Panasonic 2012 Plasma "Oil Painting" Issue Thread - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 39 Old 12-29-2012, 04:37 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Spanbauer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,610
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Forgive me if this has a dedicated thread already but I was not able to find one. I'd like to start a discussion about the poor upscaling quality of the 2012 Panasonic plasmas, commonly known as the "oil painting" effect, which seems to have been largely ignored and completely overlooked by all reviews. It's present whenever a 2012 Panasonic Plasma* receives a signal below 1080p and is left to upscale the video itself. What I can only assume is an attempt to mask the lower quality, the television's upconverter applies what best resembles the "Median" filter found in Adobe Photoshop. The result looks extremely similar to this mockup I created, although I've obviously overdramatized the issue here (be sure to enlarge):



From what I've been told, this issue is apparent on the UT50, ST50, GT50, and likely the VT50 (unconfirmed), regardless of manufacturing date (my ST50 suffers this issue and was manufactured November 2012). If you're not seeing the issue, it's either because you're not viewing any sources below 1080p or you're sitting too far away to notice. If your set top boxes or audio receiver upscales video content to 1080p before sending it to the television, you will not see the issue. An xBox 360 will not show the issue as it internally scales all content to 1080p (if that is your resolution setting), but a PS3 will show the issue (unless your audio receiver upscales the image) as most games output at a 720p signal. Broadcast television from cable or antenna via the coaxial jack will show this issue with 720p and SD channels. First and second-generation Apple TV's, which only operate at 720p, will suffer from this issue (again, unless your receiver is upscaling beforehand). You can confirm what kind of signal your Panasonic is receiving by pressing the "info" button on the remote during playback.

My questions are: what can be done about this and why aren't people making a bigger stink over it? I can only assume it's because there are very few of us viewing 720p signals with enough proximity to notice or care about the horrendous picture quality (I sit 6.5ft from my 50" plasma and it's painfully apparent). I'm accustomed to Samsung's fantastic upconverting in the PN50B650 plasma I previously owned, which made 720p content virtually indistinguishable from 1080p content. My number one 720p source is my Apple TV, which looked flawless on the Samsung, but with the Panasonic ST50 I would have to shell out another $99 for the 3rd-Generation 1080p Apple TV to get acceptable picture quality. But for PS3 owners without a receiver that upscales 720p content, there's no solution apart from returning a 2012 Panasonic Plasma for something else. Which, if I were a PS3 owner, is exactly what I would do.

Has anyone discussed this issue with Panasonic? Are they aware of the issue? Doing anything to improve matters with a firmware update? Thanks for the discussion!

*I've confirmed the issue on my ST50 and read of its existence on the UT50 and GT50; if anyone can confirm one way or the other with the VT50 that'd be great.
Scott Jeppesen likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
for my home theater setup
Spanbauer is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 39 Old 12-30-2012, 05:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,073
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked: 494
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

Forgive me if this has a dedicated thread already but I was not able to find one. I'd like to start a discussion about the poor upscaling quality of the 2012 Panasonic plasmas, commonly known as the "oil painting" effect, which seems to have been largely ignored and completely overlooked by all reviews. It's present whenever a 2012 Panasonic Plasma* receives a signal below 1080p and is left to upscale the video itself. What I can only assume is an attempt to mask the lower quality, the television's upconverter applies what best resembles the "Median" filter found in Adobe Photoshop. The result looks extremely similar to this mockup I created, although I've obviously overdramatized the issue here (be sure to enlarge):

From what I've been told, this issue is apparent on the UT50, ST50, GT50, and likely the VT50 (unconfirmed), regardless of manufacturing date (my ST50 suffers this issue and was manufactured November 2012). If you're not seeing the issue, it's either because you're not viewing any sources below 1080p or you're sitting too far away to notice. If your set top boxes or audio receiver upscales video content to 1080p before sending it to the television, you will not see the issue. An xBox 360 will not show the issue as it internally scales all content to 1080p (if that is your resolution setting), but a PS3 will show the issue (unless your audio receiver upscales the image) as most games output at a 720p signal. Broadcast television from cable or antenna via the coaxial jack will show this issue with 720p and SD channels. First and second-generation Apple TV's, which only operate at 720p, will suffer from this issue (again, unless your receiver is upscaling beforehand). You can confirm what kind of signal your Panasonic is receiving by pressing the "info" button on the remote during playback.
My questions are: what can be done about this and why aren't people making a bigger stink over it? I can only assume it's because there are very few of us viewing 720p signals with enough proximity to notice or care about the horrendous picture quality (I sit 6.5ft from my 50" plasma and it's painfully apparent). I'm accustomed to Samsung's fantastic upconverting in the PN50B650 plasma I previously owned, which made 720p content virtually indistinguishable from 1080p content. My number one 720p source is my Apple TV, which looked flawless on the Samsung, but with the Panasonic ST50 I would have to shell out another $99 for the 3rd-Generation 1080p Apple TV to get acceptable picture quality. But for PS3 owners without a receiver that upscales 720p content, there's no solution apart from returning a 2012 Panasonic Plasma for something else. Which, if I were a PS3 owner, is exactly what I would do.
Has anyone discussed this issue with Panasonic? Are they aware of the issue? Doing anything to improve matters with a firmware update? Thanks for the discussion!
*I've confirmed the issue on my ST50 and read of its existence on the UT50 and GT50; if anyone can confirm one way or the other with the VT50 that'd be great.

Buy a darbee and yes this has been discussed extensively on this forum.

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #3 of 39 Old 12-30-2012, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Spanbauer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,610
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Buy a darbee and yes this has been discussed extensively on this forum.
chunon, even if a darbee upscales the image to 1080p (and I haven't been able to confirm that it does), asking people to shell out $319 for an artificial picture enhancer to make their $279 console look acceptable isn't a realistic solution in my opinion. What was the consensus from the extensive discussion here about this issue? Are people just living with the abysmal 720p picture quality of Panasonic's 2012 plasma line-up?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
for my home theater setup
Spanbauer is offline  
post #4 of 39 Old 12-30-2012, 12:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,073
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked: 494
Its not really an upscaler it add details to the picture i was just offering it up as a potential solution not mimimizing your issue in the least. I have seen some complaints but for most its not an issue imo

I think the chances of panny addressing this are slim to none maybe in the 2013s samsungs defintely handle 720p better no doubt about that

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #5 of 39 Old 12-31-2012, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Spanbauer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,610
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Its not really an upscaler it add details to the picture i was just offering it up as a potential solution not mimimizing your issue in the least. I have seen some complaints but for most its not an issue imo
I think the chances of panny addressing this are slim to none maybe in the 2013s samsungs defintely handle 720p better no doubt about that
Yes, the Samsung's do fantastic upscaling, or at least the 2009 models did (can't personally vouche for the others). I never understood the point of the 3rd generation 1080p Apple TV because the 2nd generation 720p model looked fantastic on my Samsung. Not so on the Panasonic, where all 720p sources look abysmal. The Panasonic of course is better in many, many other respects - which is why I want a solution to the upscaling issue as opposed to returning the set altogether.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
for my home theater setup
Spanbauer is offline  
post #6 of 39 Old 12-31-2012, 09:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,073
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked: 494
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

Yes, the Samsung's do fantastic upscaling, or at least the 2009 models did (can't personally vouche for the others). I never understood the point of the 3rd generation 1080p Apple TV because the 2nd generation 720p model looked fantastic on my Samsung. Not so on the Panasonic, where all 720p sources look abysmal. The Panasonic of course is better in many, many other respects - which is why I want a solution to the upscaling issue as opposed to returning the set altogether.

I understand but short of adding either a darbee or an avr in your chain you might be out of luck. Don't know if a pro cal would mitigate that issue or not.

65VT60
55ST60
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #7 of 39 Old 12-31-2012, 09:23 AM
Newbie
 
crystalfinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Just my 2 cents, right now I am watching a couple of 720p broadcasts via coaxial input on a p50UT50. One of them is has the effect visibly apparent, but another looks about as good as the 1080 channels (I wouldnt have guessed it was 720p until I checked). Both are nationally broadcast programs.
crystalfinger is offline  
post #8 of 39 Old 12-31-2012, 06:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
Vic12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 746
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Definitely take it back That's unacceptable IMO if it's the tv
Vic12345 is offline  
post #9 of 39 Old 12-31-2012, 07:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
6SpeedTA95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Tulsa area
Posts: 2,320
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I've got a VT50 and noticed it doesn't upscale nearly as well as my 5080HD Kuro did. But I expected that going on. I've had no issues on 720p material, even went so far as to feed my tv a 720 only feed via my cable box due to some issues I was having with sports and noticed no problems. On 480p sources it still looked more than acceptable, SD cable sources were pretty bad and I'd say your illustration is a good example of an SD cable fed source. But I never experienced problems with 720p.

I just picked up a U50 for the living room, hopefully it's halfway decent.
6SpeedTA95 is offline  
post #10 of 39 Old 01-02-2013, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Spanbauer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,610
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 View Post

I've got a VT50 and noticed it doesn't upscale nearly as well as my 5080HD Kuro did. But I expected that going on. I've had no issues on 720p material, even went so far as to feed my tv a 720 only feed via my cable box due to some issues I was having with sports and noticed no problems. On 480p sources it still looked more than acceptable, SD cable sources were pretty bad and I'd say your illustration is a good example of an SD cable fed source. But I never experienced problems with 720p.
I just picked up a U50 for the living room, hopefully it's halfway decent.
Thanks for the response, 6SpeedTA95. I'd be very surprised to know the VT50 experienced the issue with SD material but not 720p material; I would imagine that either Panasonic would be using the same upscaling technique across their entire line-up, or else certain models would use a different method altogether. How far are you seated from your VT50? The issue definitely becomes more apparent the lower the source material, so is it possible you're just too far away to see the issue with 720p content? It's definitely more apparent with static images (like the movies posters and album covers and photo sideshows of the Apple TV), so if you're only watching broadcast material you may have not noticed the issue.

I'd be really curious to hear if you can see the issue on the U50, and how it compares to the VT50. You're probably one of the few people with multiple 2012 Panasonic plasmas in-house, so it'd be really interesting to hear what you see. Thanks again.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
for my home theater setup
Spanbauer is offline  
post #11 of 39 Old 01-02-2013, 09:04 AM
Member
 
davelanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

Thanks for the response, 6SpeedTA95. I'd be very surprised to know the VT50 experienced the issue with SD material but not 720p material; I would imagine that either Panasonic would be using the same upscaling technique across their entire line-up, or else certain models would use a different method altogether. How far are you seated from your VT50? The issue definitely becomes more apparent the lower the source material, so is it possible you're just too far away to see the issue with 720p content? It's definitely more apparent with static images (like the movies posters and album covers and photo sideshows of the Apple TV), so if you're only watching broadcast material you may have not noticed the issue.
I'd be really curious to hear if you can see the issue on the U50, and how it compares to the VT50. You're probably one of the few people with multiple 2012 Panasonic plasmas in-house, so it'd be really interesting to hear what you see. Thanks again.


What if you dont upscale and just watch the station in 720 is the picture better? At 50 inches its at the boarder line of when you can tell the differerence between 720 and 1080 depending on how far you sit from the TV.

I am just curious if you are just better off watching 720 stations in 720. This can be done right?? I am looking at this TV (the GT) so i am curious
davelanger is offline  
post #12 of 39 Old 01-02-2013, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Spanbauer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,610
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by davelanger View Post

What if you dont upscale and just watch the station in 720 is the picture better? At 50 inches its at the boarder line of when you can tell the differerence between 720 and 1080 depending on how far you sit from the TV.
I am just curious if you are just better off watching 720 stations in 720. This can be done right?? I am looking at this TV (the GT) so i am curious
Unfortunately that cannot be done. All flatscreens (to my knowledge) internally scale the signal to 1080p. The only way to avoid the television scaling your image is to feed it a 1080p source - not possible if your source isn't available in 1080p.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
for my home theater setup
Spanbauer is offline  
post #13 of 39 Old 01-02-2013, 01:30 PM
Member
 
davelanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

Unfortunately that cannot be done. All flatscreens (to my knowledge) internally scale the signal to 1080p. The only way to avoid the television scaling your image is to feed it a 1080p source - not possible if your source isn't available in 1080p.

Oh ok, my cable box lets me keep the signal at the naive resolution, I didnt know the TV would just upscale it anyways. Good to know.
davelanger is offline  
post #14 of 39 Old 01-02-2013, 01:33 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
rogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Sequoia, CA
Posts: 30,239
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 185 Post(s)
Liked: 524
I'm a bit confused. First of all, a 3rd-gen AppleTV less the sale of a 2nd-gen is about $40-50 max in cost. So if that fixes your problems, that's an obvious solution, right? The 1080p HD streams on the AppleTV are great by the way.

I have a PS3, also, which I output at 1080p. Why would I output at 720p? That seems like a weird choice and bad example to explain this problem.

Third of all, I keep wondering how much of this "the TV is bad at 720p" thing is true. I do some testing now and again and it seems to me, the TV is revealing of mediocre 720p. But I'm not sure it's bad at 720p upscaling (at least my VT50).

I can try again when some 720p looks bad to try to make sure the Denon upscales it first or otherwise mess with the signal and then try going direct into the TV with it, but previous testing has been inconclusive.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
rogo is offline  
post #15 of 39 Old 01-02-2013, 02:01 PM
Member
 
spakins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Seeing this thread is ironic. 3 weeks ago I purchased the sammy pn64e533 from costco. I love the TV, but with no AR coating the bright room performance suffers too much and I didnt think I could live with that long term. So, two days ago, I went out and picked up a panny 65" ST50. All the reviews I read were glowing and mentioned one of its main strengths was the bright room performance.

However, having these two fed with my AT&T U-verse HDMI side by side, the sammy does a much, much better job with both 720P and 1080i content. In fact, it's so much better I am having a tough time deciding if a glare/dim daytime picture isnt actualy the lesser evil. I might actual return the ST50 now and keep the sammy and deal with the glare.

I read extensively about the ST50 before picking it up and dont think I ever read how real the video processing differences (vs samsung) were. I will say however that the ST50 completely kills it with 1080P sources. Hands downs winner and it's AR filter is great.
spakins is offline  
post #16 of 39 Old 01-02-2013, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Spanbauer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,610
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm a bit confused. First of all, a 3rd-gen AppleTV less the sale of a 2nd-gen is about $40-50 max in cost. So if that fixes your problems, that's an obvious solution, right? The 1080p HD streams on the AppleTV are great by the way.
That is the road I'll have to go down, but it's money I hadn't anticipated spending and there's no solution for my OTA 720p channels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I have a PS3, also, which I output at 1080p. Why would I output at 720p? That seems like a weird choice and bad example to explain this problem.
As I understand it, most PS3 games run at 720p and the console actually outputs a 720p signal during gameplay; the xbox 360 also runs many games well below 1080p resolution, but internally upscales the image before sending it to the television. I don't own a PS3 so I cannot confirm that's the case, but it is what I have read. And if true, then the only solution for PS3 owners would be to pony up for an expensive receiver that will upconvert 720p HDMI sources to 1080p, and do it really well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Third of all, I keep wondering how much of this "the TV is bad at 720p" thing is true. I do some testing now and again and it seems to me, the TV is revealing of mediocre 720p. But I'm not sure it's bad at 720p upscaling (at least my VT50).
Again, when I owned my Samsung plasma I never considered purchasing the 1080p 3rd generation Apple TV because the 720p 2nd generation model looked flawless. But when I replaced my samsung plasma with the Panasonic ST50, I immediately noticed the severely depreciated picture quality from my 720p Apple TV. So yes, the 2012 Panasonic plasmas are really, really bad at upscaling (or at least the ST50) compared to the competition, and the issue is not with the source.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I can try again when some 720p looks bad to try to make sure the Denon upscales it first or otherwise mess with the signal and then try going direct into the TV with it, but previous testing has been inconclusive.
It's quite possible your Denon receiver is upscaling the image to 1080p, thus avoiding the problem entirely. Pressing the "info" button on your tv remote will indicate whether or not the television is actually receiving a 720p signal from the source or if the receiver's converting it to 1080p beforehand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spakins View Post

Seeing this thread is ironic. 3 weeks ago I purchased the sammy pn64e533 from costco. I love the TV, but with no AR coating the bright room performance suffers too much and I didnt think I could live with that long term. So, two days ago, I went out and picked up a panny 65" ST50. All the reviews I read were glowing and mentioned one of its main strengths was the bright room performance.
However, having these two fed with my AT&T U-verse HDMI side by side, the sammy does a much, much better job with both 720P and 1080i content. In fact, it's so much better I am having a tough time deciding if a glare/dim daytime picture isnt actualy the lesser evil. I might actual return the ST50 now and keep the sammy and deal with the glare.
I read extensively about the ST50 before picking it up and dont think I ever read how real the video processing differences (vs samsung) were. I will say however that the ST50 completely kills it with 1080P sources. Hands downs winner and it's AR filter is great.
Yeah, it's an issue I believe is criminally overlooked. If any television's 1080p picture quality looked like the 2012 Panasonic's 720p picture quality, that television would be the laughing stock of the forums and receive abysmal reviews. But people only check 1080p sources so the issue's been almost entirely overlooked.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
for my home theater setup
Spanbauer is offline  
post #17 of 39 Old 01-02-2013, 05:17 PM
Member
 
spakins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have 12 more days to decide on the st50 (rcwilley only has 14 day return policy). I'll let you know what I decide. I'm home from work and looking at them side by side again. The panny is excellent in so many areas and has a better panel for sure. I just wish the video processing was to the same level. I think in the real long term (5+ years) 1080p content may become more prevalent making video processing less of a differentiator.
spakins is offline  
post #18 of 39 Old 01-02-2013, 05:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
6SpeedTA95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Tulsa area
Posts: 2,320
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I sat anywhere from 6 to 10 feet away from teh set with 720p content depending on which seat I was in. The 720 stuff looks ok to me, nothing like the oil painting effect in the first post. The difference between upscaling a 720p, 480p or 480i signal is simply the amount of work a processor has to do. There is MUCH more interpolation aka guessing from the processor as the source quality falls off.

I watched some 480p (DVD) yesterday just to see it and it's noticeably poorer than the 720p material on the VT50. The Pioneer excelled at upscaling any progressive source. But again I expected this TV to be weaker in that regard.

I also will be the first to tell you and agree that Samsung upscales much better from 480p or 480i. 720p may come down to the source but a slight edge may go to Samsung in that regard. But on 1080p material the Panasonic just kills it.

The UVerse folks come out friday to hookup cable, at that point I'll plug in the U50 and I'll try to report back what my findings are.

And yes most tests performed by professional reviewers are done using 1080p content and then various discs for upscale testing. I am really not sure there's much if any real world content upscaling that occurs in these reviews today.
6SpeedTA95 is offline  
post #19 of 39 Old 01-03-2013, 12:46 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
rogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Sequoia, CA
Posts: 30,239
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 185 Post(s)
Liked: 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

That is the road I'll have to go down, but it's money I hadn't anticipated spending and there's no solution for my OTA 720p channels.

I'm just not experiencing what you are.
Quote:
As I understand it, most PS3 games run at 720p and the console actually outputs a 720p signal during gameplay; the xbox 360 also runs many games well below 1080p resolution, but internally upscales the image before sending it to the television. I don't own a PS3 so I cannot confirm that's the case, but it is what I have read. And if true, then the only solution for PS3 owners would be to pony up for an expensive receiver that will upconvert 720p HDMI sources to 1080p, and do it really well.

Most game graphics are not as sensitive to these effects as true video. I doubt the effect would be as pronounced.
Quote:
It's quite possible your Denon receiver is upscaling the image to 1080p, thus avoiding the problem entirely. Pressing the "info" button on your tv remote will indicate whether or not the television is actually receiving a 720p signal from the source or if the receiver's converting it to 1080p beforehand.

I thought I was clear but I've run it both ways, with and without the receiver.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
rogo is offline  
post #20 of 39 Old 01-03-2013, 02:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
imws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: New York, NY USA
Posts: 1,399
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I've had a 55" VT50 for a few weeks now and was surprised to find this post, in any case I attempted to duplicate the issue and was unable to do so with 720p... sending the VT50 a 720p signal did not exhibit the issue you are describing quite the contrary it looked freakin amazing.... 480p did not look good however but I would never use 480i/p.
imws is offline  
post #21 of 39 Old 01-03-2013, 04:49 AM
Senior Member
 
Todd68's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 21
I watched 720p and 1080i football and they both looked awesome on VT50. But I have an OPPO doing the video up converting, so I guess this don't count.

Cheers!
Todd68 is offline  
post #22 of 39 Old 01-03-2013, 07:30 AM
Member
 
Recstar24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

I watched 720p and 1080i football and they both looked awesome on VT50. But I have an OPPO doing the video up converting, so I guess this don't count.
Cheers!

Same here, I have my Comcast input to my oppo 103 and I'm not complaining.
Recstar24 is offline  
post #23 of 39 Old 01-03-2013, 07:40 AM
Advanced Member
 
Semp1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 749
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 20
My 55GT50 looks great. 720p content also looks great on cable simply because the cable box has an internal upscaler that upscales all the channels to 1080i. Matter of fact most boxes have this feature on which is why most people probably do not see the issue on 720p sources. Now, When trying the Apple TV 2 gen (720p) not so great but passable from normal viewing distances although closer is when this affect is obvious. The best way to test it is to go to the trailers section and look at all the movie box art. It all looks painted I actually had to check and make sure it wasn't supposed to look that way. When checking on my 65vt30 the affect on Apple TV 2 gen (720p) is not there. Wow that's pretty bad for the xx50 line. Thank God for receivers that upscale. Switched the Apple TV input to upscale to 1080p and problem fixed, but still not acceptable. Basically what it looks to be doing is smoothing out all the textures to an amount that's unacceptable. Looks like last years models are slightly better at a few things. After checking the PS3 games that run 720p, which are most I can confirm this issue also affects the PS3. As long as you're close enough it is fairly noticabled, unless you upscale to1080p using something, then obviously the issue goes away, and yes the Xbox is unaffected.

65VT60+55GT50+Onkyo TX-NR727+Denon AVR-1913+OPPO bdp-103+OPPO bdp-83=Heaven
Semp1 is offline  
post #24 of 39 Old 01-04-2013, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Spanbauer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,610
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Semp1 View Post

Now, When trying the Apple TV 2 gen (720p) not so great but passable from normal viewing distances although closer is when this affect is obvious. The best way to test it is to go to the trailers section and look at all the movie box art. It all looks painted I actually had to check and make sure it wasn't supposed to look that way. When checking on my 65vt30 the affect on Apple TV 2 gen (720p) is not there. Wow that's pretty bad for the xx50 line. Thank God for receivers that upscale. Switched the Apple TV input to upscale to 1080p and problem fixed, but still not acceptable. Basically what it looks to be doing is smoothing out all the textures to an amount that's unacceptable. Looks like last years models are slightly better at a few things.
Semp1, thank you for confirming that the issue is present on the GT50 as well; it's disappointing but also reassuring to know that spending $200 more for the GT model wouldn't have solved the problem. You're absolutely correct that the movie posters on the Apple TV menu is a great indicator of the issue; that was the first giveaway for me, but where it became completely unacceptable is when I viewed a slideshow of my own photography on the Apple TV and all of my photos looked like I'd applied some gaudy filter to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Semp1 View Post

After checking the PS3 games that run 720p, which are most I can confirm this issue also affects the PS3. As long as you're close enough it is fairly noticabled, unless you upscale to1080p using something, then obviously the issue goes away, and yes the Xbox is unaffected.
If I were a PS3 owner I'd have to reluctantly return this set, as dropping $600 for a receiver with upscaling capabilities would not be a solution I'd even consider. My 1080p 3rd Generation Apple TV arrives today, replacing the 720p model I sold earlier this week, which ought to put most of my issues at rest.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
for my home theater setup
Spanbauer is offline  
post #25 of 39 Old 01-04-2013, 09:08 AM
Advanced Member
 
RodK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 663
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by spakins View Post

Seeing this thread is ironic. 3 weeks ago I purchased the sammy pn64e533 from costco. I love the TV, but with no AR coating the bright room performance suffers too much and I didnt think I could live with that long term. So, two days ago, I went out and picked up a panny 65" ST50. All the reviews I read were glowing and mentioned one of its main strengths was the bright room performance.
However, having these two fed with my AT&T U-verse HDMI side by side, the sammy does a much, much better job with both 720P and 1080i content. In fact, it's so much better I am having a tough time deciding if a glare/dim daytime picture isnt actualy the lesser evil. I might actual return the ST50 now and keep the sammy and deal with the glare.
I read extensively about the ST50 before picking it up and dont think I ever read how real the video processing differences (vs samsung) were. I will say however that the ST50 completely kills it with 1080P sources. Hands downs winner and it's AR filter is great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spakins View Post

I have 12 more days to decide on the st50 (rcwilley only has 14 day return policy). I'll let you know what I decide. I'm home from work and looking at them side by side again. The panny is excellent in so many areas and has a better panel for sure. I just wish the video processing was to the same level. I think in the real long term (5+ years) 1080p content may become more prevalent making video processing less of a differentiator.



You are kind of comparing apples and oranges. Maybe you should try the Samsung E6500

RodK is offline  
post #26 of 39 Old 01-06-2013, 11:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Mathesar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Interesting, When we upgraded from a 42PZ77U to a Kuro 5080HD in late 2007 one of the noticeable improvements with the Kuro was 480P quality, The Wii console @ 480P always had a "smeared" look on the 77U very similar to the OPs illustration.
Mathesar is offline  
post #27 of 39 Old 01-06-2013, 10:05 PM
Member
 
spakins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I decided to stick with the 65st50 over the 64e533. for the room and lighting situation I have, it was far superior. when I brought the 64e533 back to costco, they had already lowered the price on them to 1249.......that is a steal if you have a good light controlled room.
spakins is offline  
post #28 of 39 Old 01-07-2013, 02:14 PM
Member
 
sandman123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So what is your upscaling solution?
I just bought a 65GT50 and notice the same thing from OTA antenna with stations at 720p.
I don't have cable, so i need something else to upscale as well.

thanks
sandman123 is offline  
post #29 of 39 Old 01-08-2013, 08:00 AM
Senior Member
 
swizzchard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

Forgive me if this has a dedicated thread already but I was not able to find one. I'd like to start a discussion about the poor upscaling quality of the 2012 Panasonic plasmas, commonly known as the "oil painting" effect, which seems to have been largely ignored and completely overlooked by all reviews. It's present whenever a 2012 Panasonic Plasma* receives a signal below 1080p and is left to upscale the video itself. What I can only assume is an attempt to mask the lower quality, the television's upconverter applies what best resembles the "Median" filter found in Adobe Photoshop. The result looks extremely similar to this mockup I created, although I've obviously overdramatized the issue here (be sure to enlarge):

From what I've been told, this issue is apparent on the UT50, ST50, GT50, and likely the VT50 (unconfirmed), regardless of manufacturing date (my ST50 suffers this issue and was manufactured November 2012). If you're not seeing the issue, it's either because you're not viewing any sources below 1080p or you're sitting too far away to notice. If your set top boxes or audio receiver upscales video content to 1080p before sending it to the television, you will not see the issue. An xBox 360 will not show the issue as it internally scales all content to 1080p (if that is your resolution setting), but a PS3 will show the issue (unless your audio receiver upscales the image) as most games output at a 720p signal. Broadcast television from cable or antenna via the coaxial jack will show this issue with 720p and SD channels. First and second-generation Apple TV's, which only operate at 720p, will suffer from this issue (again, unless your receiver is upscaling beforehand). You can confirm what kind of signal your Panasonic is receiving by pressing the "info" button on the remote during playback.
My questions are: what can be done about this and why aren't people making a bigger stink over it? I can only assume it's because there are very few of us viewing 720p signals with enough proximity to notice or care about the horrendous picture quality (I sit 6.5ft from my 50" plasma and it's painfully apparent). I'm accustomed to Samsung's fantastic upconverting in the PN50B650 plasma I previously owned, which made 720p content virtually indistinguishable from 1080p content. My number one 720p source is my Apple TV, which looked flawless on the Samsung, but with the Panasonic ST50 I would have to shell out another $99 for the 3rd-Generation 1080p Apple TV to get acceptable picture quality. But for PS3 owners without a receiver that upscales 720p content, there's no solution apart from returning a 2012 Panasonic Plasma for something else. Which, if I were a PS3 owner, is exactly what I would do.
Has anyone discussed this issue with Panasonic? Are they aware of the issue? Doing anything to improve matters with a firmware update? Thanks for the discussion!
*I've confirmed the issue on my ST50 and read of its existence on the UT50 and GT50; if anyone can confirm one way or the other with the VT50 that'd be great.

What size set did you get and experience this issue?
swizzchard is offline  
post #30 of 39 Old 01-08-2013, 10:29 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
delete
Scott Jeppesen is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off