Panasonic 2012 ST vs VT - any difference in the image? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 50 Old 07-19-2012, 03:26 PM
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A better screen filter can significantly affect performance in a bright room. The VT50 (and GT50) also does have a little better PQ out-of-the-box thanks to the THX modes. After they've been calibrated, the difference is smaller. The GT/VT also offer two good modes for Day/Night if you want separate settings for those applications. I'm not sure about the EUR model, but the NA model only has one good mode to calibrate (Custom). There's Cinema mode as well, but it's not quite as good (gamma is a tad low and there's no adjustment).

As bhazard mentioned, the EUR ST/GT are even better than the NA models because they have a Color Management System and I believe they also have 96Hz for 24p content (not 100% sure of that though). One of the main benefits of the VT50 is the pro calibration modes, but the EUR model limits the peak brightness to ~82 cd/m2 (or ~24fL) in these modes which is too dim for a bright room (and for some, even a dark room). You might be better off using the THX Bright room mode for day viewing.

If you do a lot of day viewing and you're sure a 55" will suffice, then go with the VT50. If you're willing to sacrifice the superior screen filter and a bit of performance, and you want two separate modes for day/night, then get the GT50. If you only need one picture mode, and again you're willing to sacrifice the screen filter, then get the ST50. Something else to consider is that any set that is calibrated will perform better than an un-calibrated set. So for example, a calibrated ST50 will perform better than an un-calibrated VT50 (not considering the screen filter and bright room performance that is).
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post #32 of 50 Old 07-19-2012, 04:21 PM
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I had the exact same choice, ST vs VT. Two calibrators gave me identical advice, completely independent of each other. Of course I'm sure opinions will vary ...

If you're not going to get a pro calibration the THX modes (cinema and day) on the GT/VT are very desirable.

The anti-reflection of VT definitely helps with overhead light/reflections. It doesn't help as much with side lighting/reflection from windows, etc.

If you're going to get a pro-calibration the pq is extremely close. The biggest differences are:
- a slightly more accurate gamma can be achieved with the VT50,
- the VT50's isf modes allow for a more accurate second, brighter "day" calibration. (But you can still get an acceptable second "day" calibration on the ST50.)

Comparing calibrated screens in the real world ...
- If you have a home theater environment with very controlled lighting you would notice the difference between the ST and VT.
- Under normal day and night home viewing conditions most would not see the difference.


I knew I wanted to get a pro-calibration - I was looking at the 65" and the price difference between the ST and VT was $1600+, so I decided on the ST. If I was looking at a 55", where the price difference is less, I would have probably decided on the VT.

As it turns out ... The day I chose to buy the prices on the ST's had just jumped $200+ both online and everywhere else. The local Magnolia store gave me a killer deal on the 65" GT50 (only $200 over the ST figuring in free delivery) so that's what I ended up getting. Love it by the way ; )
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post #33 of 50 Old 07-19-2012, 04:46 PM
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http://revision3.com/hdnation/panasonic-tc-p65vt5
Check out the rave review about the VT50. Some great info on how easily the PQ can be tweaked using the THX modes and have it look amazing. I have the ST50 and the PQ out of the box with a few tweaks in Custom is quite amazing but after you see the show you may want the VT. Host Robert Herron says Panasonic not only hit a home run with the VT they knocked it out of the park.

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post #34 of 50 Old 07-19-2012, 04:56 PM
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"When calibrating TVs you aim to get DeltaE uv (grayscale) and DeltaE 94 (Color) under 3, which is the error %"

According to the link I posted above, all of these values are around .5 on the VT50. They show you the graph in the show.

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post #35 of 50 Old 07-19-2012, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subavision212 View Post

http://revision3.com/hdnation/panasonic-tc-p65vt5
Check out the rave review about the VT50. Some great info on how easily the PQ can be tweaked using the THX modes and have it look amazing. I have the ST50 and the PQ out of the box with a few tweaks in Custom is quite amazing but after you see the show you may want the VT. Host Robert Herron says Panasonic not only hit a home run with the VT they knocked it out of the park.

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Originally Posted by subavision212 View Post

"When calibrating TVs you aim to get DeltaE uv (grayscale) and DeltaE 94 (Color) under 3, which is the error %"
According to the link I posted above, all of these values are around .5 on the VT50. They show you the graph in the show.
They didn't tweak THX mode, seems like the used CalMAN + ControlCAL (edit: nm, I don't think they used ControlCAL) to calibrate the ISF modes (which is better than calibrating THX mode).

The graph they showed was for grayscale only and they used dE76 for calculating delta error (I personally prefer dEuv for grayscale). They didn't show the CIE chart or delta error for color. But ya, that's what the 10pt white balance will do for you. The ST/GT with a 2pt system can get dEuv under 2 on average. Under 3% is the target is what is considered unnoticeable to the human eye, so the VT50 is just a little closer to reference and will look a little more 'correct'.
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post #36 of 50 Old 07-19-2012, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

They didn't tweak THX mode, seems like the used CalMAN + ControlCAL to calibrate the ISF modes (which is better than calibrating THX mode).
The graph they showed was for grayscale only and they used dE76 for calculating delta error (I personally prefer dEuv for grayscale). They didn't show the CIE chart or delta error for color. But ya, that's what the 10pt white balance will do for you. The ST/GT with a 2pt system can get dEuv under 2 on average. Under 3% is the target is what is considered unnoticeable to the human eye, so the VT50 is just a little closer to reference and will look a little more 'correct'.
Thanks for setting it all straight. I'm certainly no techie but I thought all the praise for the display should be shared.

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post #37 of 50 Old 07-20-2012, 02:54 AM
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Thanks for many replies. I'm familiar with differencies in settings between the units and so forth. I have calibration equipments myself (nothing too fancy but I have calibrated my current TV and projector and they are perfect).
This TV will be only for watching SD and HD TV broadcasts (mostly SD).

Anyway I could not find reviews stating if there is difference between ST50 and VT50 in following.

1. Image quality from internal tuner
2. Image quality from analog video inputs
3. Sound quality from built in speakers
4. Image processing. I see reviews stating VT50 does not lock to 2:2 PAL film candence but ST50 does. Sounds little backwards to me.

Many reviews and owners state that VT50 screen filter is much better. I can concur that based on what I saw in store conditions but does that apply as huge in normal living room conditions with some soft lightning and windows?
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post #38 of 50 Old 07-20-2012, 09:51 AM
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In reading the comments on just this one page I keep seeing references to the ST calibrated vs the GT/VT out of the box on THX mode. With the ST it's always pro calibrated. What about owner calibrated as opposed to out of the box. There are several very good calibration DVD's available and in my experience many more owners will go that route than pay for a pro calibration. Keep in mind the OP wants a choice between the ST and the VT which as mentioned can show a $$$ spread of up to $1300 on the 65". How close will a owner calibrated ST get to the VT/TX out of the box or DVD calibrated?
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post #39 of 50 Old 07-20-2012, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

In reading the comments on just this one page I keep seeing references to the ST calibrated vs the GT/VT out of the box on THX mode. With the ST it's always pro calibrated. What about owner calibrated as opposed to out of the box. There are several very good calibration DVD's available and in my experience many more owners will go that route than pay for a pro calibration. Keep in mind the OP wants a choice between the ST and the VT which as mentioned can show a $$$ spread of up to $1300 on the 65". How close will a owner calibrated ST get to the VT/TX out of the box or DVD calibrated?
If you're just 'calibrating' without a meter and just using a calibration disc, then you're better off using the best picture preset rather than using Custom mode where you can do a grayscale/gamma calibration with a meter. The ST50's Cinema mode is fairly close to THX mode out of the box, the main difference being the gamma is a little lower in Cinema mode vs THX mode (average seems to be just over 2 based on Chad B's report of default Cinema). Obviously Custom mode can correct this with the gamma slider, but again you'd need a meter to do a grayscale calibration because the default Custom mode has bad RGB tracking.
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post #40 of 50 Old 07-20-2012, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post

Many reviews and owners state that VT50 screen filter is much better. I can concur that based on what I saw in store conditions but does that apply as huge in normal living room conditions with some soft lightning and windows?

The enhanced screen filter helps significantly with light coming from above (strait above and angled from above). With light from the sides, such as windows, the improvement is negligible at best. (Helped a friend set up a VT50.)
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

If you're just 'calibrating' without a meter and just using a calibration disc, then you're better off using the best picture preset rather than using Custom mode where you can do a grayscale/gamma calibration with a meter. The ST50's Cinema mode is fairly close to THX mode out of the box, the main difference being the gamma is a little lower in Cinema mode vs THX mode (average seems to be just over 2 based on Chad B's report of default Cinema). Obviously Custom mode can correct this with the gamma slider, but again you'd need a meter to do a grayscale calibration because the default Custom mode has bad RGB tracking.

Interesting points - do you think the Custom mode's RGB tracking is necessarily "bad" or just something that varies panel to panel? ("Bad" to me would mean it shifts, is undependable.)

FWIW, I have a 65GT50 and the difference between Cinema and THX Cinema is very slight. I'd characterize it this way - if you're watching during the day or when there's ambient light the difference is very, very difficult to see. But at night or when it's very dark you can see the difference more clearly, but even then the difference is still slight.

Also, one of the things that is most surprising and pleasing about this year's plasmas is how bright they are. The THX Bright/Day mode would have been more useful on previous years' plasma's!

Knowing what I know now - my original plan was to get the ST and I'm sure I would have been happy with it ; )
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post #41 of 50 Old 07-20-2012, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post

Interesting points - do you think the Custom mode's RGB tracking is necessarily "bad" or just something that varies panel to panel? ("Bad" to me would mean it shifts, is undependable.)
It's bad. RGB (red, green, blue) are so far from reference, dEuv is off the charts (which is again the error % from reference). Check out Chad B's review before and after calibration report for Custom mode. You need a meter to apply the correct offsets to get RGB tracking where they should. Your eyes are generally not a good tool to do this.
edit: I think Chad B's "Before" might actually be of Standard mode or Custom Mode in the default "Normal" color temp. It's actually not as bad as I thought if you use Warm2.
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FWIW, I have a 65GT50 and the difference between Cinema and THX Cinema is very slight. I'd characterize it this way - if you're watching during the day or when there's ambient light the difference is very, very difficult to see. But at night or when it's very dark you can see the difference more clearly, but even then the difference is still slight.
Shadow detail is what is affected most by gamma (which is mid-tone brightness). As you lower gamma, shadow detail becomes more visible but at the same time washes out the picture. I haven't actually compared, but I would imagine that gamma differences would be more noticeable in a darker room vs a bright room which might explain what you're seeing. IMHO, a lower gamma is better for a bright room and a higher gamma is better for a dark room. My HT area is usually dark so I prefer to set gamma to ~2.35. Anywhere between 2.2-2.5 is ideal.
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Also, one of the things that is most surprising and pleasing about this year's plasmas is how bright they are. The THX Bright/Day mode would have been more useful on previous years' plasma's!
Knowing what I know now - my original plan was to get the ST and I'm sure I would have been happy with it ; )
Custom mode is capable of the same brightness as THX Brightroom. But ya, these 2012 Panny's have improved efficiency and are therefore considerably brighter than the 2011 models. Add to that the improved black levels and the dynamic range is significantly better, giving the picture more pop.
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post #42 of 50 Old 07-26-2012, 12:18 PM
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So I guess the question is.....Which model??

I am taking back an LG 656200 LED, the picture is good but it is giving my wife headaches, I can see some flashing but am not video expert my any means....I have a family room with a glass sliding door off to the side and the kitchen windows often cause glare in the daytime, they are behind me to the side. The LG has a very "glossy" screen and sometimes was hard to watch with the glare during the day(only have had 3 weeks). At night its perfect except for when the kitchen light is on and it reflects in the middle of the screen. Will the VT and the coating help? Before I bought the LG, I saw the GT30 at best Buy and it looked great in the Magnolia room. But I was scared of plasma....Image retention and lack of brightness worried me. A friend of mine owns a HT installation business and I never asked him for help. He came over the other day(running some speaker wire for me in the walls) and told me he thought the LG pic was ok, but my wife was getting headaches from the flashing. He recommended a panasonic plasma. Then offered to get it for me at his cost, which is very low vs what Ive seen at BB

Whats the recommendation? I have been reading a ton of forums and reviews...Im so confused.
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post #43 of 50 Old 07-26-2012, 12:54 PM
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I have a very pressing dillema. I have no doubt that the VT50 should be better, but my hesitation is between 55VT50 and 65ST50 which have about he same price. The sitting distance is 12 feet which should be teh determining factor. Please advice

Thank a lot.
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post #44 of 50 Old 07-26-2012, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mihaeli View Post

I have a very pressing dillema. I have no doubt that the VT50 should be better, but my hesitation is between 55VT50 and 65ST50 which have about he same price. The sitting distance is 12 feet which should be teh determining factor. Please advice
Thank a lot.

I'd vote for the larger screen size at that distance. 12" is pretty far away for a 55".

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post #45 of 50 Old 07-26-2012, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mihaeli View Post

I have a very pressing dillema. I have no doubt that the VT50 should be better, but my hesitation is between 55VT50 and 65ST50 which have about he same price. The sitting distance is 12 feet which should be teh determining factor. Please advice
Thank a lot.

I have a 65 VT50 and a friend of mine has an ST50 and I see little difference between the two. I like the style of the VT much better but the ST is a VERY good set.

Mike

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post #46 of 50 Old 07-26-2012, 01:19 PM
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Thanks for the observation. What is your viewing distance? Do you agree that for 12'' viewing distance it is better to have 65' display?

Thanks a lot.
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post #47 of 50 Old 07-26-2012, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mihaeli View Post

Thanks for the observation. What is your viewing distance? Do you agree that for 12'' viewing distance it is better to have 65' display?
Thanks a lot.

I can personally attest that 12 feet is too far way for a 55, started off with that config and am now at 7 feet and it is much better. The 65 will be more immersive at 12 feet. In fact you may find yourself wanting to cut that distance down some.

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post #48 of 50 Old 07-29-2012, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post

I'm trying to decide between ST50 and VT50. I have seen both but not side by side. My impression was that VT50 did look much better even I adjusted both as well as I could in store conditions. Probably much better filter in VT50 did most difference but there was something else too, I think.
Has anyone compared (or saw review stating so) if there is difference in internal tuners, audio quality from internal speakers and analog video inputs between ST and VT?
Pretty much all reviews I've seen haven't tested analog video inputs and internal tuners or even sound quality. I will be using this TV mainly for watching SD and HD TV broadcasts and for movies I use projector. I would not like to use AV-amplifier for everyday TV watching so audio quality is important if there is real difference between the two. I have couple old but good devices with analog video outputs and I need to get as good as possible video out of them.
I could get 65ST50 for about same price as 55VT50 but I think I 55" is big enough for my needs so 55ST50 is also one possible choice.. I live in Europe so these are PAL units.
I also noticed funny thing in some European reviews stating that ST50 correctly detects 2:2 film candence while VT50 as problems with it. I wonder how different video processing is between the two models?

I've decided to return my VT50 55 inch back to BB in exchange for the ST50 55 inch. It was so funny because the guys in the magnolia looked at me crazy and side ways. One of the guys asked why are you returning a VT for an ST. My response was the ST are the same panels as the GT and VT minus the bells whistle why spend the extra money for features I wouldn't use. He told me I was wrong but he held back and didn't want to continue the conversation. I got the ST50 55 inch for $1250 with a two yr warranty and saved about 799 also tax was taken off because I purchased it in NH.
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post #49 of 50 Old 07-29-2012, 12:36 PM
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That's a great price for the ST50. I just recently purchased the ST50 as well but for a little more at BB. Now to go and pick it up and start the burn-in process.
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post #50 of 50 Old 07-29-2012, 12:41 PM
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That's a great price for the ST50. I just recently purchased the ST50 as well but for a little more at BB. Now to go and pick it up and start the burn-in process.

Not sure where you live but here in New England we have Paul's TV, they seem to be a little cheaper then best buy. BB will price match Pau's TV price.
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