Are older Plasmas better for Input-Lag & response times? (with poll) - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Are older Plasmas better for Input-Lag & response times?
Ye,s in general it used to be much less of a common issue - if even at all. 7 70.00%
No, they've improved in general & they used to be even worse. 1 10.00%
They've always had roughly the same problems over the years - so not much difference. 2 20.00%
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post #1 of 21 Old 01-03-2013, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I've seen several posts from different sources that has led me to wondering this question. Older Panasonics were better etc etc..

I'm using an old standard definition 42" Hitachi PD7200 & Input-lag is next to non existent. I'm wondering if this era of TV was more built for the older 6-7 years old consoles which commonly run at 30 frames per second.

I want to upgrade my TV to a full HD/3D Samsung PS51E6500 but I'm worried that Input-Lag isn't going to be as good as on my much older TV.

Are my concerns justified? - or the ramblings of a mad man? confused.gif
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post #2 of 21 Old 01-03-2013, 05:18 PM
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We have a 5-year-old 50" Sansui Plasma (Toshiba guts, LG glass) and our daughter lives on it with her Xbox. She totally kicks butt (which pisses off all the guys LOL) and constantly gets accused of cheating. We just got the PN60E550 for the living room and I play Xbox and PS3 all day and night on it without problem. Somebody here tipped me to using PC mode instead of Game mode for better response time and it's noticeable. There is a lot less lag in PC mode.
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post #3 of 21 Old 01-04-2013, 02:44 AM
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There are no large monitors with almost no lag. We are talking an average of 2 frames of lag for larger sets and most likely no one but extremely dedicated gamers will notice this. I've never seen anything over 30 inches that doesn't have less than 1-2 frames of lag and the majority were 2 or more. For people who lag will actually affect, 1/2 a frame is about the limit and outside of fighting and rhythm games isn't really going to affect your gaming performance anyways. For people that it matters to, they end up using small 23 inch computer monitors.

I would say that if you already thought your large monitors from the past had almost no lag, then lag isn't going to affect you on a modern set even if an additional frame is added because there most definitely was lag, but you didn't even notice it. If it does affect you, wire your controller as the wireless function also adds lag and if you weren't already using a wired controller before because you didn't know or didn't realize, then lag really really has not and will not be affecting you.

I would first worry about getting your controller wired, then making sure you are in a mode on your tv that does the least amount of processing and lastly, be sure your monitor is playing games at their native resolution ie, if you play mostly 720p games, better get a 720p monitor so you aren't having to add lag to your game as the monitor upscales your 720p source to fill a 1080 monitor. Don't worry about the monitor until you are practicing for gaming tournaments and you are then forced to play on a 23 inch monitor to eradicate 1 1/2 frames of lag.
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post #4 of 21 Old 01-04-2013, 06:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steezus Christ View Post

There are no large monitors with almost no lag. We are talking an average of 2 frames of lag for larger sets and most likely no one but extremely dedicated gamers will notice this. I've never seen anything over 30 inches that doesn't have less than 1-2 frames of lag and the majority were 2 or more. For people who lag will actually affect, 1/2 a frame is about the limit and outside of fighting and rhythm games isn't really going to affect your gaming performance anyways. For people that it matters to, they end up using small 23 inch computer monitors.
I would say that if you already thought your large monitors from the past had almost no lag, then lag isn't going to affect you on a modern set even if an additional frame is added because there most definitely was lag, but you didn't even notice it. If it does affect you, wire your controller as the wireless function also adds lag and if you weren't already using a wired controller before because you didn't know or didn't realize, then lag really really has not and will not be affecting you.
I would first worry about getting your controller wired, then making sure you are in a mode on your tv that does the least amount of processing and lastly, be sure your monitor is playing games at their native resolution ie, if you play mostly 720p games, better get a 720p monitor so you aren't having to add lag to your game as the monitor upscales your 720p source to fill a 1080 monitor. Don't worry about the monitor until you are practicing for gaming tournaments and you are then forced to play on a 23 inch monitor to eradicate 1 1/2 frames of lag.

Steezus Christ, when you say "better get a TV that runs in native 720p rather than one that up scales to to 1080p". This is what worries me that I'm going to notice a difference. I play Battlefield 3 semi-competitive & it's known to have input lag issues on modern tvs & it runs at 30fps on console & 720p. That's all my tv does anyway but I'm worried that my new tv eg. The samsung PS51E6500 will add input lag while it has to upscale it.

Are there no modes on these TVs to just run in 720p in order to avoid any upscaling or added lag?
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post #5 of 21 Old 01-04-2013, 07:42 AM
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There's absolutely no noticeable input lag on my 65VT30 or my 55GT50 when playing Xbox and ps3. Xbox plays at 1080p and ps3 mostly runs at 720p. Also a 42 in hitachi is small. You wouldn't notice input lag from any new TV at this size. I don't care how dedicated of a gamer you are. Your eyes can not pick up1-2 frames of lag. Maybe 10 frames but this is the reason for game mode.

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post #6 of 21 Old 01-04-2013, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semp1 View Post

There's absolutely no noticeable input lag on my 65VT30 or my 55GT50 when playing Xbox and ps3. Xbox plays at 1080p and ps3 mostly runs at 720p. Also a 42 in hitachi is small. You wouldn't notice input lag from any new TV at this size. I don't care how dedicated of a gamer you are. Your eyes can not pick up1-2 frames of lag. Maybe 10 frames but this is the reason for game mode.

Funnily enough one of the first questions I asked on one of the forums was is it worth making the switch regards size as my primary concern had been the bigger the screen potentialy the more input-lag etc. If someone had said at any point that going from 42" on an old low def plasma up to a hi def new 51" would have been a real problem, Then I'd certainly has taken notice & seriously considered sticking with 42".

proof is going to be in the pudding when i sit down to play it. I'm a console fps equilvilent of the devoted beat-em up consolers that you see obsessing about any delay between pad & screen.

meant to say regards a previous comment, i dont even know if you can hardwire a ps3 dualshock beyond using the USB cable.
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post #7 of 21 Old 01-04-2013, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonear View Post

Funnily enough one of the first questions I asked on one of the forums was is it worth making the switch regards size as my primary concern had been the bigger the screen potentialy the more input-lag etc. If someone had said at any point that going from 42" on an old low def plasma up to a hi def new 51" would have been a real problem, Then I'd certainly has taken notice & seriously considered sticking with 42".
proof is going to be in the pudding when i sit down to play it. I'm a console fps equilvilent of the devoted beat-em up consolers that you see obsessing about any delay between pad & screen.
meant to say regards a previous comment, i dont even know if you can hardwire a ps3 dualshock beyond using the USB cable.
52 inches is still not big. You will not notice any more input lag then you have ever had. "Hard wiring" a controller has nothing to do with the input lag of the screen.

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post #8 of 21 Old 01-04-2013, 02:29 PM
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It is not your eyes that will notice the input lag, it is the reaction and timing of your inputs. That is why with FPS games, a few frames of lag isn't going to cause much of a difference. It is fighting games running at 60fps, which most do, that will cause you to miss necessary reactions.

There is also no way to output a 720 signal at a 720 res on a 1080 monitor using consoles that I know of.

Wireless adds about 5ms of lag. Not much, just that it can add up when stacked on all the other variables. What really matters is random interference, especially in a city. That can cause all kinds of problems. Tournament players wire their controllers.

Lastly, again, you might think there is no perceptible lag on your large monitors, but when you test it, you will see it is absolutely 100% there. It just doesn't affect you personally, which does not mean it isn't there. The size does not matter beyond going above about 32 inches, they all have 1-2 frames of lag and yes, the newest generation of monitors seems to have increased the lag by 1 frame. Some much older plasmas where definitely as low as 1 frame.
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post #9 of 21 Old 01-04-2013, 06:31 PM
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I notice a lot more input lag when playing cs:go on my 60gt50 than I did with my 46g10. I use a mouse so it's quite noticeable.
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post #10 of 21 Old 01-05-2013, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by altaguy View Post

I notice a lot more input lag when playing cs:go on my 60gt50 than I did with my 46g10. I use a mouse so it's quite noticeable.

Have you tried Game Mode? I've always wondered if that setting was totally bs or if it actually helped with input lag... maybe you could enlighten us, as you seem to actually be able to notice the difference?
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post #11 of 21 Old 01-05-2013, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moshock View Post

Have you tried Game Mode? I've always wondered if that setting was totally bs or if it actually helped with input lag... maybe you could enlighten us, as you seem to actually be able to notice the difference?
No game mode is specifically made to have less input lag. I don't know if its as noticeable on my plasma but with my 60 in Sony that I used to have It was crazy how much lag there was unless I used game mode. On my 65 and 55 in Panasonics the lag is unnoticeable no matter what either way.

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post #12 of 21 Old 01-06-2013, 12:54 PM
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Can anyone recommend a TV that has less than a frame of input lag? 50" +
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post #13 of 21 Old 01-06-2013, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theaero View Post

Can anyone recommend a TV that has less than a frame of input lag? 50" +

from the lag thread found here http://www.avsforum.com/t/1166196/the-official-plasma-input-lag-thread/510



This was a key review amongst the ones I found online:-

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ps60e6500-ps51e6500-201207262022.htm

In particular when they said:-

"Console Gaming

Although the PS60E6500 has a dedicated “Game Mode” buried in the menu, ignore it. When a 60hz signal is input, there’s a semi-hidden “PC” mode which has even lower input lag, owed to the fact that it takes RGB video from the video game console, and sends it straight to the panel for display. Accordingly, nearly all of the video processing features are disabled. Because this mode works with RGB, [Colour] is locked out (because there’s no use for this control in RGB mode), as is [Colour Space]. You can still use 2-point Greyscale correction, though.
It’s accessed by pressing the SOURCE button, highlighting the HDMI input that your games console is connected to, pressing TOOLS, and changing the label to “PC”. In this setup, input lag was only 16ms compared to a CRT display, making the Samsung PS60E6500 one of the fastest TVs for gaming we’ve tested. Couple this with an uncanny ability to avoid image retention, coupled with the usual picture quality and motion clarity inherent to Plasma technology, and we’re left with a video gamer’s dream.
The input labelling trick works with all of the HDMI inputs, not just HDMI1 as was the case with some older Samsung plasmas. If you run all of your devices through an AV receiver into a single TV input, for convenience’s sake, it’s best to connect the console directly to one of the TV’s three HDMI inputs, to avoid the “PC mode” becoming active with non-gaming 60hz signals such as US DVDs or Blu-ray material that isn’t 24p. (You should do this anyway, in case your receiver is adding input lag)."
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post #14 of 21 Old 01-11-2013, 04:32 AM
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All the samsung D and E Plasma models have 16-20ms as far as I'm aware. The ultimate gaming TV is the Sony 40V4000 with around 10ms but it's getting old.

Panasonic 50UT50 & Sony 40V4000 / Sony DAV-DZ260 / PS3 / 4.97 KD ratio.
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post #15 of 21 Old 01-11-2013, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Can now totally vouch for the Samsung PS51E6500 (especially after trying 'PC' mode last night.

The untampered image looked very natural unprocessed & response felt immediate. I'm one very happy chappy regards console gaming on this TV. Topped the leaderboard several times over on Battlefield 3 & Far Cry 3 looked amazing on co-op with some buddies as well smile.gif
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post #16 of 21 Old 02-14-2013, 04:50 PM
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Hi all my samsung PS51E6500 arrived and was setup on tuesday. Picture colour etc all seem great as do the features... Was worried about bright lit room etc but its fantastic! Only problem i have is the whole Image Retention and Burn in. I have noticed that after watching sky news for 16 minutes when i changed the chanel i could very very faintly make out the bar from sky news (it is only faintly visible on light images/ backgrounds), however after changing the channel it took it about 15 minutes to totally dissapear.
Now i know im a stresser so maybe im looking for the I/R & Burn in. And after going from an LCD to Plasma im maybe overly worried that the I/R and burn in will become more obvious if i watched sky news for an hour!
Iv only had the tv for 2 days approx 18 hours veiwing time... Im hoping someone can shed some light on this please;
-But is this common?
-Will this just be something that will happen for the 1st 100hours or so?
- is there anthing i can do?
- will this IR get worse to the extent that my screen will be damaged?
Thanks in advance!
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post #17 of 21 Old 02-14-2013, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ME55Y View Post

Hi all my samsung PS51E6500 arrived and was setup on tuesday. Picture colour etc all seem great as do the features... Was worried about bright lit room etc but its fantastic! Only problem i have is the whole Image Retention and Burn in. I have noticed that after watching sky news for 16 minutes when i changed the chanel i could very very faintly make out the bar from sky news (it is only faintly visible on light images/ backgrounds), however after changing the channel it took it about 15 minutes to totally dissapear.
Now i know im a stresser so maybe im looking for the I/R & Burn in. And after going from an LCD to Plasma im maybe overly worried that the I/R and burn in will become more obvious if i watched sky news for an hour!
Iv only had the tv for 2 days approx 18 hours veiwing time... Im hoping someone can shed some light on this please;
-But is this common?
-Will this just be something that will happen for the 1st 100hours or so?
- is there anthing i can do?
- will this IR get worse to the extent that my screen will be damaged?
Thanks in advance!

I would say it's perfectly normal, and nothing to really worry about. In the early life of the set you're going to want to try and limit watching static content for the first 100 hours or so. If you can't really do that then you can use a lower contrast setting and you would be fine too. You won't cause permanent damage, and after an hour you wouldn't necessarily have IR that would have been all that much worse. The 2012 Panny plasmas only take seconds to get IR. Take a bright screen with pronounced edges like the Netflix menu, as soon as you fade to black you will see a faint image of the entire menu. It's completely gone in a few minutes, but it's most definitely inherent to the technology. As long as you don't abuse the display you will be fine, but be aware you're even more susceptible to stubborn IR in the first 100 hours or so.
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post #18 of 21 Old 02-14-2013, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semp1 View Post

There's absolutely no noticeable input lag on my 65VT30 or my 55GT50 when playing Xbox and ps3. Xbox plays at 1080p and ps3 mostly runs at 720p. Also a 42 in hitachi is small. You wouldn't notice input lag from any new TV at this size. I don't care how dedicated of a gamer you are. Your eyes can not pick up1-2 frames of lag. Maybe 10 frames but this is the reason for game mode.

Well, 10 frames would be the equivalent of 166ms of lag, and would be noticeable by almost anyone. The average person can have up to 90-100ms (6 frames) of lag and not notice any input delay, but some people can be more hypersensitive to it. There's more factors than just the input lag on your monitor/TV though, you have to account for all the input delay from processing, whether you're playing on a console or a PC. Then of course, your internet latency also has to be at least as low as your total input lag to get any online advantage, not counting server conditions. Personally, I think the entire input lag debate is completely misinterpreted.
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post #19 of 21 Old 02-14-2013, 06:35 PM
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Have a look at Panasonic plasma monitors, you get a panel without the extra video processing

42PF50U / 42BT300U / 50PF50U / 60PF50U / 65PF50U

I own the 50PH9UK (1366x768) and it's great for twitch gaming like CS 1.6, before this I used a trinitron at 120hz
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post #20 of 21 Old 02-15-2013, 07:47 AM
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Thanks jspectre88,

Youve given me a peice of mind. Im trying to maximise each channels but there are still the odd channel that has static, either logos text bars etc, would you be very confident that watching these chanels for maybe an hour and the changing it for 15-20 seconds will not cause permanent damage? Im really worreid about this whole plasma burn in and IR
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post #21 of 21 Old 02-16-2013, 04:28 PM
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Hi guys,

Got an additional cable fitted from my dish today to give me freesat on the tv. All connected and tuned perfectly. However after flicking through the channels on freesat i selected my ext which is my skybox (connected via scart) and in the background very faintly i can see the news scrolls from the freesat channel!! It is NOT Image retention or Burn in because the scroll bar is running. Iv disconnected the freesat cable and its all back to normal. Its as though my Freesat needs turning off ?Anyone else having this issue?? Or if youve had it any idea how to sort this out?
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