having to turn the brightness higher on my ST30? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 11-28-2012, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Not really sure what to make of this. it's kinda long and a little bit technical, but maybe someone can give me some insight.

My set is about a year and a half old, and I've probably got over 2k hours on it. I haven't been in the service menu in a long time (at least 7-8 months), and only changed the cut/drv values whenever I did use it. I know that the brightness was normal about a month or so ago, because I had gotten a Display Pro to play with and started from scratch with the video settings.

Up until recently, 54 was the ideal brightness setting for my set. 16 on the brightness test video would show no dithering/sparklies, even with my nose almost touching the screen, and 17+ were all visible from viewing distance. At some point recently, I noticed that some of the darker scenes in a movie I was watching seemed like they were being crushed slightly, so i turned the brightness up, just to see if that was the case, and i notice that the black in the mattes didn't budge until I was over 60 brightness. So i check the brightness test pattern, and sure enough, now it needs to be set at 63 brightness before 16 starts dithering. On top of that, 17 isn't visible from my couch. 17 has some sparkling pixels that I can see if I get really close to the set, but i cant see it flashing from viewing distance anymore. I ran the brightness pattern on both my PS3 and HTPC with the same result. I did a factory reset on my TV, and tried a different input. Same result. Everything is piped through my Denon AVR-591, I havent' tried bypassing it yet because it would be a hassle, but I don't see how my receiver could be doing it, though i'm still going to try it when i get home from work.

Here's another weird thing I noticed; I don't know if any of you have ever really messed with the black extension, but it can be used to lower gamma at lower IRE's by setting it to 3 or 4, and then turning up the brightness. The black doesn't start rising until the 65-72ish range depending on which BE setting you chose, and it improves shadow detail a little bit . One of the problems with doing this though, is that the BE doesn't apply to the pixel orbiter border, so if you have BE on 4, and your brightness up to about 72, the pixel orbiter is washed out and visible, because the brightness of the pixel orbiter is the same as the rest of the screen would be if BE wasn't turned on.

Well, what I've noticed is that even after doing a factory reset, the pixel orbiter border is behaving like BE is on, and it still scales the way my brightness used to scale before i noticed this issue, meaning that it doesn't match the brightness of the rest of the screen, even though BE is off. I've also noticed that I can't use the BE trick anymore. The BE still appears to work, but when I try to turn the brightness up to compensate, the blacks start dithering before I'm able to use it like I was able to previously. It's almost like there are BE settings that are stuck or something.

This isn't normal for the 2011 sets is it? I was half-way wondering if the TV made some sort of adjustment after I passed a certain hour marker or something, but I haven't read about anybody experiencing anything like this, so I assume that it's just messed up, since I did a factory reset and am still having the same problem. I still plan to try bypassing my receiver when I get home, but I can't really see how it could be the problem. I got an extended warranty on it, but it's through Best Buy, so don't think I have any sort of tech support option.

Halp!

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post #2 of 16 Old 11-28-2012, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

Not really sure what to make of this. it's kinda long and a little bit technical, but maybe someone can give me some insight.
My set is about a year and a half old, and I've probably got over 2k hours on it. I haven't been in the service menu in a long time (at least 7-8 months), and only changed the cut/drv values whenever I did use it. I know that the brightness was normal about a month or so ago, because I had gotten a Display Pro to play with and started from scratch with the video settings.
Up until recently, 54 was the ideal brightness setting for my set. 16 on the brightness test video would show no dithering/sparklies, even with my nose almost touching the screen, and 17+ were all visible from viewing distance. At some point recently, I noticed that some of the darker scenes in a movie I was watching seemed like they were being crushed slightly, so i turned the brightness up, just to see if that was the case, and i notice that the black in the mattes didn't budge until I was over 60 brightness. So i check the brightness test pattern, and sure enough, now it needs to be set at 63 brightness before 16 starts dithering. On top of that, 17 isn't visible from my couch. 17 has some sparkling pixels that I can see if I get really close to the set, but i cant see it flashing from viewing distance anymore. I ran the brightness pattern on both my PS3 and HTPC with the same result. I did a factory reset on my TV, and tried a different input. Same result. Everything is piped through my Denon AVR-591, I havent' tried bypassing it yet because it would be a hassle, but I don't see how my receiver could be doing it, though i'm still going to try it when i get home from work.
Here's another weird thing I noticed; I don't know if any of you have ever really messed with the black extension, but it can be used to lower gamma at lower IRE's by setting it to 3 or 4, and then turning up the brightness. The black doesn't start rising until the 65-72ish range depending on which BE setting you chose, and it improves shadow detail a little bit . One of the problems with doing this though, is that the BE doesn't apply to the pixel orbiter border, so if you have BE on 4, and your brightness up to about 72, the pixel orbiter is washed out and visible, because the brightness of the pixel orbiter is the same as the rest of the screen would be if BE wasn't turned on.
Well, what I've noticed is that even after doing a factory reset, the pixel orbiter border is behaving like BE is on, and it still scales the way my brightness used to scale before i noticed this issue, meaning that it doesn't match the brightness of the rest of the screen, even though BE is off. I've also noticed that I can't use the BE trick anymore. The BE still appears to work, but when I try to turn the brightness up to compensate, the blacks start dithering before I'm able to use it like I was able to previously. It's almost like there are BE settings that are stuck or something.
This isn't normal for the 2011 sets is it? I was half-way wondering if the TV made some sort of adjustment after I passed a certain hour marker or something, but I haven't read about anybody experiencing anything like this, so I assume that it's just messed up, since I did a factory reset and am still having the same problem. I still plan to try bypassing my receiver when I get home, but I can't really see how it could be the problem. I got an extended warranty on it, but it's through Best Buy, so don't think I have any sort of tech support option.
Halp!

That is very strange especially if nothing in your chain has changed, Keep us posted if you figure out what the issue is. Do you have a black measurement to compare to ?

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post #3 of 16 Old 11-28-2012, 02:13 PM
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Just curious. What picture modes are you using, and does this happen with all of them?


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post #4 of 16 Old 11-28-2012, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Just curious. What picture modes are you using, and does this happen with all of them?
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yes it happens with all picture modes.

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post #5 of 16 Old 11-28-2012, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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update:

I got home from work, and turn the set on, and noticed something else strange to add to all of this. When my receiver is set to an HDMI input that isn't receiving a signal, the brightness suddenly behaves correctly. I get a black screen with some dithering, and if i turn the brightness to 54, that's the exact point where black has no dithering. But the second the TV gets a signal ( i wake up my HTPC, or turn on my PS3 or cable box etc), the brightness switches back to working like it has been, i tried it a few different times, and when I have the brightness set at 63, you can see the dithered, solid black screen darken to where there's no dithering, and then it displays the signal a split second later. So obviously I assumed it was the receiver. So I go get a spare hdmi cable and hook my PC straight to the TV, but it still does the same thing! So it's definitely something that the TV itself is doing.

I'm assuming my A-board is just acting up? Is there some other means of "reseting" things besides doing the typical factory reset? Whenever I called in last year to get a new A-board for the FBr fix, tech support made me go through a few routine troubleshooting steps, and one involved doing something, and then unplugging the TV for 30 seconds or something like that, does anyone know what I'm talking about?

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post #6 of 16 Old 11-29-2012, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

I haven't been in the service menu in a long time (at least 7-8 months), and only changed the cut/drv values whenever I did use it.

A couple of things; doing a factory reset does NOT restore SM values . . . you have to manually restore the values.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada 
When my receiver is set to an HDMI input that isn't receiving a signal, the brightness suddenly behaves correctly.
Could it be that the CATS is on . . . that's the default . . .

Regards . . . Jim

------------------------------------------------------

GT30 "Custom" Settings: http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6392

GT30 "THX" Settings: http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6393
GT30 "Vivid" Settings: http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6402


 

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post #7 of 16 Old 11-29-2012, 12:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JForge View Post

A couple of things; doing a factory reset does NOT restore SM values . . . you have to manually restore the values.

Yeah, I was pretty sure that was the case, but any changes I made to it was months ago, and only to the CUT and DRV values.

Quote:
Could it be that the CATS is on . . . that's the default . . .

CATS is off.

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post #8 of 16 Old 11-29-2012, 12:37 AM
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What picture modes are you using
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post #9 of 16 Old 11-29-2012, 12:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by banokmichaei View Post

What picture modes are you using

Custom is the main one I use, but Cinema and Vivid produce the same result. Didn't try any others.

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post #10 of 16 Old 12-01-2012, 04:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I've done enough playing around to determine that it's absolutely not settings related unless it's something in the SM that I accidentally changed, while being very careful 8 months ago, that just decided to start causing this issue within the last month. I also can't find any info on the SM settings that indicates one could even do such a thing. There is a brightness setting in the SM, but if i had changed that several months ago, it would have had an immediate effect, and still wouldn't explain everything that I'm dealing with.

As far as I can tell, it's as if the TV does something similar to black extension whenever it receives an HDMI signal, regardless of input, picture mode, source, or cable used. When it's not receiving a signal, the black background has dithering, which can be eliminated by setting the brightness to the level that used to be the perfect setting prior to this happening.

The problem translates into my being unable to set the brightness to achieve the lowest black level that the TV is capable of, without losing shadow detail. It's not horribly bad, but it is noticeable to me. It also breaks the usefulness of black extension, which would coincidentally be extremely handy for dealing with the loss of shadow detail in this situation.

So, that being said, if a part of the TV was going to cause this kind of problem, would it be a pretty safe bet that the A-board is the issue? Also, I've looked on ebay, and there seem to be plenty of A-boards available, but I notice that there seem to be different A-boards depending on the size of the set, which also happen to be more expensive the bigger the TV is. Is this how it is? or is this ebay sellers trying to make more money by claiming an A-board to be for a particular size set?

I still have a warranty on the TV, but it's through best buy. They'll send a contracted tech out to look at the set if i call about it, but I have a hard time believing that I would be able to convince somebody that the TV isn't behaving correctly, unless they happen to know the ST30 intimately.

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post #11 of 16 Old 12-01-2012, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

I've done enough playing around to determine that it's absolutely not settings related unless it's something in the SM that I accidentally changed, while being very careful 8 months ago, that just decided to start causing this issue within the last month. I also can't find any info on the SM settings that indicates one could even do such a thing. There is a brightness setting in the SM, but if i had changed that several months ago, it would have had an immediate effect, and still wouldn't explain everything that I'm dealing with.
As far as I can tell, it's as if the TV does something similar to black extension whenever it receives an HDMI signal, regardless of input, picture mode, source, or cable used. When it's not receiving a signal, the black background has dithering, which can be eliminated by setting the brightness to the level that used to be the perfect setting prior to this happening.
The problem translates into my being unable to set the brightness to achieve the lowest black level that the TV is capable of, without losing shadow detail. It's not horribly bad, but it is noticeable to me. It also breaks the usefulness of black extension, which would coincidentally be extremely handy for dealing with the loss of shadow detail in this situation.
So, that being said, if a part of the TV was going to cause this kind of problem, would it be a pretty safe bet that the A-board is the issue? Also, I've looked on ebay, and there seem to be plenty of A-boards available, but I notice that there seem to be different A-boards depending on the size of the set, which also happen to be more expensive the bigger the TV is. Is this how it is? or is this ebay sellers trying to make more money by claiming an A-board to be for a particular size set?
I still have a warranty on the TV, but it's through best buy. They'll send a contracted tech out to look at the set if i call about it, but I have a hard time believing that I would be able to convince somebody that the TV isn't behaving correctly, unless they happen to know the ST30 intimately.

If it were me I would at least explore the service call option. Then take the A board route

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post #12 of 16 Old 12-02-2012, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

Not really sure what to make of this. it's kinda long and a little bit technical, but maybe someone can give me some insight.
My set is about a year and a half old, and I've probably got over 2k hours on it. I haven't been in the service menu in a long time (at least 7-8 months), and only changed the cut/drv values whenever I did use it. I know that the brightness was normal about a month or so ago, because I had gotten a Display Pro to play with and started from scratch with the video settings.
Up until recently, 54 was the ideal brightness setting for my set. 16 on the brightness test video would show no dithering/sparklies, even with my nose almost touching the screen, and 17+ were all visible from viewing distance. At some point recently, I noticed that some of the darker scenes in a movie I was watching seemed like they were being crushed slightly, so i turned the brightness up, just to see if that was the case, and i notice that the black in the mattes didn't budge until I was over 60 brightness. So i check the brightness test pattern, and sure enough, now it needs to be set at 63 brightness before 16 starts dithering. On top of that, 17 isn't visible from my couch. 17 has some sparkling pixels that I can see if I get really close to the set, but i cant see it flashing from viewing distance anymore. I ran the brightness pattern on both my PS3 and HTPC with the same result. I did a factory reset on my TV, and tried a different input. Same result. Everything is piped through my Denon AVR-591, I havent' tried bypassing it yet because it would be a hassle, but I don't see how my receiver could be doing it, though i'm still going to try it when i get home from work.
Here's another weird thing I noticed; I don't know if any of you have ever really messed with the black extension, but it can be used to lower gamma at lower IRE's by setting it to 3 or 4, and then turning up the brightness. The black doesn't start rising until the 65-72ish range depending on which BE setting you chose, and it improves shadow detail a little bit . One of the problems with doing this though, is that the BE doesn't apply to the pixel orbiter border, so if you have BE on 4, and your brightness up to about 72, the pixel orbiter is washed out and visible, because the brightness of the pixel orbiter is the same as the rest of the screen would be if BE wasn't turned on.
Well, what I've noticed is that even after doing a factory reset, the pixel orbiter border is behaving like BE is on, and it still scales the way my brightness used to scale before i noticed this issue, meaning that it doesn't match the brightness of the rest of the screen, even though BE is off. I've also noticed that I can't use the BE trick anymore. The BE still appears to work, but when I try to turn the brightness up to compensate, the blacks start dithering before I'm able to use it like I was able to previously. It's almost like there are BE settings that are stuck or something.
This isn't normal for the 2011 sets is it? I was half-way wondering if the TV made some sort of adjustment after I passed a certain hour marker or something, but I haven't read about anybody experiencing anything like this, so I assume that it's just messed up, since I did a factory reset and am still having the same problem. I still plan to try bypassing my receiver when I get home, but I can't really see how it could be the problem. I got an extended warranty on it, but it's through Best Buy, so don't think I have any sort of tech support option.
Halp!

I've been experiencing something similar... although I never played in the service menu. Will probably try to re-calibrate again tonight using the AVS HD 709 video. Can you post the custom settings you have been using?
Thanks.
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post #13 of 16 Old 12-06-2012, 03:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feadin View Post

I've been experiencing something similar... although I never played in the service menu. Will probably try to re-calibrate again tonight using the AVS HD 709 video. Can you post the custom settings you have been using?
Thanks.

CUSTOM:
Contrast: 84
Brightness: 63
Color: 46
Tint: +1
Sharpness +20
Color Temp. Warm2
Pro Settings:
High R- +7
High G-0
High B-+2
Low R-+1
Low G- 0
Low B- -6
BE- 0
Gamma- 2.2
Panel Brightness: MID
HDMI Content- GRAPHICS

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post #14 of 16 Old 12-08-2012, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

CUSTOM:
Contrast: 84
Brightness: 63
Color: 46
Tint: +1
Sharpness +20
Color Temp. Warm2
Pro Settings:
High R- +7
High G-0
High B-+2
Low R-+1
Low G- 0
Low B- -6
BE- 0
Gamma- 2.2
Panel Brightness: MID
HDMI Content- GRAPHICS

Thanks.
Here are mine:

CUSTOM:
Contrast: 75 (was 82 before)
Brightness: 55 (was 56 before)
Color: 49
Tint: 0
Sharpness +30
Color Temp. Warm1
Pro Settings:
High R- +7
High G-0
High B-+16
Low R-+7
Low G- 0
Low B- +4
BE- 2 (was 0 before)
Gamma- 2.2
Panel Brightness: MID
HDMI Content- AUTO

My problem seems to be more of a Contrast issue...
Do you think I should put back BE at 0?

Thanks.
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post #15 of 16 Old 12-15-2012, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feadin View Post

Thanks.
Here are mine:
CUSTOM:
Contrast: 75 (was 82 before)
Brightness: 55 (was 56 before)
Color: 49
Tint: 0
Sharpness +30
Color Temp. Warm1
Pro Settings:
High R- +7
High G-0
High B-+16
Low R-+7
Low G- 0
Low B- +4
BE- 2 (was 0 before)
Gamma- 2.2
Panel Brightness: MID
HDMI Content- AUTO
My problem seems to be more of a Contrast issue...
Do you think I should put back BE at 0?
Thanks.

Yeah i think that BE is crushing your blacks if you haven't upped your brightness to compensate. You'll find that with BE enabled, your brightness can be turned up higher before your black levels start to rise. Once you adjust the brightness, you should have lower gamma at lower IRE's. You might try setting it to 3 or 4 for better results. I think having it at 0 is ideal, but if crushed blacks are noticeable, turning up your BE and brightness can help assuming your TV isn't acting strange like mine is.

HTPC: I3 2100, Radeon 6950.
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post #16 of 16 Old 12-16-2012, 06:54 PM
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Great, thanks for your tips!
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