Am I better off waiting for the new 2013 plasmas or should I go with the 2012 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 12-31-2012, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Am I better off waiting for the new 2013 plasmas or should I go with the 2012. I was worried about getting the ST50 Panny because of the IR issue, as I do a lot of gaming. Is this really still an issue or should I just wait until the 2013 models come out to see if this was fixed? Or should I just go for an LED? I saw a really nice samsung LED TV at best buy today.

The ST50 looks like a really nice TV but the how IR/Burn In thing has me a bit worried about getting it.
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post #2 of 47 Old 12-31-2012, 04:37 PM
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I would go led if the primary use is for gaming

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post #3 of 47 Old 12-31-2012, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Is the picture quality that much different between LED and Plasma?

Also do the Panny ST50s and even the GT50s still have the IR problem?

I do watch my current TV from the side and that is why i ilke getting a plasma because it has better viewing angles
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post #4 of 47 Old 12-31-2012, 04:58 PM
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Plasma holds the edge in blacks and viewing angle etc but i do believe ir is a concern as a full time gaming set

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post #5 of 47 Old 12-31-2012, 08:40 PM
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I have been a huge plasma proponent. I own a tcp42s2 that has been rock solid. No IR, decent blacks, great motion. A hitachi before that. Another great tv.

My st30 from '11 was a 50 inch. Dim, bad 3d, horrible ir and ended up warranted for a bad panel.

I was given an st50 as a replacement! Very bright, awesome contrast. Great blacks. Still bad 3d, maybe worse. IR is worse still.

I will NOT game on the st50 for fear it will burn in. It's bad enough that I moved it to my bedroom and went another route for gaming and things with letterboxing (projection)

Panny has been getting worse and worse on almost every aspect of the TVs besides picture quality. I see no reason why 2013 will improve IR. It's my opinion that whatever panny is doing to create such bright punchy images is having an adverse affect on IR and 3d performance.
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post #6 of 47 Old 12-31-2012, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe52985 View Post

I have been a huge plasma proponent. I own a tcp42s2 that has been rock solid. No IR, decent blacks, great motion. A hitachi before that. Another great tv.
My st30 from '11 was a 50 inch. Dim, bad 3d, horrible ir and ended up warranted for a bad panel.
I was given an st50 as a replacement! Very bright, awesome contrast. Great blacks. Still bad 3d, maybe worse. IR is worse still.
I will NOT game on the st50 for fear it will burn in. It's bad enough that I moved it to my bedroom and went another route for gaming and things with letterboxing (projection)
Panny has been getting worse and worse on almost every aspect of the TVs besides picture quality. I see no reason why 2013 will improve IR. It's my opinion that whatever panny is doing to create such bright punchy images is having an adverse affect on IR and 3d performance.
No IR issues on my VT50.
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post #7 of 47 Old 12-31-2012, 11:36 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a samsung plasma from ages ago and never got burn in on that. Is samsung a better bet to not get burn in?
I was hoping panny would use the kuro tech they bought but I guess they are just going to sit on it.
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post #8 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 04:17 AM
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Another anti panssonic rant i question if you even know how to access 3d if you classify it as horrible. As far as the st30 goes it is not dim i have no ir and the 3d is excellent.

To the op i still recommend against plasma for full time gaming

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post #9 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 04:40 AM
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Love my ST50 and agree with chunon. Plasma is not for gaming. Get a 2012 LED.

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post #10 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Another anti panssonic rant i question if you even know how to access 3d if you classify it as horrible. As far as the st30 goes it is not dim i have no ir and the 3d is excellent.
To the op i still recommend against plasma for full time gaming

I wouldn't call the fact that I have 2 Panasonic plasma that I love an anti Panasonic rant.

The st30 is not bright in any sort of accurate mode, not by any means. 18ftl or so is fine for a dark room but not a living room, where these are meant to be.

I don't know how to access 3d? Are you kidding me? Crosstalk on the st series has gone from bad to worse this year. Unless your watching a bluray and have the option to turn on 48hz.

I know IR varies from set to set, but in my experience, after the 2010 model year, the panel drive they are using is (or it could be something else) causing IR and burn in to be a concern again. No one can argue that.
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post #11 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by joe52985 View Post

I wouldn't call the fact that I have 2 Panasonic plasma that I love an anti Panasonic rant.
The st30 is not bright in any sort of accurate mode, not by any means. 18ftl or so is fine for a dark room but not a living room, where these are meant to be.
I don't know how to access 3d? Are you kidding me? Crosstalk on the st series has gone from bad to worse this year. Unless your watching a bluray and have the option to turn on 48hz.
I know IR varies from set to set, but in my experience, after the 2010 model year, the panel drive they are using is (or it could be something else) causing IR and burn in to be a concern again. No one can argue that.

19ftl ? then it is not calibrated properly, assuming Cinema ? Calibrated in Custom mode I get 41ftl and it is accurate and pro calibrated, I get 31ftl in Cinema plenty bright enough. Maybe crosstalk is worse on the ST50 but it is non existent on my ST30. You love your Panasonics ? Not how your post reads at all. But I've owned 3 pannys 2008, 2010 and a 2011 model not once have I had an IR problem, and there are tons of people that have no IR problems with the 2012 models. Yes some folks do have issues, luck of the draw I guess.

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post #12 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 07:34 AM
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Maybe my st30 was a dud beyond the panel issue that cropped up. I love the way my st50 looks, best looking TV I've had, and I should have said that, get carried away sometimes. Was a fan of the st30 too. But beyond picture quality I sorta fell out of love with panny.

I watch one episode of modern family and have an abc logo for and hour and a half, though. My luck. smile.gif
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post #13 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by joe52985 View Post

Maybe my st30 was a dud beyond the panel issue that cropped up. I love the way my st50 looks, best looking TV I've had, and I should have said that, get carried away sometimes. Was a fan of the st30 too. But beyond picture quality I sorta fell out of love with panny.
I watch one episode of modern family and have an abc logo for and hour and a half, though. My luck. smile.gif

I'd say your panel is out of spec. We often watch two episodes of Modern Family on the GT50 and that ABC logo disappears within a few minutes when we watch something else afterwards. I also watch an hour of local ABC news every morning and every evening and that pesky logo still disappears right away after switching to something else. I watch several hours of Speed Channel on most weekends and the after-image of their bright little Fox Sports/Speed logo in the upper right corner disappears very quickly after changing channels. I use Custom mode with Contrast at 85% BTW.

I also watch an hour or two of KTLA news every day and their logo is a little brighter and surrounded by a thin lined box and that one takes longer to go away than the ABC logo does.

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post #14 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 07:56 AM
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No worries and i can only go on my own experience with pannys i know the st50 is a big step forward enjoy

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post #15 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

19ftl ? then it is not calibrated properly, assuming Cinema ? Calibrated in Custom mode I get 41ftl and it is accurate and pro calibrated, I get 31ftl in Cinema plenty bright enough. Maybe crosstalk is worse on the ST50 but it is non existent on my ST30. You love your Panasonics ? Not how your post reads at all. But I've owned 3 pannys 2008, 2010 and a 2011 model not once have I had an IR problem, and there are tons of people that have no IR problems with the 2012 models. Yes some folks do have issues, luck of the draw I guess.

No.

Yes the TV is really about 18-20fl when being taxed fully. 42fl is ONLY when you measure a 1% window. Meaning when only 1% of the TV is illuminated it hits 42fl. I wish more people knew what the numbers represent that get repeated.

Most of the shootout numbers are not useful... Marketing. An example... the vt50 color accuracy charts produced do not represent real world viewing. They are measuring them outside of the abl with tiny 1% windows, this gives you pretty charts. But it really tells you nothing of how the TV performs with real world material when the abl is active. Really there should be another test showing if there is linearity between the abl and color accuracy with different levels of stimulation while the abl is being taxed.

Another example... Anyone who has a lot of experience working with these tv's will tell you the e8000 is actually brighter visually than the vt50 when you set peak white using a 1% or 10% window. Which one can be set physically the brightest? Unknown to me never tested. But using equal methods they don't perform the same.

Basically what I'm saying is looking at calibration data that was measured without the abl being heavily engaged doesn't tell you much. You rarely watch TV with the abl not engaged heavily. In theory the vt50 should track color the same regardless of window size. Things get complicated to measure when you factor in the abl.

With all of that said... The vt50 is good.

P.s. I have a 65" vt50 for sale for a good deal in classifieds.

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post #16 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 08:48 AM
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I didnt ask for your opinion ill take the word of chad over yours ultimately it only matters whether i find the picture bright enough

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post #17 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 09:02 AM
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I gave facts not opinions. Also if you read the shootout numbers you'll see they did provide full screen peak white numbers. I could care less what you think is bright enough, that's not on the table here. You should know better what the numbers represent you post.

http://www value electronics com/images/pdf/Shootout%202012%20contrast%20ratio.pdf

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post #18 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

I gave facts not opinions. Also if you read the shootout numbers you'll see they did provide full screen peak white numbers.
http://www **************** com/images/pdf/Shootout%202012%20contrast%20ratio.pdf

That's fine but 1% windows were not used during my calibration.

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post #19 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

That's fine but 1% windows were not used during my calibration.

And this matters why? I used 1% as an example as its used frequently and your 42fl number represents measuring a small window.

I assume your vt50 isn't magical. You have the same limitations. It's not going to do any better than 20fl with full screen white. The VT50 is just not a TV for a very bright room. This is why mine is for sale.

I have made my set peak higher than 42fl in mid panel brightness (47fl). I have also experimented with patterns from 1 to 15% in size. As well with different gamma curves... You do get different results, all with different trade offs. This is all exciting, but it doesn't change the peak full white the TV is capable of... This is approx 18-20fl.

Instead of being so defensive you could have learned something here... I'd be shocked if chad disagreed with anything I said earlier.

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post #20 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

And this matters why? I used 1% as an example as its used frequently.
Your vt50 isn't magical. You have the same limitations. It's not going to do any better than 20fl with full screen white.
I have made my set peak higher than 42fl in mid panel brightness (47fl). I have also experimented with patterns from 1 to 15% in size. As well with different gamma curves... You do get different results, all with different trade offs. This is all exciting, but it doesn't change the peak full white the TV is capable of... This is approx 18-20fl.
Instead of being so defensive you could have learned something here... I'd be shocked if chad disagreed with anything I said earlier.

You specifically challenged what i posted, more accurate "lectured" me. I frankly don't care what the peak white level is for the material I watch I find it more than sufficient, in fact the best plasma I have owned. Did I say 41ftl was the peak white level anywhere ? I understand ABL and I know it impacts light output etc. But I don't watch tv with full screen white when is that even a practical consideration during real world viewing ? Enough said moving on now

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post #21 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

You specifically challenged what i posted, more accurate "lectured" me. I frankly don't care what the peak white level is for the material I watch I find it more than sufficient, in fact the best plasma I have owned. Did I say 41ftl was the peak white level anywhere ? I understand ABL and I know it impacts light output etc. But I don't watch tv with full screen white when is that even a practical consideration during real world viewing ? Enough said moving on now

Lots of scenes hit the abl hard. Hockey has to be the worst. I see it now watching caddy shack with all of these daytime shots... In my house If I didn't have my blinds closed this would be difficult to watch. Wife and I are done with the blinds being closed all the time.

Sure we can digress. My point was just to open up some eyes... Let people think a bit more for themselves or ask questions about the numbers. Saying the TV can output 42fl is misleading... And the ABL has a huge effect on everything PQ wise.

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post #22 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 10:02 AM
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Bottom line it is sufficient for me and would be so for alot of other folks im not trying to mislead anyone just trying to relay my own experiences you may diagree and perhaps it doesnt work for you
And your fact about the ve shootout being done with 1 percent windows is false confirmed with someone who knows
The original premise of this thread was whether plasmas are good for gaming i again say no

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post #23 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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What is closer to a plasma in terms of picture quality? LED or LCD. I know I cant afford an OLED.
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post #24 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe52985 View Post

I wouldn't call the fact that I have 2 Panasonic plasma that I love an anti Panasonic rant.
The st30 is not bright in any sort of accurate mode, not by any means. 18ftl or so is fine for a dark room but not a living room, where these are meant to be.
I don't know how to access 3d? Are you kidding me? Crosstalk on the st series has gone from bad to worse this year. Unless your watching a bluray and have the option to turn on 48hz.
I know IR varies from set to set, but in my experience, after the 2010 model year, the panel drive they are using is (or it could be something else) causing IR and burn in to be a concern again. No one can argue that.

I'm still debating whether or not to exchange my ST50 for the Samsung E8000 because of the 3D - but its actually pretty good on all sources (Bluray or Half SBS mkv) - just make sure theres no overscan from the source (pc for me) and set to 1:1 pixel mapping (Size 2) - and its as perfect as it can get on that tv
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post #25 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 11:22 AM
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Bottom line it is sufficient for me and would be so for alot of other folks im not trying to mislead anyone just trying to relay my own experiences you may diagree and perhaps it doesnt work for you
And your fact about the ve shootout being done with 1 percent windows is false confirmed with someone who knows
The original premise of this thread was whether plasmas are good for gaming i again say no

Sigh...

My point wasn't the specific size window used in the shootout... It was that the peak white you mentioned (42fl) and color tracking was measured outside the abl using small windows. Who cares if it was 1% or 5%. You obviously don't get what it is I'm saying... I'm 99% sure they used window sizes which complimented the vt50 calibration report the best. But that's also my point here.... APL Color tracking patterns of any window size should all track the same right?. But do they? ... With LCD all of these measurements are pretty straight forward, but its just not the case with plasma.

Yes I agree VT50 is not for serious gamers. It's for movies only. Unless you don't care if it gets damaged from uneven wearing. Some games are better than others.

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post #26 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 11:29 AM
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They are measuring them outside of the abl with tiny 1% windows,

If this is in regards to the VE Shootout, 1% is Absolutely Not True! Need to get that out of the way before it spreads..

10-11% sized windowed patterns were used.

I do understand what you are saying in the above posts.. CRT's have this behavioral (similar) but to a lesser extent..

There have been good discussions about this and here in the recent one (with data): http://www.avsforum.com/t/1446386/abl-effects-measured-for-comparison

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post #27 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 11:30 AM
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Siggy,

I get what you are saying but that doesnt make it applicable for me or anyone else you dont consider your vt50 performance satisfactory i consider the performance on my plasma to be good to great depending on the source material in the end your opinion is no more important than mine and it is my set not yours

Youre obviously disastified with plasma technology i get that but youre not the one and only source for info around here

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post #28 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 11:36 AM
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Plasmas are not for everyone, DLP are not, LCD etc... No Display or tech is perfect.

Hockey (sport) is interesting, It's acceptable to me on my Pioneer 9G Monitors, the Panasonics.. well, I don't want hockey (sport) anyways.. Usually for movies and hockey scenes, the behavior is known and dealt with during the process.

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post #29 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
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If this is in regards to the VE Shootout, 1% is Absolutely Not True! Need to get that out of the way before it spreads..
10-11% sized windowed patterns were used.
I do understand what you are saying in the above posts.. CRT's have this behavioral (similar) but to a lesser extent..
There have been good discussions about this and here in the recent one (with data): http://www.avsforum.com/t/1446386/abl-effects-measured-for-comparison

Cool. Ya I wasn't quoting the window size used. Just the fact that if you change window sizes you end up with different readings. And different responses between Samsung and Panasonic due to the abl differences.

A lot of folks quote peak brightness all the time but never mention what size window was used. Without knowing that its difficult to compare.

I'll read that thread. I didn't know that effort had been put forth I was doing some testing of my own with my own patterns. But I gave up smile.gif It's time consuming.

-SiGGy
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post #30 of 47 Old 01-01-2013, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

Lots of scenes hit the abl hard. Hockey has to be the worst. I see it now watching caddy shack with all of these daytime shots... In my house If I didn't have my blinds closed this would be difficult to watch. Wife and I are done with the blinds being closed all the time.
Sure we can digress. My point was just to open up some eyes... Let people think a bit more for themselves or ask questions about the numbers. Saying the TV can output 42fl is misleading... And the ABL has a huge effect on everything PQ wise.
Hockey is about the only thing that hits the ABL hard. If you look at the second page of the thread turbe linked to, you'll see the average APL of various content. If anything, windows or APL patterns are a better representation of real world content. Full-field is certainly not.

FWIW, using a 14% sized window, I can get close to 50fL on my 60ST50. With a 10% window I can get just over 50fL. My previous TV (LG LH90 LCD) was calibrated to the same brightness using a full-field pattern, and my ST50 is comparable, if not brighter than my LH90 overall.
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