Samsung F8500 - new industry standard? [please use links to newer thread] - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Pinger View Post

If it blows the Kuro away in brightness and contrast the blacks will just look that much blacker... For me that would be game, set, match wink.gif
Barring of course any drawbacks such as excessive buzzing or something unforeseen along those lines...

Bingo!
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post #542 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 02:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Guaranteed it will beat the pants of the Kuro in terms of peak luminance values. Full screen brightness should put the Kuro to shame! smile.gif

Even if the MLL comes in slightly worse than the Kuro, the perceived CR should be greater on the 8500 due to the greatly increased brightness.
Except those who watch in the dark will have to sear their eyes to enjoy the deeper black perception. ;(
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post #543 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 02:53 PM
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How does increased brightness increase contrast ratio is the FL remains constant? Whites coming through better? Traditionally plasmas have limited their whites more compared to LED for example.

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post #544 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 03:37 PM
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Contrast ratio is simply:

max brightness / minimum luminance

That's the formula period.

If you increase the numerator or you decrease the denominator, you get a higher contrast ratio.

Period.

No magic. No other things to think about.

(For what it's worth, most LCDs on the market do not match the CR of the best plasmas because you cannot realistically use a brightness over a certain level and their black floor, aka minimum luminance is just too high. The exceptions to this rule use LCD brightness -- which again is "capped" by the fact that over a certain level the brightness is beyond useless, it's both detrimental to the picture and literally blinding. The excitement around the F8500 is that with brightness anywhere near the "LCD cap" and a minimum level anywhere near the "best in breed" plasma level, you'd have a CR that's in league with best-of-breed displays like the Sharp Elite, but ideally without any of its weaknesses, including its high price and apparent discontinuedness).
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There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #545 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 05:46 PM
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Paul's has the PN64F8500 In Stock for $3699.99 with free white glove, for anyone still looking.

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post #546 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 06:34 PM
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So I just returned from a two hour stint at my local RC Willey here in Sacramento playing around with the new 64F8500 plasma, which by the way, was located well within eye shot of last year's Panasonic 65VT50. Knowing full well that the showroom enviornment at RC Willey is far from good to really judge the picture quality of any TV, I came away from my two hour viewing of the F8500 unimpressed. What really shocked me was how well last years VT50 looked in comparison. Again, neither set was professionally ISF calibrated, nor was the lighting conditions no where near the best, but having said that, besides the great physical look of the frame and stand of the F8500, I dont think the ZT60, or maybe even the VT60 has anything to worry about. I was viewing a Directv HD feed of the same Golf Channel and HBO stations. I did not see Blu-Ray source material. In conclusion, unless the F8500 has the ability to totally transform the picture quality through ISF calibration, the out of box picture settings were nothing special. The bells and whistles and procesing speed are impressive, but picture qulaity does not come close to a new reference standard.
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post #547 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 07:03 PM
 
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^I'm glad I haven't done anything rash in the last few days. wink.gif Still waiting for some kind of owner review/1st impression.
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post #548 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 07:17 PM
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post #549 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrollens View Post

So I just returned from a two hour stint at my local RC Willey here in Sacramento playing around with the new 64F8500 plasma, which by the way, was located well within eye shot of last year's Panasonic 65VT50. Knowing full well that the showroom enviornment at RC Willey is far from good to really judge the picture quality of any TV, I came away from my two hour viewing of the F8500 unimpressed. What really shocked me was how well last years VT50 looked in comparison. Again, neither set was professionally ISF calibrated, nor was the lighting conditions no where near the best, but having said that, besides the great physical look of the frame and stand of the F8500, I dont think the ZT60, or maybe even the VT60 has anything to worry about. I was viewing a Directv HD feed of the same Golf Channel and HBO stations. I did not see Blu-Ray source material. In conclusion, unless the F8500 has the ability to totally transform the picture quality through ISF calibration, the out of box picture settings were nothing special. The bells and whistles and procesing speed are impressive, but picture qulaity does not come close to a new reference standard.

NOT what i wanted to hear!! but thanks for taking the time to check it out. how does it compare to e7000 pq wise? hope i don't regret trading in for twice the price!

Samsung PN51F8500. Marantz SR5008. Oppo BDP 103D. Sony BDP S5100. EMP Tek E55TIB LR, E5CIB, E55WIB. Sennheiser Momentum. Sennheiser 598.
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post #550 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 07:18 PM
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Can't wait for play time !!

Do you still use Chad B?
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post #551 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Except those who watch in the dark will have to sear their eyes to enjoy the deeper black perception. ;(

Oh c'mon, if you can't imagine a plasma not hampered by an ABL, that is able to convey bright outdoor scenes in a more convincing manner than any prior plasma, what more can I say?

Vinnie, you'll never give up your Kuro! I appreciate your loyalty. biggrin.gif
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post #552 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 07:22 PM
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'rrollens' unless you asked for the remote and checked the picture settings
particularity if Samsung is still including that damn 'cell light' adjustment
your post is not worth a grain of salt.

.
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post #553 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrollens View Post

So I just returned from a two hour stint at my local RC Willey here in Sacramento playing around with the new 64F8500 plasma, which by the way, was located well within eye shot of last year's Panasonic 65VT50. Knowing full well that the showroom enviornment at RC Willey is far from good to really judge the picture quality of any TV, I came away from my two hour viewing of the F8500 unimpressed. What really shocked me was how well last years VT50 looked in comparison. Again, neither set was professionally ISF calibrated, nor was the lighting conditions no where near the best, but having said that, besides the great physical look of the frame and stand of the F8500, I dont think the ZT60, or maybe even the VT60 has anything to worry about. I was viewing a Directv HD feed of the same Golf Channel and HBO stations. I did not see Blu-Ray source material. In conclusion, unless the F8500 has the ability to totally transform the picture quality through ISF calibration, the out of box picture settings were nothing special. The bells and whistles and procesing speed are impressive, but picture qulaity does not come close to a new reference standard.

Hard to draw any conclusions from a display where no adjustments were made and in an environment 'far from good to really judge the PQ of any TV'. I'll wait for more observations from displays where adjustments were made and where the ambient lighting environments were better controlled.
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post #554 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 07:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Oh c'mon, if you can't imagine a plasma not hampered by an ABL, that is able to convey bright outdoor scenes in a more convincing manner than any prior plasma, what more can I say?

Vinnie, you'll never give up your Kuro! I appreciate your loyalty. biggrin.gif
You'd think I was enjoined @ the hip. eek.gif No, but really, that's just not an area that has been at the top of my list of priorities (what you don't know can't be too painful to you ;0).
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post #555 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

'rrollens' unless you asked for the remote and checked the picture settings
particularity if Samsung is still including that damn 'cell light' adjustment
your post is not worth a grain of salt.

.

His is the first, and only, first-hand account of PQ on a production unit. I would say that it is worth far more than anything you have to say.

Though I am an employee of Magnolia Home Theater, the views and opinions I express on this forum are those of my own and not my employer.
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post #556 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

You'd think I was enjoined @ the hip. eek.gif No, but really, that's just not an area that has been at the top of my list of priorities (what you don't know can't be too painful to you ;0).

It must be a bear lugging that thing around with you. biggrin.gif
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post #557 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Contrast ratio is simply:

max brightness / minimum luminance

That's the formula period.

If you increase the numerator or you decrease the denominator, you get a higher contrast ratio.

Period.

No magic. No other things to think about.

(For what it's worth, most LCDs on the market do not match the CR of the best plasmas because you cannot realistically use a brightness over a certain level and their black floor, aka minimum luminance is just too high. The exceptions to this rule use LCD brightness -- which again is "capped" by the fact that over a certain level the brightness is beyond useless, it's both detrimental to the picture and literally blinding. The excitement around the F8500 is that with brightness anywhere near the "LCD cap" and a minimum level anywhere near the "best in breed" plasma level, you'd have a CR that's in league with best-of-breed displays like the Sharp Elite, but ideally without any of its weaknesses, including its high price and apparent discontinuedness).

Rogo,

That is sort of what I was getting at. For example, let's say you have two different 65" displays both calibrated to 35fl. The only way in this example for one display to have a better CR would be with a lower minimum luminance.

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biggrin.gif @ Ken
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotskins View Post

Do you still use Chad B?
Almost missed this: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf8500-series-discussion-thread-no-street-price-talk wink.gif

Should have some good impressions coming shortly.
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post #559 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

biggrin.gif @ Ken
Almost missed this: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf8500-series-discussion-thread-no-street-price-talk wink.gif

Should have some good impressions coming shortly.

Awesome!
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post #560 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 09:25 PM
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I spent two hours with the remote. What I wrote is what I saw.
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post #561 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 09:37 PM
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I did spend my two hours with the 64F8500 remote in hand. I played with all the pre-set settings, and made numerous different adjustments. I did not say that this is a bad TV, it's not, in fact it is quite good. But in my opinion from what I saw today, it is a far cry from a "new industry standard" and was not any better then the VT50. This same opinion was shared by the sales guy Steve who was helping me. We will have to wait to see how if fairs in The Shootout against the VT60 and ZT60, but as someone who is in the market to buy the very best at any price, at the $4300.00 price of the F8500 at my RC Willey, the now $2400 VT50 is clearly a better deal, and may turn out to be a better TV as well. I hope other Posters on AVS who live in the Sacramento area take the time like I did and go see for yourself at the Roseville RC Willey.
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^Very disappointing. You can delete your extra posts yerself (the red X at the bottom left-hand corner of each post will do it).
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post #563 of 1868 Old 03-15-2013, 09:57 PM
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Just imagine if the ST60 has better pq then the 8500. That would be crazy. I think the Zt and VT60 will beat out the 8500 in overall PQ. But lets hope for the best!!!
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post #564 of 1868 Old 03-16-2013, 12:47 AM
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I don't believe this guy for a second. Now people think his word is gospel?

HD = Heaven
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post #565 of 1868 Old 03-16-2013, 12:56 AM
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I think the VT50 is at the point of "goodness" that nothing will be a big step over it. At least to me. Maybe I am easily pleased?
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post #566 of 1868 Old 03-16-2013, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post


That is sort of what I was getting at. For example, let's say you have two different 65" displays both calibrated to 35fl. The only way in this example for one display to have a better CR would be with a lower minimum luminance.

Absolutely David. I think the only point is that for a daytime mode, 35 ft/L is nothing to be impressed with, especially because I'm not even sure a plasma today can hold 35 ft/L without ABL partly affecting that too (on real content, let alone full-field white).

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I think the VT50 is at the point of "goodness" that nothing will be a big step over it. At least to me. Maybe I am easily pleased?

The VT50 is good. But brighter / less ABL would be better. So would less dither in shadow detail. So would an end to ever false contouring, regardless of source quality (i.e. better algorithms to make smoother gradients).

The display is good (I own one), but it's just not flawless.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #567 of 1868 Old 03-16-2013, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Absolutely David. I think the only point is that for a daytime mode, 35 ft/L is nothing to be impressed with, especially because I'm not even sure a plasma today can hold 35 ft/L without ABL partly affecting that too (on real content, let alone full-field white).
The VT50 is good. But brighter / less ABL would be better. So would less dither in shadow detail. So would an end to ever false contouring, regardless of source quality (i.e. better algorithms to make smoother gradients).

The display is good (I own one), but it's just not flawless.

Like I said, I may be easily pleased. Those flaws are minor to me. And if they fix these flaws it probably wouldnt make me want to go buy another new TV. But I understand the folks seeking or wanting perfection or as close as perfection they can get.

I remember some said the new OLEDS were not even a big step over the VT50. I am sorta of an perfectionist with audio system though, always looking to improve that!
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post #568 of 1868 Old 03-16-2013, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Like I said, I may be easily pleased. Those flaws are minor to me. And if they fix these flaws it probably wouldnt make me want to go buy another new TV. But I understand the folks seeking or wanting perfection or as close as perfection they can get.

I remember some said the new OLEDS were not even a big step over the VT50. I am sorta of an perfectionist with audio system though, always looking to improve that!

I think you must be one of the lucky souls who doesn't notice false contouring. I went a while without noticing it, but once I did, it could not be unseen and now it drives me insane.

HTPC: I3 2100, Radeon 6950.
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post #569 of 1868 Old 03-16-2013, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by rrollens View Post

So I just returned from a two hour stint at my local RC Willey here in Sacramento playing around with the new 64F8500 plasma, which by the way, was located well within eye shot of last year's Panasonic 65VT50. Knowing full well that the showroom enviornment at RC Willey is far from good to really judge the picture quality of any TV, I came away from my two hour viewing of the F8500 unimpressed. What really shocked me was how well last years VT50 looked in comparison. Again, neither set was professionally ISF calibrated, nor was the lighting conditions no where near the best, but having said that, besides the great physical look of the frame and stand of the F8500, I dont think the ZT60, or maybe even the VT60 has anything to worry about. I was viewing a Directv HD feed of the same Golf Channel and HBO stations. I did not see Blu-Ray source material. In conclusion, unless the F8500 has the ability to totally transform the picture quality through ISF calibration, the out of box picture settings were nothing special. The bells and whistles and procesing speed are impressive, but picture qulaity does not come close to a new reference standard.

Wow....this is unbelievable. I saw the f8500 at ces and while I understand it wasn't a production model, it looked awesome. I guess the production units are nothing like the unit displayed at ces. Bummer.
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post #570 of 1868 Old 03-16-2013, 07:52 AM
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Except those who watch in the dark will have to sear their eyes to enjoy the deeper black perception. ;(

Why would that be??. Not sure about you but even with my A850 I use a different mode for daytime viewing then night otherwise the display would be "searing".. During daytime I have Standard mode tweaked to my liking at at night i switch to Movie where its setup for a darker viewing environment..
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