Calibration is a scam - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
jeffrey76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
$350-$500 to have a professional calibrate your display is a scam, pure and simple. It was worth it with CRTs but today is irrelevant for consumer televisions. Not to mention you have to get your tv re-calibrated Again for even more money after a certain amount of hours. For consumer televisions, its is simply irrelevant.

A calibration disc gets you a very accurate picture already, and you can re-calibrate your tv again in the future for no extra cost. Calibrators try to convince you its worth it simply because thats how they make their money.

Oh, so blue is 1-3% a different shade of blue than the source. On screen, It is not visible to the human eye. You know its all BS when someone needs a meter to see the difference and errors.

Don't fall for it. Save that $500+ dollars and get a better plasma and calibration disc.
jeffrey76 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 07:06 PM
"Don't PM Me Bro"
 
RandyWalters's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: El Segundo, Calif
Posts: 17,493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)
Liked: 477
You really need to post this in the Display Calibration forum.....

http://www.avsforum.com/f/139/display-calibration

Time for some popcorn biggrin.gif

Randy
TC-P55ST60, TC-P50GT50, TC-P46G10, TH-42PZ700U, TH-42PX50U, HP LC2600N, TiVo Series3, TWC Cisco 8742HDC DVR, Onkyo TX-SR333, URC R40 Remote.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Gallery -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
RandyWalters is offline  
post #3 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 07:11 PM
Advanced Member
 
hodges69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NC
Posts: 870
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
thanks for the heads up...i knew my eyes were deceiving me for years...after every calibration,there was a tremendous increase in PQ...my non-tech family immediately noticed it as well..since inow know the cause...i guess i will not have this done in the future..rolleyes.gif
hodges69 is online now  
post #4 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 07:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rahzel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,714
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffrey76 View Post

$350-$500 to have a professional calibrate your display is a scam, pure and simple. It was worth it with CRTs but today is irrelevant for consumer televisions. Not to mention you have to get your tv re-calibrated Again for even more money after a certain amount of hours. For consumer televisions, its is simply irrelevant.
A calibration disc gets you a very accurate picture already, and you can re-calibrate your tv again in the future for no extra cost. Calibrators try to convince you its worth it simply because thats how they make their money.
Oh, so blue is 1-3% a different shade of blue than the source. On screen, It is not visible to the human eye. You know its all BS when someone needs a meter to see the difference and errors.
Don't fall for it. Save that $500+ dollars and get a better plasma and calibration disc.
No TV will ever be accurate out of the box due to the automated manufacturing process and panel variances. Every TV will be shifted towards a certain color out of the box that can only be corrected with a measuring device / meter because the eye is a bad measuring tool for color. These color errors can easily be seen by the human eye. Very few sets are decent enough out of the box where a calibration may not be noticeable to certain people, but any set can benefit from a calibration. Of course YMMV in terms of how noticeable it is.

A calibration disc alone has limited use without a meter. Outside of the basic controls, all it can do is display the test patterns, but you need a meter to tell you how far off it is from reference and where it needs to be. Again, your eye is not a good way to measure. That's not to say the differences can't be seen by the human eye, just that your eye cannot tell where it's supposed to be.

TVs only need recalibrations every 2-4 years (depending on the display and usage). Saying a "certain amount of hours" is a little misleading.
rahzel is offline  
post #5 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 08:04 PM
Advanced Member
 
sonyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
um....dude are you trying to start a war?
sonyfan is offline  
post #6 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
jeffrey76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodges69 View Post

thanks for the heads up...i knew my eyes were deceiving me for years...after every calibration,there was a tremendous increase in PQ...my non-tech family immediately noticed it as well..since inow know the cause...i guess i will not have this done in the future..rolleyes.gif

Thats because tv Out of the box settings are bad. If you used just a calibration disc you would have gotten 95% there and saved so much money. 5% difference is not worth $500+
jeffrey76 is offline  
post #7 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 08:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 7,286
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 150 Post(s)
Liked: 241
a trolling we will go, a trolling we will go....... rolleyes.gif
Otto Pylot is offline  
post #8 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 08:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rahzel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,714
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffrey76 View Post

Thats because tv Out of the box settings are bad. If you used just a calibration disc you would have gotten 95% there and saved so much money. 5% difference is not worth $500+
How do you calibrate grayscale and measure color luminance, hue and saturation with a calibration disc? How do you know how far they are from reference? How do you know what the gamma is? Again, these things cannot be calibrated with a disc alone... you need a meter. If the settings out of the box are bad, a calibration disc won't provide any help (or very limited help) in these areas.
rahzel is offline  
post #9 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
jeffrey76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

How do you calibrate grayscale and measure color luminance, hue and saturation with a calibration disc? How do you know how far they are from reference? How do you know what the gamma is? Again, these things cannot be calibrated with a disc alone... you need a meter. If the settings out of the box are bad, a calibration disc won't provide any help (or very limited help) in these areas.

I doesn't matter really matter. Even if it cant adjust those, you still need a meter to tell the difference. It simply isnt worth it. I got screwed for my calibration by a "pro" calibrator hnot worth the money I couldnt even tell a difference
jeffrey76 is offline  
post #10 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 08:22 PM
Newbie
 
jours's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

A calibration disc alone has limited use without a meter. Outside of the basic controls, all it can do is display the test patterns, but you need a meter to tell you how far off it is from reference and where it needs to be. Again, your eye is not a good way to measure. That's not to say the differences can't be seen by the human eye, just that your eye cannot tell where it's supposed to be.

I'm interested to hear what others say about this. Coming from a musical background I know that if I take a familiar song like Amazing Grace and transpose it a couple steps most (non-musician) listeners will not recognize a problem at all. When told only that the rendition is different, perhaps by playing it back-to-back with the original, those same listeners will struggle to describe the problem using words like "brighter" or "sadder".

More to the point, what if I took your piano and tuned the whole thing perfectly to A=420Hz? You would of course hear the difference if you compared it to a properly tuned piano and a meter would quickly give me away. But in the absence of such a tool you would almost certainly never notice. Isn't this the same as calibrating a TV without a meter? It's relatively correct, just not absolutely so.

Edit: I know very little about my TV and I've certainly never calibrated one so I'm probably missing something conceptual here...
jours is offline  
post #11 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
jeffrey76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jours View Post

I'm interested to hear what others say about this. Coming from a musical background I know that if I take a familiar song like Amazing Grace and transpose it a couple steps most (non-musician) listeners will not recognize a problem at all. When told only that the rendition is different, perhaps by playing it back-to-back with the original, those same listeners will struggle to describe the problem using words like "brighter" or "sadder".
More to the point, what if I took your piano and tuned the whole thing perfectly to A=420Hz? You would of course hear the difference if you compared it to a properly tuned piano and a meter would quickly give me away. But in the absence of such a tool you would almost certainly never notice. Isn't this the same as calibrating a TV without a meter? It's relatively correct, just not absolutely so.
Edit: I know very little about my TV and I've certainly never calibrated one so I'm probably missing something conceptual here...

I am a musician as well (play guitar). I dont think its the same thing. Without a tuner, you can easily hear bad intonation, out of tune etc...

With tv calibrations, you cannot tell with your eyes a difference of 1-3% shade of a color.
jeffrey76 is offline  
post #12 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 08:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
qwknuf6's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 592
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 89
How can YOU decide calibration is not worth it for ME or ANYONE else !mad.gif

If you do not want an accurate display that is your choice but if you think you are getting 95% of a good calibration on your own .....well I want in on this wager.

Mark
qwknuf6 is online now  
post #13 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
jeffrey76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post

How can YOU decide calibration is not worth it for ME or ANYONE else !mad.gif
If you do not want an accurate display that is your choice but if you think you are getting 95% of a good calibration on your own .....well I want in on this wager.
Mark

Well I have first hand experience. I used Disney WOW and got great results. I then had a pro calibrator calibrate my tv and BARELY any difference. I feel scamed. I am allowed to express my frustrations.
jeffrey76 is offline  
post #14 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 08:56 PM
Newbie
 
jours's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffrey76 View Post

I am a musician as well (play guitar). I dont think its the same thing. Without a tuner, you can easily hear bad intonation, out of tune etc...
With tv calibrations, you cannot tell with your eyes a difference of 1-3% shade of a color.

I could definitely spot a piano that was very slightly out of tune after 30 years of playing. Sounds like you can too. I certainly believe there are others who can similarly discern colors. In fact I've seen graphic designers ace this exercise which I find absurdly difficult. Some of those colors can't be more than 1-3% different.

So I really don't doubt the benefit of calibration. My post above was just pondering the issue of needing a meter for calibration. Much like tuning a guitar "to itself" I imagine you could get a decent outcome without one. But I'm sure someone's going to come along and set me straight on that...
jours is offline  
post #15 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 09:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rahzel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,714
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffrey76 View Post

I doesn't matter really matter. Even if it cant adjust those, you still need a meter to tell the difference. It simply isnt worth it. I got screwed for my calibration by a "pro" calibrator hnot worth the money I couldnt even tell a difference
No, that's simply false. Just because you don't see a difference doesn't mean everyone won't. Everyone's eyesight is different. To say a calibration makes no difference is just straight lies. Not you mention you use one example and make a bold claim such as this based on your one experience.

This thread shouldn't be moved, it should simply be locked.
rahzel is offline  
post #16 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 10:34 PM
Advanced Member
 
Kingcarcas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: East Los Angeles
Posts: 753
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 30
I've suspected this for some time but i won't make a post about it.........

Kingcarcas is offline  
post #17 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 10:57 PM
Senior Member
 
Leon!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffrey76 View Post

I doesn't matter really matter. Even if it cant adjust those, you still need a meter to tell the difference. It simply isnt worth it. I got screwed for my calibration by a "pro" calibrator hnot worth the money I couldnt even tell a difference

At least you saw some improvement- I've read reports here by those who liked their picture even less after getting it calibrated. An "Emperor's New Clothes" situation? Or a case of J6P's who don't know what they,re looking at?

either way thanks for sharing. May be bad for business, but at least you didn't mention who it was (not best buy I hope?)!
Leon! is offline  
post #18 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 11:19 PM
Advanced Member
 
sonyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
er...yea...um..ok so a Geek Squad calibration is a kid with just a laptop and a suction cup?
sonyfan is offline  
post #19 of 32 Old 07-24-2012, 11:41 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
DaGamePimp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: WA State
Posts: 15,533
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 163


Jason

My Twitch Game Stream [PS4/Xone/PC]...
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DaGamePimp is offline  
post #20 of 32 Old 07-25-2012, 12:45 AM
Advanced Member
 
Vic12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 746
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 25
I definitely agree that CRT tvs needed calibration.A few of the ones I had the geometry was suprisingly way off.Not sure if age was the reason.

I've had 2 lcds 46 inch.The colors and geometry looked very good.The other issues of the tv like motion blur,off angle viewing fadeout,bars on screen etc were WAY more of an issue than colors and geometry on newer lcds,plasma.

If that is the way they want to spend there money than so be it.$500 to one person is the same as $20 to another person.
Vic12345 is offline  
post #21 of 32 Old 07-25-2012, 12:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
jeffrey76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingcarcas View Post

I've suspected this for some time but i won't make a post about it.........

Don't blame you. People THINK they see a difference because they would feel ripped off if they didn't. They fool themselves into seeing a difference, its a form of denial.

If calibration really made a difference, meters would be unncessary, If you need freaking equipment to spot accuracy errors, its a big load of crap.
jeffrey76 is offline  
post #22 of 32 Old 07-25-2012, 12:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
jeffrey76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

I definitely agree that CRT tvs needed calibration.A few of the ones I had the geometry was suprisingly way off.Not sure if age was the reason.
I've had 2 lcds 46 inch.The colors and geometry looked very good.The other issues of the tv like motion blur,off angle viewing fadeout,bars on screen etc were WAY more of an issue than colors and geometry on newer lcds,plasma.
If that is the way they want to spend there money than so be it.$500 to one person is the same as $20 to another person.


I am not telling people they can't spend $500 for one. I am just trying to warn people who are thinking about it and could get duped into paying all that money for something that is irrelevant. $20 will get you 95% there. I don't want to see anyone get fooled into the BS
jeffrey76 is offline  
post #23 of 32 Old 07-25-2012, 01:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rahzel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,714
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 147
You don't need a meter to see the differences, it's just used to set the TV properly. Plus you're ignoring the TVs that perform very poorly out of the box. Only the expensive models are even remotely close and even those models can benefit from a calibration.

Again, just because you don't see the differences doesn't mean that everyone won't. rolleyes.gif
rahzel is offline  
post #24 of 32 Old 07-25-2012, 01:19 AM
Advanced Member
 
qwknuf6's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 592
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffrey76 View Post

I am not telling people they can't spend $500 for one. I am just trying to warn people who are thinking about it and could get duped into paying all that money for something that is irrelevant. $20 will get you 95% there. I don't want to see anyone get fooled into the BS

Why do you have to warn people?
There is no deception in display calibration . no hidden fees ,no bait and switch .
either you want an accurate display or you don't , you will NOT get 95% with a calibration disc ,you are misleading everyone to say you can,YOU may like an uncalibrated display better than a calibrated one ,many people like vivid mode even though it may be the farthest from accurate ,

Please stop telling other people how to spend their money:rolleyes:
qwknuf6 is online now  
post #25 of 32 Old 07-25-2012, 03:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tbird8450's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,990
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffrey76 View Post

Don't blame you. People THINK they see a difference because they would feel ripped off if they didn't. They fool themselves into seeing a difference, its a form of denial.
If calibration really made a difference, meters would be unncessary, If you need freaking equipment to spot accuracy errors, its a big load of crap.

This doesn't make any sense.

You don't need freaking equipment to spot accuracy errors, but equipment is absolutely crucial to properly correcting those errors.

If you brought your car in to get new tires, would you want the mechanic to just pump air in until it "seemed" right, or would you want them using a pressure gauge to properly set the psi for each tire?

Either your "pro" calibrator wasn't very good, you have no idea what a calibrated image is supposed to look like versus what it isn't (a good calibrator will educate you), or, through sheer luck your display was truly about as accurate as it could have been already (this is very unlikely).

Anyway, there's nothing else to debate unless you provide before and after measurements. Surely you wouldn't mind sharing your calibration report/measurements...
tbird8450 is offline  
post #26 of 32 Old 07-25-2012, 04:12 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
DaGamePimp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: WA State
Posts: 15,533
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 163
Guys just let this thread die, the OP is trolling and just trying to stir things up, don't fall for it... stop responding.

Those of us that do calibrations and those that have had proper calibrations know better so just let it go, the OP will lose interest if ignored and move on.

Jason

My Twitch Game Stream [PS4/Xone/PC]...
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DaGamePimp is offline  
post #27 of 32 Old 07-25-2012, 04:33 AM
Advanced Member
 
Vic12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 746
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 25
I can see this is different strokes for different folks.

I'm not into having a perfect picture because I watch tv as an enjoyable experience to watch what's being shown, and having it near100% perfect would worry me that something would happen to it.If it looks outstandingly good -you might watch how good the tv looks instead of the show that's on.Some consider perfectionism a disease.

I think a person with a little calibration experience can figure how to improve the colors whereas a person without the experience either live with the present tv or opt for calibration.

Ps
I've fiddled with colors enough to drive everyone in the house and myself nuts but I can turn it off and forget about the PERFECT picture and just watch the program on tv.
Vic12345 is offline  
post #28 of 32 Old 07-25-2012, 04:53 AM
 
pds3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 231
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Guys just let this thread die, the OP is trolling and just trying to stir things up, don't fall for it... stop responding.
Those of us that do calibrations and those that have had proper calibrations know better so just let it go, the OP will lose interest if ignored and move on.
Jason

Actually I don't think the OP was trolling at all and does bring up some very valid points. I could definitely understand why someone might want to add a little more color intensity, contrast, or sharpness to the picture (which would then not be accurate) but might definitely be preferred by an individual.
pds3 is offline  
post #29 of 32 Old 07-25-2012, 04:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,083
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 174 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffrey76 View Post

I am not telling people they can't spend $500 for one. I am just trying to warn people who are thinking about it and could get duped into paying all that money for something that is irrelevant. $20 will get you 95% there. I don't want to see anyone get fooled into the BS


You know absolutely nothing about calibration obviously, I'm sorry you had a bad experience but that doesnt justify slamming all calibrators and folks that believe in either diy or pro cals. I'd be interested to know the model of the tv you had calibrated and who did it, obviously not dnice, chadb or any of the other great calibrators that post here and offer services. You certainly entitled to your opinion but many here wont agree with it,.

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is online now  
post #30 of 32 Old 07-25-2012, 05:38 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
ccotenj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: the toxic waste dumps of new jersey
Posts: 21,915
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 89
hmmm... the return of zues, maybe? tongue.gif

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

ccotenj is offline  
Closed Thread Plasma Flat Panel Displays

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off