Burn-in is not a thing of the past! Not for Panasonic PDP! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 117 Old 09-25-2012, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I am looking at the LCDs that I can get but I still could not find a decent replacement. The price difference is huge and I just cannot justify going back to 55". I really want to think that my issue was an isolated one.
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post #92 of 117 Old 09-25-2012, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

Perhaps not, but in the 7 years I've been here I have seen a few mentions of IR and Burn-in but nothing compared to the 2012 models. I know that you are not alone but there are two separate threads devoted to the issue. Naturally I cannot prove or disprove their statements but my question was asked assuming that they are not all lying. I specifically aimed my question your way because I consider you to be the most knowledgeable regarding Panasonic TV's. If you say that Panasonic does not consider IR or burn-in more unusual in the 2012 models than that's good enough for me. Because of your inside knowledge with Panasonic I know that you would be aware of any inherent concerns.

Andy, I'm not speaking for Panasonic in this case and I didn't go to CEDIA so I didn't even get a chance to ask across a sub-segment of industry folk.

I will say this: I have heard nothing from any sources anywhere about a growing problem in 2012. It's pretty clear from here that some people do, in fact, have some kind of problem. It's not at all clear to me that there's a defect rate causing it, user behavior causing it, or any combination thereof. I simply can't say because I simply don't know.

What I do know is that I'm watching 2:35:1, 4:3, running menus from the Viera stuff, PS3, Xbox 360, Apple TV, the TV menus, DirecTV DVR, and not ever seeing anything even retained briefly. I'm sometimes leaving the guide up for many minutes to chat with my wife, help cook dinner, be generally neglectful. I hit pause a lot on the DVR and the screen saver doesn't kick in very quickly. We've been enjoying HBO GO all summer and those menus tend to linger for a while since the UI is slow to deal with on Xbox, it's fun to play with Kinect, etc. etc. Still nothing.

I checked around some with guys I know in retail and they have nothing to report by way of unusual amounts of image retention. I checked the demo units at my local stores and they resemble mine.

When people start tossing around allegations of burn-in, my ears immediately perk up. I find those claims beyond absurd given modern panel life. You'd have to do some serious work to get a permanent image burn. I think Michael 2000 does a good job of describing some of these things as "stubborn image retention". Now, why are some people seeing this and many of us are not seeing even the vaguest hint of image retention at all? That's a good question. A lot of these reports come without mention of settings or do mention tweaking things in ways I'd call a bit odd. I run out of the box THX Cinema and THX Bright Room until my winter-time calibration. A lot of these reports mention menu items being burned in, which makes me wonder just how long those menus were up. Was it overnight and we're just not being given the truth? Because, well, perhaps, that could take weeks to work itself out. I'm not saying it should, but perhaps it does.

I can unequivocally say that I run things like the DirecTV DVR guide for many minutes a day right now (DVR programming for the fall season coupled with a DVR replacement due to DirecTV issues) and can never detect any evidence of any part of it being retained. It's the "menu" I run the most and it runs every day. I therefore find the idea of a design flaw easy to rule out. I find the chance of a defect rate unlikely but plausible. It would be helpful to fully understand the user behavior, however, before drawing any conclusions. I also will wonder "aloud" here whether white screens are really the best bet to clear up any of these "stubborn" problems. Maybe running regular content that causes all the pixels to cycle randomly is a better bet?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #93 of 117 Old 09-26-2012, 10:38 AM
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Thank you for you in depth response. I hope everybody around here reads it. Between you and Michael2000 I feel very comfortable recommending the Panasonic 50 series to anybody.
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post #94 of 117 Old 09-26-2012, 11:30 AM
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Why does anybody in his right mind think they can glean any kind of insight on ANYTHING from a forum? And if they "discover" something find it more reliable than testing labs, engineers and industry publications. Forums are just like the population in general: 80% clueless who "invent" data based on things they "think" are related. You don't get any info from somebody whose knowledge stems from the last ad or infommercial he saw. If I go to buy something I read industry press, test reports and repair statistics analysis. I really don't care if somebody's Uncle Louie had a Panasonic go bad and he ran out and bought an LG. The Panasonic is rated much higher and has 1/3 the defect rate of LG. I buy the Panasonic.

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post #95 of 117 Old 09-26-2012, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adone36 View Post

Why does anybody in his right mind think they can glean any kind of insight on ANYTHING from a forum? And if they "discover" something find it more reliable than testing labs, engineers and industry publications. Forums are just like the population in general: 80% clueless who "invent" data based on things they "think" are related. You don't get any info from somebody whose knowledge stems from the last ad or infommercial he saw. If I go to buy something I read industry press, test reports and repair statistics analysis. I really don't care if somebody's Uncle Louie had a Panasonic go bad and he ran out and bought an LG. The Panasonic is rated much higher and has 1/3 the defect rate of LG. I buy the Panasonic.

Many reasons to pay attention to forum members. You just have to have enough common sense to pay attention to those that obviously speak from a position of knowledge and experience. Pick and choose who you feel confident in. Industry reports offer some value. Test reports generally do not include long term viability. Repair statistics generally would not mention burn-in because that is not covered by warranty and thus not included in a manufactures list of repair incidence. As you mentioned, 80% clueless. You just need to wade through that 80% and find the best 5% or so. I agree, buy Panasonic. I agree because of forum members like Rogo, Micheal2000, D-Nice, Chad B, Randy Walters, and several more that don't come to mind right now. I would certainly be very leery of trusting a sales person or even my own eyes in a showroom environment.
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post #96 of 117 Old 09-26-2012, 08:40 PM
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This salesperson comes here to learn about problems with certain models so as to better advise customers and also to share with forum members about different characteristics I've observed on the sets I sell. In a showroom you're not going to see a lot of the negative characteristics of some models because the don't show up in brightly lit rooms with typical store feeds. I didn't know about flashlighting and clouding until reading about it here because the sets are just not displaying the kind of content that shows it. Likewise someone who has not shopped tvs in a long time and asks questions here may be unaware of the lack of analog audio outputs and legacy analog inputs on many current set vs those from only a couple of years ago.

There are a lot of axe-grinders and fanboys infesting sites like this, one has to learn to filter them out.

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post #97 of 117 Old 09-28-2012, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

...
What I do know is that I'm watching 2:35:1, 4:3, running menus from the Viera stuff, PS3, Xbox 360, Apple TV, the TV menus, DirecTV DVR, and not ever seeing anything even retained briefly. I'm sometimes leaving the guide up for many minutes to chat with my wife, help cook dinner, be generally neglectful. I hit pause a lot on the DVR and the screen saver doesn't kick in very quickly. We've been enjoying HBO GO all summer and those menus tend to linger for a while since the UI is slow to deal with on Xbox, it's fun to play with Kinect, etc. etc. Still nothing.
...
It would be helpful to fully understand the user behavior, however, before drawing any conclusions. I also will wonder "aloud" here whether white screens are really the best bet to clear up any of these "stubborn" problems. Maybe running regular content that causes all the pixels to cycle randomly is a better bet?

Despite pledging to ignore IR and not worry about it, I still get it, and it still annoys me. For the record, I have over 360 hours on the panel. I've been running Custom settings for normal TV watching with Contrast=80, Brightness=50-52, Sharpness=14-17, Color=46, and pixel orbiter enabled. I don't think anyone can call this "torch mode".

I can watch a movie (in THX Cinema mode) and get no IR, and no evidence of letterbox lines. I can use the DirecTV Guide and experience no IR. I used the Disney WoW disk to set brightness and contrast, and there was no IR from the vertical bar patterns. I watched a NASCAR race on ESPN for an hour or two, and there was no ESPN logo on my screen. There was no SNY logo in the upper right of my screen after watching a Mets game. BUT I can bring up the TV Menu for a minute and the word "Menu" is imprinted on screen for days. One 3-hour Yankee game and the score box and logo can remain for a week despite constant efforts to remove it. It makes me wonder if, besides panel-to-panel variation, there may be differences in IR susceptibility in different areas of a single panel. I'm currently displaying a full white screen from the Service Menu, and the top left part of the screen - where "Menu" and the score boxes appear - looks less perfectly uniform than the rest of the screen. All IR is gone at the moment, yet that area looks just a little different.

I also wonder if a bright white screen is the best way to remove IR, as opposed to moving content. I can tell you, however, that the white screen DID eventually remove all the IR after several days, while 12+ hours of the WoW pixel flipper did nothing to it.
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post #98 of 117 Old 10-01-2012, 11:10 AM
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I received my 55VT50 this past Tuesday and ran break-in slides for 100 hours. On Sunday, I watched a baseball game on my RSN, then an NFL game on Fox, then NFL on NBC. Just for grins, I ran the break-in slides, and was surprised to see some IR.

The "GB" and "NO" team names from the score box and "NFL on Fox" from the ticker were visible on some slides, and the stylized "NY" from the Giants logo from the NBC score bar was more obvious. Nothing was visible from the baseball game. After one pass of the slides (about 8 minutes), nothing was left from the Fox NFL, but I could still see the "NY". I stopped the slides and switched to live TV and changed channels a few times looking for the "NY" since I knew exactly where it was. It was never visible. I put the slides back up, and the "NY" was still there, but already less obvious.

Note that all of this "visible on slides" IR was from source images where bright white pixels that were surrounded by darker pixels, and showed on the slides as darker than the rest of the slide. So, this is obviously just localized uneven pixel wear, and seems to quickly fade with normal use (as evidenced by no image from the baseball game score box after 6 hours of other content). I expect that as the large (relatively) initial brightness drop levels out to the long-term gradual decline, this sort of IR will be even harder to spot on slides. Also, all of my IR required essentially hours of the the same image to be visible at all. A few minutes of menu or pause isn't enough (at least on my display).

One other piece of evidence for my conclusion is that when running the slides, the first day or so I noticed that they weren't displayed uniformly, with dither-like effects showing, but which now appear to really be lack of initial uniformity of pixel brightness from the factory. By the end of the 100 hours, every slide was smooth and uniform.

The TL;DR version: I'm not going to worry about IR under normal use, but people who like 12-hour gaming sessions might want to think about adjusting settings to reduce the effects.
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post #99 of 117 Old 05-11-2013, 08:52 PM
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I know this is an old thread but hopefully someone will check-in and can give me some advice. I have had a 2011 Panasonic VT65 and I used it to play COD 3 and stream movies throught Vudu and Netflix. I noticed about six months after owning the Plasma two small black lines running horizontally parrallel about 8 to 10 inches wide, give or take on the bottom left corner when watching movies etc. After I noticed the black lines, I started noticing soon after more similar slightly dark images running across the screen "like a striped shirt" where the stripes are about 1.5 inches in height and horizontal. I contacted Panasonic and they sent a technician down and they noticed it looks like a burn in possibly of my menu screen. So they ran the image retention scrolling bar overnight and asked me to see if that fixes the problem. It did not so the tech contacted Panasonic and received an authorization to replace my TV with a brand new 2012 VT65 which was nice. They decided my board must have been bad. I eventually decided to sell my Panasonic VT65 since I was not using as much as I used to then decided to purchase another Panasonic Plasma but this time a less expensive model at Sam's Club. I have owned it now for about 4 months and I am starting to see the exact same issues! I am very puzzled. I do not see anything I play or watch that would be on long enough to cause any burn in or image retention. Any advice on what you think might be going on and what to do next?

Thank you
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post #100 of 117 Old 05-11-2013, 09:41 PM
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Do the lines actually match up with anything you're putting to the tv? If it does then it could be IR. A lot of people are having really good results with the Pixel Flipper on the Disney WOW disc. Maybe you could give it a try?

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post #101 of 117 Old 05-11-2013, 09:45 PM
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Thanks for the prompt reply. No I don't ser anything that matches up. I'm watching a movie right now and I am seeing horizontal bars that are faint light and dark but depending on the image displayed. So difficult to explain
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post #102 of 117 Old 05-21-2013, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrady3324 View Post

Most of the IR reports are from brand new or relatively new posters.

I am beginning to wonder:

1. Are we getting the full truth/story?
2. Are they over reacting?
3. Is there bad quality control at Panasonic?

My money is on a combination of 1 and 2 with a few extreme cases falling into the category of 3

There should be a sticky thread in this forum that states the purpose of Break-in Slides. Most newcomers think it is meant to help reduce the chance of getting IR which isn't entirely true. I, for one, never use break-in slides. I buy a TV to watch it and that is exactly what I do, but I do baby it for the first 100 hours or so (mixed content, avoid logos for extended periods of time)

Thats BS the average consumer should not have to deal with this. If the panny phosphors are so sensitive to burn in during their beginning life then manybe panasonic should preage the tv before sending it out to people.
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post #103 of 117 Old 05-21-2013, 07:47 PM
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I would like to say one thing and one thing only: You do not have to abuse a plasma tv to get burn in I.e. iR
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post #104 of 117 Old 05-22-2013, 01:56 AM
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I would like to say one thing and one thing only: Burn in and image retention are not the same thing, even though you think they are.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #105 of 117 Old 05-22-2013, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I would like to say one thing and one thing only: Burn in and image retention are not the same thing, even though you think they are.
IR can be considered burn in until it disappears from your screen. One never knows when and if it will go away until it actually does. When it does, you can call it IR. As long as it sticks around, people can call it burn in. See that they are inter-changeable.
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post #106 of 117 Old 05-22-2013, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

IR can be considered burn in until it disappears from your screen. One never knows when and if it will go away until it actually does. When it does, you can call it IR. As long as it sticks around, people can call it burn in. See that they are inter-changeable.

So heartburn can be called a heart condition, too, then?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #107 of 117 Old 05-22-2013, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

So heartburn can be called a heart condition, too, then?
Do you have a way to tell if it is something is burn in or IR before it goes away? You don't, so until it disappears you need treat it is a heart condition.

Also, if something retains for 6 months or a year, just because it goes away does that mean it is not a problem? If you get heart burn on a daily basis 5-10x a day, is that a good thing?

Anyway, the point I was trying to make was there is no way to know if something is just IR until it goes away. There is no device out there that will tell you if it will disappear so until it disappears you do not know what it is.
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post #108 of 117 Old 05-22-2013, 03:01 PM
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Your point remains mostly invalid except for the part where you talk about something that has persisted for 6 months.

I'd certainly agree that anything that has been stuck on your TV for 6 months is burned in. I find it unlikely one will be able to achieve that with normal viewing although we have seen at AVS there are "single channel" viewers who really, really love one channel a lot. Effectively, whether they have developed a reversible condition on their TVs or not, it's fair to call that burn in.

As for my heartburn analogy, thanks for making my point even without realizing it.

Heartburn can be a problem, but it's never a heart condition, even if you get it every single day. It's a stomach / esophagus problem.

So if someone plays Call of Duty 6 hours each day and sees the HUD for the next hour or three watching TV but the HUD always disappears, that might well be a problem big enough to cause them to not buy a plasma ever again. But it's still not burn in. Never was and never will be.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #109 of 117 Old 05-22-2013, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Your point remains mostly invalid except for the part where you talk about something that has persisted for 6 months.

I'd certainly agree that anything that has been stuck on your TV for 6 months is burned in. I find it unlikely one will be able to achieve that with normal viewing although we have seen at AVS there are "single channel" viewers who really, really love one channel a lot. Effectively, whether they have developed a reversible condition on their TVs or not, it's fair to call that burn in.

As for my heartburn analogy, thanks for making my point even without realizing it.

Heartburn can be a problem, but it's never a heart condition, even if you get it every single day. It's a stomach / esophagus problem.

So if someone plays Call of Duty 6 hours each day and sees the HUD for the next hour or three watching TV but the HUD always disappears, that might well be a problem big enough to cause them to not buy a plasma ever again. But it's still not burn in. Never was and never will be.
Again, you don't know if it is just IR until it goes away. So everything on your TV is IR until it decides to stay. The thing is you will never know until it happens. And even if it is just IR, doesn't change the fact it is extremely annoying.

I was actually surprised to see IR on my ST60 that lasted for more then a day before I was able to get rid of it. My 5 year old Insignia gets rid of IR quicker.
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post #110 of 117 Old 05-23-2013, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

Again, you don't know if it is just IR until it goes away. So everything on your TV is IR until it decides to stay. The thing is you will never know until it happens. And even if it is just IR, doesn't change the fact it is extremely annoying.

This is getting ridiculous... Yes, it's annoying. We agree. The odds of something permanent happening are so low that they are not worthy of serious consideration. It'd like not living in a place with thunderstorms because of the possibility of getting hit by lightning.
Quote:
I was actually surprised to see IR on my ST60 that lasted for more then a day before I was able to get rid of it. My 5 year old Insignia gets rid of IR quicker.

I believe you. I cannot cause image retention on my VT50, however. It happened once in my ownership and that was during calibration (which, as I now understand it causes a big jump in some internal settings once the service menu is accessed). It lasted about 30-45 minutes for me... I have been unable -- despite trying -- to get an image to stick before or since. I gave up after several specific attempts.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #111 of 117 Old 06-22-2013, 01:03 AM
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ID logo. me too. im on my second st60, i returned the first one. what to do? I followed all precautions
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post #112 of 117 Old 06-22-2013, 08:16 AM
 
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Burn-in and IR have never been eliminated. That was always propaganda and brainwashing by PDP manufacturers. I have been saying that for years around this forum.
Here is my advice to PDP shoppers regarding burn-in, the day you see the Master Burn-In thread removed from the Forum, then you know that burn-in is truly a thing of the past.
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post #113 of 117 Old 06-22-2013, 08:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Kennedy View Post

ID logo. me too. im on my second st60, i returned the first one. what to do? I followed all precautions

You might want to consider a Samsung PDP or a LED.
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post #114 of 117 Old 06-22-2013, 08:39 AM
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The first st-60 had the ID logo and the E! channel bugs. both from watching for less than 1 hour. I tried everything to get rid of it. Slides. Static etc. Had to return it.
The second one i "broke in" for 200 hrs. Slides static zoom and never watching a station with a LOGO. It is a gorgeous picture. I then calibrated it and was astonished at how great the picture was. I then decided I could watch regular tv. I watched the ID network for one hour. JUst to be sure I ran the slides and voila there was the logo. Faint and gray. but its still there 2 weeks later. I do not think its IR, its burn in. I now have passed my best buy 2 week return policy. Im going to just have to pretend its not there ( you cant see it while watching TV) just under the microscope, but i know its there. Im hoping it will go away at some point.
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post #115 of 117 Old 06-22-2013, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Kennedy View Post

The first st-60 had the ID logo and the E! channel bugs. both from watching for less than 1 hour. I tried everything to get rid of it. Slides. Static etc. Had to return it.
The second one i "broke in" for 200 hrs. Slides static zoom and never watching a station with a LOGO. It is a gorgeous picture. I then calibrated it and was astonished at how great the picture was. I then decided I could watch regular tv. I watched the ID network for one hour. JUst to be sure I ran the slides and voila there was the logo. Faint and gray. but its still there 2 weeks later. I do not think its IR, its burn in. I now have passed my best buy 2 week return policy. Im going to just have to pretend its not there ( you cant see it while watching TV) just under the microscope, but i know its there. Im hoping it will go away at some point.
I do believe you have 30 days to add BB's extended warranty. You might want to think about picking up the 2 year which will cover burn in so if it does not disappear you will at least be covered. Or if it does dissapear this time, you won't have to worry as much with what you watch as you will be covered for at least 2 years : )
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post #116 of 117 Old 06-22-2013, 08:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Dirk Kennedy View Post

The first st-60 had the ID logo and the E! channel bugs. both from watching for less than 1 hour. I tried everything to get rid of it. Slides. Static etc. Had to return it.
The second one i "broke in" for 200 hrs. Slides static zoom and never watching a station with a LOGO. It is a gorgeous picture. I then calibrated it and was astonished at how great the picture was. I then decided I could watch regular tv. I watched the ID network for one hour. JUst to be sure I ran the slides and voila there was the logo. Faint and gray. but its still there 2 weeks later. I do not think its IR, its burn in. I now have passed my best buy 2 week return policy. Im going to just have to pretend its not there ( you cant see it while watching TV) just under the microscope, but i know its there. Im hoping it will go away at some point.

What of travesty!! Fortunately for me I've never experienced burn-in on any of my PDP or CRT's from the past, however I had to baby the heck of them. Quite honestly, people shouldn't have to do that when they buy a TV, I don't care how good the PQ is. Why should anyone wait 300 hours to watch a NFL game after they have spent thousands of dollars and then have run those stupid slides, that's silly to me. That's why LCD, for better or worse, have greatly surpassed PDP in the market.

If Panasonic doesn't want to stand by their products by not covering a burn-in in the warranty, there is something that to get them to change their ways, its called a class-action lawsuit. If enough customers who have been burned (no-pun intended) got together and sued them, they might be encouraged to stop their anti-consumer policy of intentionally manufacturing displays that are more susceptible to burn-in/IR and then leaving the customer out try dry when their display get burn-in.
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post #117 of 117 Old 06-22-2013, 09:31 AM
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Burn-in and IR have never been eliminated. That was always propaganda and brainwashing by PDP manufacturers. I have been saying that for years around this forum.
Here is my advice to PDP shoppers regarding burn-in, the day you see the Master Burn-In thread removed from the Forum, then you know that burn-in is truly a thing of the past.

+1 If Burn-in were a 'thing of the past' then it would be covered under the MFG warranty.

If i recall correctly, Cnet ran a burn-in torture test last year after a blu-ray player froze overnight causing image retention they could not remedy. Formal testing results showed Samsung to be the best option for those concerned with IR; however, considering the tremendous change in their panel for F8500, i'd be cautious expecting the same burn/IR resistance to 2013 models without another round of testing.

I'm guessing MFG's frown on this, but i'd certainly appreciate annual testing.
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