Pioneer 6010FD KURO -vs- Todays Plasmas - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 10-15-2012, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a friend with the Pioneer PDP6010FD that he is considering selling to me for what I think is a decent price. The reservation that I have is, this set is about 5 years old now. I am sure technology has come a long way in that time. I know that the KUROs were way ahead of their time, but were they 5 years ahead? I still read about some of the Elites that are to this day the best sets ever produced, but how about the non-Elite 6010? How does it compare to a good set these days? Would it be a wise decision to buy a used set of this age? What do they generally sell for used in very good condition? Were there any known issues with this panel that I should be aware of? Any and all opinions, comments, and recommendations are welcomed and appreciated.
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post #2 of 16 Old 10-15-2012, 07:05 PM
 
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Don't quote me on this, but I think the black level capability of the 2012 Panasonics is on par with that Kuro generation (8th). Pioneer build quality was generally exemplary, so I imagine you could easily get at least another 5 years out of it. I would certainly pay less for it than you can get a 2012 Panasonic TV of the same size.
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post #3 of 16 Old 10-15-2012, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Don't quote me on this, but I think the black level capability of the 2012 Panasonics is on par with that Kuro generation (8th). Pioneer build quality was generally exemplary, so I imagine you could easily get at least another 5 years out of it. I would certainly pay less for it than you can get a 2012 Panasonic TV of the same size.

The 2012 Panasonics are actually about on par with the 9th gen kuros this time around.
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post #4 of 16 Old 10-16-2012, 04:06 PM
 
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Not what I've heard from D-Nice, a most respectable calibrator who used to post here. Black levels are just a touch above 9th gen.
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post #5 of 16 Old 10-16-2012, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Not what I've heard from D-Nice, a most respectable calibrator who used to post here. Black levels are just a touch above 9th gen.

That's what I actually meant. They are close in performance, but not quite there. If something were to happen to my krp 500m, I would probably steer towards a Vt50. Are you still rocking your Pro 111?
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post #6 of 16 Old 10-16-2012, 11:25 PM
 
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Yessir! Still jealous about your 500m, though. biggrin.gif

As a matter of fact, I'm probably just at or over 2000 hours of usage. Still a baby really...hope I don't develop the scourge of the dreaded red tint.
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post #7 of 16 Old 10-17-2012, 08:23 AM
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No way I would buy a used Kuro, pro or otherwise, unless you can buy it very cheap and you are on a tight budget. The new 2012 Panasonic plasma's will blow the Kuro's out of the water when viewing Blu Ray movies, imo.
Plus the fact that what happens if something goes wrong with a used Kuro, you could end up spending more on your used Kuro than what it would have cost to get a new Panasonic.

I had three Kuro's and one was a 5010, the last one was a 141, they all started to loose a little PQ as they aged.

And then there's the question of will Panasonic keep making the plasma's.

The Kuro was a great display in it's day, but that day has come and gone.

ss
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post #8 of 16 Old 10-17-2012, 09:41 AM
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I beg to disagree with the above, your displays must have been faulty to loose PQ with age.

I have a Euro KRP-600m and the PQ is just as good as when i got it many years ago, it still impresses me to this day, regardless of HD or SD sources.

I have 2 relatives both with the latest Panasonic VT50 displays and they are nowhere near the top notch, clean quality and black level i get from my 600m, i watch a lot of material at night with no lights on and the black just disappears into the frame, not possible with a Panasonic!

I wouldn't swap mine for 10 Panasonics!
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post #9 of 16 Old 10-17-2012, 10:51 AM
 
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Silly indeed. biggrin.gif
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post #10 of 16 Old 10-17-2012, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

I beg to disagree with the above, your displays must have been faulty to loose PQ with age.
I have a Euro KRP-600m and the PQ is just as good as when i got it many years ago, it still impresses me to this day, regardless of HD or SD sources.
I have 2 relatives both with the latest Panasonic VT50 displays and they are nowhere near the top notch, clean quality and black level i get from my 600m, i watch a lot of material at night with no lights on and the black just disappears into the frame, not possible with a Panasonic!
I wouldn't swap mine for 10 Panasonics!

I am not biasing my statement on opinion, I am biasing my statement on how both my 141 and 65VT50 ISF calibrations came out. Plus doing ISF calibrations on all my Kuro's, and yes my 141 did not calibrate as well over time. Because my 141 was one of the first produced it had a problem with blue, and that only became more of a problem over time. I guess the latter built kuros could have a reddish problem over time.

Check out my sig links, both of those ISF calibrations were done with about 500 hours on each panel. The 141 I calibrated using my I1pro and Calman, the 65VT50 was done with Calman and my I1 Pro 2.

imo the VT50 has a better low IRE's (10,20,30%) than the 141, what this means is you are going to see more detail in the low light output of a display, and yes if calibrated correctly the black on the VT50 should blend in to the bezel.

I am not saying to run out and buy a Panasonic, all I am saying if you consider what you can buy a new 2012 Panasonic Plasma for, you would be penny wise and pound foolish to buy a 8G Kuro used if the selling price was even 1/4 of what you can by a new Panny. Check out this link for what the panny can be had for.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1432133/panasonic-tc-p60u50-deals

Now that would be Silly.wink.gif

ss
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post #11 of 16 Old 10-17-2012, 04:25 PM
 
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Well, that's interesting, but you have attempted to back up your claims with empirical evidence so who am I to argue? wink.gif If Pioneer built these panels to markedly degrade at even 500 hours, that makes many of us owners look rather "pound foolish" as you so eloquently stated. I'm at nearly 2000 hours and not detecting any preponderance of red but that could change.
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post #12 of 16 Old 10-17-2012, 10:25 PM
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What is "empirical evidence" have to do with factual evidence, I back up what I am saying with actual charts, numbers and a alliterative to get the best bang for the buck.

You simply gave a opinion based on emotion and hear say.

As far as D-Nice goes, he was one of my two mentors in learning how to do a proper ISf calibration back when I got my first Kuro (5010), What he said was that he stilled like his Kuro better than the new Panisonic, but if he had to replace it he probably get a ST or VT50 When asked about how often he calibrates his Kuro his reply was about every three months.

As far as "Pioneer build quality was generally exemplary" you may want to read a lot of the post that go back to the release of the 8G Kuro, as I have before Pioneer stopped make the Kuro. imo Pioneer was no better or worse than any other big player making Plasma's.
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post #13 of 16 Old 10-17-2012, 11:55 PM
 
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Did I not concede and give you credit for providing that evidence? And what is it if not empirical? Why are you taking that as a slight against what you've posted? Excuse me for not revering your contribution enough. I'm not the one getting emotional here.

All that being said, it is still an anecdote regarding what happened to 2 of the Kuros you have. There's no way one can truthfully expand that to every Pioneer Plasma set (same with the blue and red tint problems, as one has to use supposition and extrapolation to make the case that ALL sets suffer). Also, I realize all manufacturers are subject to QC issues, but Pioneer has a better track record than most (and the Consumer Reports reliability studies have confirmed this). Yes, Panasonic is now at the top of the heap when it comes to quality control in the display realm (and I also realize they were not far behind Pioneer before they exited the business).

Your original comments about the Panasonic "blowing away" the Kuro when it comes to high-def picture are not based on a universal truth but your opinion based on the measurements you've taken of 2 sets (one from a set that is now 5 years old), akin to the expressed concern about a breakdown, which is another extremely rare event for these panels (I moved one cross-country and it still functions like new). D-Nice's admission that he prefers to calibrate every 3 months does lend some credence to your theory that facets of the image may undergo change quicker than what would be expected or preferred (and this is not necessarily the equivalent of "loosing" PQ).

For the record, I would definitely grab a Panasonic instead of an 8G Kuro...the choice between a used 9G and a Panasonic would be much more difficult at 50-60".
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post #14 of 16 Old 10-18-2012, 01:35 AM
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Please look at the second link in my sig, it clearly shows that those charts and numbers are for my 9G Signature Elite 141 and posted on 06/03/09. The Signature Elite Kuro was the best Pioneer had to offer for quality in any of there Kuro's, or so Pioneer said. imo the Signature Elite 141 was no better than any other Kuro for PQ, The only difference imo was in the calibration controls having more control over ISF calibration, there by the possibility to tweak a little better than the rest of the 9G Kuro's..

There is only three reason why I would suggest upgrading from a 9G Kuro, 3D, 65" and the possibility of blowing away the 9G Kuro, but only if you want to go to the extreme and use a 3D LUT 125 point CMS and 21 point gray scale calibration on the VT50. However you could do the same with your 9G Kuro, how well it would come out I can't say.

Anyway thanks for the stroll down memory lane, and enjoy your Kuro because it still holds it own with the new TV's of 2012.

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post #15 of 16 Old 10-18-2012, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Please look at the second link in my sig, it clearly shows that those charts and numbers are for my 9G Signature Elite 141 and posted on 06/03/09. The Signature Elite Kuro was the best Pioneer had to offer for quality in any of there Kuro's, or so Pioneer said. imo the Signature Elite 141 was no better than any other Kuro for PQ, The only difference imo was in the calibration controls having more control over ISF calibration, there by the possibility to tweak a little better than the rest of the 9G Kuro's..
There is only three reason why I would suggest upgrading from a 9G Kuro, 3D, 65" and the possibility of blowing away the 9G Kuro, but only if you want to go to the extreme and use a 3D LUT 125 point CMS and 21 point gray scale calibration on the VT50. However you could do the same with your 9G Kuro, how well it would come out I can't say.
Anyway thanks for the stroll down memory lane, and enjoy your Kuro because it still holds it own with the new TV's of 2012.
ss

Calibrations numbers don't paint the entire picture. The 141 is just an overall better TV than the VT50. I also own a 141FD (I was one of the first people to purchase it at my local Best Buy in October of 2008) and just recently had it calibrated by UMR after 11,000hrs on the clock, and let me tell you, the VT50 ain't touching the 141FD post calibration. But let's put raw numbers aside. The Kuro not only excels in picture quality but also performance. The 141FD handles 1080p/24 content better than any display available today and DEFINITELY does a much better job of preventing IR compared to the VT50. There is just no way I'd trade a 141FD for a VT50. The ONLY things the VT50 has going for it over the 141 is 3D and 5 more inches, both of which I wouldn't consider to be a worthwhile upgrade (but that's obviously subjective).

Anyway, I don't see anything out there today that would compel me to upgrade my set...well, except for the new 84" 4K Sony LCD. I'd trade my Kuro for it in a heart beat, but I don't think Sony would do an even trade for it. smile.gif

But I agree with you, if I were in the market today, I wouldn't buy a used Kuro, especially an 8G set. The new Panasonic will have to be good enough.
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post #16 of 16 Old 10-19-2012, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaoChe View Post

Calibrations numbers don't paint the entire picture. The 141 is just an overall better TV than the VT50. I also own a 141FD (I was one of the first people to purchase it at my local Best Buy in October of 2008) and just recently had it calibrated by UMR after 11,000hrs on the clock, and let me tell you, the VT50 ain't touching the 141FD post calibration. But let's put raw numbers aside. The Kuro not only excels in picture quality but also performance. The 141FD handles 1080p/24 content better than any display available today and DEFINITELY does a much better job of preventing IR compared to the VT50. There is just no way I'd trade a 141FD for a VT50. The ONLY things the VT50 has going for it over the 141 is 3D and 5 more inches, both of which I wouldn't consider to be a worthwhile upgrade (but that's obviously subjective).
Anyway, I don't see anything out there today that would compel me to upgrade my set...well, except for the new 84" 4K Sony LCD. I'd trade my Kuro for it in a heart beat, but I don't think Sony would do an even trade for it. smile.gif
But I agree with you, if I were in the market today, I wouldn't buy a used Kuro, especially an 8G set. The new Panasonic will have to be good enough.

You had a good man calibrate your 141 (Jeff), If I needed my Kuro 141 calibrated that's who I would call. Matter of fact Jeff 's opinion is that the Kuro has a overall better picture than the the VT50's. However imo I don't think he has had much exposure to the VT50's yet, so therefore he is much more comfortable calibrating the Kuro's. I bet when Jeff was at your home he was using large windows when calibrating your 141, I used the same calibrating my 141, however he still uses large windows calibrating the VT50. With the VT50 you will have much better results using the small windows, when using the I1pro.
If you look at your report from Jeff you will see three inner points one for foliage, flesh and one other tone (total CMS of 9 points). This type of calibration is a nice plus, but just to show you how technology keeps advancing, I now use for my VT50 a 3D LUT 125 point cube when calibrating my CMS (total of 125 point CMS), and a 21 point gray scale.

In my case I am very comfortable calibrating both the 141 and the VT50 and have lived with both as my go to display. The numbers and charts I have posted are imo very good for both the 141 and VT50, my point using these two calibrations as a example is that both the 141 and the VT50 do a great job. And as you may know I do my own calibration's only, I am not in anyway looking to promote myself, nor do I have any interest in calibrating for a living or money of any kind.

ss
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