Panasonic 2012 ST vs VT - any difference in the image? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 50 Old 07-13-2012, 02:57 AM - Thread Starter
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as title, i want to buy a panasonic plasma and my indecision is within 55st50 and 50vt50
the vt series has a big difference in the image (better image) than st series or not? thank you
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post #2 of 50 Old 07-13-2012, 05:12 AM
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The main thing is, are you going to have it professionally calibrated? If so, I would go with the VT50. Also, with some room lighting, the VT has a better filter for keeping blacks darker.

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post #3 of 50 Old 07-13-2012, 05:26 AM - Thread Starter
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nope, regarding the room lighting, no i usually close the window when i see movies or play games
regarding games i heard from someone that st have a minor imput lag
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post #4 of 50 Old 07-13-2012, 07:06 AM
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My 2 cents here..

if you don't need the better AR screen filter, you're not in love with the VT50's looks and you won't calibrate get the ST50.

To be honest all of the 2012's are pretty good out of the box with some basic contrast/brightness tweaks for most people. However anyone who has had their eyes trained to a properly calibrated TV will see where it needs some tweaks.

To answer your question...

Yes, calibrated there is a difference between the two.

how much of a difference? will depend on you. A trained eye will see the difference between a calibrated ST50 and a VT50 using familiar source material. As well the AR coating will be noticeable.

If you don't obsess when you see your gamma doesn't look right, or that specific shade of color is under or over saturated and or the wrong hue/luminance I would just get the ST50. Save your $$ for an OLED set in a few years, while these Panasonic sets are pretty nice everyone will have basically forgotten plasma once OLED is out and matured a few years. I can't wait to see a TV with good blacks that also does true 24bit color without all of the dithering/flickering plasmas do.
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post #5 of 50 Old 07-13-2012, 07:35 AM
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I have a VT and a close friend has an ST and the picture is very close. They are both calibrated, his from the service menu and mine in the Custom and ISF modes. IMO it's not worth the extra money for the VT

Mike

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post #6 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmwilker View Post

I have a VT and a close friend has an ST and the picture is very close. They are both calibrated, his from the service menu and mine in the Custom and ISF modes. IMO it's not worth the extra money for the VT

Can you tell a difference in the filter? When I compared the gt and vt, that was the only difference i could see.

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post #7 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post

Can you tell a difference in the filter? When I compared the gt and vt, that was the only difference i could see.

The room lighting is completely different. Mine is in a dimly lit room and my friends is in a brighter room with windows at each end of the room. In his room the ST does very well. I would think the VT would do better but that's just a guess.

Mike

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post #8 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 06:25 PM
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I started with the st then got the gt and finally the vt. I am one of those that can see everything that is wrong in a picture. Wish i never learned what to look for. The st pq is not on the level of the vt. I think it gets you about 75% of the way there. The ar is a lot better on the vt and mine is in a room with south and west facing windows. The motion on the vt is much better than the st. Shadow detail is better as well. and design is much better. I also wanted 24fps done properly. I am fairly critical and i hate myself for that. I tried to go cheap and couldn't. If i didn't know what to look for i would probably still have the st. But on a happy note the vt only cost me $450 more than the st so im ok with that.
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post #9 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnbiker socal View Post

I started with the st then got the gt and finally the vt. I am one of those that can see everything that is wrong in a picture. Wish i never learned what to look for. The st pq is not on the level of the vt. I think it gets you about 75% of the way there. The ar is a lot better on the vt and mine is in a room with south and west facing windows. The motion on the vt is much better than the st. Shadow detail is better as well. and design is much better. I also wanted 24fps done properly. I am fairly critical and i hate myself for that. I tried to go cheap and couldn't. If i didn't know what to look for i would probably still have the st. But on a happy note the vt only cost me $450 more than the st so im ok with that.

What size VT do you have?

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post #10 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnbiker socal View Post

I started with the st then got the gt and finally the vt. I am one of those that can see everything that is wrong in a picture. Wish i never learned what to look for. The st pq is not on the level of the vt. I think it gets you about 75% of the way there. The ar is a lot better on the vt and mine is in a room with south and west facing windows. The motion on the vt is much better than the st. Shadow detail is better as well. and design is much better. I also wanted 24fps done properly. I am fairly critical and i hate myself for that. I tried to go cheap and couldn't. If i didn't know what to look for i would probably still have the st. But on a happy note the vt only cost me $450 more than the st so im ok with that.

That's funny because every issue I saw on the GT was there on the VT too albeit ever so slightly less. In addition, I thought the picture on the VT was a little dimmer, most likely the fault of the filter.

Just wondering... whose settings did you use on your sets or did you calibrate them yourself?

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post #11 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 08:11 PM
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I have a 55" vt. I have only had the tv 2 weeks with only about 40 hours on it so i have not calibrated it yet. I agree may be ever so slightly dimmer but the filter does help. The motion is not as pronounced with the vt as it was on gt. I am real sensitive to motion. In a dark room the vt was more accurate OOTB than the gt IMO. With at the time there being 200 dollar difference between the gt and vt i took back gt for vt.
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post #12 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnbiker socal View Post

The st pq is not on the level of the vt. I think it gets you about 75% of the way there. The ar is a lot better on the vt and mine is in a room with south and west facing windows.
75% is a stretch, even before calibration. After calibration, the ST50/GT50 is about 97% there, and to most people that 3% wouldn't even be noticeable and would only be noticeable with measurements.
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post #13 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

75% is a stretch, even before calibration. After calibration, the ST50/GT50 is about 97% there, and to most people that 3% wouldn't even be noticeable and would only be noticeable with measurements.

From what I've seen I have to agree with you

Mike

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post #14 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

75% is a stretch, even before calibration. After calibration, the ST50/GT50 is about 97% there, and to most people that 3% wouldn't even be noticeable and would only be noticeable with measurements.
97% is a stretch. Even the pro reviews won't tell you that. Get what you want i did. I have experience with using all 3 in home. If i thought the st/gt was that close i wouldn't have the vt now.
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post #15 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnbiker socal View Post

97% is a stretch. Even the pro reviews won't tell you that. Get what you want i did. I have experience with using all 3 in home. If i thought the st/gt was that close i wouldn't have the vt now.
Actually, you have virtually no experience with them, because none of them were calibrated.
They may not say exactly 97%, but I bet they'll agree for the most part.

When calibrating TVs you aim to get DeltaE uv (grayscale) and DeltaE 94 (Color) under 3, which is the error % where they say it's no longer perceivable to the human eye. All 3 TVs achieve this for the most part, but the VT50 with the Color Management System (which is partly broken) and the 10pt white balance vs the 2pt on the ST/GT allows the VT50 to get nearly perfect. However, because the ST/GT are already so good, the VT50 is only a little better and not even noticeable to most people. Just look at the calibration reports of all 3 sets, which can be found at High Def Junkies dot com in Chad B's review section or D-Nice's settings thread / Value Electronics website and look at the DeltaE uv charts as well as the Color charts.

I'm not saying you made the wrong decision, I'm just disagreeing with your 75% claim.
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post #16 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 08:56 PM
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I am also disagreeing with yours. I made a judgement based on my experience. Granted a good calibration will probably cost 3-500 dollars and seeing most pro's say that the vt doesn't gain much if anything after calibration i would be out about the same amount of money. Considering i live in socal and have south and west windows with tons of light coming in. I can switch among thx and thx bright room at a flash as opposed to the st. Not saying its right for you but it is for me.
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post #17 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnbiker socal View Post

I am also disagreeing with yours. I made a judgement based on my experience. Granted a good calibration will probably cost 3-500 dollars and seeing most pro's say that the vt doesn't gain much if anything after calibration i would be out about the same amount of money. Considering i live in socal and have south and west windows with tons of light coming in. I can switch among thx and thx bright room at a flash as opposed to the st. Not saying its right for you but it is for me.

I see them both on a fairly regular basis as one of my best friends has the ST. It has been calibrated through the service menu. My VT has been calibrated in the ISF modes and Custom mode. I see very little difference in the two sets.
Do you have links to where these pros say that the VT doesn't gain much if anything after calibration? If so I'd like to see them.

BTW: I have NO regrets in getting the VT

Mike

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post #18 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnbiker socal View Post

I am also disagreeing with yours. I made a judgement based on my experience.
That's fine by me. In my experience as a DIY calibrator, I made a decision based on knowing the technical differences between these sets through calibration reports and reviews, as well as my own personal needs.
Quote:
Granted a good calibration will probably cost 3-500 dollars and seeing most pro's say that the vt doesn't gain much if anything after calibration i would be out about the same amount of money.
Whatever 'pro' said this isn't what I would consider to be a pro. I'm willing to bet ANY ISF/THX calibrator on these boards will disagree with that statement.
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Considering i live in socal and have south and west windows with tons of light coming in. I can switch among thx and thx bright room at a flash as opposed to the st. Not saying its right for you but it is for me.
Once again, I never said you made the wrong decision. There are reasons to get the VT50 and I respect your decision and never once argued it. rolleyes.gif
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post #19 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 09:19 PM
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Here is one im not going to go looking for the others i have read.
http://flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1339052567
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post #20 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mtnbiker socal View Post

Here is one im not going to go looking for the others i have read.
http://flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1339052567

I'm not interested in making this an argument but this is a review of an EU model. From what I've read there are a lot of differences in the EU and US models. IMO there is very little difference in a calibrated ST and a calibrated VT and like I said I see the ST on a regular basis.

Mike

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post #21 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 09:30 PM
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flatpanelhd is a European review site (a decent one I will admit) but they aren't what I would consider pros. I would only consider some reviewers to have enough knowledge to be considered a pro (like David Mackenzie of HDTVTest.co.uk). I would consider a pro to be a professional ISF/THX calibrator and I'm willing to bet any ISF/THX calibrator on these boards will disagree that the VT50 doesn't benefit from a calibration.

I will admit that the average joe won't see much (if any) of a difference between THX mode and a calibrated ISF mode, which is probably who flatpanelHD are referring to as 'most users'. But to videophiles like the people here at AVS, they will.

Let's just agree to disagree and move on.
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post #22 of 50 Old 07-15-2012, 09:56 PM
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Yes, it's getting nowhere. The $400.00 difference is not enough money for me to qualm about. Especially when i was going to get the 60" sharp elite. The vt is cheap by comparison. You have your opinion and i have mine. I did make this decision in part by contacting my calibrator from my last tv. Im happy with what i have, your happy with what you have.
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post #23 of 50 Old 07-16-2012, 12:05 AM
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I say go with the the U50. It offers ~83.5% of the GT's PQ, at a substantially lower percentage of its price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnbiker socal View Post

Yes, it's getting nowhere. The $400.00 difference is not enough money for me to qualm about. Especially when i was going to get the 60" sharp elite. The vt is cheap by comparison. You have your opinion and i have mine. I did make this decision in part by contacting my calibrator from my last tv. Im happy with what i have, your happy with what you have.

No, when they type "let's just agree to disagree & move on", that means they want theirs to be the last post on the matter (otherwise they have to reply again in order to get the last word). But the reason so much defensiveness & emotional reaction to your choice in the first place- when someone's opinion is backed by having had all three in their home it seems to incite more vitriol, greater need to take it down.
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post #24 of 50 Old 07-16-2012, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel 
No it means exactly as it sounds...

Oh okay. Move on not meaning stop discussing it,but moving on in some other way.

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post #25 of 50 Old 07-16-2012, 09:34 PM
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Maybe D-Nice can help clear matters up here ?
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post #26 of 50 Old 07-16-2012, 10:14 PM
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There are a few things that affected the picture when mtnbiker socal viewed them in his home. 1. none of them were calibrated and 2. the filter on the VT50 is darker which makes blacks appear deeper in bright rooms. If that's a problem for you as it is to mtnbiker socal, you might want to consider the VT50. Again, I never criticized him (or any VT50 owner) for their purchase decision, I just disputed the 75% claim where he basically feels that the ST50 is far from a VT50 in terms of performance. That's the only disagreement here. I understand why some would want the VT50 (features, styling, slightly better performance etc.)

Visual differences between sets can pretty much be seen through calibration reports/numbers/charts. Black levels and brightness are measured in foot lamberts or candelas per squared meter, and contrast ratio is calculated based on those measurements using certain test patterns. All 3 models have essentially the same black levels and are capable of the same brightness levels, so contrast ratios are more or less the same. The only time where the VT50 will appear to have better black levels is in a bright room because of the darker filter. As far as color/grayscale, DeltaE (UV for grayscale and 1994 for color) is used to measure the error % from reference. Under 3% is what is considered unnoticeable to the human eye. Again, all three models (ST/GT/VT) achieve this goal after calibration, but the VT50 has more extensive controls to make them even more perfect. But because the ST/GT are already fairly good after calibration, the difference between all three models is fairly small (especially the ST and GT where they perform the same). The numbers don't lie...

I don't want to name names to drag them into the argument, but clearly others in this discussion have seen both of them calibrated and seem to agree with me. Even some of the most respected calibrators in the industry (which again I won't name in respect to them) have said that they all perform similarly after they've been calibrated.

Believe who you want to believe, or wait for the experts to give their 0.02. Just wanted to make it clear that my claims aren't backed up by nothing and the basis of them are made through calibration reports / reviews. I'm no expert or pro calibrator, but as a DIY calibrator and a frequent visitor of these boards, I know enough to understand the numbers and can make an educated guess based on reports, discussion and reviews.
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post #27 of 50 Old 07-17-2012, 03:07 AM - Thread Starter
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so the 12000 - 24000 grey variations and the 2000 - 2500 field drive is a commercial thing?
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post #28 of 50 Old 07-17-2012, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
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so the 12000 - 24000 grey variations and the 2000 - 2500 field drive is a commercial thing?
All 3 models have the '2500 field drive' on the North American version (EUR ST50 is 'only' 2000). But yes, a lot of times it's just marketing. Several reviews and comments from pros have suggested that the extra shades of gradations makes no noticeable difference.
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post #29 of 50 Old 07-19-2012, 12:26 PM
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I'm trying to decide between ST50 and VT50. I have seen both but not side by side. My impression was that VT50 did look much better even I adjusted both as well as I could in store conditions. Probably much better filter in VT50 did most difference but there was something else too, I think.

Has anyone compared (or saw review stating so) if there is difference in internal tuners, audio quality from internal speakers and analog video inputs between ST and VT?
Pretty much all reviews I've seen haven't tested analog video inputs and internal tuners or even sound quality. I will be using this TV mainly for watching SD and HD TV broadcasts and for movies I use projector. I would not like to use AV-amplifier for everyday TV watching so audio quality is important if there is real difference between the two. I have couple old but good devices with analog video outputs and I need to get as good as possible video out of them.

I could get 65ST50 for about same price as 55VT50 but I think I 55" is big enough for my needs so 55ST50 is also one possible choice.. I live in Europe so these are PAL units.

I also noticed funny thing in some European reviews stating that ST50 correctly detects 2:2 film candence while VT50 as problems with it. I wonder how different video processing is between the two models?
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post #30 of 50 Old 07-19-2012, 01:43 PM
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The ST50 might be an even bigger value for you in the EU. I forget why, but it matched even closer to the VT than NA models.

I couldn't justify the premium of the VT when the 65ST50 performed so close. I don't use THX modes, don't use Smart tv (HTPC), would get my own calibration, and 60hz viewing of 24p works really well. I didn't feel a screen filter and a few extra ISF adjustments were worth $1000+ more.

I couldn't be happier with my ST50. Blows away my LG.

Rahzel was also spot on. A VT is better for mtnbiker in his situation, but every calibration sheet has the 2 tvs extremely close. Mtnbiker did not have all the tvs calibrated, so it is a subjective assessment.
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