I'll Try Again - Why are Some 2011-2012 Panny Plasma's Having IR Problems and Other Not? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 79 Old 08-03-2012, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I guess this is a polically incorrect question, because my last attempt to get answers on this forum were deleted. I thought the idea here was to ask questions.

I've read the "Master Burn-in/IR" thread. After 127 pages, it doesn't answer my question. Also I'm not interested in Samsung and LG IR. The question - why are some people with 2011 and 2012 Panny Plasmas having persistent IR, and others not? Some say the IR lasts seconds at the most, some say months. That's a huge disparity.

If you buy a Panny plasma, can you tell right out of the box you will have IR problems, so you can return the set during the trial period?

If I leave an bright image on the screen for an hour, how long will it take for the IR to fade out on a good TV? Is it really down to seconds?

Let's hope I can get some answers this time.

Michael
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post #2 of 79 Old 08-03-2012, 11:42 PM
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You seem to think that you can gleem some knowledge on a forum where any idiot with a computer can give his "personal theories" on a subject. I would not doubt most of the problems are the owners who run tvs in torch mode cause it "looks cool" or see differences in screen tones with no signal being fed to the tv after they turn it on and before they turn on the dvr or pc. If you look at the Consumer Reports forums you see a typical letter that says "it's all over the forums" that such and such a tv does this or that and they must be the paid lackies of the mfg and should come clean. The answer is usually the same. They noticed the "problem" but "it is not apparent during normal viewing".

CR compiles data from TENS OF THOUSANDS of owners and reviewers generally put a tv through it's paces and compare findings based on standards. It all depends on what weight you place on that as opposed to some forum cowboy telling all about how he just bought and brought back his 5th tv.

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post #3 of 79 Old 08-05-2012, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't want to approach this in a negative tone.

Sometimes you can find patterns based on reports from other people. It could the build date, heat, brightness/contrast settings, etc. With some people reporting zero IR, there has to be a reason for that.

Michael
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post #4 of 79 Old 08-05-2012, 08:33 PM
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I think IR on these Panny 2012 sets is either a hit or miss. I purchased one of the last 42UT50's available on the market earlier this week, and I babied the hell out of it once I got it because I feared IR would plague my set. However, I started to care less about IR, and cared more about actually enjoying my damn set. I stated playing CoD for long sessions, going past even 5 hours at times, at an estimate. After that gaming session would be over, I'd plug in my USB stick with the Evangelo slides on them, pop it to the green slide, and I'd try to see if I had any IR from the constant HUD in the CoD games. Nothing at all was noticeable. This is when I realized I had gotten a strong set from Panasonic.

When I first had the set, in it's first fifty hours or so I messed up big time and fell asleep while watching a Netflix show. Woke up the next morning with heavy, persistent IR. I figured it was probably displayed for a good 8 hours, so what I did was played full screen content for double the amount of time the Netflix stuff was on it. It went away quickly.

The thing is with these 2012 Panny sets is, you don't know whether you got a good set or a bad set, which, IMO, is where Panasonic messes up. Yes, you can buy a set, see how persistent IR is, and then from there judge whether you'd like to return it or not, but estimating IR in the first 300 hours of a brand new set isn't accurate. You want to judge IR after the initial break in period, post 300 hours.

I'm lucky as hell that my set is persistent as it is, but I can't promise the same to others. If you do not want to baby your set, then I suggest staying away from the 2012 Panny Plasma's, because you truly do not know whether or not you have a strong set or a lemon.

I hope I was able to help.
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post #5 of 79 Old 08-05-2012, 08:58 PM
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People still worry about IR on plasmas??
I game all day long with no problems
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post #6 of 79 Old 08-06-2012, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2000 View Post

I don't want to approach this in a negative tone.
Sometimes you can find patterns based on reports from other people. It could the build date, heat, brightness/contrast settings, etc. With some people reporting zero IR, there has to be a reason for that.
Michael

I believe you posted for a reasonable "technical" solution to why some TVs have IR and some don't. I'll try to answer as a Panny "newbie" (5months) but a plasma long-time owner (a number of Pios) since they were first introduced (13+yrs)!.

Bought my first Panny plasma, 55GT30, in Mar of 2012. Aged it via the "slides" for 110hrs . . continuously. Then started watching "TV". Using the DEFAULT "Standard" setting, you couldn't experience IR since you can hardly see the panel's video. IMO, that's the key; if you use this setting or similar low intensity settings, you should never have IR. If you use the default "Vivid" setting, you will experience IR.

My settings were a happy medium between those two extremes and I did see some temporary IR due to watching ESPN, CNN, FBN and other "cable" news shows with banners. I did nothing to remove it other than continue to watch "TV".

Now with 800+ hrs, there's no IR whatsoever watching any TV show. I do not game! Hopefully that has answered your question.

Update: I see that M2000 started this thread NOT to find some reasonable technical causes to the IR problem but to offer some "physics-of-plasma" arguments that have nothing to do with HOW TO FIX or AVOID the problem from a USERs standpoint. This thread should be deleted!!!

Regards . . . Jim

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post #7 of 79 Old 08-06-2012, 12:31 AM
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Unfortunately I had a Panny 50ST and I played GT5 (in game mode on the ST50) on the PS3 for several hours and the tach and speedometer were still visible on the screen after playing for 2 hours. After watching TV several days later the IR of the tach and speedometer from GT5 was still visible. Interesting enough I replaced a Panny 1080i plasma with the 50ST I bought from Costco 6 years ago and I had IR in that set from GT5 but it would disappear after watching TV. I replaced the 50ST with with a LED and all is well. I wish I would have kept the 42" Panny but I wanted a bigger screen hence the reason I bought the 50ST. Even CNET is talking about the IR in the Panasonic plasma screens. I also own a Pioneer PRO-141FD in my main viewing room and I have had my PS3 and XBOX 360 hooked into it and it never had any issues with IR. I have owned numerous plasma panels and I have never ran the slides for 100 hours through them including my Pioneer PRO-141FD. I even contacted Panasonic and they stated that running any type of slides through their plasma panels is not required prior to viewing their TV's. I do not fault anyone that runs slides prior to calibrating their sets but I am from the camp that I should be able to use the set without any break in once I remove it from the box.
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post #8 of 79 Old 08-06-2012, 07:02 AM
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I have a ST30 now, I broke it in with slides for 100hrs, used D-Nice settings then tweaked as I needed. No granted I did leave it up a while but I do have Dark Souls HUD burned into my set. I have about 1,000 hours on it now total and the image is still there, can really tell when you see a light background. I hate it enough to replace the set soon. Will probably wait till 2013 models show up. Really gun shy on a plasma even though i have yet to see an LCD put out an acceptable image.
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post #9 of 79 Old 08-06-2012, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt66 View Post

Unfortunately I had a Panny 50ST and I played GT5 (in game mode on the ST50) on the PS3 for several hours and the tach and speedometer were still visible on the screen after playing for 2 hours. After watching TV several days later the IR of the tach and speedometer from GT5 was still visible. Interesting enough I replaced a Panny 1080i plasma with the 50ST I bought from Costco 6 years ago and I had IR in that set from GT5 but it would disappear after watching TV. I replaced the 50ST with with a LED and all is well. I wish I would have kept the 42" Panny but I wanted a bigger screen hence the reason I bought the 50ST. Even CNET is talking about the IR in the Panasonic plasma screens. I also own a Pioneer PRO-141FD in my main viewing room and I have had my PS3 and XBOX 360 hooked into it and it never had any issues with IR. I have owned numerous plasma panels and I have never ran the slides for 100 hours through them including my Pioneer PRO-141FD. I even contacted Panasonic and they stated that running any type of slides through their plasma panels is not required prior to viewing their TV's. I do not fault anyone that runs slides prior to calibrating their sets but I am from the camp that I should be able to use the set without any break in once I remove it from the box.

This is the main reason I haven't sold my Pioneer 6020 yet in favor of the 65VT50. I haven never had any IR at all when playing games or watching movies/tv. My kids play the Wii alot and I game from time to time on the PS3. I don't want to worry about IR. The Pioneer has spoiled me in this regard. I just can't understand how a tv made over 4 years later (compared to my Pioneer) still has issues with IR. What tech was Pioneer using? I thought Panasonic bought some of the Pioneer tech but maybe I read that wrong. If I didn't play games at all, I probably would have upgraded. I think I even have the red tint issue that many Kuro owners are seeing but still not sure if I want to upgrade (yes I like my kuro smile.gif).
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post #10 of 79 Old 08-06-2012, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YOTR View Post

This is the main reason I haven't sold my Pioneer 6020 yet in favor of the 65VT50..

I think Panasonic is losing a lot of sales due to IR. I ran into a couple of guys on the Sharp forum who said they would have bought VT50's instead of Sharps if it weren't for IR. I think that is just the tip of the iceberg. People aren't really happy with LED/LCD video quality, but they don't want to worry about their TVs either.

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post #11 of 79 Old 08-06-2012, 03:37 PM
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Don't play video games with the contrast so high. If you are going to use game mode (i always use cinema/pure/thx whatever), lower the contrast.

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post #12 of 79 Old 08-06-2012, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jbrady3324 View Post

Don't play video games with the contrast so high. If you are going to use game mode (i always use cinema/pure/thx whatever), lower the contrast.

Do you have any IR with those settings, and are you checking for it with a solid color slide?

Michael
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post #13 of 79 Old 08-07-2012, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2000 View Post

Do you have any IR with those settings, and are you checking for it with a solid color slide?
Michael

No IR (checked with slides) on my Pioneer Kuro or my VT50. I haven't gamed heavily on my VT50 but I did game heavily on my Kuro on a daily basis. Pixel Orbiter always turned on

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post #14 of 79 Old 08-07-2012, 10:43 AM
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What would you "check with a slide"??? AS with screens with no signal input, this is MEANINGLESS. You really should buy an LCD.
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post #15 of 79 Old 08-07-2012, 11:05 AM
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I will say this, if I could only see IR while looking at colored slides, I wouldn't worry about it. IR worries me regardless because as a current Kuro owner, I have never seen it. As long as you couldn't see it while watching content, I wouldn't have an issue.

If however IR is clearly visible from your viewing distance while watching content, then that is a big issue at least for me. My friends VT50 is distracting IR wise with content (we could definitely see it without going to the break in slides). I guess at the end of the day you have to decide what you can deal with. I know if I didn't have my Kuro, I would probably be looking at LCD hard despite it's shortcomings (probably the Elite but it's not perfect either and very expensive). I still think the VT50 is an amazing tv but IR is something to consider especially if you play games regularly or watch content alot with static logos on the screen (and don't mix it up with non logo content).
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post #16 of 79 Old 08-08-2012, 10:20 PM
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My .02, but I think it's because there are a couple different groups of people out there.

One group, which has a higher than normal representation on AVS, is very paranoid about every little facet of their TV. There is nothing wrong with this. It's a hobby like anything else and if you want to run break in slides and do perfect calibration and stare at empty displays to check for IR then that is fine.

The other group buys the TV, sets it up, and never stares at the screen again except from normal viewing distance. This is 99.5% of the general public. Short of permanent burn-in these folks will never care. They focus on things that are noticeable while using the TV. Ignorance is bliss, if you will.

Personally I'm somewhere in the middle. I'm inclined to be like the first group, but the problem with that is you are never happy, because every single piece of equipment these days has some sort of fault or another. If you let those things get to you, you never enjoy it, and that's a shame. It's the same kind of think as guys with really nice cars that never drive them because they might get a paint chip or door ding.

There's nothing wrong with it either way, but the two groups will never understand each other.
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post #17 of 79 Old 08-09-2012, 04:59 AM
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I'm on my first plasma after several LCDs, rear projections, etc. I've always loved the picture of plasmas, but have avoided them due to worries about IR. After purchasing my Panasonic UT50 three weeks ago, I worried about the proper way to "age" it and whatnot. However, a few days after getting it I decided to just go all out and set the picture the way I like it and stop babying it. I bumped the contrast up to 90 and left brightness around 50 to give the picture I prefer...and stopped hassling my wife about leaving it too long on certain channels with the symbols in the corner. I decided that with Best Buy's 30-day return policy, I'd watch the TV the way I will always watch it and see what happens. Well...so far I've had great luck, with no IR that I've been able to see. I figure I'm probably fairly representative of the average consumer in my watching habits. I've played some games (Gears of War and Uncharted 3), watched sports, left it on channels with symbols, etc. I've got a week left of putting it through its paces, but it's looking like I either lucked out or it's just a few lemons out there that are getting all the attention about IR.

My advice...Buy from a place that gives you a 30-day return/exchange policy like Best Buy, Amazon, etc...and just watch it like you normally would to see if there are any issues you can't live with.
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post #18 of 79 Old 08-09-2012, 06:36 AM
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Where can I check if I have the new panel? Someone wrote here that Pana made some changes around May to the panel technology. Or did I miss something?
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post #19 of 79 Old 08-09-2012, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slare View Post

My .02, but I think it's because there are a couple different groups of people out there.
One group, which has a higher than normal representation on AVS, is very paranoid about every little facet of their TV. There is nothing wrong with this. It's a hobby like anything else and if you want to run break in slides and do perfect calibration and stare at empty displays to check for IR then that is fine.
The other group buys the TV, sets it up, and never stares at the screen again except from normal viewing distance. This is 99.5% of the general public. Short of permanent burn-in these folks will never care. They focus on things that are noticeable while using the TV. Ignorance is bliss, if you will.
Personally I'm somewhere in the middle. I'm inclined to be like the first group, but the problem with that is you are never happy, because every single piece of equipment these days has some sort of fault or another. If you let those things get to you, you never enjoy it, and that's a shame. It's the same kind of think as guys with really nice cars that never drive them because they might get a paint chip or door ding.
There's nothing wrong with it either way, but the two groups will never understand each other.

Good observation.

Michael
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post #20 of 79 Old 08-10-2012, 10:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBoish View Post

I'm on my first plasma after several LCDs, rear projections, etc. I've always loved the picture of plasmas, but have avoided them due to worries about IR. After purchasing my Panasonic UT50 three weeks ago, I worried about the proper way to "age" it and whatnot. However, a few days after getting it I decided to just go all out and set the picture the way I like it and stop babying it. I bumped the contrast up to 90 and left brightness around 50 to give the picture I prefer...and stopped hassling my wife about leaving it too long on certain channels with the symbols in the corner. I decided that with Best Buy's 30-day return policy, I'd watch the TV the way I will always watch it and see what happens. Well...so far I've had great luck, with no IR that I've been able to see. I figure I'm probably fairly representative of the average consumer in my watching habits. I've played some games (Gears of War and Uncharted 3), watched sports, left it on channels with symbols, etc. I've got a week left of putting it through its paces, but it's looking like I either lucked out or it's just a few lemons out there that are getting all the attention about IR.
My advice...Buy from a place that gives you a 30-day return/exchange policy like Best Buy, Amazon, etc...and just watch it like you normally would to see if there are any issues you can't live with.

Very nice comment and observation. A lot has to do with viewing preferences, ambient room lighting, etc. Each technology has it's merits and foibles. Some notice image retention, others not.
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post #21 of 79 Old 08-10-2012, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBoish View Post

I'm on my first plasma after several LCDs, rear projections, etc. I've always loved the picture of plasmas, but have avoided them due to worries about IR. After purchasing my Panasonic UT50 three weeks ago, I worried about the proper way to "age" it and whatnot. However, a few days after getting it I decided to just go all out and set the picture the way I like it and stop babying it. I bumped the contrast up to 90 and left brightness around 50 to give the picture I prefer...and stopped hassling my wife about leaving it too long on certain channels with the symbols in the corner. I decided that with Best Buy's 30-day return policy, I'd watch the TV the way I will always watch it and see what happens. Well...so far I've had great luck, with no IR that I've been able to see. I figure I'm probably fairly representative of the average consumer in my watching habits. I've played some games (Gears of War and Uncharted 3), watched sports, left it on channels with symbols, etc. I've got a week left of putting it through its paces, but it's looking like I either lucked out or it's just a few lemons out there that are getting all the attention about IR.
My advice...Buy from a place that gives you a 30-day return/exchange policy like Best Buy, Amazon, etc...and just watch it like you normally would to see if there are any issues you can't live with.

Excellent advice. If it meets the needs when used as intended, then you've got a winner.

Michael
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post #22 of 79 Old 08-12-2012, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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More information on IR from the VT50 thread:


Forget the confusing terminology that is constantly interchanged and mixed up. Here is the scientific info you can trust:

Burn-In, Image retention, image sticking, image ghosting, residual image....etc are all terminology that is constanly interchanged even though there are several mechanisms involved.

Here is a list of the actual mechanisms that I know of in order of probability (most probable first)

1 - phosphorescence - there is a long afterglow component of phosphors that can be seen even when the display is off. It is very very faint however and eventually dissipates.

2 - Residual charge - Plasma displays use dielectric charges to control the on or off states of the pixel. If there is a slight residual charge left when the pixel is turned off the next time it turns on the pixel will be slightly brighter than normal. This will show up as a ghost image on a dark screen. You can tell it is residual charge because the ghost image is slightly brighter than the dark background. This ghost image is transient and easily removed by either a full white screen or watching full screen material for a few hours.

3 - MgO Sputtering - High energy discharge in Plasma displays causes Magnesium Oxide to sputter and deposit onto the phosphor and adjacent pixels. The result is a long lasting ghost image that can take many days to remove. It can be seen as a slightly darker image on a full white screen. Ironically, a full white screen for many hours is the best course of action to resolve this issue as it normalized the deposition of MgO to all pixels (evens it out)

4 - Phosphor aging - Permanent aging of the phosphor material that causes a slightly darker ghost image that is irreversible.

Finally, the screen wipe feature is not useless and will not aggressively "age" your display. It is there to normalize wall charge and MgO deposition (see why above). Remember, plasma displays use dynamic brightness control, so a full white screen or a scrolling white bar should not aggressively age your display.


Michael
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post #23 of 79 Old 08-12-2012, 12:22 PM
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It's my honest opinion that if people aren't seeing IR it's because they're not looking for it. I have an ST50, and IR doesn't last as long as it initially did (I've had my set since March) but it still happens. If I watch a show with a logo for an hour or so, I will get IR but I do need to look for it. I had been watching the Olympics though around 3 - 4 hours a day, and had a really bad case of IR with the NBC Olympic logo. It was very visible while watching other regular content. I went for about two days without watching the Olympics and it faded somewhat but it is still noticeable. It is gradually fading but not as fast as I had hoped. I plan on watching the closing ceremonies tonight so I guess it will be several days before the logo is completely gone.
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post #24 of 79 Old 08-12-2012, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svgtom View Post

It's my honest opinion that if people aren't seeing IR it's because they're not looking for it. I have an ST50, and IR doesn't last as long as it initially did (I've had my set since March) but it still happens. If I watch a show with a logo for an hour or so, I will get IR but I do need to look for it. I had been watching the Olympics though around 3 - 4 hours a day, and had a really bad case of IR with the NBC Olympic logo. It was very visible while watching other regular content. I went for about two days without watching the Olympics and it faded somewhat but it is still noticeable. It is gradually fading but not as fast as I had hoped. I plan on watching the closing ceremonies tonight so I guess it will be several days before the logo is completely gone.

I watch the olympics 4-6 hours during the day and 3-4 hours at night, every day. No issues at all and I look for it during other content, slides, and white bar scroller. I have around 200 hours on the set.

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post #25 of 79 Old 08-12-2012, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrady3324 View Post

I watch the olympics 4-6 hours during the day and 3-4 hours at night, every day. No issues at all and I look for it during other content, slides, and white bar scroller. I have around 200 hours on the set.

That's impressive. What model do you have, and what's your build date? What brightness and contrast?

Michael
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post #26 of 79 Old 08-12-2012, 07:46 PM
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That's impressive. What model do you have, and what's your build date? What brightness and contrast?
Michael

65VT50, May 2012 (build date). 100% THX Brightroom (contrast at 84, brightness at 50)

It might just be luck of the draw, but I have never had any issues with my Pioneer Kuro either. My Kuro went through heavy gaming (4-8 hour sessions). I just make sure to switch up the content I view.

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65VT50, May 2012 (build date). 100% THX Brightroom (contrast at 84, brightness at 50)
It might just be luck of the draw, but I have never had any issues with my Pioneer Kuro either. My Kuro went through heavy gaming (4-8 hour sessions). I just make sure to switch up the content I view.

I have had a few Kuros, all the way back to the 4280/5080 days. The main reason I purchased the Kuro was because of the lack of IR (even more so than the black levels). I have never seen IR on any Kuro I owned. If I missed it somehow, it must have disappeared within a few seconds. I have left stuff paused for hours with static images without any IR at all (and I was looking for it ). That to me alone was worth the premium for the Kuro (along with the black levels).

I still might give the 65VT50 a try but I am very concerned about recent IR posts. My friend has this set and he definitely has IR issues with it. I am even thinking about buying a cheap 40" LCD so at least I have someting to watch if I sell my Kuro (I would eventually move it to the playroom for the kids). I will probably take the deal on my kuro but may see how technology plays out over the next six months before making a purchase. I just don't understand why certain Panasonic users are reporting no IR while others are clearly seeing it. Maybe there is a QC issue with the panels?
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I have had a few Kuros, all the way back to the 4280/5080 days. The main reason I purchased the Kuro was because of the lack of IR (even more so than the black levels). I have never seen IR on any Kuro I owned. If I missed it somehow, it must have disappeared within a few seconds. I have left stuff paused for hours with static images without any IR at all (and I was looking for it ). That to me alone was worth the premium for the Kuro (along with the black levels).
I still might give the 65VT50 a try but I am very concerned about recent IR posts. My friend has this set and he definitely has IR issues with it. I am even thinking about buying a cheap 40" LCD so at least I have someting to watch if I sell my Kuro (I would eventually move it to the playroom for the kids). I will probably take the deal on my kuro but may see how technology plays out over the next six months before making a purchase. I just don't understand why certain Panasonic users are reporting no IR while others are clearly seeing it. Maybe there is a QC issue with the panels?

I too wonder about QC issues. Panasonic is having some tough times so that is very possible.

One thing I have noticed between the Kuro and Panny is the amount of shifting going on with the Pixel shifter. I could be wrong, but it definitely appears that the Kuro is doing a lot more shifting than the Panny. For example, when you hit menu on your Kuro and go into the picture settings, you can see the screen shift back to normal. This isn't as noticeable with the Panny. So without a doubt, I definitely believe the Kuro is better at handling IR

It is also hard to judge IR based on forum posts. Tough to tell if these users are trolls, left their TV on overnight by mistake and now are in denial, are reporting IR prematurely, their set hasn't aged enough, or are using high contrast modes. The amount of people reporting IR is very slim when thinking of how many of these TVs are in consumers hands and I have yet to see a reputable person report IR. Obviously you know how to handle a plasma, so I wouldn't shy away from buying the 65VT50 if I were you.

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I too wonder about QC issues. Panasonic is having some tough times so that is very possible.
One thing I have noticed between the Kuro and Panny is the amount of shifting going on with the Pixel shifter. I could be wrong, but it definitely appears that the Kuro is doing a lot more shifting than the Panny. For example, when you hit menu on your Kuro and go into the picture settings, you can see the screen shift back to normal. This isn't as noticeable with the Panny. So without a doubt, I definitely believe the Kuro is better at handling IR
It is also hard to judge IR based on forum posts. Tough to tell if these users are trolls, left their TV on overnight by mistake and now are in denial, are reporting IR prematurely, their set hasn't aged enough, or are using high contrast modes. The amount of people reporting IR is very slim when thinking of how many of these TVs are in consumers hands and I have yet to see a reputable person report IR. Obviously you know how to handle a plasma, so I wouldn't shy away from buying the 65VT50 if I were you.

I love the image on the 65VT50 and honestly I don't want to go down the Sharp Elite route because of the cost and possible viewing angle issues. My friend definitely has IR issues on his 65VT50 after just playing a game for a few minutes. You can still see the HUD on the screen for a few hours afterwards (sometimes it's taken days depending on how long he played). It isn't horrible but you can pick it up on on content without looking to hard. My kids game and I watch a ton of football so I am concerned static image wise.

I definitely am a veteran when it comes to plasma's but then again I have only had Pioneer. It's the one brand that didn't exhibit the chief concern by most people when purchasing a plasma, image retention (which is why I personally payed the premium for the Kuro). So if I do upgrade, this will be the first plasma I have owned that will exhibit IR.

I agree avs is just a small sample of the people that own these sets though. I love the Sharp Elite (and it would cure my IR worries) but every time I look at the price, I get sick frown.gif. It's way to hard to justify the price.
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I posted this a few days pack in the VT50 settings thread:
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In other news with all the IR talk I figured I would work a little harder to find some since I've been logging a lot of hours playing MW3. Well it was a job but I did find some when watching Birds from BBC Life during some panning scenes with the light blue sky. I was not able to see it in a variety of other discs and content I tested. I then tried watching some panning scenes from Up and was just barely able to see it. So I ran the pixel flipper from the WOW disc all night and then today I did the same but ran the scrolling bar several times in between. By 5pm it was all but gone, I could kinda see a hint but it was very very hard to tell. When I tried to point it out to others no one could see what I was talking about.

I think what I thought with my last plasma, IR is not a myth but it is pretty hard to establish and near impossible see unless I dissect the hell out of my panel with a variety of content and the objective of finding it. I don't doubt others have real issues or that the severity varies from panel to panel but to my eyes it is a non issue and does wash with either the tv's tools or simple and regular content variation.

As much as I struggled with the decision between the VT50 and 70" Elite I am 100% happy with my decision and would buy the VT50 again. Don't get me wrong, the Elite is a damn nice panel but for me I know I would have really been bothered by the flaws I observed in the store tests I did given the hefty price tag. The colors and motion on the VT50 were probably the biggest win factors for me and I am constantly telling Mrs. Kenobi how impressed and pleased I am with this panel. No it's not perfect but IMO there is nothing better in current production.


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