Gaming Plasma (Fighting Games) - MVC2, UMVC3, SF4 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 78 Old 09-07-2012, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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So I been looking for the last few weeks and I'm trying to find a TV to replace my 2 Asus VH238H monitors that i currently use for gaming. I was first convinced with the Panasonic ST50 but then read that the input lag on this set is around the 40's. Plasma or LED is fine with me as long i get something with low input pag. Would be great to hear from someone who has the ST50 or similiar models. I don't care about manufacture.

Size - 42" - 50"
Manufactures: Any
Location: US
Price Range: Any

I read on other AVS post that you can either get a one or the other. TV with low input lag, or a TV with good picture quality and high input lag. My TV is going to be used 80% gaming, 20% movies. Input lag is more important to me than picture quality.

Also, if i wanted to test a TV for input lag, which is the new method being used thats trusted more now? I have read about 3 different testing tools.

If ya can, please post current model, size, input lag numbers or comments on lag, type of TV, and any other comments.

Model:
Size:
Input lag:
Plasma or LED:
Comments:


Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 78 Old 09-07-2012, 10:48 AM
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The E series Samsung plasma's when you change the HDMI input lable to 'PC'
you get 16ms lag time. It does lock out color adjustments, etc.
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post #3 of 78 Old 09-07-2012, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi - Do you currently own one if these E-Series models? What's the model number? Can it be any screen size or is it one specific?

Thanks for your help.
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post #4 of 78 Old 09-07-2012, 07:16 PM
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It's really a tough decision and honestly, from all the results lately, i can only suggest one thing. If you are able to, see if you can test them yourself.
As I was also looking for a TV to replace my 22" monitor which i use for gaming (fighting games also), my choices was either the E550 Samsung, or UT50 Panasonic. These Panasonics were being tested as 16ms of lag, till they got reviewed using the new LagTester device, in which they hit over 40ms. As far as the Samsungs are concerned, the results currently available for them are from using the cloned timer based method, same test that had the Panasonics reading at 16ms. With the new LagTester they could very well be similar.

I had the Samsung 51E550 on order due to all this, but after plenty consideration, i changed my order to the Panasonic 50UT50, waiting for it to arrive in the next week or two. I figured i'll see for myself and if it's that bad, i can still fire up the monitor.
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post #5 of 78 Old 09-09-2012, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I was asking one of my friends thats been gaming for a few years now and he replied:

As long as you're under a frame you should be fine. The difference between 8.9 ms on the Asus VH238H and 11 - 16 ms isn't noticable.


I'm thinking about asking one of my local stores if i can test it before buying so i don't end up returning. I know that putting the game on game mode helps with reducing input lag. What other tricks are out there? I read something on 4:4:4 and setting up input 1 or 2 to PC? Renaming? If anyone can explain.


Thanks.
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post #6 of 78 Old 09-09-2012, 05:46 PM
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Apperantly using component instead of HDMI on the UT50/ST50 reduces input lag by quite a bit. Keep in mind, that all of these HDTV input lag tests most likely just base their results off HDMI.
So, the UT50/ST50 possibly could be 2 frames at best like the X5. Playing fighters on my X5 like super smash bros brawl and super street fighter IV does feel a bit off..Slower and less zippity to be exact....And it's something i just can't get used to or deal with.
the 1 frame/16ms however is phenomenal on my LK450, but i finally sold that wretched little LCD for $300. tongue.gif

Best bet apperantly? Get last years ST30 or S30, or lat least see if somebody is selling ither of the two in your area and test them out.
As for the E550, doesn't it also do 2 frames without using that HDMI 'pc labeling'
trick? I mean Since it locks out certain picture controls to 'get' that 1 frame i won't
even bother doing that.tongue.gif Anyways, in the following weeks i'll be bringing my wii down to Future shop
and testing out the E550 and UT50(Even though i know what to expect, if i'm
lucky with input lag. Even if it's on par with the X5 i'll still be dissapointed)
Curious to see how the sammy fairs in brightness in game mode. I keep thinking
it's going to be a lot dimmer compared to the panasonics.
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post #7 of 78 Old 09-09-2012, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgarces87 View Post

Yeah, I was asking one of my friends thats been gaming for a few years now and he replied:
As long as you're under a frame you should be fine. The difference between 8.9 ms on the Asus VH238H and 11 - 16 ms isn't noticable.
I'm thinking about asking one of my local stores if i can test it before buying so i don't end up returning. I know that putting the game on game mode helps with reducing input lag. What other tricks are out there? I read something on 4:4:4 and setting up input 1 or 2 to PC? Renaming? If anyone can explain.
Thanks.

It's preferable to have 16ms and under, but with all the latest results, seems that none of these latest Plasmas come even close to that. The Samsungs allow you to rename the input lables, and when renamed to PC they perform better supposebly.

I say supposebly because the E6500 has been tested on avforums using the new LagTest device and it came up as ~38ms(UK model, doubt it differs though, it should also give some indication as to what to expect with the E550). Renaming the input to PC for them didn't do anything. Then on hdtvtest they say it does, however they use the old camera method to test. I have no idea anymore...so i'm just gonna go with one and see for myself and perhaps just deal with it.
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post #8 of 78 Old 09-10-2012, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I been reading and searching for about a month now both Plasma and LCD's, even if people run this test with the new or old LagTest its not going to convince a lot of people. Maybe waiting until TV manufactures start advertising input lag number then you can feel comfortable buying a TV for gaming. Asus is now starting to mention input lag information on some of their reviews. I might just end up waiting if I can't test one for myself. I sold my samsung last year because I only turned it on once a month. Lag was terrible and i kept gaming on my monitor. I dont really watch TV.

I will try and talk to one of my local store this week about testing a TV before purchasing.

Everlust - Give us an update on the Panasonic UT50 when you get it.
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post #9 of 78 Old 09-10-2012, 09:41 AM
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I did a few camera tests (not sure how accurate) with my ST50 and repeatedly got around 32ms for custom (motion smoother etc all OFF) and 16ms for game mode.

I think the ST50 would be fine for you under game mode.

Game mode does not lock out basic color settings. It locks out white balance, gamma, motion smoothing, and some other stuff.
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post #10 of 78 Old 09-10-2012, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Frankie1588,

Do you use the ST50 you currently own for gaming? If yes, what games have you tested it with and how do you know you're only getting 16ms input lag?
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post #11 of 78 Old 09-10-2012, 01:09 PM
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I too have been using an Asus monitor to play fighters on the past 2-3 years (I believe its the same monitor - it is the "Evo Monitor" that I am using), and I'm in the market for a bigger HDTV and am looking at the ST50 lines so far.

As of now I have yet to be able to find a store or person who owns the 60" one where I can personally test the lag out on.

Since I'm coming from the Evo Monitor, and currently have a DLP with terrible lag, I know exactly what to look for.

If I do get to test out an ST50 I will definitely post in the forums here my findings. It will be me just testing it and comparing the feel out to my Asus, and won't be an actual test ran with a PC hooked to it and timers.
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post #12 of 78 Old 09-10-2012, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I think that testing the actual feel and comparing to a monitor or Asus Evo monitor might be a better idea than the lag test. In my opinion I trust that more than timer test.
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post #13 of 78 Old 09-10-2012, 03:11 PM
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From the U.K review: GAME INFO
Although the PS60E6500 has a dedicated “Game Mode” buried in the menu, ignore it. When a 60hz signal is input, there’s a semi-hidden “PC” mode which has even lower input lag, owed to the fact that it takes RGB video from the video game console, and sends it straight to the panel for display. Accordingly, nearly all of the video processing features are disabled. Because this mode works with RGB, [Colour] is locked out (because there’s no use for this control in RGB mode), as is [Colour Space]. You can still use 2-point Greyscale correction, though.

It’s accessed by pressing the SOURCE button, highlighting the HDMI input that your games console is connected to, pressing TOOLS, and changing the label to “PC”. In this setup, input lag was only 16ms compared to a CRT display, making the Samsung PS60E6500 one of the fastest TVs for gaming we’ve tested. Couple this with an uncanny ability to avoid image retention, coupled with the usual picture quality and motion clarity inherent to Plasma technology, and we’re left with a video gamer’s dream.
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post #14 of 78 Old 09-10-2012, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgarces87 View Post

Hi Frankie1588,
Do you use the ST50 you currently own for gaming? If yes, what games have you tested it with and how do you know you're only getting 16ms input lag?

Yes, I have an ST50.

I have tested some shooters like Uncharted 3 (Online) and Killzone 3. Input lag is crucial for shooters and fighting games mostly. I am not big into fighting games and don't own any to try. I actually play on custom mode which showed a reported 32ms and it was fine for me. I can't guarantee that I am getting 32ms and 16ms respectively. I am just going by what was shown from the camera tests. I don't have an issue with the input lag on the ST50 even on custom mode.
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post #15 of 78 Old 09-10-2012, 07:11 PM
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I decided to get the ST50 instead, hopefully soon. I'll be sure to post back how i find it compared to my current CRT and monitor.
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post #16 of 78 Old 09-10-2012, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Sonyfan - I think the PS60E6500 is only available in UK. Is there a US model for this?

Everlust - Why did you change from the UT50 to the ST50? I know a lot of people going for the ST50, its a really good TV. You should really compare it by playing half an hour on your monitor and then switching over to the TV and playing the same game/character and see if it feels smooth and if you feel/notice any lag.

Frankie - If you was getting 32ms of lag i think you would notice it. Have you always played on TVs? You might be use to the lag if you always played on TV.
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post #17 of 78 Old 09-10-2012, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgarces87 View Post

Sonyfan - I think the PS60E6500 is only available in UK. Is there a US model for this?
Everlust - Why did you change from the UT50 to the ST50? I know a lot of people going for the ST50, its a really good TV. You should really compare it by playing half an hour on your monitor and then switching over to the TV and playing the same game/character and see if it feels smooth and if you feel/notice any lag.
Frankie - If you was getting 32ms of lag i think you would notice it. Have you always played on TVs? You might be use to the lag if you always played on TV.

Figured i might spend a bit extra now as i might shuffle my TV's around a bit, and upon closer look, i would definitely benefit from the AR filter on the ST50. I will definitely compare it smile.gif
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post #18 of 78 Old 09-11-2012, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgarces87 View Post

Sonyfan - I think the PS60E6500 is only available in UK. Is there a US model for this?
Everlust - Why did you change from the UT50 to the ST50? I know a lot of people going for the ST50, its a really good TV. You should really compare it by playing half an hour on your monitor and then switching over to the TV and playing the same game/character and see if it feels smooth and if you feel/notice any lag.
Frankie - If you was getting 32ms of lag i think you would notice it. Have you always played on TVs? You might be use to the lag if you always played on TV.

Yea I think 32ms would definitely be noticeable. I'm not saying that it's unplayable or anything, but definitely noticeable.

I had NOT A CLUE that my DLP from 2004 had ANY input lag until about 2009 when I went to an SF4 tournament and was just totally missing moves because I was trying to compensate by doing moves early. I gamed on PS2, Xbox, 360, Wii, GC, and PS3 all through those 5 years without any knowledge of input lag.

So me personally, I would not be surprised in the least if other people who simply have not gamed with minimal lag, would not even really know about it and think that it isn't having any effect on them. Cause that is sure as hell how I was hah!

Hell my little brother is a COD master, and sometimes he comes over and hooks his 360 up to my DLP while I play on my monitor, and will go like 6/1 KD ratio and come first on his team virtually every round. Frustrates the hell out of me because I can't even come close to his skills with less input lag!
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post #19 of 78 Old 09-12-2012, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Wazeboy - I know you been doing a lot of research to get an LCD or Plasma. Have you been able to test any models lately? Still hoping to get a TV with one 1 frame or less.
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post #20 of 78 Old 09-12-2012, 08:53 AM
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What do the pro SF4/other fighting game players use for displays? What do they use at tournaments like Evo? Just curious, I haven't played fighting games in a very long time (mostly an FPS gamer now).
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post #21 of 78 Old 09-12-2012, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by grambo View Post

What do the pro SF4/other fighting game players use for displays? What do they use at tournaments like Evo? Just curious, I haven't played fighting games in a very long time (mostly an FPS gamer now).

ASUS VH236H which has 8.3ms of input lag. It's nicknamed the "Evo Monitor" so if you ever hear that term, that is the one that they are talking about.

That is actually the exact monitor I game on as well, after getting competitive into SF4 when it first came out.

I actually played in SSF4 at Evo last year in 2011. Was a cool experience. Went 3-2 in my pool and lost to Air in losers semi's, who's one of Canada's best so I didn't feel too bad.

I didn't stand a chance against him though in all honesty lol.
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post #22 of 78 Old 09-12-2012, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgarces87 View Post

Wazeboy - I know you been doing a lot of research to get an LCD or Plasma. Have you been able to test any models lately? Still hoping to get a TV with one 1 frame or less.

Haven't tested out anything new yet. But you can count the UT50 and ST50 out, because you're not
going to get anything lower than 2 frames with either set. I'm going by my X5, and that's how well the UT50 and ST50
'might' beable to perform on 'component'. even then, it's 2+frames and for me it breaks the experience. I tried and tried to adjust,
but shifting back to my trustt old CRT yielded much better results and i just couldn't bare playing on the X5 any longer
as i was basically getting a complete faulty and broken impression on how the games truly perform in comparison.

1 frame is completely fine though of course. I just wish i could test out last years S30! But there's no
way I can. All i can do is order a 50" online in either good condition or refurbished for $600-$700 and take that little gamble and see how it fairs once it arrives. XP

The UT50 is a complete last resort...but i KNOW i won't be happy with the input lag performance.. The E550?
Ya, i'm not too thrilled with these dimmer samsung plasma's, and i have a strong feeling it' also going to be pushing
2 or more frames without doing that HDMI 'PC labeling' trick, which i wont be doing anyways since it locks out picture controls.

In terms of lag, the S30/ST30 has been compared to being as great as the LG LD450 LCD, which i've also owned before the LK450. The LK450 does 1 frame via component,
as does the LD450, but i never tried HDMI on the LD450, but on the 'LK450' theres a significant gain in laggyness. ;o I'm fully aware of what 1 frame feels like, and it's pure gaming bliss baby B-)
It's not quite perfect, but with digital controls i doubt you'd really beable to tellthe difference. motion controls however there's a 'bit' of a difference, but it still
performs wonderfully.

people are saying "16-32ms" for the S30/ST30. I just need a confirmation if the input lag is lower than the UT50/ST50 when using both Component and HDMI...If so,
than the UT50 is definitly not happening. But ya...it' a shame this entire input lag ordeal exsists. I wish a device would rear it's head or some type of newer tech in future displays
that would get rid of it all together, because as is it's just uneccaptable putting up with it just to get all of these other shnazzy PQ improvements and
a big screen. 'Gameplay' is the most important thing...Videogames don't feel intuitive on my X5(2 frames) as they do on my CRT or LK450....which is long gone now
since i sold it. XP
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post #23 of 78 Old 09-12-2012, 12:28 PM
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Does the ST50 have a VGA input on it?

I have the 360 VGA cable and could always hook it up via VGA if that is better than component or HDMI.

That is, if I do in fact end up with the ST50.

Now that it seems like the ST50 has 32ms or so of lag, that kind of sucks. I really wish I could just test one out myself!
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post #24 of 78 Old 09-12-2012, 12:54 PM
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Plasma's take VGA? I thought that was more of an LED/LCD thing. tongue.gif
and aside from getting 2 frames of lag even if you can, there have been complaints
that the scaling for the NA UT50 and ST50 for 480p and 720p content looks 'soft' or
there's some wierd oil painting-like effect going on. The UK models dont' seem
to suffer from this problem at all though.
seems like the UT50 is a phenomenal looking set if you just plan on watching 1080p
Bluray movies. Otherwise, 2 frames or more of lag with a soft 480p/720p image.

And then there's the Samsung E550 which i'd really love to test out. Curious
how the color gamut, brightness and of course input lag fair in comparison to my X5
And it seems there's only one seller online that's willing to ship to canada
regarding the 50" S30, i can get it for $900....But i've still got until the end of NOV
to decide. a 55" would be more ideal, but i guess i can't be too picky. Hopefully
panasonics 2013 plasmas will have lower lag and proper scaling. XP

For now When it all comes down to it, it's either the S30 or E550 for me.
Too bad the S30 doesn't have 3D....The ST30 does, but it also has the louvre filtre
which makes the PQ look softer among other things.
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post #25 of 78 Old 09-12-2012, 01:51 PM
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I was getting 16ms (via camera test) on game mode for the ST50 like I mentioned. I took about 15 screen shots and they were all right around 16ms. If you don't mind using game mode then it will be fine for you.

Also, I was not saying whether or not it was noticeable. It just doesn't bother me. I came from an HD CRT which probably had 16ms since it was a CRT(not sure/never tested). I also have a DVDO Edge hooked up to my TV which adds 6ms of input lag so I get a grand total of 38ms. It has been fine for me though, but that may be because I don't play a lot of FPS or fighting games.
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post #26 of 78 Old 09-12-2012, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I found someone selling a P46ST30 open box. I might stop by to test it if i have time. I'm planning on plugging in my xbox and see how it feels playing Mvc2. I been playing this game for years and i can tell if i see lag right away. Any other way ya think i should test this? I never done the timer test since i trust actual game play more than a stop watch.
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post #27 of 78 Old 09-12-2012, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie1588 View Post

I was getting 16ms (via camera test) on game mode for the ST50 like I mentioned. I took about 15 screen shots and they were all right around 16ms. If you don't mind using game mode then it will be fine for you.
Also, I was not saying whether or not it was noticeable. It just doesn't bother me. I came from an HD CRT which probably had 16ms since it was a CRT(not sure/never tested). I also have a DVDO Edge hooked up to my TV which adds 6ms of input lag so I get a grand total of 38ms. It has been fine for me though, but that may be because I don't play a lot of FPS or fighting games.

Thanks for your post.

I have a few questions for you...

1. What size ST50 do you have?
2. How did you have your console hooked to the TV, connector wise?
3. How come you have a total of 38ms if the DVDO only adds 6ms?


Thanks!
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post #28 of 78 Old 09-13-2012, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie1588 View Post

I was getting 16ms (via camera test) on game mode for the ST50 like I mentioned. I took about 15 screen shots and they were all right around 16ms. If you don't mind using game mode then it will be fine for you.
Also, I was not saying whether or not it was noticeable. It just doesn't bother me. I came from an HD CRT which probably had 16ms since it was a CRT(not sure/never tested). I also have a DVDO Edge hooked up to my TV which adds 6ms of input lag so I get a grand total of 38ms. It has been fine for me though, but that may be because I don't play a lot of FPS or fighting games.


Frankie, do you happen to own a UK model of the ST50? Because maybe that's why.
There's no way the NA ST50 is 16ms...That's impossible, because the X5 which does
less processing is double that. tongue.gif Have you bothered to try Component vs HDMI yet?
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post #29 of 78 Old 09-13-2012, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
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Thanks for your post.
I have a few questions for you...
1. What size ST50 do you have?
2. How did you have your console hooked to the TV, connector wise?
3. How come you have a total of 38ms if the DVDO only adds 6ms?
Thanks!


1) I did the tests on a 50". I currently have the 55" (returned the 50" for it). I haven't tried testing it on the 55", but I would imagine its the same. I will test it again soon. I am using my laptop as the other screen rather than a CRT that would provide even more accurate results. Not sure how much it matters.

2) You don't use the consoles when you do the test. All you do is run this flash program/website on your laptop and set the laptop to duplicate the display on your HDTV. Then you take a picture of both the laptop and the HDTV and record the difference in ms.

3) I don't use game mode. I use custom mode. 32ms+6ms=38ms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Frankie, do you happen to own a UK model of the ST50? Because maybe that's why.
There's no way the NA ST50 is 16ms...That's impossible, because the X5 which does
less processing is double that. tongue.gif Have you bothered to try Component vs HDMI yet?

Nope. US model. I was getting 16ms consistently in GAME mode with camera test. Again, who knows how accurate the camera test is when using your laptop rather than a CRT. I have not tried HDMI vs component.

I get 32-34ms in custom (with all extra processing off).

Here are the results with pics when I did this test a little over a month ago: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1166196/the-official-plasma-input-lag-thread/360#post_22247788
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post #30 of 78 Old 09-13-2012, 08:31 AM
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Thanks for the replies Frankie, but in #2 I meant how was the laptop hooked to the TV when you did the test, sorry.

Also do you know what type of panel is on your laptop? It definitely can make a huge difference if your laptop screen has lag as well.
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