when watching regular content. Noticing it tho does bug me... High quality picture ruined by such retained images is kind of a shame...
I purchased (and not too cheaply) full extended coverage for the TV which includes IR coverage. So if IR is persistent and truly an issue (which I could demo to a technician), I could ask for a fix, which at this point would most likely mean replacing the set with this year's equivalent model (i.e. VT60), if the IR is really bad. Of course I'm not sure if VT60 is any better in this regard and would love to find out. Where could I read the report on IR you mentioned?
Thanks for answering my questions. In your situation, I would go ahead with the warranty option. The VT60 has been called the best display for the price in 2013 so it's probably an overall upgrade.

I've never had a BB warranty. What I've read is that when they do a major repair or exchange, then the warranty is terminated. If that's true then you need to add that into the cost of doing an exchange.

Good luck with which ever path you select. You probably have plenty of time to make up your mind.

I'm ready for some football! biggrin.gif

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post #1897 of 2157 Old 08-09-2013, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

There are advantages of having your own equipment and doing it yourself. But I respect anyone who will settle for nothing less than getting your set calibrated by a reference grade spectro and a top notch pro calibrator.

(I just selected your post at random in the discussion about using a pro vs DIY)...

I'd qualify it like this:

It's an advantage to use a talented professional or a good one who has a lot of experience with your set.

Many (most?) "professional calibrators" will just hook up (an albeit better) meter, checklist through the calibration procedure, show you that the numbers look good, then hand you a bill.

I do feel like I can do a better job than that with a cheaper meter and some time invested in researching my set - what works - what doesn't. Watching the picture for a while and thinking about what's not good then looking into how to accurately approach the calibration differently to correct it, (like switching APL pattern size, etc).

Another reason is the set ages and needs recalibration. I don't want to pay a professional over and over if I don't have to.

But to repeat, a TALENTED professional or at least one with lots of background in your particular set will give you a better calibration than DIY - no doubt.
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post #1898 of 2157 Old 08-09-2013, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by dbillen View Post

(I just selected your post at random in the discussion about using a pro vs DIY)...

I'd qualify it like this:

It's an advantage to use a talented professional or a good one who has a lot of experience with your set.

Many (most?) "professional calibrators" will just hook up (an albeit better) meter, checklist through the calibration procedure, show you that the numbers look good, then hand you a bill.

I do feel like I can do a better job than that with a cheaper meter and some time invested in researching my set - what works - what doesn't. Watching the picture for a while and thinking about what's not good then looking into how to accurately approach the calibration differently to correct it, (like switching APL pattern size, etc).

Another reason is the set ages and needs recalibration. I don't want to pay a professional over and over if I don't have to.

But to repeat, a TALENTED professional or at least one with lots of background in your particular set will give you a better calibration than DIY - no doubt.

Fully agree with you... A really good and experienced pro will probably squeeze out that extra notch out of your set, but doing it yourself allows all those things you described in your post, which also means fantastic and well calibrated picture, plus the fun/hobby factor biggrin.gif And yes, many calibrators considering themselves pros may not even do half as good of a job as you'll do yourself, lets not even talk about Geek Squad calibrations - imagine some people pay I believe $250 or more for that...
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post #1899 of 2157 Old 08-10-2013, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Actually Calman has an okay interface-ddc but ControlCal is superior in a lot of ways and way cheaper imo

Got ControlCal....

Within 2 minutes of working with it I can no longer imagine calibrating without it. You can actually use continuous readings eek.gif

The sliders could stand some work, (I can only use them to ballpark a setting then have to start typing in values to nail it).

Just to play with it I set my night mode to D55. It's warm and film like. But I bet I last about 45 minutes watching it before I go load back D65.
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post #1900 of 2157 Old 08-10-2013, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dbillen View Post

Got ControlCal....

Within 2 minutes of working with it I can no longer imagine calibrating without it.

Thank you wink.gif

This feedback is common from users...



Quote:
Originally Posted by dbillen View Post

The sliders could stand some work, (I can only use them to ballpark a setting then have to start typing in values to nail it). .

For small / fine adjustments:

Mouse: You can select a control's slider and click to the left/right of the handle (horizontals) or up/down of handle (verticals).

and/or

Keyboard: You can select a control's slider and press the left/right arrow keys (horizontals) or up/down arrow keys (verticals).

Tab / Shift Tab to move between the controls.

Give it a try.

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post #1901 of 2157 Old 08-10-2013, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by dbillen View Post

Got ControlCal....

Within 2 minutes of working with it I can no longer imagine calibrating without it. You can actually use continuous readings eek.gif

The sliders could stand some work, (I can only use them to ballpark a setting then have to start typing in values to nail it).

Just to play with it I set my night mode to D55. It's warm and film like. But I bet I last about 45 minutes watching it before I go load back D65.

I just got Controlcal too. Looking to re-do my calibration with i1Pro this time. Sure wasn't gonna burn in that MENU image in my panel any further and spend the whole day messing back and forth with the remote and menus. When I think about it, every small adjustment (say in CMS) takes scrolling through 3 or 4 sub-menus to get to changing your value even by a notch up or down... Then you have to get out completely to expose your pattern window and not to mess up the reading... WOW! The more I think about it the more "shocked" I am how inefficient this is and can't believe Panasonic didn't come up with a better solution... Oh well, thankfully there's Controlcal smile.gif
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post #1902 of 2157 Old 08-10-2013, 12:17 PM
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The new vt60s have iPhone/ipad calibration apps that let you control everything I heard.

There's a pic down in here http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1368523071
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post #1903 of 2157 Old 08-10-2013, 12:41 PM
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^^^
Just for Custom on the 60 Series and the interface is not the best for doing an actual calibration... ControlCAL is as popular with users on the VT60 / ZT60 as for the past display models including from most the Calibrators you know and hear about around here. Interface! Functionality! Features! Reliability!

More to come from ControlCAL's offerings, for all supported models and all supported Picture Modes that ControlCAL has now... wink.gif

.

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post #1904 of 2157 Old 08-10-2013, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by turbe View Post

^^^
Just for Custom on the 60 Series and the interface is not the best for doing an actual calibration... ControlCAL is as popular with users on the VT60 / ZT60 as for the past display models including from most the Calibrators you know and hear about around here. Interface! Functionality! Features! Reliability!

More to come from ControlCAL's offerings, for all supported models and all supported Picture Modes that ControlCAL has now... wink.gif

.

Good to know that ControlCal will work if I get a VT60 replacement for my "blob-ridden" VT50 panel. Is there a re-license fee to go from the VT50 CC license to VT60?

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post #1905 of 2157 Old 08-10-2013, 01:15 PM
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yes, the 60 Series is a separate activation.. just email me once you get your VT60 reminding me of this post and I'll give you details.

I'm curious, are you getting the swap under warranty?

Lastly, did you watch any of the 2013 shootout videos? tongue.gif ControlCAL was the control interface for the VT60 and ZT60 in the Shootout.. both Kevin Miller and D-nice speak about it several times on the videos.. biggrin.gif

One video:
Tools used starts at 19:00:00, about ControlCAL at 19:22:00 - 20:28:00

Tools used starts at 19:00:00, about ControlCAL at 19:22:00 - 20:28:00

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post #1906 of 2157 Old 08-10-2013, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by turbe View Post

^^^
Just for Custom on the 60 Series and the interface is not the best for doing an actual calibration... ControlCAL is as popular with users on the VT60 / ZT60 as for the past display models including from most the Calibrators you know and hear about around here. Interface! Functionality! Features! Reliability!

More to come from ControlCAL's offerings, for all supported models and all supported Picture Modes that ControlCAL has now... wink.gif

.

I just started using Controlcal, and I love it already! As dbillen mentioned, I too agree and couldn't even imagine calibrating my VT50 without it. Hell, I even suffered IR from Panasonic's on screen menu just to get through a calibration. With the tips from turbe on ease of use, it's really a breeze now. Can't recommend it highly enough...
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post #1907 of 2157 Old 08-10-2013, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

yes, the 60 Series is a separate activation.. just email me once you get your VT60 reminding me of this post and I'll give you details.

I'm curious, are you getting the swap under warranty?

I have not made the call yet. I got my panel in December '12 and my blobs are pretty bad. I'm using the "VSUS on High" tweak for now to keep them as faint as possible. I plan on waiting a couple of months to make sure we are out of VT50's, which I believe is already true. I'll be sure to ping you when I need a new activation!

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post #1908 of 2157 Old 08-10-2013, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-Mad View Post

Fully agree with you... A really good and experienced pro will probably squeeze out that extra notch out of your set, but doing it yourself allows all those things you described in your post, which also means fantastic and well calibrated picture, plus the fun/hobby factor biggrin.gif And yes, many calibrators considering themselves pros may not even do half as good of a job as you'll do yourself, lets not even talk about Geek Squad calibrations - imagine some people pay I believe $250 or more for that...

I don't believe anyone is referring to just any pro here, Chad B, DNICE, UMR to name a few are truly the highest quality pros there are in the business. The probably is a certainty with these guys, not casting aspersions on DIY effort but unless you have professional equipment you are not going to get professional results.

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post #1909 of 2157 Old 08-10-2013, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbillen View Post

(I just selected your post at random in the discussion about using a pro vs DIY)...

I'd qualify it like this:

It's an advantage to use a talented professional or a good one who has a lot of experience with your set.

Many (most?) "professional calibrators" will just hook up (an albeit better) meter, checklist through the calibration procedure, show you that the numbers look good, then hand you a bill.

I do feel like I can do a better job than that with a cheaper meter and some time invested in researching my set - what works - what doesn't. Watching the picture for a while and thinking about what's not good then looking into how to accurately approach the calibration differently to correct it, (like switching APL pattern size, etc).

Another reason is the set ages and needs recalibration. I don't want to pay a professional over and over if I don't have to.

But to repeat, a TALENTED professional or at least one with lots of background in your particular set will give you a better calibration than DIY - no doubt.

Sorry but that is not how most calibrators work if they are any good, it is a very interactive process and if they are truly dedicated they will continue to work on your set until you are satisfied. Recalibration if needed is relatively inexpensive or is sold as part of the calibration package. Spending time with a cheaper meter is certainly a way to get good results but again you are running into a meter accuracy wall, no matter what you do you will not get around that limitation.
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post #1910 of 2157 Old 08-10-2013, 08:29 PM
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Ah ok I was wondering about that, hopefully we can get a setting for football this falljUCq
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post #1911 of 2157 Old 08-10-2013, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Sorry but that is not how most calibrators work if they are any good, it is a very interactive process and if they are truly dedicated they will continue to work on your set until you are satisfied. Recalibration if needed is relatively inexpensive or is sold as part of the calibration package. Spending time with a cheaper meter is certainly a way to get good results but again you are running into a meter accuracy wall, no matter what you do you will not get around that limitation.
Ya, you're only as good as your meter. The top pros use very expensive spectros that are more accurate than what DIYers typically use, and ultimately their goal is to make the customer happy... not just calibrate and show you the results. Plus they have a lot of experience so they know how to get the best out of each model. No way will a typical DIYer get better results than an experienced pro with the equipment they use. At best you can get very close.

The benefits of having your own equipment is that you can calibrate whenever and as many times as you want. Drift does happen on all panels and all display types (some faster than others) so being able to touch-up or re-calibrate is a big plus. But also know that meters are also known to drift too, however something like a D3 or i1pro have shown to hold up well after several years when stored properly (cool, dry, and dark place).
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post #1912 of 2157 Old 08-12-2013, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Sorry but that is not how most calibrators work if they are any good, it is a very interactive process and if they are truly dedicated they will continue to work on your set until you are satisfied. Recalibration if needed is relatively inexpensive or is sold as part of the calibration package. Spending time with a cheaper meter is certainly a way to get good results but again you are running into a meter accuracy wall, no matter what you do you will not get around that limitation.

Well true - as you said - "if they are any good".

Hanging around a site like this it's easy to get the impression that they are all great. But they usually work for a store that sells TV's or some AV installation full-service company or something and someone pretty much just trained them to use a meter and the calibration software. Even some ISF's just got through the test and don't really know or care.

Even with some of the respected pros you must be careful. Once I paid $700 for a calibration on a Mits CRT rear projector, the guy was a big shot and a few of us paid for him to come in from out of state. After calibrating he had jacked up the color!! ! I saw it right away and he admitted "people like that". I have no idea what other stupid thing he did. The whole picture was awfully bright and orange, (even though he had corrected the red push).
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post #1913 of 2157 Old 08-12-2013, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbillen View Post

Well true - as you said - "if they are any good".

Hanging around a site like this it's easy to get the impression that they are all great. But they usually work for a store that sells TV's or some AV installation full-service company or something and someone pretty much just trained them to use a meter and the calibration software. Even some ISF's just got through the test and don't really know or care.

Even with some of the respected pros you must be careful. Once I paid $700 for a calibration on a Mits CRT rear projector, the guy was a big shot and a few of us paid for him to come in from out of state. After calibrating he had jacked up the color!! ! I saw it right away and he admitted "people like that". I have no idea what other stupid thing he did. The whole picture was awfully bright and orange, (even though he had corrected the red push).

No offense but please exclude the pros that hang out here from that analysis, they do not work for AV installation companies and they have spent lots of time and money learning their craft. Years and years of experience and 1000s of sets. I am not talking about BB/Geeksquad calibrations. I can only speak of the calibrators that hangout here they are all very experienced and deliver quality calibrations. If you choose to believe they are over hyped or that their reputations arent deserved that is your choice. I wrote an honest review and there is no way I could achieve those results with an entry level colorimeter, doesnt matter how much time I invest it just isnt going to happen. Investing in a spectro will get you most of the way there but again it will take alot of time investment to achieve comparable results.
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post #1914 of 2157 Old 08-12-2013, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

Ya, you're only as good as your meter. The top pros use very expensive spectros that are more accurate than what DIYers typically use, and ultimately their goal is to make the customer happy... not just calibrate and show you the results. Plus they have a lot of experience so they know how to get the best out of each model. No way will a typical DIYer get better results than an experienced pro with the equipment they use. At best you can get very close.

In my post, I was trying to be very careful to qualify my remarks and distinguish between a "top pro" and a day to day calibrator someone might run out and hire. Nobody in their right mind would compare the results of "a typical DYIer" to those of a "top pro with a very expensive spectro".

As to the meter quality - For home viewing I find that to mostly be a factor in calibrating the levels and grays < 30 IRE. The meter errors at levels bright enough to read tend to be linear, like you tweaked the transform matrix slightly. The result is that the overall color temperature is not as accurate as you'd get from a spectro, but it's consistent. As you probably already know - you'll adapt to small errors in color temperature in the dark, (actually large ones if you watch long enough). In a lit you room you won't. But you won't adapt to D65 in a lit room either. What you usually see with uncalibrated color temperature is inconsistency at different levels and between the grayscale and the color decoding. If all that is calibrated to match then the error needs to be relatively bad to be visible - generally outside the error range of a "cheap meter", (though I once used a Spyder that was... "that bad").

I'd love to have a better meter, but I might have different standards here than some of you. I want my settings consistent and accurate LOOKING for home viewing. I have no professional application that requires my set to match up with someone elses or a print image. I can not see small percentage errors without something to compare the image against.
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post #1915 of 2157 Old 08-12-2013, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

If you choose to believe they are over hyped or that their reputations arent deserved that is your choice.

It seems I've accidentally entered a touchy area here - not realizing it.

I didn't even close to say anything remotely disparaging about any calibrator from AVS forums. I don't know any of them but assume I would be very lucky to have any one of them calibrate my VT50, (and would never want to touch it with my i1 again).

The ISF's around here are some of the best in their field. Nothing like the round-town calibrators one might run across.

I made the point that there does exist - on this earth - some respected pros that aren't so good. I bet most respected pros would be the first to agree with me on that. I've encountered a bad one - from a different forum - different TV - like 10 years ago. And in fact, he was very good. He just had a cynical attitude towards what he was doing. I guess a lot of people were not happy with correct calibrations, (which does happen), and he rationalized more and more adding a few "tweaks" that people liked.
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post #1916 of 2157 Old 08-12-2013, 11:03 AM
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I don't think you need to worry. Its only touchy if you mess with about 2 people that probably aren't all that representative of the calibrator field in general for which you are speaking of. So all is still well smile.gif

And yes I agree with you that you don't need perfection to be happy. In this case (for me) perfection just happens to be cheaper wink.gif
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post #1917 of 2157 Old 08-12-2013, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

No offense but please exclude the pros that hang out here from that analysis

Oh I see what might have caused the mixup. I said:

"Hanging around a site like this it's easy to get the impression that they are all great."

..which sounds like I mean the calibrators around here. No, I just meant hanging around this site you might think of calibrators as all being great at what they do - because the ones here are so knowledgable. But that the ones out in the real world are not the ones here and are often not so great.
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post #1918 of 2157 Old 08-12-2013, 12:19 PM
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Yes there are bad calibrators just like any profession. we are lucky here that we have two of the very best but I would concede that is probably the exception rather than the rule. No offense taken just misinterpreted what you said.

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post #1919 of 2157 Old 08-12-2013, 12:38 PM
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Kevin Miller calibrated my set. Pq looks awesome.

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post #1920 of 2157 Old 08-12-2013, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Yes there are bad calibrators just like any profession. we are lucky here that we have two of the very best but I would concede that is probably the exception rather than the rule. No offense taken just misinterpreted what you said.
Maybe five or six. wink.gif
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