Samsung PN60E7000 Vs. Panasonic P60ST50 - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 64 Old 06-01-2012, 03:57 PM
Senior Member
 
ll Viper ll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 448
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

You can't compare two televisions without properly calibrating them. Using CNET's Settings is no better than hitting reset on all of your settings. There is a huge amount of variance, not only from television to television, but also over the age of a single panel, especially early in its life.

This is evident in the fact that you detected the the E7000's black levels were higher than the D7000's... which they're not, at least when calibrated correctly.

everything you have said in this post and later ones is almost 100% on point...him seeing the e7000's black levels as no better than the d7000's is very likely a result of having the newer st50 as a comparison. however, it's not like calibration has (much of) anything to do with MLL
ll Viper ll is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 64 Old 06-01-2012, 09:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
Tempest261's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 766
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll Viper ll View Post

however, it's not like calibration has (much of) anything to do with MLL

You can't measure MLL without a properly set brightness control.

Calibration Equipment:

Meters: X-rite i1 Pro 2, X-rite i1 Display Pro

Software: Spectracal Calman DIY, ControlCAL

 

Televisions:

Panasonic TC-P65VT50 (currently own)
Samsung UN55D8000 (returned)
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 

Plasma IR Removal:


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 

Tempest261 is offline  
post #33 of 64 Old 06-03-2012, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BiotypE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Well after much testing and deliberation I decided I am going to send the E7000 back.

It is NOT a very good TV for gaming for several reasons.

1. Input lag in game mode is noticeable compared to the ST50, which seems better in both game and custom mode (without processing)

2. The black level performance of this set is really NOT very good in comparison and this affects the games graphically in a noticeable way. Games look pretty blah on the E7000 in comparison and this isn't a marginal difference I am talking about, there is a HUGE difference in how games look between the two sets. Textures, lighting, motion....literally everything looks and plays better on the ST50.

3. It is a minor annoyance but having to go three or four menus deep to change the E7000 to game mode is a little annoying and having to reverse those steps if you want to switch to TV viewing is equally annoying.

Any game you play that has dark scenes or levels just looks crappy in comparison. Decent without the comparison but you can really appreciate how really deep black levels affect image quality.

The E7000 is a pretty good set for just watching normal HD broadcasts. I don't have any complaint with it for this purpose and in some instances I actually preferred how it looked with the exception of its inability to get really dark. This exception, however, is a really major one and affects everything you watch so it is hard to overlook this limitation in the E7000. I know if I was to keep it and return the ST50, I would always wish I hadn't due to this one limitation alone.


If you are use to the Samsung look (which really is quite a bit different) and have no intention of comparing it to the ST50, I am sure you will be very happy with this set. if you do however get a chance to directly compare them in a controlled environment, it is painfully obvious to me which set performs better overall. Does the E7000 do some things better? Yep, I would say its colors feel more natural (Not sure if this would hold up post pro calibration) I also like that fact it can get pretty sharp without drawing attention to signal compression artifacts. But overall, the ST50 just performs better in my opinion.

I can't stress this enough though. If you game a lot I would not recommend the E7000, in fact, I would avoid it if possible. The ST50 just destroys it in every facet when it comes to gaming.

Last year outside of the buzzing I actually preferred the look of the D7000 compared to the ST30 I owned, this year Panasonic has made such great improvements to it's panels there really is no comparison.
BiotypE is offline  
post #34 of 64 Old 06-03-2012, 03:07 PM
Senior Member
 
ll Viper ll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 448
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

You can't measure MLL without a properly set brightness control.

it doesn't need to be 'properly' set to get an idea..take two sets you're comparing, feed both a 0 IRE signal, decrease brightness until it doesn't get any blacker...if he'd of had the two Sammy models sitting next to each other, it'd be pretty obvious

I guess in some cases though, having such a strict (read: annoying) interpretation would be correct.

taken from the cnet review of the e8000

"The PN60E8000 has the best 0 percent measurement of any plasma TV I've tested aside from the Kuro" (seems at odds with everyone else's evaluation vs Panny's ST,GT, VT this year)

later.."a shot of Central Park at night revealed even less of the trees than on the Samsung D7000, whose shadow detail I complained about last year, and compared with the others it looked downright murky. Oskar's jacket at 6:04 was also robbed of some detail."

I don't really trust cnet to get it right (partially because their calibration settings have always been waaay off) and obviously think they could have eeked out more shadow detail by sacrificing a little black level. now, the question remains whether they had the brightness 'properly' set but if calibration on a certain unit means setting the brightness to a point where min black levels are sacrificed for proper shadow detail, so be it
ll Viper ll is offline  
post #35 of 64 Old 06-04-2012, 06:47 PM
Member
 
jmamhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiotypE View Post

Well after much testing and deliberation I decided I am going to send the E7000 back.

It is NOT a very good TV for gaming for several reasons.

1. Input lag in game mode is noticeable compared to the ST50, which seems better in both game and custom mode (without processing)

2. The black level performance of this set is really NOT very good in comparison and this affects the games graphically in a noticeable way. Games look pretty blah on the E7000 in comparison and this isn't a marginal difference I am talking about, there is a HUGE difference in how games look between the two sets. Textures, lighting, motion....literally everything looks and plays better on the ST50.

3. It is a minor annoyance but having to go three or four menus deep to change the E7000 to game mode is a little annoying and having to reverse those steps if you want to switch to TV viewing is equally annoying.

Any game you play that has dark scenes or levels just looks crappy in comparison. Decent without the comparison but you can really appreciate how really deep black levels affect image quality.

The E7000 is a pretty good set for just watching normal HD broadcasts. I don't have any complaint with it for this purpose and in some instances I actually preferred how it looked with the exception of its inability to get really dark. This exception, however, is a really major one and affects everything you watch so it is hard to overlook this limitation in the E7000. I know if I was to keep it and return the ST50, I would always wish I hadn't due to this one limitation alone.


If you are use to the Samsung look (which really is quite a bit different) and have no intention of comparing it to the ST50, I am sure you will be very happy with this set. if you do however get a chance to directly compare them in a controlled environment, it is painfully obvious to me which set performs better overall. Does the E7000 do some things better? Yep, I would say its colors feel more natural (Not sure if this would hold up post pro calibration) I also like that fact it can get pretty sharp without drawing attention to signal compression artifacts. But overall, the ST50 just performs better in my opinion.

I can't stress this enough though. If you game a lot I would not recommend the E7000, in fact, I would avoid it if possible. The ST50 just destroys it in every facet when it comes to gaming.

Last year outside of the buzzing I actually preferred the look of the D7000 compared to the ST30 I owned, this year Panasonic has made such great improvements to it's panels there really is no comparison.

Thanks for the info BiotypE. I can concur with the gaming aspect of the 7000. At first I was ok with it but once I started to get back into my game mode I was very disappointed. I do like the PQ of the 7000 (and 6500) but Game mode and still the input lag is troublesome.
jmamhd is offline  
post #36 of 64 Old 06-06-2012, 04:34 AM
Member
 
majki84's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
What is the input lag in Samsung E6500 plasma? Is it also that bad as it is in e7000 (i don't know what kind of model it is, there's nothing about it on samsung site in Poland). Is it really unplayable? Thinking about getting Panasonic ST50 or E6500 for pc gaming.
majki84 is offline  
post #37 of 64 Old 06-06-2012, 05:25 AM
Senior Member
 
deathrattlehead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Biotype, have you noticed the DSE caused by the new filter on the ST50? I notice vertical streaks during panning shots, especially on brighter scenes, or a cloudy sky shot. You don't really see it when the camera isn't moving, but put on HGTV and look at a white wall as the camera moves, and the lines just pop right out. I absolutely adore my ST50, but the DSE is really killing me right now. I'm thinking of exchanging it, but nervous the next one will have the same issues. What makes it harder for me is that this set doesn't buzz at all. Maybe it does buzz behind the set, but from where I sit, it is dead silent.

Also, to everyone who keeps mentioning the CNET review of the E8000...trust me, in your living room the ST50 destroys the E8000. There is no competition at all. The ST50 looks like it's off with an all black screen, whereas the E8000 looks (to me) worse than my old C8000. Even the black bars on the E8000 have a tendency to go grayish looking depending on content. It really is that big a difference. The deeper blacks of the ST50 have given everything I watch a much deeper feel and almost makes things look 3D. Logos now look like they're floating in front of the tv at night...it's really that good.
deathrattlehead is offline  
post #38 of 64 Old 06-06-2012, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BiotypE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by majki84 View Post

What is the input lag in Samsung E6500 plasma? Is it also that bad as it is in e7000 (i don't know what kind of model it is, there's nothing about it on samsung site in Poland). Is it really unplayable? Thinking about getting Panasonic ST50 or E6500 for pc gaming.

it definitely is not unplayable on the E7000, it is just not as responsive and is probably the worse of all the plasma sets I have owned at least in perception. I don't have measurements for you. What struck me the most outside of the input lag is how much richer games looks on the ST50. I think it all goes back to it being able to get noticeably darker. I can only comment on the 60 inch versions of both sets though.
BiotypE is offline  
post #39 of 64 Old 06-06-2012, 06:13 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BiotypE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathrattlehead View Post

Biotype, have you noticed the DSE caused by the new filter on the ST50? I notice vertical streaks during panning shots, especially on brighter scenes, or a cloudy sky shot. You don't really see it when the camera isn't moving, but put on HGTV and look at a white wall as the camera moves, and the lines just pop right out. I absolutely adore my ST50, but the DSE is really killing me right now. I'm thinking of exchanging it, but nervous the next one will have the same issues. What makes it harder for me is that this set doesn't buzz at all. Maybe it does buzz behind the set, but from where I sit, it is dead silent.
Also, to everyone who keeps mentioning the CNET review of the E8000...trust me, in your living room the ST50 destroys the E8000. There is no competition at all. The ST50 looks like it's off with an all black screen, whereas the E8000 looks (to me) worse than my old C8000. Even the black bars on the E8000 have a tendency to go grayish looking depending on content. It really is that big a difference. The deeper blacks of the ST50 have given everything I watch a much deeper feel and almost makes things look 3D. Logos now look like they're floating in front of the tv at night...it's really that good.

I may have noticed this but it only really stood out when I was just checking out the image retention screen sweep. You can see it a bit within the white parts of the sweeps. I can't say it has been anything I really noticed during normal viewing or anything that drew attention to itself during normal viewing. If your set does not buzz at all, I wouldn't return it. Mine does buzz on brighter scenes but nothing I can hear with any volume at all.

I agree 100% on your comments related to black level. ST50 is on an entirely different level. It's not even questionable how much deeper the black levels are in comparison.. Some of the logo you see before a game starts literally seem to be floating in a pool of jet black tar. Just awesome. Another area that is a good way to demo the black levels it to change your ps3 music visualizer to the planets one when you play music on it. This was one of those tests I did that helped convince me to keep the ST50. Night and day difference in black levels. What bugs me about this is I demoed a D7000 in house last year for about 3 weeks and I don't remember it being nearly as light as the E7000. Like I said above though it might be that I wasn't comparing it to a ST50 but rather an ST30 at the time.
BiotypE is offline  
post #40 of 64 Old 06-06-2012, 06:28 AM
Senior Member
 
deathrattlehead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
That's the thing....I do see the lines during normal viewing. A white surface, or a sky shot where the camera moves immediately draws my eyes to it. It's a tough situation for sure.
deathrattlehead is offline  
post #41 of 64 Old 06-06-2012, 07:30 AM
Senior Member
 
jav1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathrattlehead View Post

That's the thing....I do see the lines during normal viewing. A white surface, or a sky shot where the camera moves immediately draws my eyes to it. It's a tough situation for sure.

For what it is worth, I see the exact same thing on my E8000, including a very very faint (really have to look for it) pinkish verticle stripe dead center. For the most part both the verticle streaks and the pinkish one are not a distraction and generally not noticable even when watching lighter content (such as hockey). For other reasons (black levels), I am switching to a VT50 shortly and will look out for this.
jav1 is offline  
post #42 of 64 Old 06-06-2012, 09:35 AM
Senior Member
 
deathrattlehead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by jav1 View Post

For what it is worth, I see the exact same thing on my E8000, including a very very faint (really have to look for it) pinkish verticle stripe dead center. For the most part both the verticle streaks and the pinkish one are not a distraction and generally not noticable even when watching lighter content (such as hockey). For other reasons (black levels), I am switching to a VT50 shortly and will look out for this.

I had an E8000 as well for a bit, but the buzzing was too much for me, and input lag was worse than the ST50. My lines would definitely be visible during hockey. I just wonder if there are varying degrees of DSE on these 2012 Panasonics. I've seen people talk about it on every model this year except the UT50, which doesn't have a filter. People on the AVforums are freaking about it. There has been the occasional person who says they have no DSE at all, but maybe they're just not seeing it. It's been two weeks, and I'm wondering if I should start playing the exchange game with Amazon.
deathrattlehead is offline  
post #43 of 64 Old 06-06-2012, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BiotypE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathrattlehead View Post

I had an E8000 as well for a bit, but the buzzing was too much for me, and input lag was worse than the ST50. My lines would definitely be visible during hockey. I just wonder if there are varying degrees of DSE on these 2012 Panasonics. I've seen people talk about it on every model this year except the UT50, which doesn't have a filter. People on the AVforums are freaking about it. There has been the occasional person who says they have no DSE at all, but maybe they're just not seeing it. It's been two weeks, and I'm wondering if I should start playing the exchange game with Amazon.

I played the return game more than I would like to admit. I think I have settled down to sticking with the ST50. It isn't a perfect TV but it's as close to one that I can get within my budget and a lot better than last years models.
BiotypE is offline  
post #44 of 64 Old 06-06-2012, 11:58 AM
Senior Member
 
deathrattlehead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiotypE View Post

I played the return game more than I would like to admit. I think I have settled down to sticking with the ST50. It isn't a perfect TV but it's as close to one that I can get within my budget and a lot better than last years models.

Your statement just clicked with me. This is the best set this year overall when you factor in value and performance, so might as well give up trying for perfection. I think I'll try the exchange game to see if I can get one with less pronounced lines. If the next one is the same I'm keeping it.
deathrattlehead is offline  
post #45 of 64 Old 06-06-2012, 02:06 PM
Member
 
samwbourne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Without having the ST50 to compare it to, if you had just sat down and started playing the E7000 in game mode do you think you would have noticed the input lag? Also does anyone know how a 50" ST50 would compare to a 60" E8000 in terms of black level? Thanks guys smile.gif
samwbourne is offline  
post #46 of 64 Old 06-06-2012, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BiotypE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by samwbourne View Post

Without having the ST50 to compare it to, if you had just sat down and started playing the E7000 in game mode do you think you would have noticed the input lag? Also does anyone know how a 50" ST50 would compare to a 60" E8000 in terms of black level? Thanks guys smile.gif

Hmm, I would definitely notice it but it wouldn't be that big of a problem. I play a lot of FPS games on the 360 and this is where I note a pretty decent difference between the two. I guess if I didn't have any other reference it would be fine, I wouldn't know this was the reason I was getting killed more than doing the killing and assume I just sucked at the games I play online.....smile.gif

I had a 55ST50 I exchanged for the larger ST60 and the black levels on the 55 were inky as well. I can't speak for the 50 though. From what I have been reading the 60ST50 gets better MLL readings with some time on the panel. I had no complaints with the MLL on the 55ST50 either. I have been trying to be polite in my comparisons between the two sets but to put it bluntly. I was EXTREMELY disappointed with the black levels on the PN60E7000. Not marginally but EXTREMELY!!! I was also very unhappy with how the limited MLL on the E7000 negatively affects how games look. Take black levels and input lag in gaming out of the equation and Samsung is a VERY nice TV with a VERY nice image.
BiotypE is offline  
post #47 of 64 Old 06-06-2012, 03:52 PM
Member
 
samwbourne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
That's a shame... I've currently got an ST50 and love the image but I notice it flickering when playing Blu Rays at 48hz. TV in Australia is broadcast at 50hz which flickers quite badly as well. I can force TV to display at 60hz by setting motion interpolation to max but it looks awful. Blu Rays are less of a problem as playing them at 60hz and setting motion interpolation to min works OK although obviously isn't ideal.

Are the blacks on the E8000 disappointing even when you just view the set by itself or is it actually good in reference to most other displays, just not the ST50? From what I can see the readings are between about 0.0045 to 0.006 for the PN60E8000 versus about 0.002 to 0.003 for the P50ST50, depending on the reviewer. I don't typically watch films in total darkness and usually have a couple of lamps on so I'm wondering if the difference in black level will be that obvious.

Just trying to figure out which will be the lesser of two evils. frown.gif
samwbourne is offline  
post #48 of 64 Old 06-06-2012, 09:00 PM
Member
 
LastMinuteGoal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by samwbourne View Post

Are the blacks on the E8000 disappointing even when you just view the set by itself or is it actually good in reference to most other displays, just not the ST50? From what I can see the readings are between about 0.0045 to 0.006 for the PN60E8000 versus about 0.002 to 0.003 for the P50ST50, depending on the reviewer. I don't typically watch films in total darkness and usually have a couple of lamps on so I'm wondering if the difference in black level will be that obvious.

I think my viewing environment is similar to yours (dimmed wall lights), still just bright enough to be able to read the back of the Blu-ray cover. The blacks really do look very black to me and I have a hard time imagining it being much darker (but if I had tested the ST50, I might be saying something else), and it's actually quite a bit darker than the bevel of the set (which is not black though). At this level of lighting, there's only a small (but still perceivable) difference between displaying a black screen and when the screen is completely off). But in a darkened room, yes, the blacks do "light up", and if what others have described is true about the ST50, then the ST50 would probably win quite easily.

It really is night and day though the difference between the E8000 and my old C7000, but that suffers from the 50Hz (ie. pretty much all non Blu-ray content here in Australia) and the Cinema Smooth MLL bug, which raises black levels by about 3 times with these sources.

Wasn't aware that the Oz ST50 did telecine dejudder at 48 Hz - that would be a deal breaker for me, as it would make Blu-rays virtually unwatchable (the choices would be between telecine judder, motion flicker or soap opera interpolation, and none are acceptable to me). The Samsung in Cinema Smooth is at 96 Hz, and it looks just like it would at the cinemas, slow pans are perfect, although fast pans will suffer from motion flicker due to the 24p source material (with no frame interpolation option to reduce this). On paper and by reviews, both will probably be similar in motion with 50Hz content though with interpolation turned off, but it seems alright to me (you might have to have a detailed look at a store) - my perception is that motion seems a lot smoother on the E8000 compared to the C7000, but I never found the C7000 to be problematic when watching 50Hz content, so maybe I'm just not that sensitive to it.
LastMinuteGoal is offline  
post #49 of 64 Old 06-06-2012, 10:54 PM
Member
 
samwbourne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastMinuteGoal View Post

I think my viewing environment is similar to yours (dimmed wall lights), still just bright enough to be able to read the back of the Blu-ray cover. The blacks really do look very black to me and I have a hard time imagining it being much darker (but if I had tested the ST50, I might be saying something else), and it's actually quite a bit darker than the bevel of the set (which is not black though). At this level of lighting, there's only a small (but still perceivable) difference between displaying a black screen and when the screen is completely off). But in a darkened room, yes, the blacks do "light up", and if what others have described is true about the ST50, then the ST50 would probably win quite easily.
It really is night and day though the difference between the E8000 and my old C7000, but that suffers from the 50Hz (ie. pretty much all non Blu-ray content here in Australia) and the Cinema Smooth MLL bug, which raises black levels by about 3 times with these sources.
Wasn't aware that the Oz ST50 did telecine dejudder at 48 Hz - that would be a deal breaker for me, as it would make Blu-rays virtually unwatchable (the choices would be between telecine judder, motion flicker or soap opera interpolation, and none are acceptable to me). The Samsung in Cinema Smooth is at 96 Hz, and it looks just like it would at the cinemas, slow pans are perfect, although fast pans will suffer from motion flicker due to the 24p source material (with no frame interpolation option to reduce this). On paper and by reviews, both will probably be similar in motion with 50Hz content though with interpolation turned off, but it seems alright to me (you might have to have a detailed look at a store) - my perception is that motion seems a lot smoother on the E8000 compared to the C7000, but I never found the C7000 to be problematic when watching 50Hz content, so maybe I'm just not that sensitive to it.

Sounds like they are decent even if they aren't the best then. I don't know if the Australian ST50 does 24p in 48hz or 96hz, I think it might actually be 96hz, but the TV just says 24p. Whatever it is, it flickers about the same as 50hz material does. I have done a bit of reading and apparently this is something that only a handful of people notice and has been around since Panasonic brought out their NeoPDP range (don't quote me on this, just what I have read)... I am watching a C8000 at work right now and it looks fine, maybe the tiniest hint of a shimmer in 60hz if I look at it out of the corner of my eye but could be my imagination. 50hz and 96hz look equally as solid as an LCD, no flicker.
samwbourne is offline  
post #50 of 64 Old 06-06-2012, 11:53 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BiotypE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by samwbourne View Post

That's a shame... I've currently got an ST50 and love the image but I notice it flickering when playing Blu Rays at 48hz. TV in Australia is broadcast at 50hz which flickers quite badly as well. I can force TV to display at 60hz by setting motion interpolation to max but it looks awful. Blu Rays are less of a problem as playing them at 60hz and setting motion interpolation to min works OK although obviously isn't ideal.
Are the blacks on the E8000 disappointing even when you just view the set by itself or is it actually good in reference to most other displays, just not the ST50? From what I can see the readings are between about 0.0045 to 0.006 for the PN60E8000 versus about 0.002 to 0.003 for the P50ST50, depending on the reviewer. I don't typically watch films in total darkness and usually have a couple of lamps on so I'm wondering if the difference in black level will be that obvious.
Just trying to figure out which will be the lesser of two evils. frown.gif

That is a tough one. I am now so use to the ST50s incredibly dark black that I don't think I can go back. If you have a dimly lit room the E7000 is fine. The two sets really do have a different look about them. The samsung is a bit cleaner looking image while the Panasonic seems to have a deeper image. My perception or memory of what my older plasmas looked like is now forever skewed. I don't remember my ST30 having issues with MLL. I don't remember the D7000 seeming this "bright' but that might also be due to me now being used to the St50. The E7000 and E8000 are definitely quality sets. Its gaming performance in comparison made the decision in keeping the ST50 rather easy. Were it not for that it would have been a tougher decision for me.

I am just like everyone else on these boards, looking for the perfect TV. Neither of them are perfect, you have to give up something you like on one set to gain something you like in the other.
BiotypE is offline  
post #51 of 64 Old 06-07-2012, 12:31 AM
Member
 
samwbourne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiotypE View Post

That is a tough one. I am now so use to the ST50s incredibly dark black that I don't think I can go back. If you have a dimly lit room the E7000 is fine. The two sets really do have a different look about them. The samsung is a bit cleaner looking image while the Panasonic seems to have a deeper image. My perception or memory of what my older plasmas looked like is now forever skewed. I don't remember my ST30 having issues with MLL. I don't remember the D7000 seeming this "bright' but that might also be due to me now being used to the St50. The E7000 and E8000 are definitely quality sets. Its gaming performance in comparison made the decision in keeping the ST50 rather easy. Were it not for that it would have been a tougher decision for me.
I am just like everyone else on these boards, looking for the perfect TV. Neither of them are perfect, you have to give up something you like on one set to gain something you like in the other.

Fair call mate, I appreciate your feedback. smile.gif I previously had an LG LCD (LW450U) which apparently had an input lag figure of about 50ms in game mode which I found tolerable. Any idea whether I could expect similar or maybe a bit better performance?
samwbourne is offline  
post #52 of 64 Old 06-07-2012, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BiotypE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by samwbourne View Post

Fair call mate, I appreciate your feedback. smile.gif I previously had an LG LCD (LW450U) which apparently had an input lag figure of about 50ms in game mode which I found tolerable. Any idea whether I could expect similar or maybe a bit better performance?

I would say it would be under the 50ms mark. It isn't horrible by any stretch and certainly passable as long as you are in game mode. Any other mode and the input lag is horrific on the E7000.
BiotypE is offline  
post #53 of 64 Old 06-18-2012, 11:48 AM
Member
 
vinhsynd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Birminham, AL
Posts: 56
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
BioType,

I'm looking at the E6500 vs the ST50 and came away with the impression from other reviews that the user adjustable calibration settings were more robust in the Samsung.
I've not been able to see the menu systems in both and was wondering if that was indeed the case.
vinhsynd is offline  
post #54 of 64 Old 06-18-2012, 04:19 PM
Advanced Member
 
David_B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: delete me
Posts: 984
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
You had the Samsung set up for an incorrect HDMI black level. Every symptom you point out says so.

These 2 TVs are not that far apart as you like to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiotypE View Post

I may have noticed this but it only really stood out when I was just checking out the image retention screen sweep. You can see it a bit within the white parts of the sweeps. I can't say it has been anything I really noticed during normal viewing or anything that drew attention to itself during normal viewing. If your set does not buzz at all, I wouldn't return it. Mine does buzz on brighter scenes but nothing I can hear with any volume at all.
I agree 100% on your comments related to black level. ST50 is on an entirely different level. It's not even questionable how much deeper the black levels are in comparison.. Some of the logo you see before a game starts literally seem to be floating in a pool of jet black tar. Just awesome. Another area that is a good way to demo the black levels it to change your ps3 music visualizer to the planets one when you play music on it. This was one of those tests I did that helped convince me to keep the ST50. Night and day difference in black levels. What bugs me about this is I demoed a D7000 in house last year for about 3 weeks and I don't remember it being nearly as light as the E7000. Like I said above though it might be that I wasn't comparing it to a ST50 but rather an ST30 at the time.

buytme
David_B is offline  
post #55 of 64 Old 06-18-2012, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BiotypE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

You had the Samsung set up for an incorrect HDMI black level. Every symptom you point out says so.
These 2 TVs are not that far apart as you like to say.

Unfortunately, I don't agree with your assessment. The HDMI black level option in the E7000 configuration will provide you massively crushed blacks and is still brighter than the ST50 by noticeable margins. This is definitely not my first rodeo with Plasma TVs. Put them side by side and no matter how you attempt to configure the Samsung it just is noticeably lighter than the ST50. I spent hours trying to improve this sets black level performance and it just does not happen. Others in this thread share my same opinion who have directly compared the two so I don't think we all have it wrong. I stand by my original assessment....the ST50 gets noticeably darker than the E7000 in any an every mode I tested regardless of how I configured the HDMI black levels on the E7000.

Now I am by no means an expert at any of this. If there is some magic setting on the E7000 that gets it to the ST50 mll levels I would love to know what it is because other than that, it has a VERY nice picture. It just so happens that that one area is a pretty big one.
BiotypE is offline  
post #56 of 64 Old 06-18-2012, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BiotypE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinhsynd View Post

BioType,
I'm looking at the E6500 vs the ST50 and came away with the impression from other reviews that the user adjustable calibration settings were more robust in the Samsung.
I've not been able to see the menu systems in both and was wondering if that was indeed the case.

The E7000 has much deeper menus for picture calibration than the ST50. From color to just about everything else. How much that gains you in appreciable image quality is an entirely different discussion but it has a much richer
menu for certain.
BiotypE is offline  
post #57 of 64 Old 06-18-2012, 05:18 PM
Senior Member
 
deathrattlehead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

You had the Samsung set up for an incorrect HDMI black level. Every symptom you point out says so.
These 2 TVs are not that far apart as you like to say.

I was considering respectfully disagreeing with your post, but given your know it all tone, I'm going to say you're flat out WRONG. I've owned many televisions and learned years ago how to properly set HDMI Black Levels. My ST50 was not only deeper than the E8000 that I had in my living room at the same time, but it wasn't even close. The ST50 looks inky black, and the E8000 couldn't come close. The ST50 provides a much deeper black while also showing more shadow detail than the E8000. Blacks on the E8000 were hardly as good as the C8000 I owned previously. That isn't to say colors and picture clarity weren't excellent on the E8000, but the blacks are a different story. Have you had both in your living room?
deathrattlehead is offline  
post #58 of 64 Old 06-18-2012, 08:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rahzel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,714
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinhsynd View Post

BioType,
I'm looking at the E6500 vs the ST50 and came away with the impression from other reviews that the user adjustable calibration settings were more robust in the Samsung.
I've not been able to see the menu systems in both and was wondering if that was indeed the case.
The E6500 has a 10pt white balance and Color Management System, while the ST50 has a 2pt white balance and no CMS. So yes the E6500 has more extensive controls; however, the color accuracy of the ST50 is already very good, and the differences in grayscale are very minor compared to the superior black levels and brightness of the ST50... this gives the picture more dimension and dynamic range.

I was heavily debating the ST50 and E6500, but ultimately I decided to stick with my original choice... the ST50. The superior resistance to IR of the E6500 (judging by the cnet article) was the only reason that made me hesitate to buy the ST50. But I'm willing to take my chances because the ST50 is such a good performing set. The E6500 is no slouch and is also a good choice, but the superior PQ (and 3D) is what made me stick with the ST50.
rahzel is offline  
post #59 of 64 Old 06-18-2012, 11:25 PM
Member
 
vinhsynd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Birminham, AL
Posts: 56
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Rahzel,

I seem to be following the mental tract that you were on pre-purchase.
I have some follow up questions for you in regards to my particular usage pattern and your thoughts on how these models fair in relation:

Usage pattern would consist of:
- Gaming on a PS3 > 60%
- HD movies rented from various streaming services ~30%
- Blue-Ray movie rentals/purchases ~10%

I do not plan on watching any form of broadcast television (cable or sat) and I have little to no interest in 3D.
I have Calman and a colorimeter for calibration.

Obviously aside from having access to calibration options that enable good PQ (however many or few are needed), my next concerns are about IR and input lag since the most common usage would be gaming related. Based on what I've been reading it seems that the two models are in competition with opposing features; Samsung with better IR resistance, and Panasonic with lower input lag.

Have you had any experience with these additional concerns and would you still recommend the ST50 over the E6500 for this usage pattern?
I'm a bit stuck in my decision tree; worrying that while the Panasonic may be more responsive - any advantage would be overshadowed by IR issues.
vinhsynd is offline  
post #60 of 64 Old 06-19-2012, 01:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rahzel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,714
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 147
IR seems to vary from panel to panel... some 2012 Panny owners experience no IR issues while some do. You may get some IR while gaming for hours with HUDs, but it should go away. Think to yourself whether that would annoy you enough to pick a set that has slightly inferior PQ and higher input lag as you say.

I only game maybe 20-30% of the time, so I don't have as much concern.
rahzel is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

Tags
Panasonic Viera Tc P60st50 Plasma Tv , Samsung Pn60e7000 60 Inch 1080p 600 Hz 3d Ultra Slim Plasma Hdtv
Gear in this thread

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off