Panasonic ST50 image retention, please help! - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 756 Old 12-18-2012, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by GiantSquid View Post

Isn't there something we can do as far as contacting certain cable channel's about their plasma-damaging logos? Some channels have very small, transparent logos. Other channels have huge, bright white logos that make you so paranoid that you stop watching the content and just worry about the logo burning in. Why is there a need to boldly inform people what channel they are already watching? Out of the channels I watch regularly, CNN and MSNBC are the worst culprits.

A&E is really bad too, watching movies on Sunday and about 1/5 of the screen is A&E Watch Intervention Monday 10/9 C! is it really necessary to CONSTANTLY show that?

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post #452 of 756 Old 12-18-2012, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by GiantSquid View Post

Isn't there something we can do as far as contacting certain cable channel's about their plasma-damaging logos? Some channels have very small, transparent logos. Other channels have huge, bright white logos that make you so paranoid that you stop watching the content and just worry about the logo burning in. Why is there a need to boldly inform people what channel they are already watching? Out of the channels I watch regularly, CNN and MSNBC are the worst culprits.

LOL, yeah wouldn't that be nice? biggrin.gif That would be something TV manufacturers would have to do in order for the channel networks to even mildly consider it. Consumers crying about it will be ignored unfortunately. Also since the logos really affect plasma technology for the most part which is unfortunately in the minority of television sales, the networks will just sit back and roll their eyes at anyone complaining about their annoying logos. I don't even know why these logos suddenly appeared? When I was a kid there were no logos on any TV networks. I guess these networks just want to rudely push their names in our faces.

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Originally Posted by swizzchard View Post

A
Aren't these more limitations of LCD technology where as the issues with plasma are 'broken' tv issues?

Not really, most of the issues talked about on the plasma forums are image retention, line bleed and buzzing. These are not "features" but since they have been present on plasma technology for a long time and not dedicated to just one manufacturer these are considered characteristics of plasma rather than issues. Problem is every time someone new comes here with a new TV they bring up these exact "issues" as if it's unique only to their plasma when it's not.
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post #453 of 756 Old 01-07-2013, 10:13 PM
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Question on running the "white screen" to help rid IR....I've got the slides and there are actually three or four White_Off-White_White/Grey. Should I use the brightess and at what setting in contrast and brightness levels? Right now for the slides I have Vivid. Is that ok or too strong?
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post #454 of 756 Old 01-07-2013, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DR.DTS View Post

Question on running the "white screen" to help rid IR....I've got the slides and there are actually three or four White_Off-White_White/Grey. Should I use the brightess and at what setting in contrast and brightness levels? Right now for the slides I have Vivid. Is that ok or too strong?
custom mode is recommended
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post #455 of 756 Old 01-08-2013, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by DR.DTS View Post

Question on running the "white screen" to help rid IR....I've got the slides and there are actually three or four White_Off-White_White/Grey. Should I use the brightess and at what setting in contrast and brightness levels? Right now for the slides I have Vivid. Is that ok or too strong?

i wouldn't do that. for one it doesn't work, i've tried it. two, you run the risk of overheating the set and damaging it permanently. and three, it uses a lot more power since all pixels are burning. do what you want, just trying to save you the trouble. if the IR isn't removed from 2-3 days of consecutive moving full screen content, it is for all intents and purposes permanent.
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post #456 of 756 Old 01-08-2013, 11:23 AM
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These are the things that im doing to try and combat IR on my 60ST50

- Using break in images till 400hrs (almost there), the last 48hrs ive been brave enough to run in "torch mode" aka contrast 100 to speed up the phosphor aging
- I dont watch much tv, but i do have one streaming broadcast (on my pc) that has a solid white logo and what ive done was take a screenshot of it and invert the colors
- then created a transparency of it and added it break in slides (about 13 in total)

Ill be using these slides right after watching this content till about the 1000hr mark

to make sure that it is an exact overlay i placed a piece of tape to make sure the logo/inverted logo lined up on my tv lol

So break in slides/scrolling bar/break in slides w/ inverted logo until my ST50 is more resilient to IR

Although i have 2 weeks left on my exchange policy and almost at 400hrs...if in the next week IR still stays the same - im going to Samsung
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post #457 of 756 Old 01-09-2013, 08:51 PM
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After years of reading this forum, this thread finally got me to join and reply.

I'm on my second Panny plasma. I purchased my newest one in late Sept (a 55ST50). My older one is 5 years old. I babied that one until 750+ hours before I dared think about gaming. I only had one instance of IR from a HUD. It went away after about a week. After the 1000 hour mark it saw heavy gaming sessions. IR was never an issue. Yes, I have run white screens to check.

Enter my new Panny. I've babied the heck out of it too. I will until I hit the 1000 hour mark. I zoom in to get rid of station logos, black bars, you name it. But on the other hand, I've run DNice's settings since the hundred hour mark. They don't have the contrast all the way down or anything of that nature. At about 750 hours now - and after pushing hard to get there - I had my first gaming session this week. It handled 12+ hour days of nonstop static white HUDS without the slightest IR - Assassin's Creed Huds for those of you wondering.

Now, at the moment, I do have IR from the game but it is my fault. My last night of gaming, during a mission with low lighting I switched off my original custom setting to the factory gaming mode. It is a torch. Other times when I've switched, I switched back as soon as the mission was done. This time I forgot for about 5 hours. This time I did get IR. At first it was pretty noticeable. After going through the same freakout I had 5 years ago, I decided on a course of action.

The scrolling bar did nothing to eradicate it. Regular tv watching was helping but it was slow going. In the end I went with running a Pixar movie on a loop. After about 20 hours of constant play the IR has reduced by about 75%. I expect it will be gone by tomorrow. Will I game again? Oh yes. But I won't leave it in torch mode again. Up until that point it had no problems. Once I hit 1000 hours, I will stop worrying about station logos and the like.

Would I buy the Panny again? Absolutely.

For those that say why baby it? Most people I know baby their high dollar much loved items when they're new. I don't see how a TV is any different. For pity's sake, people buy 600 dollar smart phones that are super slim and then put them in a massive otterbox complete with a thick plastic coating over the glass out of fear of them being scratched or dropped. That's considered being smart. Doing what you can to limit problems - such as with plasmas - is being just as smart to my way of thinking.
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post #458 of 756 Old 01-09-2013, 09:00 PM
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Yup been over 400hrs and i get stubborn IR so easily if its a solid white logo - and this is at 60 contrast. About an hours worth of viewing = 6hrs worth of scrolling bars + slides at 100 contrast + fullscreen noise playback (similar to antennae). Now this IR is only visible on slides, but i watch this particular channel everyday - imagine if i just leave it until it is actually viewable on normal content? I'll be spending DAYS running slides to get rid of it.

This POS is getting exchanged for a Samsung E6500. The blacks are nice, REALLY nice. But too many annoyances.
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post #459 of 756 Old 01-10-2013, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrolds View Post

Yup been over 400hrs and i get stubborn IR so easily if its a solid white logo - and this is at 60 contrast. About an hours worth of viewing = 6hrs worth of scrolling bars + slides at 100 contrast + fullscreen noise playback (similar to antennae). Now this IR is only visible on slides, but i watch this particular channel everyday - imagine if i just leave it until it is actually viewable on normal content? I'll be spending DAYS running slides to get rid of it.

This POS is getting exchanged for a Samsung E6500. The blacks are nice, REALLY nice. But too many annoyances.

the grass is always greener. i don't think you'll fare any better with a different brand imo

(6 hours of scrolling bar? man, you're persistent)
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post #460 of 756 Old 01-10-2013, 11:19 AM
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This is amazing because my 4.5 year old samsung is dying due to a thin black line.. so I wasn't going to touch a samsung again (samsung is having some serious issues with their panels dying.. google samsung plasma black line). My Samsung after 4.5yrs gets IR from everything.. it goes away eventually, but can stay for a long time. So.. I am shocked to hear people jumping ship to Samsung.
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post #461 of 756 Old 01-12-2013, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by vanillacoffee View Post

I don't know if I should be posting in one of the stickies or making a new thread, so I'm sorry if I'm doing this wrong.

I got a new Panasonic P50ST50 about two weeks ago. I ran break-in slides for a few hours, definitely not the full 100, but I wanted to start watching real things. But I watched varied content and used break-in slides sometimes.

Now I am seeing some very persistent image retention. It came from watching baseball on mlb.tv. During commercials, it displays a screen like this. It's only on for two or three minutes at a time, and in between, there is lots of motion. But after watching a few games I could see pretty clear IR from the white "MLB.TV" logo and its border. I had the contrast at about 80 while this happened, which I realize is a bit high, but it made the picture look very nice.

So after noticing the IR, I have been running break-in slides at 100 contrast while asleep and at work. I am up to about 50 hours now (not continuous, but in ~8 hour chunks). The IR has faded somewhat, but it is still noticeable. It is the most clear on a white or green background. I can't really see it anymore on red or blue.

It's been almost a week and I'm starting to worry that this might be permanent burn-in.

What should I do? I'm still within Amazon's 30 day return period.

Do you have a picture of the residual image on a white screen?
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post #462 of 756 Old 01-12-2013, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by HLdan View Post

I was at my local electronics store and they had both the Panny ST50 and the Samsung E6500 and while the Panny did have a very heavy Blu-Ray logo on it from IR, the E6500 had the same logo of IR on it. Don't think for one minute that Samsung's are any more immune to IR against the Panasonics. Since you've decided to return your Panny for the Sammy just have an open mind that you may experience the same IR issues.

BTW, the break-in slides are not to help prevent IR, nor are they for helping to remove existing IR. They are made to break-in the pixels to prepare them for calibration. Don't waste your time using them for any other reason.

Thanks, i get tired of paid and unpaid Sammy trolls.
Considering all of the money they had to pay Panasonic, Pioneer and LG for patent infringements on Plasma panels a few years back (total about $130MUSD) they certainly ARE NOT using more advanced secret voodoo tech.
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post #463 of 756 Old 01-12-2013, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Zarich View Post

This is amazing because my 4.5 year old samsung is dying due to a thin black line.. so I wasn't going to touch a samsung again (samsung is having some serious issues with their panels dying.. google samsung plasma black line). My Samsung after 4.5yrs gets IR from everything.. it goes away eventually, but can stay for a long time. So.. I am shocked to hear people jumping ship to Samsung.

Don't fall for it. Sammy is a hugely corrupt company, right down to it's retail labor rep forces and including online review and forum image enhancing trolls.
I know this FOR A FACT.
The new Sammy's are good, but, considering their long history of class actions for not using enough capacitors on boards, patent infringements, touch of color bezels that leak and gas out so the color creates a yucky aged cyrstalized gunk bezel look, and their generally overblown crush to black plasmas that are harder to calibrate, get the Panasonic.

OR, wait and spend loads of money on a 4K UHD OLED. Panasonic and SONY are co producing those panels btw.

Google search it if i sound full of it.

I'd love to see a 55in OLED 1080p just for the sake of having all i need!
My 50GT25 will do till it's affordable.
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post #464 of 756 Old 01-13-2013, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by vilago View Post

i wouldn't do that. for one it doesn't work, i've tried it. two, you run the risk of overheating the set and damaging it permanently. and three, it uses a lot more power since all pixels are burning. do what you want, just trying to save you the trouble. if the IR isn't removed from 2-3 days of consecutive moving full screen content, it is for all intents and purposes permanent.

not true, i had a stubborn IR that took 6 weeks to get rid of.
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post #465 of 756 Old 01-13-2013, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterUbers View Post

My advice, as the owner of burn-in on a VT30 ..

2011+ (including 2012) Panny's seem to be very prone to IR and what I will am brave enough to call burn-in.

My advice.

RETURN YOUR SET
, reconsider 2012 Panny plasma as your choice of tv, and if you still want to try it, re-purchase your ST50 but wait 200 hours before really viewing any prolonged images -- as the first 200 hours people seem to believe plasmas are most vulnerable to IR.

DO NOT listen to those telling you IR or burn-in is a thing of the past -- they are generalizing on information that may have been correct prior to 2010, but not anymore.

It's YOUR money, YOUR eyes, and YOUR problem with the IR -- not anyone's on this board who refuses to believe you have IR.

Return it, you won't be sorry you did.

You can always make the mistake again of buying the ST50 over again and developing IR.

Fully agreed !
They shouldn´t sell faulty products, IR/burn-in sensitivity like this should not be in any quality specs.

I´ll get my set back at next week because of burn in, they changed new panel to that under warranty.
If it´s same kind I want my money back and choose Samsung.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57449881-221/samsung-plasma-wins-cnets-accidental-burn-in-test/

Someones run slides 400 hours eek.gif
How about user manual, is there mention that you should to do that?
How about shop where you bought your set, did they warn you that this may be very sensitive to IR and picture may be burn-in even just with normal usage by channel logo.
BS, if they can´t do better quality they should stop making these!
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post #466 of 756 Old 01-13-2013, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rupaniii View Post

Don't fall for it. Sammy is a hugely corrupt company, right down to it's retail labor rep forces and including online review and forum image enhancing trolls.
I know this FOR A FACT.
The new Sammy's are good, but, considering their long history of class actions for not using enough capacitors on boards, patent infringements, touch of color bezels that leak and gas out so the color creates a yucky aged cyrstalized gunk bezel look, and their generally overblown crush to black plasmas that are harder to calibrate, get the Panasonic.

OR, wait and spend loads of money on a 4K UHD OLED. Panasonic and SONY are co producing those panels btw.

Google search it if i sound full of it.

I'd love to see a 55in OLED 1080p just for the sake of having all i need!
My 50GT25 will do till it's affordable.

Samsung plasmas are, in my experience, not at all harder to calibrate. What you attempt to pass off as fact is meaningless, as you have no credibility here.
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post #467 of 756 Old 01-13-2013, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Frank Spizzirri View Post

not true, i had a stubborn IR that took 6 weeks to get rid of.

no 2-3 days as in you play a video sequence in a loop and keep the TV on for 36 straight hours. MAYBE after a VERY long time it eventually "equalizes" but why bother? this wasn't IR in the technical sense it was specifically uneven pixel aging which, IMO, doesn't ever go away.
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post #468 of 756 Old 01-14-2013, 10:29 AM
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Well I was trying to convince a friend to go with Plasma over LED/LCD.

After showing him some reviews & comparisons online (Cnet etc.) he agreed to go with plasma (hes purchasing a new TV within the next couple weeks) but after reading through this thread and the ST50 line bleed thread im starting to wonder if maybe he should stick with his original LCD decision.

My 2007 year Kuro has no IR issues even after gaming on it all day and doesn't show any line bleed on the infamous green preview screen, I wonder what happened with the newer models?

Guess ill research the Samsung plasmas before throwing in the towel at least.
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post #469 of 756 Old 01-15-2013, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Mathesar View Post

Well I was trying to convince a friend to go with Plasma over LED/LCD.

After showing him some reviews & comparisons online (Cnet etc.) he agreed to go with plasma (hes purchasing a new TV within the next couple weeks) but after reading through this thread and the ST50 line bleed thread im starting to wonder if maybe he should stick with his original LCD decision.

My 2007 year Kuro has no IR issues even after gaming on it all day and doesn't show any line bleed on the infamous green preview screen, I wonder what happened with the newer models?

Guess ill research the Samsung plasmas before throwing in the towel at least.

yeah the line bleed can be pretty annoying (probably the ONLY issue with the panny plasmas that bothers me), but if calibrated correctly is definitely minimized to some extent. In THX mode on my VT50, it's noticeable but only distracting sometimes. to me, the uneven blotchy picture, crappy backlight bleed and horrible motion blur of an LCD are much more distracting than line bleed. take care of your plasma and it takes care of you. if you make even a slight effort to avoid IR you'll be fine
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post #470 of 756 Old 01-15-2013, 09:09 PM
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i have a sammy 51 e430 plasma and the pandora logo is burned in pretty bad. i am going on vacation for 2 weeks and want to check what it looks like when i come back. this tv is one and a half years old. im praying its not there when i come back, i've only been using pandora since november when i got my onkyo 709 and energy speakers. i was thinking of leaving the the scrolling white screen on for the whole 2 weeks.
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post #471 of 756 Old 01-23-2013, 08:33 AM
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I think it is very important to get to the bottom of the issue of the pixel orbiter functionality or lack thereof in SIZE 2 mode. I have seen a lot of comments in this thread about pixel orbiter possibly not working at all in SIZE 2, or to a lesser degree than in SIZE 1. In my own experience, I think using SIZE 1 with pixel orbiter ON results in less image retention than SIZE 2. If we can somehow get a definitive answer to this very important question, I think a lot of people will be helped by that public service announcement. Thanks.


btw,

I have a 60st50 that has gotten a lot of image retention from channel logos and especially the pure blazing white MSNBC bar at the top of the channel (are the MSNBC channel execs trying to kill plasma sets? smile.gif ). The only thing that really helps to fight it besides what I mentioned above, is varying the content and using zoom to reduce the amount of static images that appear on the screen.
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post #472 of 756 Old 01-23-2013, 09:27 AM
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mike, i have to use the zoom all the time on my set. I thought IR would get better as the set aged but in my opinion its getting worse.

I cant return my set anymore and I love the picture quality but its really becoming a chore having to go through so much trouble keeping IR off my set.

I have pixel orbiter on in SIZE 2 and there really is not any noticeable difference in reducing IR vs when I had it off.
Maybe I will try SIZE 1 and see if that makes a difference, never really considered it before.
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post #473 of 756 Old 01-24-2013, 10:44 AM
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I'm about 99% sure that you can't use pixel orbiter in size 1. Whatever one results in full picture with no "trimming" automatically disables the pixel orbiter regardless.
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post #474 of 756 Old 01-24-2013, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGreyt View Post

After years of reading this forum, this thread finally got me to join and reply.

I'm on my second Panny plasma. I purchased my newest one in late Sept (a 55ST50). My older one is 5 years old. I babied that one until 750+ hours before I dared think about gaming. I only had one instance of IR from a HUD. It went away after about a week. After the 1000 hour mark it saw heavy gaming sessions. IR was never an issue. Yes, I have run white screens to check.

Enter my new Panny. I've babied the heck out of it too. I will until I hit the 1000 hour mark. I zoom in to get rid of station logos, black bars, you name it. But on the other hand, I've run DNice's settings since the hundred hour mark. They don't have the contrast all the way down or anything of that nature. At about 750 hours now - and after pushing hard to get there - I had my first gaming session this week. It handled 12+ hour days of nonstop static white HUDS without the slightest IR - Assassin's Creed Huds for those of you wondering.

Now, at the moment, I do have IR from the game but it is my fault. My last night of gaming, during a mission with low lighting I switched off my original custom setting to the factory gaming mode. It is a torch. Other times when I've switched, I switched back as soon as the mission was done. This time I forgot for about 5 hours. This time I did get IR. At first it was pretty noticeable. After going through the same freakout I had 5 years ago, I decided on a course of action.

The scrolling bar did nothing to eradicate it. Regular tv watching was helping but it was slow going. In the end I went with running a Pixar movie on a loop. After about 20 hours of constant play the IR has reduced by about 75%. I expect it will be gone by tomorrow. Will I game again? Oh yes. But I won't leave it in torch mode again. Up until that point it had no problems. Once I hit 1000 hours, I will stop worrying about station logos and the like.

Would I buy the Panny again? Absolutely.

For those that say why baby it? Most people I know baby their high dollar much loved items when they're new. I don't see how a TV is any different. For pity's sake, people buy 600 dollar smart phones that are super slim and then put them in a massive otterbox complete with a thick plastic coating over the glass out of fear of them being scratched or dropped. That's considered being smart. Doing what you can to limit problems - such as with plasmas - is being just as smart to my way of thinking.

I feel your pain, my friend. I've done pretty much the exact same thing to my 65VT50. Did it ever go away for you?
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post #475 of 756 Old 01-24-2013, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by vilago View Post

I'm about 99% sure that you can't use pixel orbiter in size 1. Whatever one results in full picture with no "trimming" automatically disables the pixel orbiter regardless.

You definitely seem to be able to use the pixel orbiter in "Size 2," which is the no overscan mode. It will end up leaving strips of black pixels around the edges since there's no content there. You can test this with an image that has thin white lines around the edges (make a 1920x1080 image with a pixel or 2 of white around the edges). You'll see those edges appear and disappear as the orbiter works. I did this straight off a laptop because I knew I could control the screen resolution and overscan that way, not sure if there's any overscan in the built-in photo viewer or not.

The real problem with the orbiter is that it's more of a marketing trick than an actual prevention; the orbiter only moves the images on screen by a few pixels, which is far smaller than most of the things that can potentially get stuck (channel logos, game UI elements, these are all much larger than the number of pixels of movement you get). This means that instead of preventing IR it just blurs it, so you end up with a fuzzy channel logo or whatever.

The amount of IR on the ST50 really surprised me. I'm coming from a Pioneer 5080HD (might be unfair to compare anything to a late generation Kuro, but it's been years now) and I've never seen IR like this on it. You can produce IR on the Pioneer but it takes longer and most importantly vanishes within a span of minutes, compared to hours or even days on the Panasonic. It's unfortunate because otherwise the picture quality is excellent, and I consider the black levels to be good even coming from a Pioneer. Nothing's been permanent, but I've had IR already that takes a full day of dynamic content to wipe out. And I put 300 hours on the set before I even let it near station logos and game UI's. I can see this being a problem if you frequent the same channels with the same logos; they may continue to reinforce the IR faster than it gets wiped if you have some favorite channels with logos. It may indeed get better with age as the panel chemistry settles down a bit, but of course that's something you can only test long past any return period.

Oh, and just a note for the person thinking of swapping to a Samsung: The general consensus is that only the 60+ inch Samsungs perform better with IR than the Panasonics. Apparently on Samsung's lineup the sub-60 panels are all around worse in quality. The 51-inch models also apparently have far worse blacks. I can't confirm any of that but I've seen it discussed in a number of places.
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post #476 of 756 Old 01-24-2013, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by vilago View Post

I'm about 99% sure that you can't use pixel orbiter in size 1. Whatever one results in full picture with no "trimming" automatically disables the pixel orbiter regardless.


i think you are talking about SIZE 2, then.
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post #477 of 756 Old 01-24-2013, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by headlesschickens View Post

You definitely seem to be able to use the pixel orbiter in "Size 2," which is the no overscan mode. It will end up leaving strips of black pixels around the edges since there's no content there. You can test this with an image that has thin white lines around the edges (make a 1920x1080 image with a pixel or 2 of white around the edges). You'll see those edges appear and disappear as the orbiter works. I did this straight off a laptop because I knew I could control the screen resolution and overscan that way, not sure if there's any overscan in the built-in photo viewer or not.
.

OK , so you tested it and are positive that it works in SIZE 2 mode, however, has anyone tested if it works to a different degree (better or worse) with either mode?
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post #478 of 756 Old 01-25-2013, 01:00 PM
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Can someone explain how you were able to enable it in the "no overscan" mode? the orbiter function is greyed out and not usable. how do you force it on then?
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post #479 of 756 Old 01-25-2013, 03:31 PM
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Can someone explain how you were able to enable it in the "no overscan" mode? the orbiter function is greyed out and not usable. how do you force it on then?

On my GT50 -- It is not available for size 2 in the THX modes, but can be enabled in either size 1 or size 2 in the Custom mode. For the THX modes, it is only available in size 1.
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post #480 of 756 Old 01-26-2013, 03:30 AM
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They shouldn´t sell faulty products, IR/burn-in sensitivity like this should not be in any quality specs.

I think so too. All this IR and burn-in was problem in the early plasma panels and I never would have expected it to come back after so many years. My previous many years old Panasonic plasma never had any issues like that (which was the reason I purchased another Panasonic) and now my new ST50 has horrible IR and burn-in and it seems to get worse as it age.
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I´ll get my set back at next week because of burn in, they changed new panel to that under warranty.

Did you get your set back yet? It would be interesting to hear if all IR and burn-in problems are gone now? Also are vertical bands and line bleed any better in the new panel? I'm considering if I should go the same route or is it just a waste of time.
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