Panasonic ST50 image retention, please help! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 758 Old 06-10-2012, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't know if I should be posting in one of the stickies or making a new thread, so I'm sorry if I'm doing this wrong.

I got a new Panasonic P50ST50 about two weeks ago. I ran break-in slides for a few hours, definitely not the full 100, but I wanted to start watching real things. But I watched varied content and used break-in slides sometimes.

Now I am seeing some very persistent image retention. It came from watching baseball on mlb.tv. During commercials, it displays a screen like this. It's only on for two or three minutes at a time, and in between, there is lots of motion. But after watching a few games I could see pretty clear IR from the white "MLB.TV" logo and its border. I had the contrast at about 80 while this happened, which I realize is a bit high, but it made the picture look very nice.

So after noticing the IR, I have been running break-in slides at 100 contrast while asleep and at work. I am up to about 50 hours now (not continuous, but in ~8 hour chunks). The IR has faded somewhat, but it is still noticeable. It is the most clear on a white or green background. I can't really see it anymore on red or blue.

It's been almost a week and I'm starting to worry that this might be permanent burn-in.

What should I do? I'm still within Amazon's 30 day return period.
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post #2 of 758 Old 06-10-2012, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanillacoffee View Post

.... But after watching a few games I could see pretty clear IR from the white "MLB.TV" logo and its border. .... I am up to about 50 hours now (not continuous, but in ~8 hour chunks). The IR has faded somewhat, but it is still noticeable. It is the most clear on a white or green background. I can't really see it anymore on red or blue.
....What should I do? I'm still within Amazon's 30 day return period.


Stop watching MLB - ?? eek.gif

Or at least move to a different channel during Commercial Breaks. smile.gif

Solid Color screens will show off any imperfections in the panel, including IR, as you have discovered.

A more important question would be "Can you see the IR during Normal Program Content?"

For a while, it seemed as if Long-Term IR and/or "Burn In" were ghosts of the past - but this is apparently not the case, given all of the complaints that have popped up concerning the past couple of model years.

Our own experience suggests that both 2011 and 2012 Panasonic plasma panels are (at least...) prone to "Quick Onset - Medium Duration IR," which we have already noted a couple of times on our 60" ST50 (about 5 weeks old now), and numerous times on various 2011 panels (S and ST models).

Managed to get the (also White) "Encore HD" Logo encamped on the lower right corner of our ST50, simply by watching a single 2 hour movie. It took ROUGHLY 8 hours of normal programming for that to disappear - although (to be fair) it had dissipated enough after only several hours that MOST people probably would not have noticed - without, of course, calling up a Solid Color Slide.

Our older Pan plasma panels (2.5+ and 4.5+ years old) ARE Relatively Immune to IR: it takes a LONGER amount of On Screen time for Medium Duration IR to set in - for example, we've subscribed to Encore HD for about 4 years, and this past week is the FIRST TIME I have noticed IR from their logo, beyond - quite literally - a few minutes of normal programming on another channel.

At the same time, we - that is Plasma Owners - seem to have a few things "working against" us:
1) It SEEMS that more channels are running Constant On-Screen Logos than in the past. Some of these are Soft Logos (Translucent), and those don't appear to cause many problems - but "hard" logos are another matter.

2) We are using our panels for more purposes than Simply Watching TV: gaming, internet apps, streaming movie services, use as a Large Scale Computer Monitor, & photo slide shows all tend to have more non-moving content / odd aspect ratios than Regular TV or (of course) DVDs do.

3) The manufacturers themselves seem to be aware of the POTENTIAL for Long-term IR / Burn it. From the Panasonic ST30 owners manual:
Quote:
This Limited Warranty ONLY COVERS failures due to defects in materials or workmanship, and DOES NOT COVER normal wear and tear or cosmetic damage, nor does it cover markings or retained images on the glass panel resulting from viewing fixed images (including, among other things, non-expanded standard 4:3 pictures on wide screen TV’s, or onscreen data in a stationary and fixed location). The Limited Warranty ALSO DOES NOT COVER damages which...... [Etc, Etc, Etc....]

Have seen similar statements in Samsung manuals, and would have to guess that they exist in LG's as well - and hopefully so, as OUR Experience is that LG sets - at least of a year old or more - appear to be more prone to long-term IR / Burn-in than other panels.

Thus far, all of our Image Retention problems have been either short- or medium-duration (we had a "MENU" IR that lasted for a couple of weeks on our 50" set, but that was with limited viewing over that time period) - hopefully yours will prove likewise!
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post #3 of 758 Old 06-10-2012, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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wow, thanks a lot for the thoughtful response!

I definitely understand that solid-color screens exaggerate the IR the most, but I can also sometimes see it during normal viewing. It's visible on top of green or greenish gray colors, and sometimes on light brown or cream colors (this includes some skin tones). It is subtle enough that you might not notice unless you're looking for it, but it's also right in the middle of the screen and if you're a little compulsive like me, it's hard not to notice.

I don't want to stop watching baseball. In fact, one of the reasons I got a plasma screen is for the superior motion resolution. It never crossed my mind that the commercial logo would cause IR. I have been changing the channel during commercials, but it doesn't seem like it's really helping.

I do love the PQ in other respects though. It really is incredible and definitely much better than the LCDs I've seen. I have gotten IR from other things but it has always gone away in a matter of minutes or maybe a couple hours. That doesn't bother me. I have not noticed any problem with 2.35:1 movies.

When you say "short to medium duration," what exactly does that mean? Have you ever had IR that lasted for a week or more but eventually went away?

If you (or anyone) could answer these questions, it would be immensely helpful:
  1. Is there some way to tell if this is permanent burn-in or not? Given that it has persisted for nearly a week now, is it reasonable to expect that it will eventually disappear?
  2. Could I have gotten a defective unit, i.e. is this abnormal behavior? I could exchange it for a replacement from Amazon, although that would be a huge hassle.
  3. Can I do anything else to help make it go away? Here's what I've done so far: monochromatic slides, random noise, the inverse image of the IR, and the TV's built-in scrolling bar. I do all this with contrast set to 100, brightness 50, and color 100. I also have been watching regular programming (full screen TV shows and the like) with contrast around 70 - 75.

One more thing I noticed. If I display a full screen black image and start turning up the brightness, when it gets around 60 I start seeing a shocking amount of noise on the screen. It is not static noise either, it's more like each pixel is constantly switching on and off randomly. The noise appears very suddenly, for example it will be fine at 59, but turn it up one notch to 60 and it appears. But it is not always at exactly 60, sometimes it starts at 58 or 62 or something. Is this normal, or possibly indicative of a lemon?

Thank you very much!
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post #4 of 758 Old 06-10-2012, 03:38 PM
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My advice, as the owner of burn-in on a VT30 ..

2011+ (including 2012) Panny's seem to be very prone to IR and what I will am brave enough to call burn-in.

My advice.

RETURN YOUR SET, reconsider 2012 Panny plasma as your choice of tv, and if you still want to try it, re-purchase your ST50 but wait 200 hours before really viewing any prolonged images -- as the first 200 hours people seem to believe plasmas are most vulnerable to IR.

DO NOT listen to those telling you IR or burn-in is a thing of the past -- they are generalizing on information that may have been correct prior to 2010, but not anymore.

It's YOUR money, YOUR eyes, and YOUR problem with the IR -- not anyone's on this board who refuses to believe you have IR.

Return it, you won't be sorry you did.

You can always make the mistake again of buying the ST50 over again and developing IR.
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post #5 of 758 Old 06-10-2012, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterUbers View Post

My advice, as the owner of burn-in on a VT30 ..
2011+ (including 2012) Panny's seem to be very prone to IR and what I will am brave enough to call burn-in.
My advice.
RETURN YOUR SET, reconsider 2012 Panny plasma as your choice of tv, and if you still want to try it, re-purchase your ST50 but wait 200 hours before really viewing any prolonged images -- as the first 200 hours people seem to believe plasmas are most vulnerable to IR.
DO NOT listen to those telling you IR or burn-in is a thing of the past -- they are generalizing on information that may have been correct prior to 2010, but not anymore.
It's YOUR money, YOUR eyes, and YOUR problem with the IR -- not anyone's on this board who refuses to believe you have IR.
Return it, you won't be sorry you did.
You can always make the mistake again of buying the ST50 over again and developing IR.

Your right, both the VT50 and GT50 in the Magnolia near by had ESPN and NBA logo easily seen in them. Where at the E7000/8000 had none and both had been displaying the same content for similar time peroids. The logos on the VT/GT looks to be permanent, they could easily been seen in just about any content.

-SiGGy
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post #6 of 758 Old 06-10-2012, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I think that you are both right, although it's not the answer I wanted! It will be annoying to return this set and get another, but I'm sure it will be worth it in the long run. I'll probably get the E6500, which is $50 more but let's be honest, at this level that is chump change (and easily worth not having IR).

I am very grateful for your advice.
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post #7 of 758 Old 06-10-2012, 07:25 PM
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This and dse is the reason why i will not buy panny plasma. Only advantage they have is slightly better blacks, thats it.
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post #8 of 758 Old 06-10-2012, 07:34 PM
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I have a 7 year old Panny plasma. In the past few weeks I have had both 2012 model LG and Samsung plasmas in my room for a few days. When stations would go to commercial with the LG I could see temporary IR of the station logo for a minute or two. The Samsung had virtually none. I ran it a lot brighter as well. There was definitely a difference between the two. You will probably be happier with the Samsung panel.

I returned them both and have 104" of Epson 1080p glory for half the price with no concern of IR.smile.gif
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post #9 of 758 Old 06-10-2012, 08:17 PM
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I just baffles me with all our ultra-modern technology, that this just has not been eliminated. Good to know because I was fixin to pull the trigger on a vt50 for the rec. room.
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post #10 of 758 Old 06-10-2012, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanillacoffee View Post

I think that you are both right, although it's not the answer I wanted! It will be annoying to return this set and get another, but I'm sure it will be worth it in the long run. I'll probably get the E6500, which is $50 more but let's be honest, at this level that is chump change (and easily worth not having IR).
I am very grateful for your advice.

I was at my local electronics store and they had both the Panny ST50 and the Samsung E6500 and while the Panny did have a very heavy Blu-Ray logo on it from IR, the E6500 had the same logo of IR on it. Don't think for one minute that Samsung's are any more immune to IR against the Panasonics. Since you've decided to return your Panny for the Sammy just have an open mind that you may experience the same IR issues.

BTW, the break-in slides are not to help prevent IR, nor are they for helping to remove existing IR. They are made to break-in the pixels to prepare them for calibration. Don't waste your time using them for any other reason.
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post #11 of 758 Old 06-11-2012, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjsiv View Post

I have a 7 year old Panny plasma. In the past few weeks I have had both 2012 model LG and Samsung plasmas in my room for a few days. When stations would go to commercial with the LG I could see temporary IR of the station logo for a minute or two. The Samsung had virtually none. I ran it a lot brighter as well. There was definitely a difference between the two. You will probably be happier with the Samsung panel.
I returned them both and have 104" of Epson 1080p glory for half the price with no concern of IR.smile.gif
Which projector did you get? I can't decide what kind of tv I want. LCD's have their horrible blacks, plasmas with the IR, DLP's with the dust and the bulbs. I'd like a projector but I think the bulbs for them don't last very long and they are expensive.
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post #12 of 758 Old 06-11-2012, 05:50 AM
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That logo would have to be up for a couple of days for permanent burn-in. It's just IR, maybe a nasty case of it, but it'll go away. If you can really only see it on slides, then don't worry. It'll fade, trust me. Turn the contrast down and during those commercial breaks change channels maybe.
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post #13 of 758 Old 06-11-2012, 06:37 AM
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Not to hijack this thread, but I went with the Epson 8350. I got a good price since Best Buy "lost" my E7000. Projectors aren't for everyone, but I have always had one for the past 8 years. I tried to go with 60 and 64 inch plasmas but cutting your screen size almost in half is hard to do. I have a decent sized light controlled room so they work out great for me. 8 years ago when I started you needed a pitch black room. Nowadays ambient light is not much of an issue. Epson's warranty is top notch so I have been happy with them. Some will disagree with me. For my needs, projectors fit the bill better than any tv I have had. The 50" plasma is for the kids to watch Disney in the living room. The 104" screen is for my room downstairs next to the kegerator. smile.gif

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post #14 of 758 Old 06-11-2012, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuiGonJosh View Post

That logo would have to be up for a couple of days for permanent burn-in. It's just IR, maybe a nasty case of it, but it'll go away. If you can really only see it on slides, then don't worry. It'll fade, trust me. Turn the contrast down and during those commercial breaks change channels maybe.

Yes I can confirm that on my new Panasonic 50ST50 I got early last week.
The first couple days I saw some light IR with words like "Menu" visible on some of the gray screen slides while running the set of slides.
But after a few hours of running the slides the IR went away completely and after a few days of running the slides plus some regular content a few hours/day, I haven't seen any more IR.
So I suspect the IR potential is higher during the first 100 or so hours, so best to run the slides during that period to get past it quickly.

It was similar on my 4 year old Panasonic plasma and I rarely saw IR after the initial period.
If I saw a ghostly logo, I would just run the slideshow for awhile with that plasma and any IR would go away. Worked better than the white bar wipe feature that only runs for a few minutes.
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post #15 of 758 Old 06-11-2012, 04:40 PM
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CNET accidentally did some test on a Samsung (6500) and two Panasonic (VT50 & GT50) . The Samsung won, no IR after 8 hours of static image. The Panasonic TVs were pretty bad, especially the GT50.
This pretty much confirms some of the posts here.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57449881-221/samsung-plasma-wins-cnets-accidental-burn-in-test/

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post #16 of 758 Old 06-11-2012, 04:52 PM
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OUCH!
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post #17 of 758 Old 06-11-2012, 05:23 PM
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Hmm, that really makes me consider the E6500.
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post #18 of 758 Old 06-11-2012, 06:40 PM
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Thank you for sharing. Confirms my new purchase. Samsung it is!
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post #19 of 758 Old 06-11-2012, 08:07 PM
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I have the E8000 (the E6500 should be similar IR wise, considering how similar their overall PQ is) and IR is simply not an issue on this set, even when I've accidentally "abused" it by leaving an image on for far too long. My old C series had horrible IR, it would literally imprint an image in seconds (eg. opening up the picture adjust menu, and then closing it).
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post #20 of 758 Old 06-12-2012, 06:53 AM
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I own Samsungs now and this was going to be my first Panasonic...having 2nd thoughts now and I'm buying today. Glad I found this thread!
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post #21 of 758 Old 06-12-2012, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace1965 View Post

I just baffles me with all our ultra-modern technology, that this just has not been eliminated. Good to know because I was fixin to pull the trigger on a vt50 for the rec. room.

It's simply inherent to the technology. As soon as you accept the fact that a plasma panel has a finite life (from a panel brightness standpoint, anyway), the sooner you realize that individual/masses of pixels can "wear" unevenly due to what's being displayed and thus, cause IR/burn in.

Absolutely there are brands/models less susceptible to either, but it will never be wholly extinct.

That said, I've never seen either on my 3 1/2 yr old Kuro, but I'm confident that if I had placed it in a sports bar 3 years ago and ran ESPN 18 hours a day I KNOW I'd have it, Kuro or not.

I laughed when someone mentioned that a PDP "just" has better blacks though. Yeah, that and better off axis viewing, no clouding, no screen uniformity issues, zero blooming, better same-screen bright to dark contrast/transitions, etc. There are plenty of reasons why PDP is a superior choice to LCD most times.

BUT, I would tell you (or anyone else) that if you're bothered by IR this much, DEFINITELY return the set as you're never going to get "used" to it. Never.

BUT, I NEVER got "used" to my Sony XBR's blooming, terrible off-axis, poor motion handling, and clouding either, lmao.

None are a problem with my Kuro, thankfully.

Good luck.

James

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post #22 of 758 Old 06-12-2012, 07:22 AM
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I love my Samsung. I've never had problems with IR.
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post #23 of 758 Old 06-12-2012, 08:00 AM
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I've never had any IR problems with my 2011 Panasonic either. Alot of opinions being stated as facts here. For every person having an IR problem I bet there are 10 plus that have had no problems what so ever. But to condemn a whole line based on a couple of bad experiences is not cool.

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post #24 of 758 Old 06-12-2012, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, lots of discussion here. Thanks to everyone for their input.

The CNET post makes a very compelling argument for the E6500. After reading both reviews, it seems that the main difference is the E6500 does not get quite as bright as the ST50.

To the people saying that my IR will fade: No, I really don't think it will. I have run about 60 hours of content after I noticed it, including slides, random noise, regular TV, and the inverse image of the IR. It has not faded at all. I doubt that it will ever go away. And, it is NOT just visible on slides. I can see it during regular TV depending on what color is behind it. It's actually pretty noticeable.
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post #25 of 758 Old 06-12-2012, 07:21 PM
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I received an E7000 last Monday, I did not break it in in and have been in the Menu adjusting settings, playing calibration disks, watched 3 or 4 movies with letterbox, and also in the menu of my Denon receiver quite often. I have not seen a single second of image retention.
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post #26 of 758 Old 06-12-2012, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ruiz00tx View Post

I received an E7000 last Monday, I did not break it in in and have been in the Menu adjusting settings, playing calibration disks, watched 3 or 4 movies with letterbox, and also in the menu of my Denon receiver quite often. I have not seen a single second of image retention.

Brilliant! If I may, why did you go with the 7000 instead of the 6500? Why is it worth the extra $100?
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post #27 of 758 Old 06-12-2012, 07:51 PM
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Brilliant! If I may, why did you go with the 7000 instead of the 6500? Why is it worth the extra $100?

It is thinner(nicer looking), better speakers, dual core processor and smart evolution expansion slot which may be valuable in the future. Noboby knows yet, but i could imagine for example 48fps playback etc. new standars could be upgraded with that.
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post #28 of 758 Old 06-12-2012, 08:01 PM
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It is thinner(nicer looking), better speakers, dual core processor and smart evolution expansion slot which may be valuable in the future. Noboby knows yet, but i could imagine for example 48fps playback etc. new standars could be upgraded with that.

Have you tried 3D? I'm trying to see if the 7000 is equal to the 8000 in terms of 3D. I would assume so, but CNET said the 6500 was really bad compared to the 8000, so I'm not taking anything for granted.
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post #29 of 758 Old 06-12-2012, 08:13 PM
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Brilliant! If I may, why did you go with the 7000 instead of the 6500? Why is it worth the extra $100?

Alot of what Jtm79 said. In the end mostly because of the dual core processor and the expansion kit, hoping for the possibility of some future improvements or enhancements.
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post #30 of 758 Old 06-12-2012, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jtm79 View Post

It is thinner(nicer looking), better speakers, dual core processor and smart evolution expansion slot which may be valuable in the future. Noboby knows yet, but i could imagine for example 48fps playback etc. new standars could be upgraded with that.

oh ok, that makes a lot of sense actually.

I'm also curious about the 3D, have you tried it?
vanillacoffee is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

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