What can we expect from 2013 Panasonic Plasmas? - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 1445 Old 01-25-2013, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I'm convinced by measurements...when we get there, we'll be the first to concede.

Rogo, was that the last panel that Pioneer demoed? Maybe you weren't wowed by the ZT60 because flat panel tech has managed to creep closer to the impressiveness of that panel since then, and you have been desensitized to these improvements over the years visiting CES on a (I presume) yearly basis. I'm just trying to rationalize why the ZT60 seemed so unimpressive to you.

Yeah, I think that's it. As we get closer, the margin seems less and less impressive. I don't want to give the impression that it wasn't good; the ZT60 is going to be very good. I just wasn't like, "OMG, this is freaking amazing."
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

The real question would be: how would the ZT60 handle the pioneer ECC demo material? I'm guessing it would hold it's own. It's going to be splitting hairs now between this set and oled in 2013. AVForums talked about the bezel disappearing or being extremely hard to find in that demo with the VT50 and with Panasonic trying to mimic the Elite graphics, I can only guess they feel they've arrived with a set that combines the best of pioneer and panasonic technology together. This was the plan a few years ago, it just took longer than expected.

So, I'll have to concur with AVForums here. It was a good demo. What it didn't have was the "wow" of that Kuro demo from back when. But that's probably because the baseline VT50 was so much better than what existed back in 2008? 2009? Whatever year that was.
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

I think you've said you have a 65VT50, correct me if I'm wrong. That set has measured anywhere from .0018-.0022 ft/L- essentially twice the mll of the 9G Kuros. If the ZT60 definitely looks blacker than the VT50, it's basically hitting 9G blacks or better. 2012 was already pretty close to begin with.

It'll be nice if the VT60 can show some mll improvements over the VT50, too, in addition to being priced as a GT50.

Yes, gmarceau, I have a VT50. So 2x the Kuro black level, then. I suppose it's possible the ZT60 will in fact test at half that, though I question how anyone eyeballed that with any precision.

As for pricing, Panasonic seemed pretty adamant that $1000 or so over VT MSRP was where ZT was headed, which was intimated to mean $4500 MSRP. Of course, things can change, but that was the number I was left with after multiple conversations. Whenever I tried to suggest "maybe $4000?", I found myself being talked back up higher.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #632 of 1445 Old 01-25-2013, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by [Irishman] View Post

No, it wouldn't, otherwise people would all buy the Sharp 80" and 90" sets with the awful video processing.

I said 90" Panasonic VT not the Sharp. Size trumpts when the performance is high like in the VT.
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post #633 of 1445 Old 01-25-2013, 08:12 AM
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Yes, sad but true. Despite years of denial. We men like to think it's the quality but in the end....size matters. smile.gif
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post #634 of 1445 Old 01-25-2013, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post


Yes, gmarceau, I have a VT50. So 2x the Kuro black level, then. I suppose it's possible the ZT60 will in fact test at half that, though I question how anyone eyeballed that with any precision.

As for pricing, Panasonic seemed pretty adamant that $1000 or so over VT MSRP was where ZT was headed.

I think if you could clearly tell that the ZT was blacker than the VT, then this set is definitely hitting 9-9.5G kuro territory, possibly better- it's not like someone can easily eyeball .007 v. .008 ft/L, so this is telling me that there is a good chance it's a nice drop from the VT50 in mll and possibly the blackest plasma commerically released. The ring demo stuff is OLED now, so since that's being shown on the show floor at multiple locations, I could see how it's less impressive now.

The Panasonic insider is hinting at the VT60 series being closer in line with what the mid-range GT50 series was going for last year, so that might $1000 price premium might be a little more forgiving.

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post #635 of 1445 Old 01-25-2013, 11:06 AM
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Me wonders if the VT50 was fully calibrated to its peak performance

Then again, I'm a skeptic like that
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post #636 of 1445 Old 01-25-2013, 11:50 AM
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"Panasonic TV CES Show 2013
Plasma, LED, and OLED 4K UHD TVs from Panasonic
by Robert Wiley and Jack Burden, editors/reviewers

Panasonic also had a display showing a 4K UHD OLED TV (56inch), but there was only one piece on display and though it looked great, there was no ETA on delivery this year.

Their TV lineup was split evenly between LED TVs and Plasma TVs, with enhanced black levels in their new TC-P60ZT60 series which are pitch and look to be 20% better than the black levels of the VT50 series from last year which were an industry best. In a side to side comparison in a pitch black room, the ZT60 bested the VT50 by a large margin.

Plasma Buying Guide

The link gets blocked.
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post #637 of 1445 Old 01-25-2013, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

I think if you could clearly tell that the ZT was blacker than the VT, then this set is definitely hitting 9-9.5G kuro territory, possibly better- it's not like someone can easily eyeball .007 v. .008 ft/L, so this is telling me that there is a good chance it's a nice drop from the VT50 in mll and possibly the blackest plasma commerically released. The ring demo stuff is OLED now, so since that's being shown on the show floor at multiple locations, I could see how it's less impressive now.

OK, that's probably fair. I was busy that day and also with a friend so I didn't give it a ton of mental consideration. Let's say that "Kuro territory" is within range then.
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The Panasonic insider is hinting at the VT60 series being closer in line with what the mid-range GT50 series was going for last year, so that might $1000 price premium might be a little more forgiving.

Interesting, so maybe $3299 and $4299 for the MSRPs is what they are thinking. That actually wouldn't necessarily contradict what they told me, since they refused to be specific. I guess we'll know more soon enough. People like Value Elec and Cleveland Plasma tend to get info fairly soon, even if TVs are a few months out.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #638 of 1445 Old 01-25-2013, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubbleboyjones View Post

Kuro's can't be made now. They weren't profitable, they were super expensive and didn't meet current regs for energy. So yes, its going to take some time to reengineer things to get back to the "Kuro PQ" while maintaining reasonable prices for a recession and meeting energy regs. If Ferrari stop selling cars despite being better than the competition and Chevrolet buys the Ferrari patents, they still might need years to make the Corvette near the Ferrari performance while meeting regulations on emissions and having a price that supports its sale in a recession

I understand they were not profitable but look at the sharp elite's they are charging a hefty price for it and it has very low black levels but because it's an LED it has it's inherent drawbacks. The 9.5 G Kuro will be beat one day .
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post #639 of 1445 Old 01-25-2013, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by billmich View Post

Me wonders if the VT50 was fully calibrated to its peak performance

Then again, I'm a skeptic like that

Valid question, but I will say last year they compared the VT30 to VT50 black levels and there was a notable difference that translated to real world.

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post #640 of 1445 Old 01-25-2013, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Yeah, I think that's it. As we get closer, the margin seems less and less impressive. I don't want to give the impression that it wasn't good; the ZT60 is going to be very good. I just wasn't like, "OMG, this is freaking amazing."
So, I'll have to concur with AVForums here. It was a good demo. What it didn't have was the "wow" of that Kuro demo from back when. But that's probably because the baseline VT50 was so much better than what existed back in 2008? 2009? Whatever year that was.
Yes, gmarceau, I have a VT50. So 2x the Kuro black level, then. I suppose it's possible the ZT60 will in fact test at half that, though I question how anyone eyeballed that with any precision.

As for pricing, Panasonic seemed pretty adamant that $1000 or so over VT MSRP was where ZT was headed, which was intimated to mean $4500 MSRP. Of course, things can change, but that was the number I was left with after multiple conversations. Whenever I tried to suggest "maybe $4000?", I found myself being talked back up higher.

Rogo

Even if the ZT60 can meet Kuro blacks, isn't there still the issue that 2013 plasmas will have much more aggressive ABL circuits that 2008/2009 Kuros? Therefore, it can only be so good given current energy star requirements.

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post #641 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Rogo

Even if the ZT60 can meet Kuro blacks, isn't there still the issue that 2013 plasmas will have much more aggressive ABL circuits that 2008/2009 Kuros? Therefore, it can only be so good given current energy star requirements.

Panasonic VT50 plasmas do not meet Energy Star requirements, nor will the ZT60.

And from what I know, the VT50 calibrated at least matches the Kuro, doing 40+ ft/L...

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #642 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Panasonic VT50 plasmas do not meet Energy Star requirements, nor will the ZT60.

Makes me want to buy two...

Though I am an employee of Magnolia Home Theater, the views and opinions I express on this forum are those of my own and not my employer.
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post #643 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Panasonic VT50 plasmas do not meet Energy Star requirements, nor will the ZT60.

And from what I know, the VT50 calibrated at least matches the Kuro, doing 40+ ft/L...[/
quote]

The 9G's could comfortably go past 51 FTL.

Perhaps more if used with an external processor like a Lumagen radiance.

But why anyone needs that bright is beyond me. My KRP500 calibrated on ISF night is more than bright enough for 'normal' daylight viewing for me. If it gets too sunny i just close the blinds a bit. It's on approx 32ftl and that's enough for me imo.
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post #644 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by billmich View Post

Me wonders if the VT50 was fully calibrated to its peak performance

I wondered that myself. Why would they want the VT50 maxed out at full potential...That wouldnt make sense from a manufacturer pov. As there wouldn't be the "obvious" difference that we are lead to believe. Nor would that make business sense to anyone hoping it would indeed make a worthwhile 'upgrade' from a VT50

Then again, I'm a skeptic like that
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post #645 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 09:10 AM
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What's the consequences of an "energy star be damned" attitude?
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post #646 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 09:23 AM
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To me, in order for the blacks to be effectively infinite as claimed, less than 0.001 fl. is required. Beyond that, improvements won't have any discernable or viewable significance. It's my understanding the last generation KUROs achieved this. If the new ZT can as well that will be excellent. I guess we'll see.
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post #647 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 10:13 AM
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It means a higher electric bill. For someone like me (electricity rates vary widely) it would probably mean $150 in electric bills per year higher than if I had an LCD screen.
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post #648 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 10:21 AM
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Yes i thought the calibrated blacks of the last Kuro's were 0.0005 or 4, that sort of thing. So to be discernible in a batcave side by side realistically it will need to be basicaly 0mll. These Kuro's were literally 1 click down of the brightness, from being 0mll. The 0mll prototype wasn't that far off which is a shame. If that had made it to market then 0mll black would be old news by now incredibly. And all the other plasma makers would have had to up the game long before now from a consumer display perspective.

But i guess it's a moot point as it didn't happen. (But what might of been imho)
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post #649 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Yes i thought the calibrated blacks of the last Kuro's were 0.0005 or 4, that sort of thing. So to be discernible in a batcave side by side realistically it will need to be basicaly 0mll. These Kuro's were literally 1 click down of the brightness, from being 0mll. The 0mll prototype wasn't that far off which is a shame. If that had made it to market then 0mll black would be old news by now incredibly. And all the other plasma makers would have had to up the game long before now from a consumer display perspective.

But i guess it's a moot point as it didn't happen. (But what might of been imho)
lol

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post #650 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 02:09 PM
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The ZT60 and VT50 were both in Cinema mode. Its kind of interesting why that was done as the black level measures higher in Cinema mode on the VT50. I wonder why that was done??????
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Originally Posted by billmich View Post

Me wonders if the VT50 was fully calibrated to its peak performance

Then again, I'm a skeptic like that
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post #651 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 02:13 PM
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The ZT60 and VT50 were both in Cinema mode. Its kind of interesting why that was done as the black level measures higher in Cinema mode. I wonder why that was done??????

Since they were not calibrated, I wonder why not in THX ?

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post #652 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 03:20 PM
 
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The ZT60 and VT50 were both in Cinema mode. Its kind of interesting why that was done as the black level measures higher in Cinema mode on the VT50. I wonder why that was done??????
So is the ZT60 designed differently enough that you don't suspect a similar black level decrease when the ZT60 is calibrated or switched to another mode (like THX)? If not, it would seem to me that Panasonic was doing themselves a disservice by not putting the ZT60 in a separate mode. This is all just wild conjecture (on my part) right now since this is a different panel series altogether (ZT versus VT).
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The ZT60 and VT50 were both in Cinema mode. Its kind of interesting why that was done as the black level measures higher in Cinema mode on the VT50. I wonder why that was done??????
LOL, well we know that panny wants to make the ZT look better than the "old" VT. But, as I saw the ZT with my own eyes, it looked FABULOUS! Dare i say IMO better than the kuro. You CANT deny that.
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post #654 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 03:50 PM
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LOL, well we know that panny wants to make the ZT look better than the "old" VT. But, as I saw the ZT with my own eyes, it looked FABULOUS! Dare i say IMO better than the kuro. You CANT deny that.
I never said it did not look good now did I? I pointed out a flaw in the comparison which would make any visual interpretations skewed. Its science... which you cannot deny.
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post #655 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

So is the ZT60 designed differently enough that you don't suspect a similar black level decrease when the ZT60 is calibrated or switched to another mode (like THX)? If not, it would seem to me that Panasonic was doing themselves a disservice by not putting the ZT60 in a separate mode. This is all just wild conjecture (on my part) right now since this is a different panel series altogether (ZT versus VT).
The ZT60 does not act like the VT50 when in Cinema mode.
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post #656 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 04:01 PM
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I never said it did not look good now did I? I pointed out a flaw in the comparison which would make any visual interpretations skewed. Its science... which you cannot deny.
I totally agree. And Im sure the the new ZT was calibrated to make the VT look worse...its just marketing. But I was just pointing out how good the ZT looked. I think panny has a real winner.
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post #657 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 04:15 PM
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D-Nice, any speculation as to how much better the ZT60 will be over the VT50 when it's all said and done? A times I am a little tempted to upgrade from my 65ST30 to a 65VT50 which is going for a great price, but want to hold if the ZT60 it notably better.

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post #658 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 05:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The ZT60 does not act like the VT50 when in Cinema mode.
Thanks, I figured as much.
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post #659 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

D-Nice, any speculation as to how much better the ZT60 will be over the VT50 when it's all said and done? A times I am a little tempted to upgrade from my 65ST30 to a 65VT50 which is going for a great price, but want to hold if the ZT60 it notably better.
I would upgrade from a 65ST30 to 65ZT50 any day of the week.
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post #660 of 1445 Old 01-26-2013, 05:55 PM
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^^^

Nicely done D-Nice. One of the UK people who posts here made mention of the fact that reviewers in the UK could only achieve the deepest blacks with the VT 50 in THX mode and that the other modes didn’t reach that deep.

Speculation: could that be why the demo was done in Cinema instead of THX? Maybe there isn’t that much difference between the 2 in THX?
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