Panasonic ST50 image retention, please help! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 757 Old 08-07-2012, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by adone36 View Post

You really don't know what you're talking about. "All these people" in a forum post of "Hey I have ir" is meaningless. Forums are hilarious, and if you expect to gather some kind of statistical info, you can't. Search on "Samsung IR" or practically anything and you won't buy anything. I love it when somebody posts, "All these people", so I'll buy the LG (or whatever) instead, and then proceed to name a mfg that has triple Panasonic's defect rate and is notorious for whatever problem they are trying to avoid.
In researching tvs, I checked testing sites, CR, and owner ratings. Let's see, Panasonic rated about the best of ALL tvs, Panasonic lowest repair rate of ALL tvs, Panasonic widely available and hence heavily discounted. It didn't take an large amount of calculations.

Ummm .... OK ... how about CNET.com for confirmation since everyone on this forum has no clue what there talking about! rolleyes.gif

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57449881-221/samsung-plasma-wins-cnets-accidental-burn-in-test/

They might rate the highest in PQ ... but rate the lowest seems like in Image Retention ... which of course is what this thread is all about there bud.
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post #92 of 757 Old 08-07-2012, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falconman515 View Post

Ummm .... OK ... how about CNET.com for confirmation since everyone on this forum has no clue what there talking about! rolleyes.gif
.....


CNET Reviews TVs Panasonic flat-panel TVs Panasonic TC-P55ST50
Quote:
Editors' note, June 12, 2012: The rating on this review has been modified from 8.8 to a 9.2, and its Value subrating changed from 9 to 10, to reflect recent reviews since the time of publication. The product was also awarded CNET's 2012 Editors' Choice in the plasma TV category.

Honestly, have to believe that if CNET felt there was a Fatal Flaw in the 2012 models, they would NOT have awarded the Editor's Choice designation to the ST50.

Am on record - with numerous posts - that our 60ST50 went through a period of (What I Considered To Be) Quick Onset / Medium- to Long-Duration IR, primarily based upon our experience with a number of other Panasonic plasmas.

Am also on record that, at some point beyond 400 hours of usage, this panel "settled in," and its IR tendency has since improved to the point where 1) onset and duration appear "normal," and, accordingly 2) I no longer consider it a Problem Area.

Other owners have reported a similar experience to ours - and while there certainly are reports of "Significant IR," many other owners have reported "NO Visible IR" on their panels.

Still, frankly, would agree with Cnet's Conclusion
Quote:
Conclusion
It's hard to draw wider conclusions about Samsung and Panasonic plasmas' burn-in fighting characteristics from this one inadvertent test.... If you're buying a TV and want to use it as an occasional PC monitor I would still recommend using an LCD, but gaming and occasional Web browsing on a plasma is fine. The fact that these effects faded over time should give you some reassurance that this is not a permanent issue for a modern plasma TV. If it doesn't, by all means get an LCD.

But despite the ever-decreasing concerns about burn-in there's one reason I will always pick a plasma over an LCD: image quality. For the money nothing can beat a plasma for deep black levels, wide viewing angles, uniformity, and motion-blur-free gaming. Until OLED TVs become affordable -- and word is they may also be susceptible to burn-in -- I will be choosing a plasma for use at home.


Perhaps Samsung has found a way to mitigate IR: if so, they are to be commended.
OTOH, perhaps IR will raise its head at some point down the line.
Or, perhaps, there is an Inherent "Brightness vs IR Balance," and in 2012 Pan came down on the side of increased brightness - at the cost of increased tendency for IR. After all, it doesn't seem that long ago that I was reading posts about IR problems on Samsungs, and lack of brightness on Panasonics...

Again, even the WORST IR that we have seen on a Panasonic Plasma, has been Just That: IR. TEMPORARY Image Retention - NOT permanent "Burn In." A common terminology mix-up that even the CNet author falls prey to.

(Have seen several LG panels that appeared to have Actual Burn-in, although these were all panels that were likely to have been "abused" on a consistent basis.)

If the retained image cannot be seen during normal programming, and/or dissipates within a short time period of RUNNING normal programming, then it does not seem like an issue worthy of consternation.

But if IR concerns will cause you to lose sleep at night, then either buy a Samsung (the E6500 has received excellent reviews) - & keep your fingers crossed - or get an LCD. We use our plasmas exclusively for TV and Movie viewing, and are unwilling to give up "the deep black levels, wide viewing angles, [and] uniformity" they provide over an occasional, and currently minor, issue.
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post #93 of 757 Old 08-07-2012, 01:08 PM
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From what I've read, the VT30 was the worst for stubborn IR. The problem for some is that they don't understand it, don't understand what stubborn really is and it scares the heck out of them. Another problem for even more people is that they hunt for it. All of those people are what make up the numbers you're asking for and the only good information that can be extracted from it would be related to hysteria and/or paranoia among new plasma owners who frequent forums.

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post #94 of 757 Old 08-07-2012, 06:02 PM
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LOL .... facts are pointless around here. rolleyes.gif
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post #95 of 757 Old 08-07-2012, 07:56 PM
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Just jumping into this discussion late, but here's my 0.02.

Coming from a Panasonic owner, there's no doubt that Samsung plasmas seem to be less susceptible to IR, but to say there's a problem with Panasonic plasmas is just plain wrong. Many people are just looking at the Cnet article and spouting IR issues when they accidentally left an image there for 8 hours. Their point wasn't to say that Panasonic has IR issues, but that Samsung plasmas are less susceptible to it. A problem to me would be at least 30% of Panasonic owners experience IR issues. What people have to understand is that resistance to IR varies from panel to panel... not ALL Panasonic plasmas are built the same. Another point worth bringing up is that Panasonic is the more popular brand around here and there are considerably more owners which naturally brings in more complaints about issues. Percentage wise, there are relatively few people with issues that I would actually consider to be a problem (ie, IR that's actually visible in regular viewing content and that takes a considerably long time to go away). I've had two 60ST50's in my possession and neither of them have had any noticeable IR. I'm no hardcore gamer, but I've intentionally left bright white logos for over 30min straight and have seen no trace of it on various stimulus / gray patterns.

Too many people around here look too hard for IR, but if it's not noticeable on regular content... who cares? If you're that concerned about it, then I would recommend getting a Samsung. But for me, I'd take superior PQ any day. If the IR was that bad, I would've gladly returned my ST50 for an E6500 (I was actually really considering the E6500 before I got my ST50).

People need to take the Cnet article for what it's worth, but don't spread BS just to backup your own personal purchase decision.
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post #96 of 757 Old 08-07-2012, 08:04 PM
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Very well said Rahzel-bravo!

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post #97 of 757 Old 08-07-2012, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

but I've intentionally left bright white logos for over 30min straight and have seen no trace of it on various stimulus / gray patterns.

LOL ... You Rebel You! tongue.gif Way to stretch that TV to it's limits! biggrin.gif

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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

People need to take the Cnet article for what it's worth, but don't spread BS just to backup your own personal purchase decision.

Ummm not BS .........

Tons of people have reported and proved it with pictures and it's BS ... but you say it's not true so I guess it's not.

Some comments here baffle me to death sometimes.

I'm over it. rolleyes.gif
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post #98 of 757 Old 08-07-2012, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by falconman515 View Post

LOL ... You Rebel You! tongue.gif Way to stretch that TV to it's limits! biggrin.gif
What are you 14? Learn to have a respectful conversation.

The fact that you ignore several of owners on these boards that have no IR after gaming for several hours just goes to show that you have an agenda here
Quote:
Ummm not BS .........
Tons of people have reported and proved it with pictures and it's BS ... but you say it's not true so I guess it's not.
Some comments here baffle me to death sometimes.
I'm over it. rolleyes.gif
Where are these 'tons' of people? You mean the 10-20 people on these boards? What about the hundreds or thousands of Panasonic owners here on these boards, and the MILLIONS around the world? Surely if Panasonic plasmas did have an issue, it would be published on at least one major HT site. Instead, these HT sites are praising them and not ONE mention of IR issues. Yes they mention IR being visible, but not being an issue. I'm seeing people telling others to avoid Panasonic for their "IR nightmares". Like I said... BS.
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post #99 of 757 Old 08-07-2012, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falconman515 View Post

LOL ... You Rebel You! tongue.gif Way to stretch that TV to it's limits! biggrin.gif
Ummm not BS .........
Tons of people have reported and proved it with pictures and it's BS ... but you say it's not true so I guess it's not.
Some comments here baffle me to death sometimes.
I'm over it. rolleyes.gif

I take C-Nets evaluation of products about the same as any other just look at their recommended systems it reminds me of Consumer Reports in a way.
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post #100 of 757 Old 08-07-2012, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by oztech View Post

I take C-Nets evaluation of products about the same as any other just look at their recommended systems it reminds me of Consumer Reports in a way.
+1

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post #101 of 757 Old 08-07-2012, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by oztech View Post

I take C-Nets evaluation of products about the same as any other just look at their recommended systems it reminds me of Consumer Reports in a way.

I'm not talking about just CNET bud ... there are MANY other reports from users all over the net with major IR issues and this line-up of Pannys ... but I'll try and find some sand to bury my head in when I find the time as well. cool.gif
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post #102 of 757 Old 08-07-2012, 11:35 PM
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Out of 194 reviews, on Amazon, there is 1 reliable report of IR (one other from someone who seems to be a troll). Amazon has sold "tons" of these sets (ST, GT, VT) and yet there is only one real claim of IR.

Sorry, but your perspective and logic are flawed Falconman. Also, am I correct in understanding that you don't even own one?

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post #103 of 757 Old 08-08-2012, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by falconman515 View Post

I'm not talking about just CNET bud ... there are MANY other reports from users all over the net with major IR issues and this line-up of Pannys ... but I'll try and find some sand to bury my head in when I find the time as well. cool.gif

There are to many AV mags giving it thumbs up for picture quality,size and price may want to Google them if this was a serious issue then you would have read something like we would have given it five stars but ........
The ones that had serious issues probably had it in torch mode which is bad for any display not to mention your eyes in dark rooms.
Its acceptable to find faults with any product thats what we do in these forums but sometimes bias gets in the way of fact finding missions.
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post #104 of 757 Old 08-08-2012, 10:03 AM
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Here is what I'd like to know, now that i'm thinking a little bit more about that CNET panny/sam IR article:

Most people say the pixel orbiter function is useless on the panny. HOWEVER is the samsung pixel orbiter enabled by default in all settings? I know that you have to put the VT/GT/ST models on "size 2" in the aspect menu OR have it in zoom mode for the pixel orbiter to be enabled.
In that article do we know whether or not the pixel orbiter was enabled on both, one or NONE of the models?
I think it would be fair to know, since my reasoning is that if the pixel orbiter was enabled or undefeatable by default on the samsung and that is the reason it won the burn-in contest, that the same result would have occured on the panny had the pixel orbiter been enabled...

I'm actually concerned as just the last couple of nights i've been running my VT 24/7 trying to remove some IR/Burn that I had accidentally not noticed from playing ME3 out of the box. It would be nice to know if it could have been prevented had I known the pixel orbiter was disabled in THX mode by default.
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post #105 of 757 Old 08-08-2012, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vilago View Post

Here is what I'd like to know, now that i'm thinking a little bit more about that CNET panny/sam IR article:
Most people say the pixel orbiter function is useless on the panny. HOWEVER is the samsung pixel orbiter enabled by default in all settings? I know that you have to put the VT/GT/ST models on "size 2" in the aspect menu OR have it in zoom mode for the pixel orbiter to be enabled.
In that article do we know whether or not the pixel orbiter was enabled on both, one or NONE of the models?
I think it would be fair to know, since my reasoning is that if the pixel orbiter was enabled or undefeatable by default on the samsung and that is the reason it won the burn-in contest, that the same result would have occured on the panny had the pixel orbiter been enabled...
I'm actually concerned as just the last couple of nights i've been running my VT 24/7 trying to remove some IR/Burn that I had accidentally not noticed from playing ME3 out of the box. It would be nice to know if it could have been prevented had I known the pixel orbiter was disabled in THX mode by default.

My personal opinion is that the pixel orbitor does mitigate IR to a certain extent and my pro calibrator thinks so too.

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post #106 of 757 Old 08-08-2012, 11:58 AM
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I'm going to invoke a combination of murphy's law and occam's razor: what seems more likely, that samsung have secretly developed the answer to burn-in with a new, patented magic plasma pixel immune to the effects of static images that no other manufacturer is aware of, or was it simply the case of the pixel orbiter being enabled on the samsung by default and not on the panasonic? Let's be honest, the CNET test wasn't realistic. Most users are going to get IR from static logos etc. not from a full screen static image. Further reinforcing my hypothesis is that the pixel orbiter is designed to handle exactly the type of IR the author experienced.
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post #107 of 757 Old 08-08-2012, 12:50 PM
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I've had my st50 since early June. I ran the braek in slides for about 75 hours and then watched TV normally. I watch all kinds of stuff from espn to the olympics to Basketball, Baseball, movies, news, etc... . I've had logo's fixed on the screen for 2 straight hours. I have never noticed any IR. I don't look for it.

I have a GT15 from 2009. When I first got it, I was worried about IR. I could see it if I looked really close at an angle, but never noticed it when watching normally.

I'm sure some of the panny's have IR. Not sure if it's due to particular units or watching with the brightness cranked up. I've never had a problem with it.
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post #108 of 757 Old 08-08-2012, 04:13 PM
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Reading all this, I was reminded of an episode of CarTalk that I listened to on the way home way back when. A young man called in asking about his new Mustang (I think. Could have been a WRX). He said that when he first got the car, he could drive 150mph+. After a while, only 130mph. Later, only 110mph. Now barely 90mph. "So what is wrong?"

The guys yelled unanimously, "YOU BURNED UP THE MOTOR!"

I think about this when folks post, "I was running in Vivid, watching logos and gaming with HUDs for days. Now I have this danged IR. So what is wrong?"
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post #109 of 757 Old 08-08-2012, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by weedeater View Post

Reading all this, I was reminded of an episode of CarTalk that I listened to on the way home way back when. A young man called in asking about his new Mustang (I think. Could have been a WRX). He said that when he first got the car, he could drive 150mph+. After a while, only 130mph. Later, only 110mph. Now barely 90mph. "So what is wrong?"
The guys yelled unanimously, "YOU BURNED UP THE MOTOR!"
I think about this when folks post, "I was running in Vivid, watching logos and gaming with HUDs for days. Now I have this danged IR. So what is wrong?"

You hit the nail on the head bright cranked ( because it looks good on games) equates to burn in on any CRT or Plasma.
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post #110 of 757 Old 08-08-2012, 05:06 PM
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LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL !!!

I wish I could find those clouds to put my head in. tongue.gif
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post #111 of 757 Old 08-08-2012, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by oztech View Post

There are to many AV mags giving it thumbs up for picture quality,size and price may want to Google them if this was a serious issue then you would have read something like we would have given it five stars but ........
The ones that had serious issues probably had it in torch mode which is bad for any display not to mention your eyes in dark rooms.
Its acceptable to find faults with any product thats what we do in these forums but sometimes bias gets in the way of fact finding missions.
You got anything to back up that claim? Sources? Here's one that thinks not...http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/15698/1/Watching-TV-in-a-Dark-Room.html
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post #112 of 757 Old 08-08-2012, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post

You got anything to back up that claim? Sources? Here's one that thinks not...http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/15698/1/Watching-TV-in-a-Dark-Room.html

You're link says that it causes eyestrain and headaches, as well as, result in a sort of visual disorientation if watching a very bright image . Furthermore it says:
Quote:
How to Lessen Eyestrain

Lower the Brightness

The first way to avoid eyestrain is to lower the brightness on the television. This will mean that the lighting doesn't affect the lighting in the room to the same effect and you are able to enjoy watching the screen at a constant level of lighting. At the same time the lower lighting will mean that your photoreceptors are less excited by sudden flashes and you won't have glare in front of your eyes. Intuitively most of us would assume that brighter lighting would be better for seeing in the dark and thus cause less eyestrain, but in fact the opposite is true!

Lower the Contrast


This will be unlikely to make a major difference to how you view TV in the dark, but it might make some difference. By lowering the contrast you bring the colors and brightnesses closer together and this way you will less have to worry about your eyes having to re-adjust.

Don't Sit Too Close to the Screen

Our eyes when relaxed tend to look into 'middle distance'. Focusing on something too close to us then can cause our eyes to have to work and over a long period of time it will cause them to start to fatigue. Likewise though having the television too far away can be a problem as your eyes need to strain to focus on distance too and particularly if there's writing on the screen (though most people's rooms are not big enough for this to be a problem). In other words to find the optimum viewing distance for your television, try letting your eyes just relax and see where they naturally focus. Now just put your television wherever that point is and you'll not have to work to view it.

Avoid Glare

You're dealing with one major light source and the problem is that that light source is flickering and glowing. Your eyes can just about cope with this but if you let glare get in the way as well then this gives you more to focus on and makes it more difficult. At the same time it can get in the way of things you are trying to focus on. So just make sure that if you're going for the dark room effect that you avoid having any sources of light opposite the screen such as open windows. Draw some heavy curtains for instance.

Think Low Lighting

Better than all this though is just to have a low level of lighting rather than having completely no lighting at all. To achieve this set up some smaller little lamps around the room that create a homely glow rather than a bright glare and put these on instead of the big light. It will help to create a more constant level of lighting but at the same time it will still create a slightly cinema-like feel.

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post #113 of 757 Old 08-10-2012, 02:06 PM
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I don't understand the relevance of the last couple of posts...

well anyway, played an online game early on in the life of my VT, thinking that in between matches i'd be fine if i used the scrollling bar. nope. even after nearly 36 hours of continuous running of a moving full screen image, on a solid colored background (green/gray etc) i can see where the bright white numbers have aged those pixels. i thought that since the tv was still somewhat new, i still had a chance to even out the pixels. i'm pretty sure at this point it's permanent. i don't like that there's this new rumour going around that plasma is safe from permanent burn-in. no way.

maybe after another 1000 hours of continuous use it will fully even out but even then, i just don't know.

i am pretty tech saavy and thought i was taking the proper precautions, using zoom feature, scrolling bar and a lower contrast/brightness mode that it would be ok. truth is, i'm starting to understand why some people run their sets for a few days non stop to age it. maybe i can use DSE or banding as a reason to return it and get new 30 day replacement. sort of dishonest i know, but since panasonic didn't make it perfectly clear in the user manual exactly how to use the tv when new, i put the blame on lack of communication.
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post #114 of 757 Old 08-10-2012, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by vilago View Post

I don't understand the relevance of the last couple of posts...
well anyway, played an online game early on in the life of my VT,

more detail here please.
did you do this in the first 150 hours of the sets life and how long were your online game sessions per day?
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post #115 of 757 Old 08-10-2012, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vilago View Post

I don't understand the relevance of the last couple of posts...
well anyway, played an online game early on in the life of my VT, thinking that in between matches i'd be fine if i used the scrollling bar. nope. even after nearly 36 hours of continuous running of a moving full screen image, on a solid colored background (green/gray etc) i can see where the bright white numbers have aged those pixels. i thought that since the tv was still somewhat new, i still had a chance to even out the pixels. i'm pretty sure at this point it's permanent. i don't like that there's this new rumour going around that plasma is safe from permanent burn-in. no way.
maybe after another 1000 hours of continuous use it will fully even out but even then, i just don't know.
i am pretty tech saavy and thought i was taking the proper precautions, using zoom feature, scrolling bar and a lower contrast/brightness mode that it would be ok. truth is, i'm starting to understand why some people run their sets for a few days non stop to age it. maybe i can use DSE or banding as a reason to return it and get new 30 day replacement. sort of dishonest i know, but since panasonic didn't make it perfectly clear in the user manual exactly how to use the tv when new, i put the blame on lack of communication.

What were your contrast /brightness settings?
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post #116 of 757 Old 08-11-2012, 09:52 AM
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i just used the standard THX mode because i read that it was "conservative" but IMO that is wrong. i should have gamed on the dim "standard" mode. I probably gamed something like 2 or 3 hours per day. matches last approx 20 minutes. always followed with full screen content etc. and scrolling bar. i realized later on (when it was probably too late) that i should have at the very minimum used the "size 2" mode in the aspect menu to keep the pixel orbiter enabled. also, it would have probably helped to use the zoom mode every other match to keep the static elements moving around. of course, the very best idea would have been to just not game at all but that's neither here nor there. if somehow the pixels even out i'll report back.

also, gaming was from day 1. probably had something like 100-150hrs on set when i noticed the IR/burn/whatever. Probably something like 200-250 hours on the set currently.
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post #117 of 757 Old 08-11-2012, 01:54 PM
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Why in the world would anyone wanna deal with this crap ... what a friggin mess to go through just to play games and watch programs with static logos.

So basically the Panny wins hands down in overall PQ when you watch 1080p blurays 24/7! But if you watch regular HD, anything with logos, want to play a game more than 30 minutes and just feel like you should be able to watch tv without worrying about all this crazy crap then the Panasonic from the looks the looks of it is the worst tv to buy.

Funny how a tv can the 1 hands down best picture but panasonic fail in every other category! This TV would have been the most amazing deal and hands down best tv in years had they just figured out a way to get past the stupid IR issue.

Crazy how anyone would want to buy this tv now knowing this ... I mean unless it's just your "movie" TV in the family room or something and all you do is watch blurays.

But for everyday TV entertainment this is TV is NO GO for most all normal people who just want to use the TV without any worry.

Really sucks cause this TV was my last chance at finding something good that was 65" or larger (minus the sony and elite which I can't afford ... well won't spend 5K plus on anyway).
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post #118 of 757 Old 08-11-2012, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falconman515 View Post

Why in the world would anyone wanna deal with this crap ... what a friggin mess to go through just to play games and watch programs with static logos.
So basically the Panny wins hands down in overall PQ when you watch 1080p blurays 24/7! But if you watch regular HD, anything with logos, want to play a game more than 30 minutes and just feel like you should be able to watch tv without worrying about all this crazy crap then the Panasonic from the looks the looks of it is the worst tv to buy.
Funny how a tv can the 1 hands down best picture but panasonic fail in every other category! This TV would have been the most amazing deal and hands down best tv in years had they just figured out a way to get past the stupid IR issue.
Crazy how anyone would want to buy this tv now knowing this ... I mean unless it's just your "movie" TV in the family room or something and all you do is watch blurays.
But for everyday TV entertainment this is TV is NO GO for most all normal people who just want to use the TV without any worry.
Really sucks cause this TV was my last chance at finding something good that was 65" or larger (minus the sony and elite which I can't afford ... well won't spend 5K plus on anyway).

You assumed that because a few posted this that all of us owners are experiencing this if that were really the case then the forum would be flooded with bad experience one right after another .
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post #119 of 757 Old 08-11-2012, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falconman515 View Post

Really sucks cause this TV was my last chance at finding something good that was 65" or larger (minus the sony and elite which I can't afford ... well won't spend 5K plus on anyway).

Amazing, you and waveboy must have ADD.
How did you manage to skip the 64" Samsung's?
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post #120 of 757 Old 08-11-2012, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by oztech View Post

You assumed that because a few posted this that all of us owners are experiencing this if that were really the case then the forum would be flooded with bad experience one right after another .
Who said it isn't? Over 3100 threads with 'Image Retention'. How many more would there be if I searched for 'IR' instead? Hard to say because 'IR' also brings up lots of remote control threads...
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