Is 30fps judder on plasmas (specifically ST30) more noticable than on a CRT? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 05-18-2012, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Thinking of getting a display model ST30 for Xbox 360 gaming, but kinda worried about 30fps judder.
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post #2 of 16 Old 05-18-2012, 08:52 AM
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It is an issue I just got a 60st30 was unaware of the judder and find it bothers me alot still not used to it after a month.
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post #3 of 16 Old 05-18-2012, 09:03 AM
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Here's your choices:

Deal with the 'judder' as plasma's accurate portrayal of the 30fps source, or

Deal with smear, blur or frame interpolation which, while looking nice, will add gobs of lag to your gaming, or

Demand developers put more emphasis on 60fps by refusing to buy 30fps games (this last one might be unreasonable as that Xbox 360 is based on PowerPC architecture and most gamers don't care or even notice).

"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."

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post #4 of 16 Old 05-18-2012, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the advice. So Im guessing the judder IS more noticable on plasma than crt. Thats an issue for me, cause I hated the judder on my old low end plasma and im guessing the st30 wont be much different in that regard. I definitely dont want to use motion smoother cause input lag pretty much ruins games for me. And I agree, all devs should start switching to 60fps. Anyway, would lcd/led be a better choice for me? Or maybe even dlp? (depth doesnt bother me) Like i said judder and input lag basicaly ruin games for me, so i want to avoid those drawbacks as much as possible.
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post #5 of 16 Old 05-18-2012, 09:31 AM
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You're blaming the display technology, but are you comparing the same size display?
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post #6 of 16 Old 05-18-2012, 10:02 AM
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I use game mode on my UT50 and motion is excellent on FPS games.
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post #7 of 16 Old 05-18-2012, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuiGonJosh View Post

I use game mode on my UT50 and motion is excellent on FPS games.

It IS excellent-- nobody would argue that-- the issue the OP is discussing is that it's a little TOO good.

"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."

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post #8 of 16 Old 05-18-2012, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lackingvoltage View Post

Thanks for the advice. So Im guessing the judder IS more noticable on plasma than crt. Thats an issue for me, cause I hated the judder on my old low end plasma and im guessing the st30 wont be much different in that regard. I definitely dont want to use motion smoother cause input lag pretty much ruins games for me. And I agree, all devs should start switching to 60fps. Anyway, would lcd/led be a better choice for me? Or maybe even dlp? (depth doesnt bother me) Like i said judder and input lag basicaly ruin games for me, so i want to avoid those drawbacks as much as possible.

I find LED/LCD to be very limited for gaming. The issue is LCD has very poor motion handling (smearing and blur) especially with 30fps games. To fix this, manufacturers invented frame interpolation-- which fixes the motion but adds input latency. So you can either have low latency OR good motion handling NOT BOTH. (I should mention that I've never had an issue with 60fps games on LCD-- they look great)

Plasma allows for both excellent motion handling AND low input latency.

Like the poster above me stated: your real issue is SIZE not the actual technology of the display. The reason your CRT worked so well is it was small. It isn't that plasma is worse-- it's just BIG!

"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."

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post #9 of 16 Old 05-18-2012, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Well the one im looking at is 46"...
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post #10 of 16 Old 05-18-2012, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lackingvoltage View Post

Well the one im looking at is 46"...

Look-- you're not going to get an answer you like.

The issue is the GAME not your display. 30fps games were never meant for 46" HD screens let alone 60" and up! Maybe hang on to your smaller display until the next round of consoles hits the market and upgrade then. It's like all the guys who complained about Wii looking dull (myself included)-- well, no kidding, the Wii was designed for SDTV and small HDTV. Of course it's going to look bad when you blow it up!

For what it's worth-- the 'judder' doesn't bother me much any more. You just kind of get used to it.

"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."

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post #11 of 16 Old 08-22-2012, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post


Plasma allows for both excellent motion handling AND low input latency.

Sorry to dig this thread out of the grave, but I have to inform anyone who might be reading this that the above statement is EXTREMELY misleading. Yes, plasma is great for low input latency, and yes, plasma is great for motion handling when it comes to BLUR and when it comes to 60FPS sources (no judder). BUT, as I have painfully found out from my recent experience with a 64E7000 Samsung plasma, a plasma is TERRIBLE for 30FPS game sources. The amount of judder you will see is UNREAL. Imagine a flickering/vibrating double ghost image, two inches offset from the main image, any time you pan the camera. Features like AutoMotionPlus alleviate this problem on LCDs significantly, but the Samsung plasma has no such assistance for 60Hz mode, where 30FPS games are honestly unplayable. (60FPS games are perfect). Even with the AMP feature off on LCDs, the judder isn't nearly as distracting as on plasma. With AMP on, even on low, its not really a problem at all.

So, if you have a lot of 360/PS3 games that run at 30FPS (and almost all do, notable exception being Rage), DO NOT buy any plasma that does not have some intense motion smoothing ability for 60Hz sources, or you will be in judder hell. Instead get an LCD with some sort of motion interpolation feature. You might get a little lag, but unless you are a pro gamer online FPS freak, that is not NEARLY as distracting and downright sickening as the judder I am seeing on my new plasma. (Which is getting exchanged for a Samsung LED 240Hz with ClearMotionRate 960 specifically to address this problem... and others).
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post #12 of 16 Old 10-21-2012, 05:25 PM
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What about todays Plasmas.

Are LCDs still the way to go for console gaming ( 30fps)?
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post #13 of 16 Old 10-22-2012, 05:20 PM
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No one any insight?

To make things clear, i am not talking about double images or motionblur. I mean that Plasmas tend to have no smooth movements like lcds with 30 fps games.

However since better Plasmas came out i am curious if this problem ist still existing.
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post #14 of 16 Old 10-24-2012, 02:58 PM
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That's odd the only time I've noticed judder is with Resident Evil 5 (Xbox360) but I just assumed it was game specific since it's the only one that actually bothered me over the last 4 years (Kuro 5080HD).

I recently finished Dishonored and the 30fps framerate looked fine.
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post #15 of 16 Old 10-26-2012, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius View Post

Sorry to dig this thread out of the grave, but I have to inform anyone who might be reading this that the above statement is EXTREMELY misleading. Yes, plasma is great for low input latency, and yes, plasma is great for motion handling when it comes to BLUR and when it comes to 60FPS sources (no judder). BUT, as I have painfully found out from my recent experience with a 64E7000 Samsung plasma, a plasma is TERRIBLE for 30FPS game sources. The amount of judder you will see is UNREAL. Imagine a flickering/vibrating double ghost image, two inches offset from the main image, any time you pan the camera. Features like AutoMotionPlus alleviate this problem on LCDs significantly, but the Samsung plasma has no such assistance for 60Hz mode, where 30FPS games are honestly unplayable. (60FPS games are perfect). Even with the AMP feature off on LCDs, the judder isn't nearly as distracting as on plasma. With AMP on, even on low, its not really a problem at all.
So, if you have a lot of 360/PS3 games that run at 30FPS (and almost all do, notable exception being Rage), DO NOT buy any plasma that does not have some intense motion smoothing ability for 60Hz sources, or you will be in judder hell. Instead get an LCD with some sort of motion interpolation feature. You might get a little lag, but unless you are a pro gamer online FPS freak, that is not NEARLY as distracting and downright sickening as the judder I am seeing on my new plasma. (Which is getting exchanged for a Samsung LED 240Hz with ClearMotionRate 960 specifically to address this problem... and others).
Technically, it's not going to be " a little lag", it's going to be a lot.
Motion interpolation + image processing done by the display (can't use game mode) + controller lag for wireless controllers + input lag that some games have by default...(breath) all combined will likely be an issue for any game requiring even normal reaction times.
Double imaging can be irritating but I got used to it quickly and prefer it over something that will negatively impact the gameplay of the majority of games I play.
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post #16 of 16 Old 10-27-2012, 09:57 PM
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I find this a bit confusing because the reviews for the Panasonic plasmas I've read have all commented that they work great for 360 gaming, so do they have this "intense motion smoothing ability for 60Hz sources"?
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